travelbug1996 Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Men are the NEW women. Because women are too busy pursuing and chasing them and are now the new MEN. ijs 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Charlie Harper Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 This post will surely, make more than one uncomfortable but so be it, its the nature of our days and the weird empowerment of women and the need to be in control, and the self entitlement the media, movies and society gives women. 60 years ago a woman knew her place, even if she did work or had a successful job she had a preprogramming that said NO MATER WHAT you will command your home and take care of children, your husband will take the hard decisions, control de money and the sex. It was not fair but it lasted a long time, changing that macho attitude for something more balanced would be something desirable, but in the 50/60/70 we lost the way and paved a road to what we have today. WHY? Because Disney sold the idea of powerful princesses, the media sold the equality of women as a means of competing NOT COMPLEMENTING and the rest is history... Womans libaration, sex revolution, and feminism have urned the tables and made women and men miserable, because a lot of those ideas are incompatible. It doesn't mean we should go back to macho land, but it means we need a clearer picture because women become bitchy and controlling, and then complain that his lover is a Mangina, if their man is strong, commanding and resolute, he is a jerk. there is almost no middle ground. In the middle of it all is the large part of the women population who can't pinpoint what they want, they "think" they "know" what they need but they fail because they (just as us Men) have been brain washed ... a lot of my female friends, divorced need some kind of conflict and friction on a relationship to "feel" its working, they meet a nice guy, with confidence, integrity, easy to be with, that cause no troubles and they find it "boring". A few months ago I made this weird experiment, I have 2 cars, one expensive 2 seat sports car, and one luxury car that is mostly used by women but its not SUV. They day I had a date and used the sportscar, women would be more open, ask a lot more about me, the conversation would gravitate towards my life and what I do. When I used the wagon, it was the opposite....conversation about her, and lees about me, and it was more serious and quiet. Same happen with clothes and such.... I could go on but bottom line, they are reacting to something they learned, just as we towards certain kind of women. People men and Women have been brain washed the result is that nowadays a lot of men see women who are very active, controlling and strong, and they get a ride... Link to post Share on other sites
Emilia Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Its just not how I, as a person, am wired...Never show weakness....EVER...especially to a woman... These traits are helpful in business and life. Now that doesn't mean I am heartless or discompassionate, quite the contrary...And if I cut myself I bleed red blood like anyone else..Just that the thought of spilling my guts and crying over a relationship or job situation, etc..seems like the absolute worst thing one can possibly do, as a man..even though I know its completely acceptable.. What can I say? call me an unenlightened moron...I dunno... TFY My last ex is similar to this and the ultimate result is that he comes across controlling and someone who wants everything on his terms. You could argue that he should look for submissive women but he doesn't seem to like those long term. He always says he wants someone who is his equal - but at the same time equal on his terms? How is that possible? The truth of the matter is, you get out what you put in. If you never show compassion and vulnerability, it will be a battle and power games. I remember my ex trying to shame another man about that guy buying flowers for his wife using the term 'treat them mean keep them keen'. So I asked him how that was working out for him. It's not, of course. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Taramere Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) With regards psychopaths/manipulators, never let your guard down even when you reject them. They can manipulate you and wait for the right time when you might be depressed from a friends death...she waited for months to get me at the right time....That was a few months too long for me. That's really harsh. Sorry you went through that. I've tended to find people will be most likely to attack me when I'm vulnerable. I wouldn't say the people I have in mind were psychopathic, so much as they were drama addicts or just people who lacked the ability to handle conflict in any way other than with spite and aggression. The thing about it is that when somebody does that to you, you can feel any respect and trust drain away like water being sucked down a plughole. Once that's gone, their opinion of you is going to cease mattering. The bottom line is that once you've had a chance to lick your wounds you'll get back up and be yourself again. And when you do, that person had better hope they're never in a position where they're relying on your goodwill. Edited June 30, 2014 by Taramere 1 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) My last ex is similar to this and the ultimate result is that he comes across controlling and someone who wants everything on his terms. You could argue that he should look for submissive women but he doesn't seem to like those long term. He always says he wants someone who is his equal - but at the same time equal on his terms? How is that possible? The truth of the matter is, you get out what you put in. If you never show compassion and vulnerability, it will be a battle and power games. I remember my ex trying to shame another man about that guy buying flowers for his wife using the term 'treat them mean keep them keen'. So I asked him how