Abusive? or did it just not work out.

[Downtown]

Based on the facts as I laid them out, do you think I was the victim of abuse/ that my ex had abusive tendencies?

Siochana (i.e., Peacemaker), I didn't respond to that question because it is clear you've known the answer, most likely for the past year. As you said, your exGF threw your clothes out the window, slapped you hard across the face on two occasions, ripped up your book, blamed every misfortune on you, lied to your friends about your beating her up, broke things in your apartment, and deliberately damaged your suits.

 

What do the things on my list make obvious? That she is nuts or that I made her nuts?

No, you are not describing behavior that is "nuts." Nor is it "crazy," "psychotic," or "insane." Those terms generally refer to dysfunctional behavior that indicates the person has lost touch with PHYSICAL reality, e.g., believing that the news anchor on TV is speaking to them personally.

 

What you are describing is a person whose emotions are so out of control they are distorting her perception of your intentions and motivations. Significantly, this occasionally occurs to all of us. At issue, then, is whether your exGF is much worse than normal and what is causing her temper tantrums and vindictiveness.

 

I’ve read the info about signs/narcissists/ BPD etc. but I’m still not sure. ...Bear in mind that alcohol was usually involved.

As long as she continues to abuse alcohol frequently, it is doubtful a professional will be willing to diagnose any personality disorders (PDs). The problem is that it is too difficult to determine which factor is the cause and which is the effect. BPD, for example, is characterized by a lack of impulse control which can result in binge spending, excessive gambling, or drug abuse. The result is that about two-thirds of female BPDers have a substance use disorder (i.e., alcohol or drug abuse) and about half of female BPDers have an alcohol abuse disorder. See Table 3. Clearly, then, having strong BPD traits often gives rise to alcohol abuse.

 

The converse also is true, however. Alcohol abusers often exhibit strong BPD traits. This is not to say that they have the permanent disorder but, rather, that they temporarily exhibit the traits until they break free of their alcohol dependency. Hence, an important issue is whether your exGF was exhibiting the abusiveness and temper tantrums before she became dependent on alcohol.

 

The therapist I saw ...was more interested in helping me move through the grieving process than classifying me as a victim of abuse.

I agree with your therapist that, although you were abused, you were not a victim. Generally, when a toxic relationship has lasted 3 years -- or 15 in my case -- both parties were willing participants. This means you both contributed to the toxicity. As you already know, your contribution was being the excessive caregiver having low personal boundaries, with the result that you were an enabler.

 

She had psychological issues.... Would you care to weigh in on the question I asked? ....Or perhaps you would need further context?

Yes, further context would be most helpful. Thanks for extending the offer. If you have time, please tell us which of the 18 Warning Signs were very strong and which were weak. It also would be helpful to know whether her temper tantrums were common occurrences before she got heavily into alcohol. If some of those warning signs seem unclear, you will find a more detailed description of them at my post in Maybe's Thread.

[siochana]

Hi Downtown,

 

 

Well played on getting the translation of my name!

 

 

Just want to clear something up. I don't think she was an abuser of alcohol. She was not a habitual drinker. We both drank and had a social life that meant having wine with dinner or meeting people for drinks but she was not an alcoholic. in fact, she used to suffer terrible hangovers on even modest amounts of booze. What I was saying was, the worse excesses of her behaviour usually occurred when she had had some alcohol, but not necessarily lots.

 

 

1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor comment or infraction;

 

 

No, that does not ring true for me.

 

 

 

 

2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"

 

 

yes. "you never tell me I'm beautiful" " You always put me second"

 

 

3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;

 

 

Yes. She was convinced I been unfaithful with an ex. took a long time to convince her otherwise. We both lived far from our families so its hard to say. As for friends, maybe a little but it doesn't ring quite true.

 

 

4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude (e.g., not appreciating all the 3-hour trips you made to see her for two years) and a double standard ;

 

 

Yes. A great deal of my anger was rooted in the fact that I rarely got the credit I felt I deserved for my acts of kindness towards here.

 

 

 

 

5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;

 

 

Yes. I was often worried that she would turn on me and was frequently in the doghouse.

 

 

 

 

6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;

 

 

Absolutely.

 

 

 

 

7. Low self esteem;

 

 

Yes, I believe so. But she was stubborn and wilful.

 

 

 

 

8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums or cold sulking that typically start in seconds and last several hours;

 

 

Yes. She totally overreacted to even minor transgressions on my part.

 

 

 

 

9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;

 

 

Yes. But I had that too. I didn't want to be alone and that is perhaps why I put up with her bull****. Yes, on the changing plans comment.

 

 

10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;

 

 

Yes, but I think she was cognisant of when she had been over the top in the past but she didn't like to admit that. Once I made reference to the fact that she had walked out on me twice. She started crying and said "But I haven't done that in over a year". I comforted her and told her it was alight.

 

 

 

 

11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);

 

 

Nope, that doesn't fit the mo.

 

 

 

 

12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;

 

 

No, she spoke well of them (him). she had left him after a 4 year relationship.

 

 

 

 

13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"

 

 

Somewhat, but its really hard to remember. We had a whirlwind romance. I don't think she mirrored really. More like she had an idea of how she should behave and how I should behave and be and she didn't like it when I diverted from the script.

 

 

 

 

14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;

 

 

Not really. She was a hard and diligent worker who got on very well in her workplaces from what I know.

