Surgery

[Mommame2]

So I posted here before. Husband knew a few weeks ago that I needed to have his help to access 2k to pay for a surgery that was coming up. He failed to do so in time because he said that he didn't have 10 min to spare on a Monday to make the call. When he got home he said he was shocked that I had to cancel the surgery. He knew. He was just playing dumb. Oddly enough he said be really wanted me to have the surgery!

 

Anyway I had to reschedule it. It was moved to this past Wednesday. I told him I thought it was a bad idea to have our 8 year old come. It was a 4 hr surgery under general. I drove the 3 he drive myself and then he came w our son (despite my concern) a few hours later. He even brought the darn dog.

 

He arrived angry. Frustrated. Our son and dog were annoying him.

 

They did drop my off for surgery the next morning and drive me back to the hotel. They then left and saw the town. But my husband was clearly frustrated. He even said to me as I was trying to recover "I hope you recognize the sacrifice making for you. Son is driving me crazy".

 

The next morning he and son went to my follow up appt. I was not supposed to drive yet. But against doctor orders he said that I should just follow him home. I did the best I could. It was very very hard for me. He pulled over a few times and checked on me. Other than that I felt pretty alone.

 

Today he got a sitter and left a lot of the day for work stuff. He asked me to clean up the house while he made calls. And asked if he could go out with a friend tomorrow while I watch our son.

 

I'm pretty emotional tight now since I'm in pain. We are already near divorce (he says he doesn't want) and I'm wondering how others feel about this situation.

 

Does this sound reasonable? Or goes it sound like emotional abuse?

[Yasuandio]

Sounds like the status quo that you have been willing to eat all this time. How do you like the food?

 

When there is nothing appetizing in the fridge to eat (like on a really hot summer evening tonight), I'd rather go without dinner sometimes.

 

So, ask yourself, was your husband really the only option to get to the hospital and stay at the hotel? The truth. Yas

[Mommame2]

You have a good point. I actually wanted to go alone and hire a nurse. But because he knew I had told him we were divorce bound a few weeks ago I think he felt obligated to do something.

 

It would have been easier if I was with someone else.

 

My husband is so hot and cold. He will act like that while I'm recovering from surgery but then randomly make me a nice meal to "show how much he loves me" but all this is happening at the same time he thinks I'm filing bankruptcy and filing divorce to protect his credit and then get back together. He thinks it is all just a legal paper trail to get rid of debt and then all will be ok.

 

It is not good situation so why oh why am I still feeling stuck and obligated to stay?

[Yasuandio]

Honey - you are just in the habit of giving up everything for every one else's good, and putting yourself on the burner. That is the answer to the "why" question at the end of your last post.

 

Be proud of yourself! I asked you a very TOUGH question, in a VERY DIRECT manner. You had a couple options:

 

1. Be defensive and argue and make excuses.

2. Go in denial and not respond.

3. Insult me - because what I said "hit a tender nerve"

4. Wait to see if some other poster will rescue you with a different perspective.

5. Be mature. Face the fact you had other options and it was your choice to include husband in a situation that would make you uncomfortable when you needed help during a medical procedure.

 

 

So what happened last evening when you studied in "in-your-face" response from Yas? You went with #5, which is that - you agree you made a dumb choice, created the problem you complained about all by yourself, - and you OWNED IT! Bravo for you!

 

That is the first step to independent thinking, and pulling away from co-dependency - you have to recognize it!

 

The next step - is to do something about it. You are on your way to doing that by facing fact that a divorce may be necessary.

 

If a divorce is a decision you have made - his problems are not your problems anymore, period. He can "Go Cry For Me, Argentina." Boo-Hoo. When he has those few nice-nice moments, tell him he "should have tried to be nice like this for the past XX years." my saying is too little - too late. You know it is phoney anyway - look what happened when you recently dependedd on him to care for you during the surgery.