that was working out for him. It's not, of course. With all due respect, please dont paint me with the same brush as a a jackass like this...Id NEVER say or do such a thing... In addition, ive never been controlling..In some cases(not saying you) some women just find strong men intimidating, so they default to calling them controlling, when in reality its not true and the problem isnt so much on the guy as it is the woman... I show compassion all the time...Maybe to a fault, actually...Vulnerability?...eh...not really in my nature.... As I stated, I have a heart of gold, once you get to know me...And have always treated women with the utmost respect...But that being said, I dont align myself in the same vein with a lot of guys nowadays that let their women keep their balls on their nightstand...There is a point at which you lose all dignity and self respect.. TFY Edited June 30, 2014 by thefooloftheyear Link to post Share on other sites
Emilia Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 With all due respect, please dont paint me with the same brush as a a jackass like this...Id NEVER say or do such a thing... In addition, ive never been controlling..In some cases(not saying you) some women just find strong men intimidating, so they default to calling them controlling, when in reality its not true and the problem isnt so much on the guy as it is the woman... People use that expression quite commonly to describe exactly what he is saying, it's not to be taken at face value, have you not heard of it? It's typical of controlling men to deny that they are controlling. Have you ever heard anyone say 'I know I want things on my terms and I know I am controlling, it's because I'm too insecure to show vulnerability'? No, you haven't. There is nothing intimidating about a truly strong man, by the way. I show compassion all the time...Maybe to a fault, actually...Vulnerability?...eh...not really in my nature.... So how do you show compassion but not vulnerability? I'd say that's impossible. You are trying to control how people see you and perceive you. As I stated, I have a heart of gold, once you get to know me...And have always treated women with the utmost respect...But that being said, I dont align myself in the same vein with a lot of guys nowadays that let their women keep their balls on their nightstand...There is a point at which you lose all dignity and self respect.. TFY Which is what 'treat them mean, keep them keen' means. It's where you draw the line but yeah, it's about control. Control of how you are seen and perceived. So exactly as my previous post. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 People use that expression quite commonly to describe exactly what he is saying, it's not to be taken at face value, have you not heard of it? Nope...Never heard of it...Almost a half a century of life.. It's typical of controlling men to deny that they are controlling. Have you ever heard anyone say 'I know I want things on my terms and I know I am controlling, it's because I'm too insecure to show vulnerability'? No, you haven't. There is nothing intimidating about a truly strong man, by the way. Not really sure where you are finding these trolls, but Ive never said to a woman that I want things MY WAY...Never...Its also typical of women who cant control their men and lead them around like a puppydog to assume then that those guys must be "too controlling."...again...not necessarily referring to you... So how do you show compassion but not vulnerability? I'd say that's impossible. You are trying to control how people see you and perceive you. Compassion is showing genuine care and concern for others that you love and care about...I am all that in every way...If that means I am vulnerable, (I dont see that), have it your way, I suppose.. Which is what 'treat them mean, keep them keen' means. It's where you draw the line but yeah, it's about control. Control of how you are seen and perceived. Dont understand this...One guy makes a douchebag comment and he is now the voice of strong men? So exactly as my previous post. You arent seeing it....Maybe its because of the geographical/sociological differences..I dunno...But what you are saying isnt making any real sense..Not to me anyway.. A strong and resolute guy doesnt immediately get labeled a douchebag..He can be, but doesnt have to be.. TFY Link to post Share on other sites
Emilia Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 You arent seeing it....Maybe its because of the geographical/sociological differences..I dunno...But what you are saying isnt making any real sense..Not to me anyway.. A strong and resolute guy doesnt immediately get labeled a douchebag..He can be, but doesnt have to be.. TFY Obtuse is the oldest form of self-defense. This is why I have always had the utmost respect for my ex, he has always had the balls to show and say who he was. Denial only means that you aren't facing who you are. That definitely doesn't make you a douchebag but the last thing it makes you is strong.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Got it Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 It seems more and more young males, mostly from the millenials, are becoming increasingly beta and clingy towards women. I keep seeing tons of posts in the breakup forum "she left me and I can't get on with my life" or "I've lost all motivation." Even worse "can I get her back?" Don't get me wrong, breakups suck and are hard when you love someone. But guys need to stop giving up their man cards to women and move on and live their life like alpha males. That doesn't mean to be a jerk, control freak, or arrogant. It means to be a leader, be confident, and have your own direction in life and not be influenced by women so easily. A woman should add to your life and be someone who you can share it with. Their job isn't to make YOU happy. I do not see a rising level of "beta" males. I think it is very consistent with older generations but with the rise of internet/social media that has made it more public/pronounced. I do agree with the last part of your post and that is a great message for both genders. Your SO should be the icing on your cake, not your cake. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
