So is she or isn't she? You decide...

[2sunny]

Why did she end her marriage?

[firmness]

Why did she end her marriage?

 

Because her husband cheated. Good question. There is so much more background here. She also claims to never have cheated on a boyfriend even once.

[2sunny]

It's hard to give you input when you've stated you're unwilling to ask her questions.

 

Without her perspective/information on how she feels about it - there's not much to work with.

 

I'd say since it makes you wonder - something isn't quite right...

 

But she's not really available yet because her divorce isn't final. My best idea is to back off a bit - and invest in her less - until she gets her divorce finalized.

 

Maybe make an agreement that you two are free to do as you wish until she gets it finished - and then be open in the meantime to other available women.

 

That "open time" may allow you to see what she does while not committed to you - it may motivate her to get the D finalized? - it may show you her spending time with ANY man in order to "not be alone" (this would be an unhealthy red flag for me) - it may show she NEEDS make attention? - OR it may show she is perfectly happy all on her own and isn't an attention seeker (let's hope for this one).

[Sunfire73]

If you are only looking for something casual, this is fine. When you're sure of her for something longterm, then that's when you have to define boundaries.

[firmness]

If you are only looking for something casual, this is fine. When you're sure of her for something longterm, then that's when you have to define boundaries.

 

Thanks. This is exactly where I am with her now.

 

Funny thing is that she is talking about a future together like never before. I am hanging back on those conversations. I say "That sounds like a nice thing" or "I would like that". But I usually stop there.

 

I will have to confront this at some point though.

 

My biggest dilemma seems to be this: If I present her with this - "Baby, your behavior makes me uncomfortable. I would never ask you to change. You are who you are and I love you for it. And I am getting strong signs that I cannot ignore. We both have a lot of life behind us and we both know to trust out instincts. My instincts tell me that you are either a) Needing or wanting male attention because of where you are in your life these days, or b) the type of woman who will always want or need this type of attention. My attention is obviously not enough for you. So I cannot move in with you/marry you/ commit my life to you."

 

This will essentially end my relationship with her. If I know this is coming at some point, I am being less than honest by stringing her along until we get to that point.

 

If I confront her with it now, she will do the typical American woman thing and see it as me trying to control her. That is almost a guarantee. Women cannot see male needs accurately - in fact it is perverse how far off base they seem to be most times, and it is only getting worse. So that will likely kill it right there.

 

So do you see my dilemma? If I wait to see if this gets better, I am risking sending her the signal that I do not like it, which sounds controlling. Even if this guy is not a particular threat, that is not the problem. The problem is that she would allow a guy to get that close to begin with - divorce/confusion/pain notwithstanding.

 

The only good scenario I can see is this - If I wait, and this "thing" fizzles out, and we take a long time to grow and learn about each other, and her divorce finalizes - then, we have a shot.

 

Holding out hope for this is risky. I am getting old!

[2sunny]

Why is a "still married woman" talking future with you? She is STILL married.

 

I wouldn't say a thing to her except that you're going to date other women.

 

What she does would make most men suspicious. It's just not nice of her. It's not designed to make you feel special - quite the contrary.

 

If it's this early in dating - and she's like this now - can you imagine what she will be like when she gets bored in 5-10 years?

 

I'd date a gal that makes only YOU feel special = her top priority - with no wandering eye!

 

Anything less isn't worth wasting your time on.

 

Even if she's a player - I highly doubt she's ever going to tell you.

[Sunfire73]

Didn't notice that she's still not divorced yet. I would not take her word seriously about the future! That is just so fast. You should be watching her actions instead of words. And you should be dating others so you won't be too involved with her or overthink things.

[2sunny]

How long have you dated her and was she the reason you divorced?

 

How long ago did she start her divorce?

[firmness]

How long have you dated her and was she the reason you divorced?

 

How long ago did she start her divorce?

 

We have been dating for about 6 months. She is divorcing because her ex cheated. She has been living on her own for about 2 years.