 

 

 

 

15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;

 

 

Yes. A common refrain was that I wasn't doing enough to comfort her.

16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);

 

 

Yes, but we are both emigrants living far away from our homeland.

 

 

17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and

 

 

Yes, up to a point. But more specifically, she was careful to be uber polite and attentive to people and was, it seems to me, petrified that she would be anything other than little Ms perfect. People often said to me: She is just so nice!

 

 

 

 

18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence

 

 

Yes. I used to say to her " I am responsible for my actions. I am not responsible for your complete over reaction to my actions" For example, she went into a massive sulk that turned into a shouting match because I had walked into a party ahead of her. I was carrying a box of beer and basically shimmied ahead to find a spot to put it down and when I looked around she was gone. She went bananas over that.

 

 

 

 

You say I was the enabler. Is that to say, if I had been tougher with her things may have worked out differently?

[Downtown]

1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor comment or infraction;

No, that does not ring true for me.

Peacemaker, I did a poor job in explaining it but you do seem to be describing black-white thinking. See #2 and #5 below.

 

2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;"

yes. "you never tell me I'

m

beautiful" " You always put me second"

The frequent use of these all-or-nothing criticisms of you indicates that she often perceived of you in black or white terms. If she has strong BPD traits, this B-W thinking is to be expected because a BPDer has such a fragile ego and never learned how to integrate the good and bad aspects of her own personality. That is, a BPDer never realized that she is essentially a good girl who sometimes does bad things. The result is that she will be very intolerant of ambiguities, uncertainties, dualities, and other grey areas of interpersonal relationships.

 

Granted, if your exGF were a sociopath as Michelle describes, these all-or-nothing claims likely would arise from manipulation and deception, not B-W thinking. You are not describing strong traits of sociopathy, however.

 

3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members;

 

Yes. She was convinced I been unfaithful with an ex. took a long time to convince her otherwise. We both lived far from our families so its hard to say. As for friends, maybe a little but it doesn't ring quite true.

This irrational jealousy is a warning sign that she may have a strong fear of abandonment, which is one of the key defining traits for having strong BPD traits.

 

4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude ...and a double standard ;

Yes. A great deal of my anger was rooted in the fact that I rarely got the credit I felt I deserved for my acts of kindness towards here.

If she has strong BPD traits, you would find it impossible to build up a store of appreciation from which to draw during the hard times. BPDers (i.e., those with strong traits) generally are incapable of appreciating your sacrifices for very long. One reason is that they have very little sense of "object constancy." That is, they never learned that people generally have a personality that is roughly constant from day to day and week to week. The result is that a BPDer can flip in ten seconds from perceiving you as "her rescuer" to perceiving you as "her perpetrator."

 

Another reason is that a BPDer's sense of "reality" is whatever intense feeling is flooding her mind at that very moment. Those feelings are so intense that they push aside other feelings. Moreover, because a BPDer is very intolerant of experiencing strong mixed feelings, she will "split off" the conflicting feelings, putting them out of reach of her conscious mind. The result is that a BPDer can turn on you in seconds based solely on some trivial comment or minor infraction (real or misperceived).

 

5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells;

Yes. I was often worried that she would turn on me and was frequently in the doghouse.

These flips between adoring and devaluing you are another example of black-white thinking. You are describing a woman who sometimes perceived of you as "all good" and sometimes as "all bad." You're being "worried that she would turn on me" indicates you were frequently walking on eggshells to avoid triggering her anger. Significantly, this is the most common complaint given by the partners of BPDers. This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to those partners) is called Stop Walking on Eggshells.

6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later;

Absolutely.

Generally, BPDers are only interested in creating drama, not finding solutions or compromises. One reason is that they have such fragile self images that they will maintain a death grip on their false self image of always being "The Victim." To "validate" that false self image, they frequently create drama that pushes you into the role of "perpetrator." By blaming you for every misfortune, a BPDer is able to continue thinking of herself as "The Victim."

 

She can achieve the same "validation," however, by perceiving of you as "the rescuer." Hence, on increasingly rare days, a BPDer will flip to perceiving you to be the "all good" man who has come to rescue her from unhappiness. This means, of course, that she must be "The Victim" or you would not be making such a strong effort to save her. Hence, regardless of whether you play the role of perpetrator or rescuer, a BPDer is able to receive the "validation" she so badly needs. This, then, is why a BPDer will remain in a LTR with you only as long as you cooperate by playing one of those two roles.

7. Low self esteem;

Yes, I believe

so

. But she was stubborn and willful.

If I understand you correctly, her low self esteem was most evident in her great fear of abandonment (i.e., irrational jealousy) and efforts to control your behavior by throwing temper tantrums.

8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums or cold sulking that typically start in seconds and last several hours;

Yes. She totally overreacted to even minor transgressions on my part.

If she has strong BPD traits, you don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. A BPDer has been carrying enormous hurt and anger deep inside since early childhood. Consequently, you only have to say or do some minor thing that TRIGGERS a release of the anger that is always there.

 

This is one reason that a BPDer can flip from Jekyll (adoring you) to Hyde (devaluing you) in ten seconds. And, five hours later, she can flip back again just as quickly. My exW, for example, could rage for hours and then, in a few seconds, flip to wanting to jump into bed with me and have sex. She was always convinced that I "held grudges" because it could take me several days before I was willing to be intimate with her. It could take that long for me to push the ugliness and vindictiveness I had just witnessed to the back recesses of my mind.