FitnessRN Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 That's really harsh. Sorry you went through that. I've tended to find people will be most likely to attack me when I'm vulnerable. I wouldn't say the people I have in mind were psychopathic, so much as they were drama addicts or just people who lacked the ability to handle conflict in any way other than with spite and aggression. The thing about it is that when somebody does that to you, you can feel any respect and trust drain away like water being sucked down a plughole. Once that's gone, their opinion of you is going to cease mattering. The bottom line is that once you've had a chance to lick your wounds you'll get back up and be yourself again. And when you do, that person had better hope they're never in a position where they're relying on your goodwill. Don't worry, I gave her a breakup she will never forget...I was pretty ruthless in the breakup and I kinda dished it out on her. I would consider myself a compassionate person, but believe me she got hers when I gave her a breakup she will never forget. Eye for an eye Link to post Share on other sites
Got it Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Tying into this, I do not feel a need to try and fit myself into gender roles. In fact I am proud of the areas that I do not fall into the stereotypical standards and am proud of the areas that I do. I see myself as a unique and amazing person and my goals is to find others in my life, in a romantic and platonic level, who see and appreciate that for what it is and I feel the same way about them. We are not going to fit with everyone. That is fine. It just means that it isn't a fit between the two and doesn't mean there is anything necessarily wrong with either party. There are men who have seen and appreciate the uniqueness in me and others who haven't. Their loss but not a travesty. I have overlooked others I am sure as well. I also see, statistically, we have a good chance of being compatible with many different people. What makes it successful is our self awareness about what makes us tick, understanding our needs and priorities, willing to listen and communicate effectively and the desire to have a healthy compromising attitude. A great man (and woman) can be strong and flexible when needed, will have latitude to know when is appropriate, will admit fault and make amends, and will (and this is the hardest part) let go of their ego to come to a compromise without letting go of themselves. I see nothing in any of this as gender specific but about individuals. 6 Link to post Share on other sites
Emilia Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 I also see, statistically, we have a good chance of being compatible with many different people. What makes it successful is our self awareness about what makes us tick, understanding our needs and priorities, willing to listen and communicate effectively and the desire to have a healthy compromising attitude. A great man (and woman) can be strong and flexible when needed, will have latitude to know when is appropriate, will admit fault and make amends, and will (and this is the hardest part) let go of their ego to come to a compromise without letting go of themselves. I see nothing in any of this as gender specific but about individuals. Bingo! Except the reason why it's harder for men is this Understanding Patriarchy and Men's Power | NOMAS Link to post Share on other sites
Got it Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Bingo! Except the reason why it's harder for men is this Understanding Patriarchy and Men's Power | NOMAS Do you believe this article? What a depressing and insulting viewpoint of men and their capacity for understanding a bigger picture and flexibility towards it. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Obtuse is the oldest form of self-defense. This is why I have always had the utmost respect for my ex, he has always had the balls to show and say who he was. Denial only means that you aren't facing who you are. That definitely doesn't make you a douchebag but the last thing it makes you is strong.... You nailed the term obtuse...Because this is the most obtuse reply I have ever read on here.... I never denied anything...I just dont think you are characterizing properly... We'll agree to disagree, I suppose... Enjoy your day.. TFY Link to post Share on other sites
Emilia Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Do you believe this article? What a depressing and insulting viewpoint of men and their capacity for understanding a bigger picture and flexibility towards it. Well, I thought some of the posts on this thread spoke for themselves. The very notion of starting this thread was the concept of 'feminisation' of men ie the idea that they were falling to the level of women. In my experience, pretty much every man that uses the word 'alpha' in a very serious context (rather than just touch on the concept) subscribes to this, yes. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