 

The challenge with dating other women is this: Every woman I have ever dated has brought up my past. "When we were dating, did you have sex with x, y, or z?" "When we started getting serious and you said you wanted to date other people, that is like cheating..."

 

Women are unreasonably harsh on men in this way. Like it or not I refuse to juggle women. I absolutely refuse. This will never ever be an issue in my relationship - ever again (it is part of what sunk my marriage).

 

I told her very clearly in the early weeks of dating that I would not juggle. If I like someone, I will focus on her and no one else. She either has to do the same willingly or not.

 

For now, she seems to be faithful, but I cannot expect her to be like a single 20-something woman either. We have to give each other a little room to breathe.

 

All suspicions aside, she is a human being going through a lot of turmoil. If I do not recognize that, then I am going down the path to selfishness, and that is risky.

[Chi townD]

Thanks. This is exactly where I am with her now.

 

Funny thing is that she is talking about a future together like never before. I am hanging back on those conversations. I say "That sounds like a nice thing" or "I would like that". But I usually stop there.

 

I will have to confront this at some point though.

 

My biggest dilemma seems to be this: If I present her with this - "Baby, your behavior makes me uncomfortable. I would never ask you to change. You are who you are and I love you for it. And I am getting strong signs that I cannot ignore. We both have a lot of life behind us and we both know to trust out instincts. My instincts tell me that you are either a) Needing or wanting male attention because of where you are in your life these days, or b) the type of woman who will always want or need this type of attention. My attention is obviously not enough for you. So I cannot move in with you/marry you/ commit my life to you."

 

This will essentially end my relationship with her. If I know this is coming at some point, I am being less than honest by stringing her along until we get to that point.

 

If I confront her with it now, she will do the typical American woman thing and see it as me trying to control her. That is almost a guarantee. Women cannot see male needs accurately - in fact it is perverse how far off base they seem to be most times, and it is only getting worse. So that will likely kill it right there.

 

So do you see my dilemma? If I wait to see if this gets better, I am risking sending her the signal that I do not like it, which sounds controlling. Even if this guy is not a particular threat, that is not the problem. The problem is that she would allow a guy to get that close to begin with - divorce/confusion/pain notwithstanding.

 

The only good scenario I can see is this - If I wait, and this "thing" fizzles out, and we take a long time to grow and learn about each other, and her divorce finalizes - then, we have a shot.

 

Holding out hope for this is risky. I am getting old!

 

 

 

 

Dude, you have questions and concerns. You are uncomfortable with what's going on with this other dude. And if there's something more to their relationship, then you have a right to know so you're not wasting anymore of your time. That's not unreasonable to ask. You deserve a woman that will dedicate herself to you 100%.

 

 

I have a feeling that if this other dude wasn't married, you would be kicked to the curb in a minute. Now, how is that fair to you? Do you deserve to feel like your second best in this relationship? Like you're a consolation prize? Is that fair to you as well?

 

 

Then, you need to talk to her. Ask her the hard questions. And if she wants to walk because you're asking questions, well.....that kinda already tells you that where you stood. How much you meant to her if she tosses you aside for asking simple questions that are troubling you.

[drifter777]

You are not married - hell, you haven't even been seeing her for all that long. Why are you putting yourself through all this? Getting all bent out of shape and dealing with all this drama is bad enough if you are married with kids and have to do it. Don't fence yourself in like this. Get out there and get with other women and enjoy your freedom!

[Try]

Funny thing is that she is talking about a future together like never before. I am hanging back on those conversations. I say "That sounds like a nice thing" or "I would like that". But I usually stop there.

 

I will have to confront this at some point though.