9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans;

Yes. But I had that too. I didn't want to be alone and that is perhaps why I put up with her bull****. Yes, on the changing plans comment.

Actually, Peacemaker, you have not only the abandonment fear but also the other BPD traits as well. Indeed, every adult on the planet exhibits all nine of the BPD defining traits (which are the basis for the 18 warning signs I listed). Importantly, BPD traits are not something -- like chickenpox -- that you "have" or "don't have." Instead, they are basic human ego defenses that we all have to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether your exGF exhibits these traits. Of course she does. We all do.

 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits most of these traits at a strong and persistent level. Not having met her, I certainly do not know the answer to that question. I nonetheless believe you are capable of spotting any strong BPD traits that were occurring during your three years together. There is nothing subtle or nuanced about warning signs such as strong verbal abuse, temper tantrums, and irrational jealousy.

10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune;

Yes, but I think she was cognizant of when she had been over the top in the past but she didn't like to admit that. Once I made reference to the fact that she had walked out on me twice. She started crying and said "But I haven't done that in over a year". I comforted her and told her it was alight.

It is rare for a BPDer to have sufficient self awareness and ego strength to be willing to take responsibility for her own actions. Doing so is extremely painful because, to a BPDer, admitting to a mistake results in her feeling "all bad" because she will apply the B-W thinking to herself as well as to other people.

 

Although BPDers generally are loath to admit a mistake or wrong doing, they nonetheless do have a vague awareness that something is wrong with them -- and they live in fear that, although you may seem to love them today, you will abandon them when you discover what they really are like inside. This vague awareness of something being wrong arises from the self loathing and feelings of emptiness that the BPDer has been carrying since early childhood.

 

The result is that BPDers occasionally will exhibit "moments of clarity" wherein they will admit mistakes and promise changes. With low functioning BPDers, their pain level is so great that they may experience these moments very frequently. But you are not describing a low-functioning woman but, rather, a high functioning one. With H-F BPDers, these moments of clarity are rare.

 

My exW, for example, had these moments perhaps five times in our 15-year marriage. They occurred when I was furious because she had done some terrible things (e.g., running up charges of thousands of dollars on secret credit cards). These "moments of clarity" lasted a day or two and had absolutely no effect on her behavior thereafter. This is not to say, however, that BPDers cannot improve. A very small share of them -- I would guess 1% -- have both the self awareness and ego strength necessary for staying in therapy long enough to make a real difference.

 

11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending);

Nope, that doesn't fit the mo.

I disagree. Granted, you don't mention binge eating or spending, so my examples don't fit. You nonetheless do describe a woman who has so little control over her emotions that she can explode into a rage in just a few seconds -- based solely on a minor transgression (real or misperceived). You also describe a woman having so little impulse control that she threw your clothes out a window, slapped you hard across the face on two occasions, ripped up your book, broke things in your apartment, and soiled your suits. Hence, you are describing a woman who -- at times at least -- exhibits the impulse control of a four year old.

 

12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;

No, she spoke well of them (him). she had left him after a 4 year relationship.

If your exGF actually is a BPDer, this behavior is very surprising and unexpected. As you said, she was already bad mouthing YOU a year ago -- lying to your friends about you beating on her.

 

13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"

Somewhat, but its really hard to remember. We had a whirlwind romance. I don't think she mirrored really. More like she had an idea of how she should behave and how I should behave and be and she didn't like it when I diverted from the script.

At issue is whether you "diverted from the script" during the honeymoon period. If she really is a BPDer, she would have placed you on a pedestal and her infatuation would have convinced her that you pose no threats. At the same time, she would have enjoyed all your friends and nearly all your interests. The result is that it would have been very difficult for you to divert "from the script." During that brief period, a BPDer is so caught up in her own infatuation that she throws the script aside. As soon as the infatuation ends, however, the script returns along with her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment.

 

14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months;

Not really. She was a hard and diligent worker who got on very well in her workplaces from what I know.

The vast majority of BPDers are high functioning, which means that they get along well with business associates, casual friends, and complete strangers -- because none of those people pose a threat of abandonment or engulfment as long as they don't draw close. The result is that most BPDers can be described as "hard and diligent workers" who do very well in their workplaces. Moreover, the workplace helps to give them a sense of direction and a set of goals.

 

My exW, for example, did well in her workplace. Her lack of a sense of identity showed itself, instead, in her changing choice of hobbies and personal interests. She would spend thousands on items (e.g., piano and four sewing machines) that were almost never used.

 

15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing;

Yes. A common refrain was that I wasn't doing enough to comfort her.

If she has strong BPD traits, she never had the opportunity in early childhood to learn how to do self soothing. Her inability to regulate her own emotions results in intense feelings that overwhelm her, distorting her perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations. This may explain, then, why you frequently saw her over-reacting to your comments and actions.

 

16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away);

Yes, but we are both emigrants living far away from our homeland.

As I noted above, a HF BPDer usually does fine with casual friends and business associates -- and anyone far away. With them, there is no close relationship that can be abandoned and no intimacy that can cause the suffocating feeling of engulfment. Yet, any attempt by casual friends to draw close into a LTR will start triggering those fears of abandonment and engulfment. As you said, "Its only together that she reacted, she was the potassium and I was the water kind of thing." It is common for a BPDer to be caring and generous all day long to complete strangers and then, at night, go home to abuse the very person who loves her.