 

What do you think he'd do if you developed Alzheimer's? Would he care for you, comfort you, feed you, bathe you? give you a good life as long as possible in your home? HEEELLLL NO. He would most likely get you declared incompetent and have you put in some State run nursing facility where you would not eat, fall, break bones, go down, down, down. Then he would put a "Do Not Resustate" order on you case (he is in control as your husband), and you will die.

 

That is how my brother got my mom dead in a matter of months. There was nothing wrong with her mind at all. Once he had power of attorney - and made a couple reports to "his doctor" that was it. Down, down, down, DEAD. I couldn't do anything because my brother had all the power. And he is a drunk too. (It was a Mother-Son bond thing). But my mom did change her mind - and called my cell phone repeatedly - and my brother had her phone disconnected.

 

I bring this story forward now - because your case made me think about this for a few some reasons:

 

1. I've been watching the TV show series 24 - and the actor playing the "President" on the show has Alheimer's and wanted to give up his life. He states something to The lead character, Jack Bower, who is about to assist him in a suicide mission: "Jack, one year from now, I won't know my face from the moon.". This statement convinces Jack to assist the Chief of Staff in acting out his last wish. Till the next episode...

 

That made me think of:

 

2. President Reagan gracefully stepping out of society, due to his Alsheimer's diagnosis. The former President didn't want the American people to remember him in that condition. Nancy Reagan, his loving wife, became his voice, and stood by him till his death. It is a true love story we would hope. An "Until Death Do Us Part" promise carried out to it's fullest extent on Nancy's end, we hope and imagine.

 

Which led me to reflect upon...

 

3. Would we be as loving as Nancy Reagan may have been to our husbands in their time of need? I can say, without a doubt, I would have taken a bullet for my former husband. I would have cut an arm, or given him my kidney. I would have cared for him in his and my home till his last breath. I am sure you, Mammame2, would and might still do the same.

 

And that made me think...

 

4. If the situations were reversed, would our spouses have done this loving gesture for us, like what we would do without hesitation (asdescribed in #3 above), and as like we imagine Nancy Reagan, when the time came - if they had the chance? In my case - I can say without a doubt, my husband would find some way to get me off his hands - and would never want to visit me in a sickly condition - no way. And if he could have the power to pull the plug - he would DO IT - in heartbeat. What about your husband Mamame2?

 

And that is what led me to think of my brother this morning when I began to respond to your post.

 

5. If my own brother can dissaoear my Mom with no guilt at all, then so could a husband do to his wife if she got very sick - especially with Alzheimer's. The doctor's are there to assist the person in charge and allow the person to die! There is even a company - and yes - it is a company, Hospice, that allowed my mom to starve, "peacefully" - that is insane.

 

Which made me think...

 

6. My former husband is about to visit his Dad in Greece who has Alheimer's. His mother is the sane as Nancy Reagan.

 

Which made me think...

 

7. If former husband got Alheimer's - how would it be possible, to develop the type of love at this point in life (he is 61 now), the wife that would care for him like his 75 year old mother is caring for his dad now? Or a wife like Nancy Reagan? Or a wife like me or you? How can this love be reestablished in a second marriage? It is impossible to repeat the history of your life a second time.

 

Which causes me conclude:

 

8. Mamame2, you and I are irreplaceable rare diamonds. There is nowhere our husbands can re-purchase replacements. No matter how much money or power they can offer up - the product just is not available. You cannot just buy a lifetime history of a loving spouse - that item is not available on the market. We need to remember our value sweetheart. Better off alone than being trashed. Even if it hurts.

 

I wrote a long story here for you - because you are worth it. And your post - "him not being there for you" for the surgery (even though he was there physically with the child and dog), really got me thinking. Sometimes I think too much and write too much. But it is an interesting twist on things - isn't it? The bottom line - is, if the guy cannot handle your out patient surgery, what the heck will happen later, right? Let me know what you think of this extreme analogy. Ok, I shut it now! Yas

[Mommame2]

I totally hear what you are saying ... And I appreciate the analogies. I get it. Completely.