You do not have to confront. You have the option to communicate without confronting. When she talks about the future, you simple tell her that when she is really ready to focus on the future you would enjoy such a conversation. When she says that she is ready, tell her that her actions right now show otherwise. Then tell her that she is still sending out signals to other men that she is interested in that she is still on the market. Go on to tell her that her interaction with the neighbor clearly tell the neighbor and anyone watching that there is an interest, and that she wants to keep that option open. Point out that you are not criticizing her for it, just noticing that she does not appear ready to fully commit right now and you are OK with that for now, but do not think it wise to discuss the future until she is ready to fully commit to you. Edited July 1, 2014 by Try

[firmness]

You are not married - hell, you haven't even been seeing her for all that long. Why are you putting yourself through all this? Getting all bent out of shape and dealing with all this drama is bad enough if you are married with kids and have to do it. Don't fence yourself in like this. Get out there and get with other women and enjoy your freedom!

 

This is exactly what I would tell another man if I were dishing out the advice! So I agree.

 

On this site, this sort of post can sound ansty and needy. I have my moments, but the truth is that I am here getting perspective BEFORE i go any further. As much as I have fallen for her, I am the type who can walk away. I think she knows this.

 

Rule # 1 in my book is this - if you have suspicions, you do NOT say anything. You just pay special attention to that person. Men play all sorts of games with women, and boy oh boy do women play their games. I don't think they even realize it. It just seems to come naturally to them.

 

I am very mindful of how I act around other women so that it builds trust and makes her feel safe with me. She is not delivering on this front and I suspect it will ultimately kill our relationship. I can see and feel it already.

 

I just want to make extra sure I am not tossing out a good relationship for a gut instinct that may be a bit off.

 

Do you see the dilemma? Although others have said - and justifiably so - that I should be able to ask this question. I just cannot. Women do not work this way. If there is something, she will lie. Isn't that sort of the definition of cheating?

 

So I guess I will sit and wait and watch. As we spend more time together, the hormones will settle down, reality will creep in, and things will become clearer. I can keep my mouth shut, check in here for a reality check once in a while if something new comes up, and bide my time. She knows that marriage is completely out of the question, so there is that boundary.

 

In the meantime, she is an amazing woman and I am having the best time ever...aside from this.

[firmness]

You do not have to confront. You have the option to communicate without confronting. When she talks about the future, you simple tell her that when she is really ready to focus on the future you would enjoy such a conversation...

 

 

Wow. This is so freaking spot on it is scary. I almost said these exact words to her last night! Thanks for this. I can't help but want to know if you are male or female - not that this matters, but I am curious where this perspective comes from.

 

Thanks Try - and everyone else here - this is all solid and helpful.

[2sunny]

If you're reluctant to have an open and honest conversation with her - then you may need to rethink what you have.

 

When you ask about the wealthy dude - she shouldn't answer with evasive words.

 

When I haven't done a thing - my answer is either yes or no.

 

I do think it's inappropriate for a STILL married gal to talk about "future" stuff with another man.

 

You're not old - for you to think you don't have other options seems silly.

 

I've known a few couples in their 80's that got married!

 

Personally, I think she's involved with that guy - but that's just answering your original question.

Edited July 1, 2014 by 2sunny

[firmness]

If you're reluctant to have an open and honest conversation with her - then you may need to rethink what you have.

 

When you ask about the wealthy dude - she shouldn't answer with evasive words.

 

When I haven't done a thing - my answer is either yes or no.

 

I do think it's inappropriate for a STILL married gal to talk about "future" stuff with another man.

 

You're not old - for you to think you don't have other options seems silly.

 

I've known a few couples in their 80's that got married!

 

Personally, I think she's involved with that guy - but that's just answering your original question.

 

 

I have a significant amount of life experience. I have traveled all over the world and have dated women of just about every race, creed, and color.

 

Add to that all the posts I read here on this site and certain patterns and pictures begin to emerge.

 

One of those patterns is that a cheater will rarely confess to cheating with a simple questions. Evidence MUST be presented.

 

People lie. Men and women do this, so this is not a gender thing. But since I have never dated a man, I can only speak about women this regard - they lie rampantly. So much in fact that they cannot even identify lies when they see them. It is very sad.