 

17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and

Yes, up to a point. But more specifically, she was careful to be uber polite and attentive to people and was, it seems to me, petrified that she would be anything other than little Ms perfect. People often said to me: She is just

so

nice!

Similarly, my exW was wonderful around strangers and business associates. She could put total strangers at ease within a few minutes. It is common for HF BPDers to exhibit such a purity of expression and warmth that strangers are quickly drawn to them. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct.

 

18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence.

Yes. I used to say to her " I am responsible for my actions. I am not responsible for your complete over reaction to my actions" For example, she went into a massive sulk that turned into a shouting match because I had walked into a party ahead of her. I was carrying a box of beer and basically shimmied ahead to find a spot to put it down and when I looked around she was gone. She went bananas over that.

Likewise, my BPDer exW would feel slighted or disrespected for no apparent reason. She would take great offense, for example, if I looked at another woman for 3/4 of a second instead of half a second -- or if I was walking two feet ahead of her on a crowded sidewalk. And she sabotaged so many vacations that I stopped taking her on expensive trips.

 

We had a 6 hour drive, for example, to meet my sister and BIL at a vacation spot located midway between our home states. On the very first day, my exW went into a childish sulk because I had asked her -- in a furniture store -- to give me some space for a few minutes to look at things by myself (instead of running to her side at every beck and call when she saw something she liked). She continued the sulk the next morning so the 3-day vacation was reduced to one day, with the four of us then driving all the way back to our respective homes.

 

You say I was the enabler. Is that to say, if I had been tougher with her things may have worked out differently?

Peacemaker, if your exGF is a BPDer, the ending likely would have been the same -- with her walking out on you. It just would have occurred sooner. Generally, excessive caregivers like you and me are LOATH to walk away from a sick loved one. What typically happens, then, is that the BPDer decides to abandon us.

 

The main reason is that, as the years go by, a BPDer becomes increasingly resentful of your inability to make her happy (an impossible goal) -- and increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging. Eventually, that fear becomes so painful that she will preemptively abandon you to prevent you from doing it to her.

 

Most BPDer relationships, however, typically last 12 to 15 years before that happens. In contrast, your relationship lasted only 3 years before she walked away. Hence, if she is a BPDer, the most likely explanation is that you started establishing personal boundaries and enforcing them. That is, you reduced your enabling behavior. A BPDer will not tolerate this. One reason is that it scares her to death because she will misperceive this boundary enforcement as a sign you are planning to leave her.

 

Another reason is that you are no longer meeting her overpowering need for validation of her false self image of being "The Victim." To meet that need, you must be willing to continue playing the roles of "Rescuer" and "Perpetrator." But, of course, those roles come to a dead stop when you establish boundaries and start enforcing them. I discuss this in greater detail at my posts in Rebel's Thread.

[bubbaganoosh]

Just a quick one that I would love feedback on.

 

 

I’m one year out since BU, about four months NC.

 

 

I still think of her daily and although the worst has passed regularly get the anger and the depression.

 

 

One thing that is weighing on my mind is whether or not she was abusive towards me. I’ve read the info about signs/narcissists/ BPD etc. but I’m still not sure. Let’s just deal with her actions and then mine. During the course of a three year relationship this is a list of her worst behaviours. Bear in mind that alcohol was usually involved

 

 

Following an argument, threw my clothes out the window of our first floor apartment.

 

 

Slapped me hard across the face on two separate occasions.

 

 

Ripped up a book I had got as a present and threw all over the garden

 

 

Packed her bags and stormed out two or three times only to return a few days later after I had accepted that it was my fault and that she should come back

 

 

Got drunk and told friends of mine I was beating her up (I wasn’t)

 

 

Broke stuff in the apartment, sprayed shaving cream on my suits

 

 

Broke up with me and then proceeded to blame me for it (even months later) what is up with that? As in I gave you so many chances, you’re arrogant, I deserve better.

 

 

Stormed out of bars and restaurants on foot of minor disagreement or for no apparent reasons at all sometimes.

 

 

Now me:

 

 

Worst offence was sending a single flirtatious text to a former colleague. She checked my phone.

 

 

Did get very angry with her on several occasions and did some shouting. Never made personal remarks to her but did was out of control verbally. I will add that it was almost always the result of her criticising me in some way and ( I know now) unacknowledged hurt about the way she had treated me on some occasions listed above.

 

 

For months I blamed myself (and hated myself) because I loved her and did not want to lose her. Even if in the end I was out of solutions as to how to fix it (it was always up to me to fix it you see)

 

 

Trouble is, in most cases she was charming and nice and considerate. She had a great brain and was good to others. She didn’t do a lot of the stuff the abuser is supposed to do.

 

So what gives? Thoughts welcome.

 

When she slapped you across the face, then IMO, that's when you should have given her the bums rush out of the house.

 

I'll bet you everything I own plus everyone else's that you were taught that you don't hit girls. Well the same holds true for women. Keep you hands to yourself because it's too easy to say I'm sorry the first time, the turn a round and do it again the second time.

 

Pretty soon it becomes common place and that's something no one should have to put up with.

 

Combine that with all the other stuff she's done and what you have is a really piss poor excuse of a woman.

 

One day, she's going to do the same thing to another guy and pay a steep price for her behavior. Granted, he'll be in jail but she'll live a day that she wont ever forget. There are men out there that will throw caution to the wind and cut loose.