 

If I wanted to be completely honest though... I don't know if I would be the best person to care for my husband either. If he were seriously ill, I don't know if I could be Nancy Reagan for him. I don't love him like I love my son.

 

He has spent years complaining. Saying he got hurt by doing xyz. He is always crying wolf. So I have lost sympathy for him. There are times I think about getting a call that he was in a tragic accident or something. Awful for our son. But for me... It would be different.

 

That's a horrible thing for me to admit. But I'm being honest. I don't know if that's really the truth. I'm a caring person. If he was harmed I'm sure I would help. But you get my drift.

 

I just watched him lay on the couch all afternoon and then tell me he's going to hang out with his friends tonight. Something he NEVER does. He obviously wants to be free of me for tonight. So he's. I will order pizza and watch a movie with our son. And i will plan the exit strategy.

 

This does help me. Because tonight I'm finally angry. I needed anger.

[Yasuandio]

The Nancy Reagan analogy I gave you is what I felt during the marriage - before he completely did me in through alienation of affection (as you are experiencing), and a hidious four year protracted divorce. I am beyond anger now. I even went through a stage where I hoped he would have a heart attack and die. Momame2, these are normal feelings I have heard many people express both men and women.

 

Your husband will get nice again when he realizes he has lost you. Mamame2, you strike me as a loving, caring, and devoted woman till the end of time, which would include the Nancy Reagan descriptive analogy. The only thing that migh change the is if you were pushed too far. It appears to me that if you have lost that "Nancy Reagan" feeling for good - your husband is finished and it is over him.

 

If that was not so - you would waver in your responses to these questions. Even now -- I still waver - but it in only out of fear (due to my illness, and the fact I am alone without family). You have your son to make you smile. I have an empty house (plus my dogs). Having a son surely makes a difference.

 

I admire your steadfastness - and your lack of ambivalence. I admire the way you absorb the abstract and see immediately how it applies to your situation, without any "but this," and "but that's."

 

I wish I was in your state of mind ten years ago. You are a smart woman. Have a look at the Kubler stages of grief in the Critical Readings section and see if you like any other reading there. You may relate to the "gaslighting" articles too, is my guess. The link is in my signature line, and is a pinned thread at top of our forum. Tell me what topics stand out, or are useful to you - those or any others. I'm curious. Yas

[Mommame2]

I went through the stages... And yes I can see what you are saying. Although I think I still teeter on denial. In fact, my husband is being super nice today (in ways) and I had one if those moments where I faltered and considered backing out of really moving and divorcing for REAL.

 

I truly hope that I can keep some strength because I certainly get weak. I start to blame myself and think I'm overreacting.

 

So here's what I deal with. Husband doesn't have a full time job. He wanted to do freelance. But he hasn't been bringing in enough to cover his previous paycheck (when he had a full time job).

 

Well he knows I'm having to file bankruptcy. We are borrowing && from his parents. And he recently wanted to turn down a 20 thousand dollar contract because it thought the guy had an attitude. I pushed him to go through with it but he has been angry.

 

Last night I heard about a full time job with one of his friends businesses. It pays very well. He said it didn't interest him because there were too many women in charge in the organization. I kept my mouth shut. Today he woke up and was super nice to me. And said he wanted to go with me back to the dr tomorrow. (Not necessary NOW). He offered to get me breakfast etc. All nice, right? I log onto the computer and see he has a job posting pulled up. I asked him nicely... Hey are you thinking of applying for that job I saw on the computer? He says geez last night you get upset I don't want to apply for xyz job and now you are interrogating me about that job. Yes I was going to apply. Why do you need to know?

 

I said wow I just wanted to talk about it. I didn't have a tone or anything. Just communicating. He says well yay maybe I'll apply. And I just walked away.

 

I don't understand why he acts this way? This is him "trying" I think. But I felt so uncomfortable. This shouldn't be that tough, right?