 

So my choice seems to be to swear off women altogether because there are so few who are trustworthy...or to accept some lies once in a while. It just comes with the territory.

 

So therein lies my dilemma. If I ask, she will do what everyone on this site does - accuse me of being controlling, stalker-ish or insecure. I do not need to repeat the mistakes of so many other men. I learn from the pain of others.

 

So I agree- I SHOULD be able to ask this question without fear of her bolting or holding it against me - In the same way a woman SHOULD be able to go to a party alone and get totally plastered without fear of rape.

 

That is the ideal world. I do not live in that world.

[Try]

Wow. This is so freaking spot on it is scary. I almost said these exact words to her last night! Thanks for this. I can't help but want to know if you are male or female - not that this matters, but I am curious where this perspective comes from.

I am male.

[2sunny]

I never said swear off women.

 

I said date a gal that's divorced or completely available - and there are plenty of gals that are honest and worthy of trusting.

 

But this gal seems to future fake when she's not even divorced yet - yuck.

 

And she flirts heavily with a married man right in front of you - yuck again.

 

If a man did that to me if be mad enough to end it on the spot! If a gal did that to my brother I'd be asking her what the hell is she doing?

 

I know you're not going to ask her. It looks like you're just going to sit back and wait for her to take you further on an emotional ride.

 

It's going to hurt - she's a gal that seeks attention from men - at the cost of hurting your feelings.

 

Those kind of women always date such nice guys - it makes me sad for you.

[firmness]

I never said swear off women.

 

I said date a gal that's divorced or completely available - and there are plenty of gals that are honest and worthy of trusting.

 

But this gal seems to future fake when she's not even divorced yet - yuck.

 

And she flirts heavily with a married man right in front of you - yuck again.

 

If a man did that to me if be mad enough to end it on the spot! If a gal did that to my brother I'd be asking her what the hell is she doing?

 

I know you're not going to ask her. It looks like you're just going to sit back and wait for her to take you further on an emotional ride.

 

It's going to hurt - she's a gal that seeks attention from men - at the cost of hurting your feelings.

 

Those kind of women always date such nice guys - it makes me sad for you.

 

 

Damn! Thanks 2 sunny. I think I have overstated my case. The "Flirting" you talk about is not as strong as all that. These signs are very subtle. I would not put them in the "flirting" category though.

 

Obviously something is bugging me. I watch body language a lot with people. It is unfreaking-believable how much it says.

[drifter777]

This is exactly what I would tell another man if I were dishing out the advice! So I agree.

 

On this site, this sort of post can sound ansty and needy. I have my moments, but the truth is that I am here getting perspective BEFORE i go any further. As much as I have fallen for her, I am the type who can walk away. I think she knows this.

 

Rule # 1 in my book is this - if you have suspicions, you do NOT say anything. You just pay special attention to that person. Men play all sorts of games with women, and boy oh boy do women play their games. I don't think they even realize it. It just seems to come naturally to them.

 

I am very mindful of how I act around other women so that it builds trust and makes her feel safe with me. She is not delivering on this front and I suspect it will ultimately kill our relationship. I can see and feel it already.

 

I just want to make extra sure I am not tossing out a good relationship for a gut instinct that may be a bit off.

 

Do you see the dilemma? Although others have said - and justifiably so - that I should be able to ask this question. I just cannot. Women do not work this way. If there is something, she will lie. Isn't that sort of the definition of cheating?

 

So I guess I will sit and wait and watch. As we spend more time together, the hormones will settle down, reality will creep in, and things will become clearer. I can keep my mouth shut, check in here for a reality check once in a while if something new comes up, and bide my time. She knows that marriage is completely out of the question, so there is that boundary.

 

In the meantime, she is an amazing woman and I am having the best time ever...aside from this.