 

Just be glad she's gone and if it were me, I would have nothing to do with her in any way shape or form.

[turnera]

I suppose the premise of this book, applied to my situation, is that if I had ben firmer with her the behaviour would have changed? Maybe. Hard to say.

 

She wasn't spoiled. She came from a very modest background. She had psychological issues.

Spoiled doesn't mean rich in this situation. It means being allowed to get away with things. If she doesn't meet a man who WILL stand up to her, she's going to float from disaster to disaster, never realizing her potential. Edited July 5, 2014 by turnera

[siochana]

Spoiled doesn't mean rich in this situation. It means being allowed to get away with things. If she doesn't meet a man who WILL stand up to her, she's going to float from disaster to disaster, never realizing her potential.

 

Present day me knows well that I should have stood up to her.

 

Specifically, I know I should have stood up to her in a very different way.

 

The person I was in the relationship didnt know what was going on. I literally didn't understand what was happening. I forgave when I should have meaninfully acted in a misguided attempt to play what I considered to be my proper role as a man in that relationship.

 

In other words, I didnt lack a spine; I lacked the knowledge to know what to do with it.

 

The primary trauma that I felt in this last year relates to the way, slowly, my mind began to make sense of what happened and just how wrong I had handled things.

 

Believe me, thats a much worse feeling than just having a woman leave you.

[siochana]

When she slapped you across the face, then IMO, that's when you should have given her the bums rush out of the house.

 

I'll bet you everything I own plus everyone else's that you were taught that you don't hit girls. Well the same holds true for women. Keep you hands to yourself because it's too easy to say I'm sorry the first time, the turn a round and do it again the second time.

 

Pretty soon it becomes common place and that's something no one should have to put up with.

 

Combine that with all the other stuff she's done and what you have is a really piss poor excuse of a woman.

 

One day, she's going to do the same thing to another guy and pay a steep price for her behavior. Granted, he'll be in jail but she'll live a day that she wont ever forget. There are men out there that will throw caution to the wind and cut loose.

 

Just be glad she's gone and if it were me, I would have nothing to do with her in any way shape or form.

 

Yep, I ignored red flags all over the place and self blamed.

 

To understand all is to forgive all that thats what we do with people we love. Often with disatorous consequences.

 

I know now; the tragedy for me is that i had to learn the hardest of hard ways.

[turnera]

Here's the real truth about life: We aren't born with instruction manuals. And we aren't mature enough or wise enough at first to know how to handle things. How do we get to that stage? By experiencing life and learning from our mistakes. And living enough years to see what could have gone differently in the past and resolving to do differently in the future.

 

In other words, don't beat yourself up. Life isn't about doing things right or being perfect. It's about making mistakes and learning from them.

[siochana]

Here's the real truth about life: We aren't born with instruction manuals. And we aren't mature enough or wise enough at first to know how to handle things. How do we get to that stage? By experiencing life and learning from our mistakes. And living enough years to see what could have gone differently in the past and resolving to do differently in the future.

 

In other words, don't beat yourself up. Life isn't about doing things right or being perfect. It's about making mistakes and learning from them.

 

 

Of course, my logical self knows this. My emotional self hasn't caught up yet.

 

 

Time.

[littleplanet]

Thanks LP,

 

I think you are definitely right. As much as it pains me to admit it ( because she was the first woman I was considering marrying and Im 35) we obviously werent compatible.

 

However what do you mean by " It wasnt nothing at all" in relation to the restaraunt storm outs?

 

Also, What do the things on my list make obvious? That she is nuts or that I made her nuts? I suppose what really ****s me up is thinking that I catalysed or caused the behaviour.

 

On the other hand, I never had this level of madness with other girlfriends but she was the first one I lived with and we both live far away from family so it put a real strain on things.

 

I would like to forgive her and myself but Im not there yet which is a real pain. A year later I want to be done with it and just think of her with her new boyfriend not thinking about me at all and me stuck and well, I suppose that makes me mad and sad!

 

Thanks.

 

Sorry for the delay in responding!

What I meant by the not nothing at all.....is of course, any little thing can set off a negative response.

When someone is that angry inside, it takes very little.

And of course, often enough, what they're really angry about has nothing to do with the situation at hand.

 

What I meant by your list - is that it it all adds up to a fundamental lack of respect.

 

I never really went through much of this, after I left home (and I left home young.)

The few experiences similar, were very brief, and not with anyone I'd formed a strong bond toward.

 

The thing you learn...........is that a completely different kind of woman can have completely different responses. (Unless you're stuck in a pattern of attracting the same type over and over again.)

 

But when you experience something as toxic as this......you have to care about your own self more.....and them, a whole lot less.

They are literally - not worth your effort.

 

You see, any responsible person can develope a violent dislike (for whatever reason - perhaps a very good reason - to them.)

But emphasis on responsible:

They don't stick around to abuse. They get out.

They give you that much respect.

That's the difference.

 

In other words - they have a conscience.

They know in their heart that no-one deserves that kind of treatment....

their first instinct is to create distance.

 

This debacle is not something you earned.

Whatever flaws you have - it is not your shortcomings (whatever they are) that ever justified her behaviour.

So you should make every attempt to distance yourself from that.

 

Unless this ever became a pattern....treat it as a one-off.