[jakrbbt]

Yeah, maybe he is trying very hard. Maybe he is doing the honest best he can. Even if that's true, it is not good enough-- because you are not even able to recover from surgery, have surgery for that matter without nightmare stress, plan your future finances, be privy to the money and logistics from his end that will affect your future, and know whether you'll receive interpersonal and emotional blows or sunshine from him tonight. You are not in a relationship with mutual respect and emotional support. You can't even plan your own future, AND you're the one left feeling bad about that.

 

I don't care if he's trying. You are not his reward, his "A" for effort. You aren't a prize; you are a person in a relationship. I don't hire a guy to build a house for me if he is incompetent, pay him and live in the structurally unsound house just because he "tried real hard." Being in a relationship is a consent issue. It is not based on just desserts. If it were, you'd be simultaneously obligated to marry a hundred men because they are "good guys." If you think that you have to arrange your life around what he deserves, then you likely have a hard time identifying and setting boundaries.

 

I read about this guy's actions and I think two things: 1) everything is about him, him, him, and 2) what an insecure man. He can't even stand to work for a company where some women will be in positions of authority over him. Cannot even tell his own wife, who is dealing with some significant financial issues in the family, what he'll do for work. Cannot face the prospect of her needing him. Probably cannot face the prospect, far worse, of her not needing him.

 

I am willing to bet that your husband is hugely passive-aggressive. He is wild for control. He's not necessarily evil, just an overly needy leech who cannot live with you without utterly jerking you around and controlling you. And I'd bet my end-of-the-month dollar that, once he jerks you around for control, he doesn't really end up feeling better about himself anyway. Yet he keeps doing it, and will, for a long time.

 

I don't have a lot of positive comments to offer about someone like your husband. I feel bad for your son. All I have is a main answer to your original question: no, your situation does not sound reasonable. And furthermore, even if you get a hundred of us from LS on here PLUS fifty bishops and a nun swearing that your situation is not reasonable, your husband might still object to changing it. He likely would still object to you leaving it. Don't wait to convince him that you are doing something inarguable, if you decide to leave. I know that divorce is not a decision to be taken lightly, and is no fun for anyone. But bear in mind too, that we live in a day and age when a guy cannot, strictly speaking, force his woman to stay with him. You get to leave when you decide that it is too unhealthy and painful to stay. That is exactly as true whether you can convince your husband of it or not.

[Yasuandio]

Preech, sista, preech! Mamame2, now you have a response from a woman, an esteemed attorney on top of it, that is also being "jacked" around by her husband. War is hell.

 

Read your post again. Read all of your posts again.

 

All three of us have asked the same question, why do smart, intelligen women tolerate mean, angry, hateful, lazy, or poor excuses for husbands? (Choose your description). Why?

 

Another question. Why do us three women "melt" when our husbands' tossed a little doggy bone or breadcrumb (and suddenly WE go all amnesiac)? In some cases, I've wittnessed, the effect of a breadcrumb causes extreme drulling like Pavlov's dogs. Even if the doggy biscuit received by the subject during conditioning training is wrapped in barped wire, and tears the delicate membranes out of the poor woman's cheeks as she tries to chew it, the experiment results are same. Suppose trainer substitutes doggie treat with electrical shock? What would you think? I bet the same - doggie has associated trainer with a treat through long term conditioning and responds with salavating (no matter what the "treat-ment" or lack thereof consists), period. Why is that conditioning so powerful?

 

Again, post conditioning training, breadcrumb or doggy treat (barbed wire or not), the drulling, panting, and/or pinning remains when trainer appears. Perhaps even when subjects see an image of trainer, response same. Why is that?

 

There was a story I read recently about a woman so "crazy" in love during the 1960's and she wanted her man so bad - even after he threw acid on her face to disfigure her so "no one else would have her." the back-up music of the short movie or new-reel story was Elvis Presley's "Crazy Love." Sorry I don't recall details - but the true story could be located easy enough.