 

No - I don't see a dilemma at all. You are a bit bent out of shape because her boundaries with men are not what you want. Why don't you just move on? Are you looking for a failed relationship? Do you think you can make her behave the way you want her to? Do you think your values and judgement are going to change?

 

No harm, no foul. Break it off. Who needs this drama?

[Thicke2013]

My new girlfriend and I (both in our 40’s) are deeply in love and things are going really well. I just got a divorce and she is in the midst of hers. She had a rebound relationship a year ago, so that is not too much of a worry for me.

 

You stated in another post that she has lived on her own for 2 years. Why is she still married and her divorce not final? Is she dragging her feet?

 

 

 

We were in a common area of her apartment building the other day. He showed up to say hi – and when he left, she turned to watch him walk away. As he got down the hallway, he turned and waved to her and she gave a subtle little wave back. She had her back to me so I could not see the look on her face.

 

This is where you have to be clear about what is acceptable to you. Some women, my fiance' included actually like set boundaries. We were discussing it once and she said it shows that I actually care.

 

I am of the mindset that we are not married, and we each have lives and a history. We promised only that we would not sleep with other people. At this age, we both have opposite sex friendships, and I cannot ask her to change this – nor would I accept her asking me to give up my female friends.

 

Being friends with someone and checking them out as they walk away are very different things. I am certain that if I watched a woman walk away and then gave her a sly little wave when she noticed me noticing her, I would no longer be engaged.

 

 

Thanks. This is exactly where I am with her now.

 

Funny thing is that she is talking about a future together like never before. I am hanging back on those conversations. I say "That sounds like a nice thing" or "I would like that". But I usually stop there.

 

I will have to confront this at some point though.

 

My biggest dilemma seems to be this: If I present her with this - "Baby, your behavior makes me uncomfortable. I would never ask you to change. You are who you are and I love you for it. And I am getting strong signs that I cannot ignore. We both have a lot of life behind us and we both know to trust out instincts. My instincts tell me that you are either a) Needing or wanting male attention because of where you are in your life these days, or b) the type of woman who will always want or need this type of attention. My attention is obviously not enough for you. So I cannot move in with you/marry you/ commit my life to you."

 

This will essentially end my relationship with her. If I know this is coming at some point, I am being less than honest by stringing her along until we get to that point.

 

If I confront her with it now, she will do the typical American woman thing and see it as me trying to control her. That is almost a guarantee. Women cannot see male needs accurately - in fact it is perverse how far off base they seem to be most times, and it is only getting worse. So that will likely kill it right there.

 

So do you see my dilemma? If I wait to see if this gets better, I am risking sending her the signal that I do not like it, which sounds controlling. Even if this guy is not a particular threat, that is not the problem. The problem is that she would allow a guy to get that close to begin with - divorce/confusion/pain notwithstanding.

 

The only good scenario I can see is this - If I wait, and this "thing" fizzles out, and we take a long time to grow and learn about each other, and her divorce finalizes - then, we have a shot.

 

Holding out hope for this is risky. I am getting old!

 

Why do you see the only option here as confrontation? I don't get this. When I got divorced and my now fiance' and I started seeing each other ( I am in my 30's and she in her 40's) we were both very honest and upfront in the beginning about what our intentions and expectations are and where. You're right you are getting older which is why you don't have time to play games. Have a conversation, not a confrontation. Let her know what you want and need out of this relationship and ask her what she wants and needs from you. No pressure and no accusations.

 

As for this guy, no harm I see in letting her know that it makes you uncomfortable and you are not okay with it. Let her know that you don't mind her having male friends but this seems a little off, especially her knowing intimate details of his sex life with his wife. This means they have had some serious detailed talks before. That isn't something that he would share in a first conversation for fear that she would tell his wife. There is a level of comfort there so I believe you have enough evidence to at least be concerned about. My fiance' works in an office environment with mostly men and sometimes they do share details and ask advice of her and I have heard and participated in some of these conversations. They do make me uneasy at times but she has shown examples of when she will set them straight. Also, these are guys that she works with on a daily basis and knows well. Not a guy she just met.