You may find that she never really does earn your forgiveness.

That is not necessarily a shortcoming on your part.

It can just as easily be your pride and self-respect (which are the things we use to protect ourselves from abuse.)

[siochana]

Want to write here to vent mainly and, hopefully, feel better for having done so.

 

I am not proud of how i am feeling but it is real; and I want to describe it. I will

 

1. I dont feel healed; progress is so painfully slow.

2. I feel like I still love her and miss her

3. I am so angry

4. I have revenge fantasies

5. I slipped once and sent her an abusive email. As ever, I only ever reference things that actually happened and how it made me feel. No reply obviously. Id say I am blocked though.

6. I am very lonely

7. I havent met anyone else but im trying ( just get out there and date they say, if only it were that easy)

8. I am afraid of the future.

9. I want to move toward the light but the darkness has a hold on me; its almost as if it draws me in and offers comfort.

10. I dont have the social supports that others have. My family are away and friends have their own lives to lead. Most are settled now which means they have less time for friends.

11 I am somewhat ashamed and embarrassed that the pain is still with me

12 I havent forgiven myself for what happend

13 Sometimes, I still believe that I was just as bad as her- only different. I lost my temper with her and shouted because i didnt know what i needed to say

14 I imagine her enjoying the life i set up for her ( she got a visa through me) with another man not sparing me a thought and unaware of the pain she caused me and unrepentant as to her culpability.

15 I am afraid that i am permanently damaged and that i have missed the boat in respect of finding a wife. I still dream of having a wife that is not going round the second time and does not have kids.

16 I am resentful that she might have taken that from me through my decision to throw my lot in with someone who was to throw me away a few years later.

 

I really want this to be over and worry about my health.

[Georgia2014]

It was ALL abusive. Walking out of your apartment for days then returning. She was threatening to leave you which is emotional abuse. She slapped you twice that is physical abuse. She damaged a book YOU owned once again abuse. I consider it abuse damaging the book because she was threatening you by doing that. She tried to control you. She was 100% abusive both physically and emotionally. She walked out on you in public for no reason once again emotional abuse and her way of taking control over you. Count your blessings she's with another man. I was in an abusive relationship where my ex abused me. You deserve better. SHE is a toxic person and I don't mean because of the alcohol. All though I am sure alcohol didn't help.

[siochana]

It was ALL abusive. Walking out of your apartment for days then returning. She was threatening to leave you which is emotional abuse. She slapped you twice that is physical abuse. She damaged a book YOU owned once again abuse. I consider it abuse damaging the book because she was threatening you by doing that. She tried to control you. She was 100% abusive both physically and emotionally. She walked out on you in public for no reason once again emotional abuse and her way of taking control over you. Count your blessings she's with another man. I was in an abusive relationship where my ex abused me. You deserve better. SHE is a toxic person and I don't mean because of the alcohol. All though I am sure alcohol didn't help.

 

 

You're right and the word "control" is very apt. That is exactly what she was trying to do. Thanks for reminding me why I am better off without here even if I loved her.

[bubbaganoosh]

Want to write here to vent mainly and, hopefully, feel better for having done so.

 

I am not proud of how i am feeling but it is real; and I want to describe it. I will

 

1. I dont feel healed; progress is so painfully slow.

2. I feel like I still love her and miss her

3. I am so angry

4. I have revenge fantasies

5. I slipped once and sent her an abusive email. As ever, I only ever reference things that actually happened and how it made me feel. No reply obviously. Id say I am blocked though.

6. I am very lonely

7. I havent met anyone else but im trying ( just get out there and date they say, if only it were that easy)

8. I am afraid of the future.

9. I want to move toward the light but the darkness has a hold on me; its almost as if it draws me in and offers comfort.

10. I dont have the social supports that others have. My family are away and friends have their own lives to lead. Most are settled now which means they have less time for friends.

11 I am somewhat ashamed and embarrassed that the pain is still with me

12 I havent forgiven myself for what happend

13 Sometimes, I still believe that I was just as bad as her- only different. I lost my temper with her and shouted because i didnt know what i needed to say

14 I imagine her enjoying the life i set up for her ( she got a visa through me) with another man not sparing me a thought and unaware of the pain she caused me and unrepentant as to her culpability.

15 I am afraid that i am permanently damaged and that i have missed the boat in respect of finding a wife. I still dream of having a wife that is not going round the second time and does not have kids.

16 I am resentful that she might have taken that from me through my decision to throw my lot in with someone who was to throw me away a few years later.

 

I really want this to be over and worry about my health.

 

I want to tell you about number 6 on your list. There's a huge difference between being lonely and being alone. Just because you don't have a woman in your life right now doesn't mean that it wont ever happen again. It will.

 

But what you don't want to do is have someone sharing your life just to say that, "Hey look, I have someone" and the girl that was so cruel to you is the perfect example.

 

I also think that maybe you should seek IC just to clear you head. It wont hurt to talk and this forum is a good place to vent. There are a lot of people here willing to help and have been in your situation.

 

Just one more thing. If your worried abut your help, then do what ever needs to be done and avoid this woman at all cost so you can heal. No contact in any way. Block he from all you electronics and if you see her, go the other way.

[siochana]

Thanks man.

 

 

I would like to think that the length of my recovery is a function of the nature of the relationship.

 

 

But like a classic victim, I still miss her and her good points. I'm trying to train my mind to make logic trump emotion and false reasoning.