 

OK. I pushed the analogy too far again, Mamame2. But it is interesting to think about, isn't it?

 

Another topic. It is normal to be all over the Kublar chart - but you will definitely know when you hit the grieve/mourn button. That one you won't miss. It is like your guts turn inside out. It is a sobbing unlike crying, sort of like the dry heaves - worse than the death of a parent. No-one wants to feel that deapth of loss - that is why you float around in denial, anger, depression, back to anger, etc. But when you start accepting it - man, that is more that painful - painful is not the correct word. It is not a mental process either. Something clicks in your psyche - and your body know, and goes into this gut-wrenching reaction - that you have no control over.

 

For me - I came home from a Court hearing - and it hit me like a ton of bricks. It was just something - a little repeated word my former husband kept using on the stand in extreme anger - he kept referring to me as EX. EX, EX, EX, EX. I had been just fine. I was under the impression he had put a block on his phone with money I had sent him. This was my issue - sometimes I was tempted to call - so I asked him to change his number or to block my number and had assumed he had done with the money I sent. It had been almost 7 months since I had picked up the phone - that idea had worked so good, And I was feeling much better. When I got home from Court, the "grieving" started. I picked up the phone just out of habit, just to talk to a blank phone - and the call went though. He never used my money to block my number - the jerk. He heard my grieving on VM, and how hurt I was about that EX word. Well. He never ever again, in the years that followed in finishing the divorce, never did he ever use that word again.

 

After about a week of deep grieving - I moved to acceptance - but still went back and forth to anger and denial when I saw breadcumbs and confusing mixed messages.

 

That gives you an idea of how one woman went through this. He dumped me though. That makes for a huge difference in your reactions, and how the stages unfold, Mamame2. My guess is that the dumper goes thru stages before they dump you - they are a few years ahead in emotional recovery. The dumper is taken off guard in many cases - and starts from scratch, in denial - perhaps making an idiot out of themselves for months - whilst the dumper has already moved on. I think that was true in my case.

 

Yet, post divorce, I believe there is yet another "loss" that occurs. Not for the dumpee - they are hitting acceptance of a loss by this time. It is at the mark of the actual legal divorce decree, especiall when the dumper sees the dumpee moving on and dating that THEY begin to feel a sense of LOSS. Like, uh-oh, I lost my wife - she's not mine anymore. At this point - in my case, I'm observing some odd conduct of my former spouse. Not only drive-bys and being where I am at certain times. It has escalated. And not in a positive direction. I would call one type of "pursuing behavior" legal harassment - none of which has been successful. For instance, I was threatened by his council for Contempt of Court for not paying taxes on a property, being 3 months delinquent on a mortgage, and months behind on an equity loan - therefore distorting his client's credit report rating. ALL and I mean ALL of these accusations were erroneous - and he and his attorney looked like idiots when I wrote my response with proof of timely payments. Former husband came to my door, rang bell, I did not answer, he twisted door knob, and then started beating on the door. His car was nowhere in sight. What's up with that? Weird? Other weird stuff too. Coming in my neighborhood - in his Convertable Mercedies - top down, with a young lady? Why do crap like that? He has his own neighborhood - why come near my sub-divion?

 

He is mixed up, honey. Dealing with loss. Same as you and me and jackrabbit. The best thing is to get a grip on the basic patterns of this thing BEFORE you are in it. I can tell you first hand - I was not thinking straight in the last 5 years of the marriage. I couldn't SEE what everyone else clearly could see - what is in your words exactly - that you are having your doubts about after you write the words. Mamame2 and jackrabbit - when you are in it, you don't get it - it is too fraught with Pavlov drama, and grief stages. When you get out towards the end - even then it is still confusing. Just look to my last threads. Months later I now get it about that chick in the car.

 

Well that is enough Yasu BS (this darn ADHD med - OMG! Yap, yap, yap). See ya later girls. Y