We have been dating for about 6 months. She is divorcing because her ex cheated. She has been living on her own for about 2 years.

 

Again, why is she not divorced yet?

 

 

 

For now, she seems to be faithful, but I cannot expect her to be like a single 20-something woman either. We have to give each other a little room to breathe.

 

What you can expect, if she is telling you that she is in a committed relationship with you, is that she acts accordingly. There are ways that we should be expected to act when we commit to someone. One of those expectations is that your SO will not openly flirt or accept the advances from members of the opposite sex. Even allowing a certain amount of flirting gives some men the impression that she is on the market even when she says she isn't.

 

All suspicions aside, she is a human being going through a lot of turmoil. If I do not recognize that, then I am going down the path to selfishness, and that is risky.

 

It is not selfish, foolish, childish, or anything other than mature and wise to lay out relationship expectations up front. If it's a casual hook up between 2 consenting adults, fine, but don't call it a committed relationship. If it's, let's just see where this goes with no pressures that's fine too, but she is talking long term future with you yet her actions show you different. If my fiance' was checking other guys out (no I don't mean looking because everyone looks but you clearly saw her watch him walk away and then wave) then I would definitely have a problem with it because we are in a committed relationship and are planning a future together. Good luck OP. You may well have a good one here but until you two talk through some things and come to some agreements you won't know and will still be guessing.

[Chi townD]

Okay, we're four pages in on this thread. So, what's the deal? Did you talk to her yet?

[firmness]

Okay, we're four pages in on this thread. So, what's the deal? Did you talk to her yet?

 

I have not mentioned this particular situation yet.

 

It has been my experience that if one brings these things up the wrong way, it blows up. Women in their 40's these days have been indoctrinated into a mindset that says "any questions from a new love interest are signs of controlling and insecurity" - neither of which is true in my case. Actually, quite the opposite is true on both counts.

 

I said earlier that I would wait it out. I plan to keep watching her. I also plan to play it loose and easy for now. I am in no hurry to move in with her. We both have been divorced and have children, so it is a whole new ballgame for both of us. There is no hurry.

 

If she is doing wrong, and I ring an alarm bell at this point, she will know that I am on to her and she will try twice as hard to cover her tracks. So I suspect I will have my answer sooner or later without too much effort.

 

If she is NOT doing wrong, and I ring an alarm bell, I look like an ass.

 

Do you see how that is set up?

 

The best thing to do at this point seems to be to wait it out and have fun along the way. I am strong enough to put future worries aside and live in the here and now.

 

What else is there?

[2sunny]

What else is there?

 

How about calling it like it is?

 

First you stated her actions perfectly well - then you back track to make her not so bad. Which is it?

 

 

Are you so insecure that you're afraid of not having her? Guess what? She's not yours to have. She may present like she's available and faking the future - but you look at the facts:

 

She's NOT DIVORCED!

She's OPENLY focusing energy on another man

She has other men dropping by her place uninvited or unannounced!

 

 

And you close your eyes to the red flags.

 

You've got half a woman - because she's not only focused on you.

 

Keep YOUR options open man - your gal looks like she's interested Ina married man.

 

At best, she's spending time and energy flirting with another MARRIED man. That says a lot about her LACK of integrity!

[Man Mountain Makino]

I think she wants to be able to have close new male friends, and she is even Externalizing her behavior deliberately for you to notice it, and to test your reaction.

 

she is defining borders for the future. I think that's a problem because she doesn't consider you in the equation. She doesn't care if you're disturbed by it, she's too busy with her self and her freedom.

 

I believe that 2 people in love should do a lot for each other in any aspect. When you say that she didnt deny\approve - it's very selfish. She practically defies against you.

One rule that has never failed me is that a person should try to make their romantic love interest more secure in a relationship, rather than less secure.

 

She ain't making you more secure.