 

 

I am solidly no contact. She has always been really disciplined in that regard. I would like to think that the reason for that is that she look back with a sense of shame about what happened, cant "own" her behaviour, and can only cope by pretending it never happened and that I don't exist.

 

 

Crazy Bi4ch.

[Arieswoman]

Siochana,

I am sorry you have suffered this way.

 

I don't think you really need anyone to tell you that she was abusive, do you?

 

You have been abused and traumatised and are suffering post-traumatic shock, which takes a while to come to terms with.

 

If you haven't already done so, please get some counselling/therapy to explore why you feel it's OK to be treated like this, what you can do about it and how to heal yourself.

 

No-one deserves to be hit - ever.

 

Good Luck.

[siochana]

Siochana,

I am sorry you have suffered this way.

 

I don't think you really need anyone to tell you that she was abusive, do you?

 

You have been abused and traumatised and are suffering post-traumatic shock, which takes a while to come to terms with.

 

If you haven't already done so, please get some counselling/therapy to explore why you feel it's OK to be treated like this, what you can do about it and how to heal yourself.

 

No-one deserves to be hit - ever.

 

Good Luck.

 

 

Thanks AW. This thread has been helpful to me and I look at the supportive posts when I am feeling low.

 

 

I have had some therapy which was very helpful in establishing that what happened, happened because I was ready to self blame and make excuses for her behaviour.

 

 

Some of my behaviour was wrong: I got angry and shouted but I realise now that, at least in part, this was a reaction to her far more abusive treatment of me.

 

 

Yep, and this is for anyone else that is going through the same thing, the strange thing is that you don't recognise the behaviour for what it is when you are in the situation quite often. But it is corroding you nonetheless almost without your knowledge. Even after the relationship ends, the narrative that allowed it to be sustained in the first place can continue for some months before you actually "realise" what happened. And then its a world of pain. The anger and depression are amplified. This is why it takes longer to get over than a normal breakup I think.

[siochana]

Update. Well, first, reasons for update:

 

1. Because its something I want to do for me.

2. Perhaps people have been following this thread and want to hear how I'm going. They may, for example, be at a different stage in a similar journey.

 

Here is how I feel:

 

1. Better, more centered, sense of self worth much repaired. But not fully healed as evidenced by;

 

2. More than occasional flashes of anger as a result of memories of the abuse/mistreatment I suffered and the inadequate/wimpish? way I responded.

 

3. I would probably have moved on further where it not for the fact that I have some other stuff on my plate mainly some uncertainty about what the future holds as a result of a looming redundancy. That has been hanging over me for about a year, Ive stuck around for the pay out, D-day is nearly upon me and I have yet to secure another job. I'll get one but its still a worry.

 

4. Infuriatingly, I have a burning desire to know what happened to her. I have absolutely no idea beyond the fact that I'm pretty sure she is in the same job, in the same city and that she has had a boyfriend for quite some time. Does she throw his clothes out the window? Does she hit him? Does she criticize him in the way she did me? Why do I care etc etc. This is quite small minded of me probably, but i want her to have suffered to. I want her to miss me; I want her to reflect and feel that in some small way, she lost someone good when she lost me.

 

5. I am not in a new relationship myself but I have a very close female friend who is very good to me.

 

Looking forward to the day when i don't think of her at all or am grateful, truly grateful, it all happened.

 

6. I am a humbler man who understands the fragility of love and relationships . I have learned about respecting myself and what I want from a relationship and what makes a good woman.

 

Peeps, if you have been badly treated by someone give yourself a break. It may take a long time to recover.

[Downtown]

Peacemaker, thanks so much for returning to give us all an update. I was wondering how you are doing. I'm glad to hear you are doing so well and have made great progress in your recovery!

[siochana]

Peacemaker, thanks so much for returning to give us all an update. I was wondering how you are doing. I'm glad to hear you are doing so well and have made great progress in your recovery!

 

 

Thanks Downtown,

 

 

Yes, progress is being made and reading posts made by yourself and others in the LS community has definitely helped.

 

 

Will stick around to answer questions, if I can, from others who have gone through similar experiences.

[siochana]

Hello all!

 

Thought I would write something in "my" thread today. Mainly just for a bit of therapy but, naturally, if people want to respond that's cool too.

 

So I am now over three years out. Am I over it? I don't think so. Am I better? Sure, but if not being over it means that you still think about it and feel some pain because of those memories than no.

 

Then again, honestly, I can't tell if its just general feelings of loneliness rather than not being over her and the abusive relationship. The fact that I haven't met anyone else is tough. Specifically, I have not had another serious relationship since. I have dated some girls but either I didn't feel enough for them or vice versa. It was wonderful to have strong feelings for someone again which I had with a colleague. Sadly though, she is already married.

 

And I suppose that is another thing: the feeling that I may have missed out on the opportunity to have a family. People think men cant miss the boat, only women. But its not true. I would like to meet a girl of child bearing age, test the relationship for a year or two and then, if it works out, have kids. But I'm almost 38 now and those women (say 28-33) well they frequently want a guy closer to their own age.

 

Not that I am meeting lots of them. I'm not. There is a world of difference between trying to get out there and meet people in your late 30s than in your late 20s or early 30s in my experience. The main issue is that all the good women appear to be taken. And my confidence to be fair probably never truly recovered.

 

Perhaps these are just barriers I am erecting, but the fact is I am trying and more frequently than not, getting knocked back. To be fair, I am probably trying to get the girls that I find attractive ( surprise, surprise there is lots of competition) but I really don't see how you can settle.

 

Regarding my ex, well something very strange and very tragic happened.

 

Her younger sibling was killed in a freak car accident. It made the news and thats how i learned about it. I was shocked obviously. I thought about what the correct thing to do was and quick to rule out making any contact with her. Instead I sent a note of condolences to her parents.

 

A friend of mine asked me if the fact that this terrible thing has happened to her mean that my anger against her was eliminated or reduced. Honestly, probably not. They are not related.

 

I know that she is still with the same guy she got with shortly after leaving me. Naturally, I wonder if she behaves towards him as she did toward me. In my darker moments, I believe they are having a great time and that she is totally different with him or he knows how to handle her or whatever. I know it shouldn't matter but my mind does do there.

 

Other aspects of my life are pretty good. But I dont have any family around me and that's hard. I battle with loneliness because of that and would like to meet someone again. Its a struggle, but what else can you do except keep trying I suppose

[Arieswoman]

Siochana,

Have you had any more therapy and has it helped you?

 

AW x

[siochana]

Siochana,

Have you had any more therapy and has it helped you?

 

AW x

 

Hi AW,

 

Actually, I did. I had four sessions earlier this year.

 

Honestly, it didn't really help ( certainly not as much as when I went the first time in the immediate aftermath)

 

I have worked out what happened and learned (I think) the lessons I need to take from it. There is still, if I'm being honest, a nagging doubt as to my own culpability in the whole thing. And its easy to miss someone you loved when she hasn't been replaced.

 

I suppose for me that's the nub of it: I have made the terrible mistake of allowing myself to be defined by it perhaps, still viewing my life as everything before and everything after the end of that relationship.

 

But, in fairness, it was always going to be hard. I remember a friend visiting in my apartment a few months ago and insisting that it must all be behind me know and I was like, "well, three years later I still come home to an empty place and that still feels bad" My life hasnt really moved on all that much, or at least that is how it feels.

 

At other occasions in your life, a few years can mark quite significant change so that when you look back it feels like a different person in a different time.

 

Alas, that is not true for me, I wish it were.

[planning4later]

She just sounds like a spoiled princess. Girls are sometimes raised to believe they can act like that because the man is supposed to be man enough to STOP her. You didn't. The more you accepted, the more outrageous she became.

 

Now let's talk about why you accepted it, and why you then chose to resort to yelling. Have you read No More Mr Nice Guy? Get it.

 

Yep. Been there. Done that.

 

I had my prize guitar smashed by ex wife. She also destroyed my CD collection, ripped up many of my books, and assaulted me a few times.

 

Her family once said that I need to be the "man of the house". Unfortunately in Ameriva you cannot be the man of the house. It would require physical restraint and potentially a counter slap or counter punch in cases of very unruly Jezebels. I've never hit a woman in my life and don't condone it, but there are some women who won't be kept in line by ANYTHING short of a beating. I know that for a fact. All you can do is leave.

 

Don't blame yourself. Any woman who has to force you to be a "man" is not a real woman and not worthy of your time.

Edited October 5, 2016 by planning4later

[benpom]

Just a quick one that I would love feedback on.

 

 

I’m one year out since BU, about four months NC.

 

 

I still think of her daily and although the worst has passed regularly get the anger and the depression.

 

 

One thing that is weighing on my mind is whether or not she was abusive towards me. I’ve read the info about signs/narcissists/ BPD etc. but I’m still not sure. Let’s just deal with her actions and then mine. During the course of a three year relationship this is a list of her worst behaviours. Bear in mind that alcohol was usually involved

 

 

Following an argument, threw my clothes out the window of our first floor apartment.

 

 

Slapped me hard across the face on two separate occasions.

 

 

Ripped up a book I had got as a present and threw all over the garden

 

 

Packed her bags and stormed out two or three times only to return a few days later after I had accepted that it was my fault and that she should come back

 

 

Got drunk and told friends of mine I was beating her up (I wasn’t)

 

 

Broke stuff in the apartment, sprayed shaving cream on my suits

 

 

Broke up with me and then proceeded to blame me for it (even months later) what is up with that? As in I gave you so many chances, you’re arrogant, I deserve better.

 

 

Stormed out of bars and restaurants on foot of minor disagreement or for no apparent reasons at all sometimes.

 

 

Now me:

 

 

Worst offence was sending a single flirtatious text to a former colleague. She checked my phone.

 

 

Did get very angry with her on several occasions and did some shouting. Never made personal remarks to her but did was out of control verbally. I will add that it was almost always the result of her criticising me in some way and ( I know now) unacknowledged hurt about the way she had treated me on some occasions listed above.

 

 

For months I blamed myself (and hated myself) because I loved her and did not want to lose her. Even if in the end I was out of solutions as to how to fix it (it was always up to me to fix it you see)

 

 

Trouble is, in most cases she was charming and nice and considerate. She had a great brain and was good to others. She didn’t do a lot of the stuff the abuser is supposed to do.

 

So what gives? Thoughts welcome.

 

It does not sound like abuse to me. But it could develop into abuse if you guys don't set firm boundaries or if one of you just don't respect boundaries.

 

By the way, I don't think she stormed off the restaurant for no reason. It's just that you don't know the reason.