EasyHeart Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Dammit. I knew it was the patriarchy holding me back. There is plenty of room for men's behavior between being a pussy and being an @sshole. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Emilia Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Dammit. I knew it was the patriarchy holding me back. There is plenty of room for men's behavior between being a pussy and being an @sshole. I don't know about you personally but I would say that misplaced pride does hold a lot of men back. The route of that is easy to find in patriarchy. Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 There is another dynamic that I have seen in recent years... Couple of things come to mind... Seems like guys(especially the 20 somethings) have become "yes dear" types that put aside anything that is important to them and cater solely to their wife/gf...It might have something to do with the fact that many of these guys make a lot less than their partners...Like I said, I dont know why this is....just seems pretty prevalent.. Ever notice how a lot of guys dont drive anymore??(if they are out with their gf/wife)....The woman does the driving..That wasnt the norm in years past...Not that there was any rule...Just that most of the time the guy was the one driving...Again...not sure what this means in the scheme of things, but it is noteworthy.. Lastly, most of the guys I know of my generation(including myself) are types that can fix/do just about anything...I could put up a wall, pour a foundation, operate heavy construction equipment, weld like a pro, perform plumbing and electrical work, tile a floor, tear apart a car and repair anything, fix appliances, etc.. All by my mid 20's... Most guys dont know anything about any of this stuff anymore.They can barely change a lightbulb...Maybe they dont need to, but I didnt need to either..Its just stuff we picked up along the way, or it was handed down by fathers or uncles. It was just stuff that guys were expected to know.. Most of the accomplished craftsmen are my age or older.. Its so bad now, that I have read several articles that say becuase of this trend, its going to cause a rise on cost of these services so that the average plumber or auto mechanic is going to make lawyer or accountant kind of money or more...I see that easily happening...Its already happening.. Does that make them less of a man? Probably not, but when you start adding all of this up, then you get the feeling like men are "different" TFY .. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Emilia Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 ".....One reason men fear women's liberation, writes Janeway, is that the liberation of women will take away this unique underclass status of women. Men will now risk falling lower than ever before, into a new underclass composed of the weak of both sexes. Thus, women's liberation means that the stakes of patriarchal failure for men are higher than they have been before, and that it is even more important for men not to lose..." 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Got it Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 There is another dynamic that I have seen in recent years... Couple of things come to mind... Seems like guys(especially the 20 somethings) have become "yes dear" types that put aside anything that is important to them and cater solely to their wife/gf...It might have something to do with the fact that many of these guys make a lot less than their partners...Like I said, I dont know why this is....just seems pretty prevalent.. Ever notice how a lot of guys dont drive anymore??(if they are out with their gf/wife)....The woman does the driving..That wasnt the norm in years past...Not that there was any rule...Just that most of the time the guy was the one driving...Again...not sure what this means in the scheme of things, but it is noteworthy.. Lastly, most of the guys I know of my generation(including myself) are types that can fix/do just about anything...I could put up a wall, pour a foundation, operate heavy construction equipment, weld like a pro, perform plumbing and electrical work, tile a floor, tear apart a car and repair anything, fix appliances, etc.. All by my mid 20's... Most guys dont know anything about any of this stuff anymore.They can barely change a lightbulb...Maybe they dont need to, but I didnt need to either..Its just stuff we picked up along the way, or it was handed down by fathers or uncles. It was just stuff that guys were expected to know.. Most of the accomplished craftsmen are my age or older.. Its so bad now, that I have read several articles that say becuase of this trend, its going to cause a rise on cost of these services so that the average plumber or auto mechanic is going to make lawyer or accountant kind of money or more...I see that easily happening...Its already happening.. Does that make them less of a man? Probably not, but when you start adding all of this up, then you get the feeling like men are "different" TFY .. Yes but many of these younger men know a great deal more about technology, computers, etc than the older generations. From both genders we see a dramatic decrease in blue collar work and skill sets. Computers are doing away with them as are schools and parental teachings. Most are pushing college, or had been pushing college since WWII that just now we are noticing and realizing a great need for blue collar work. I think the idea that being blue collar defends gender, as do actions like driving a car is just falling into a societal designated male characteristic and has little to actually do with the gender specifically. There is nothing about any of those types of things that come out of being male. And for what it is worth, my husband and I switch turns driving depending on the vehicle, mood, and alcohol consumption. Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Yes but many of these younger men know a great deal more about technology, computers, etc than the older generations. From both genders we see a dramatic decrease in blue collar work and skill sets. Computers are doing away with them as are schools and parental teachings. Most are pushing college, or had been pushing college since WWII that just now we are noticing and realizing a great need for blue collar work. I think the idea that being blue collar defends gender, as do actions like driving a car is just falling into a societal designated male characteristic and has little to actually do with the gender specifically. There is nothing about any of those types of things that come out of being male. And for what it is worth, my husband and I switch turns driving depending on the vehicle, mood, and alcohol consumption. Knowledge of computers is a thing that both genders can do equally well....And its a glut of people that do it..thats why my computer guy is nearly broke...he'd be better off a plumber or electrician.. You can say that all you want about a typical blue collar iron worker, diesel truck mechanic, or heavy equipment operator, but Id gladly hire a woman here if she wanted the job and could actually physically do the job as good as a man...But most guys I hire nowadays are barely physically strong enough to do this work...so?? lets face it, when was the last time you saw an accomplished female truck mechanic, tree worker, iron worker, or plumber?? You can say it doesnt define a man, but Its male dominated work...And they(today's men) want no part of it...Despite the fact that these jobs generally pay more than many white collar jobs and the future looks like its going to be bright for the few that do...Supply vs demand... 30 years ago(after the birth of modern feminism and women's lib, btw), you rarely saw a woman drive if they were together(man/woman)...I guess it just seemed like the "male" thing to do.??..Not some macho crap...Certainly not everyone was an Archie Bunker type..*shrug* So what changed?? ..Whats causing guys to be less "traditional male"...(for lack of a better phrase)? TFY Link to post Share on other sites
EasyHeart Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 ".....One reason men fear women's liberation, writes Janeway, is that the liberation of women will take away this unique underclass status of women. Men will now risk falling lower than ever before, into a new underclass composed of the weak of both sexes. Thus, women's liberation means that the stakes of patriarchal failure for men are higher than they have been before, and that it is even more important for men not to lose..."I suspect that's probably true of some men, but it's certainly not true of the men in my peer group. I think it's more useful (and probably more honest) to look at it in economic terms instead of creating things like 'the patriarchy' to impute bad motivations on all men. That kind of stuff immediately shuts down conversation because it implies that all men are evil and all women are oppressed. We know that's nonsense. In the past 50 years, the industrial world has basically doubled its work force by allowing/encouraging/requiring women to work. All those extra workers drove down the price of labor, especially for unskilled workers. That means that in most couples, both people have to work in order to make the equivalent amount of money that their father made by himself. We know from this site that a lot of a man's attractiveness (and confidence) comes from his earning power, so that's going to hurt men much more than women, especially those in unskilled professions. I think one of the things that could really improve the conversation in the gender wars is to simply acknowledge that the women's movement is very much a class movement that benefits wealthy people much more than working class people. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
clia Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 So what changed?? ..Whats causing guys to be less "traditional male"...(for lack of a better phrase)? TFY Feminism bears part of the blame. In previous eras, men had to go out and make a living, support a family, and take control because women weren't allowed to do it. So, even men who might've been naturally inclined to be more "beta" simply couldn't be because society wouldn't let them. Now that women have equal rights and can go out into the workforce and have bank accounts and credit cards and buy property, men who are more inclined to be "beta" can just be "beta." I also think that there is less pressure nowadays for men to be men, which I think is really unfortunate. (I also think there is less pressure for women to be women, which is equally unfortunate.) We have different genders; we should be allowed to be different. But people don't seem to want that anymore. I also hear you on the lack of basic "male" abilities. I'm amazed at how helpless a lot of young men seem when it comes to basic repairs. I grew up with a father and brother who fixed everything, rebuilt cars, and remodeled the kitchens and bathrooms for fun. Maybe because it's become more common to just call someone in to fix it? I think maybe men of past eras would have felt a blow to their masculinity if they had to call someone in to fix the refrigerator. My brother built a deck on his house a few years ago, and I asked him how he knew how to do it and he looked at me like I was an idiot. He had never built a deck before; he just figured it out. Or maybe because in the days of yore before computers and video games doing things like that were nice ways for fathers and sons to bond together, and people don't do that anymore? I also think that, for whatever reason, jobs like electricians and plumbers are viewed as lower than sitting at a desk, when the reality is that you can make great money doing those jobs and they require a lot of brains. I feel like a lot of young men just don't want to get dirty. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 Feminism bears part of the blame. In previous eras, men had to go out and make a living, support a family, and take control because women weren't allowed to do it. So, even men who might've been naturally inclined to be more "beta" simply couldn't be because society wouldn't let them. Now that women have equal rights and can go out into the workforce and have bank accounts and credit cards and buy property, men who are more inclined to be "beta" can just be "beta." I also think that there is less pressure nowadays for men to be men, which I think is really unfortunate. (I also think there is less pressure for women to be women, which is equally unfortunate.) We have different genders; we should be allowed to be different. But people don't seem to want that anymore. I also hear you on the lack of basic "male" abilities. I'm amazed at how helpless a lot of young men seem when it comes to basic repairs. I grew up with a father and brother who fixed everything, rebuilt cars, and remodeled the kitchens and bathrooms for fun. Maybe because it's become more common to just call someone in to fix it? I think maybe men of past eras would have felt a blow to their masculinity if they had to call someone in to fix the refrigerator. My brother built a deck on his house a few years ago, and I asked him how he knew how to do it and he looked at me like I was an idiot. He had never built a deck before; he just figured it out. Or maybe because in the days of yore before computers and video games doing things like that were nice ways for fathers and sons to bond together, and people don't do that anymore? I also think that, for whatever reason, jobs like electricians and plumbers are viewed as lower than sitting at a desk, when the reality is that you can make great money doing those jobs and they require a lot of brains. I feel like a lot of young men just don't want to get dirty. Well said...my thoughts exactly... Yes...Its surprising because even if you dont want to do it and rather call someone in, the reality is that they arent going to do it for beer money or a pat on the back..They want to be paid..And everyone is b!tching that they have no money... I recently had a young lady (mid 20's) call me because she had a bulb out in the front of her car..OK, come over ..She comes over and and I change out the bulb...Took me longer to take it out of the package then to replace it....I mean a chimp could have done this..Her boyfriend looks at me like I am a wizard or something and then proceeds to get in on the passenger side and they drive off.. No big deal, I suppose, but it just seemed so.....er.... TFY 1 Link to post Share on other sites
ThaWholigan Posted June 30, 2014 Share Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) Feminism bears part of the blame. In previous eras, men had to go out and make a living, support a family, and take control because women weren't allowed to do it. So, even men who might've been naturally inclined to be more "beta" simply couldn't be because society wouldn't let them. Now that women have equal rights and can go out into the workforce and have bank accounts and credit cards and buy property, men who are more inclined to be "beta" can just be "beta." I also think that there is less pressure nowadays for men to be men, which I think is really unfortunate. (I also think there is less pressure for women to be women, which is equally unfortunate.) We have different genders; we should be allowed to be different. But people don't seem to want that anymore. I'm actually not sure I completely agree. I agree that there is less pressure - not so sure it is as unfortunate as presented. Obviously, I think that one should face pressures and learn how to adequately handle them. I don't see anything wrong with naturally "beta" men being able to express that without fear of ridicule or having to force themselves to be something they aren't. I think finding more positive manifestations of those traits are the key, rather than emphasizing the negatives. Obviously, augmenting ones character with some steel is not a bad idea. When you say people don't seem to want that anymore, what it actually is is that people don't want to have to completely change who they are and put up the facade of being "what a man/woman is 'supposed' to be" and being unhappy. I used to think that way - in an extreme way actually. Now I am in the middle about this. I also hear you on the lack of basic "male" abilities. I'm amazed at how helpless a lot of young men seem when it comes to basic repairs. I grew up with a father and brother who fixed everything, rebuilt cars, and remodeled the kitchens and bathrooms for fun. Maybe because it's become more common to just call someone in to fix it? I think maybe men of past eras would have felt a blow to their masculinity if they had to call someone in to fix the refrigerator. My brother built a deck on his house a few years ago, and I asked him how he knew how to do it and he looked at me like I was an idiot. He had never built a deck before; he just figured it out. Or maybe because in the days of yore before computers and video games doing things like that were nice ways for fathers and sons to bond together, and people don't do that anymore? I also think that, for whatever reason, jobs like electricians and plumbers are viewed as lower than sitting at a desk, when the reality is that you can make great money doing those jobs and they require a lot of brains. I feel like a lot of young men just don't want to get dirty.However, I DO agree with this to an extent. Not every guy is going to want to do these things or be good at them, but from my own point of view, whether you're effeminate or uber masculine, it's not a bad idea to learn how to be good at things like the stuff mentioned above. It should even be critical I would argue. But also, some things that would be considered feminine are also essential - cooking for example. I know too many guys that don't cook nowadays. It's important to learn these skills to be somewhat self-sufficient - that goes beyond masculine/feminine and clingy. ------------------- To further address the actual topic, I refer to my original post again - in which I pointed out that the number hasn't risen. Simply that there is a sense of freedom from having to fulfill a personally unfulfilling role without lateral movement. The problem is, we are an extreme generation and we seem to either be completely black or completely white at certain times, and oscillate quite vigorously between the two. There are many shades of grey that most people fit into and we tend to operate in those areas majority of the time, but too often it's easy to shift to an extreme. That's what I see a lot of people from both genders doing. Social Media has an important part to play in that. In a sense, the whole "feminine man" schtick is simply an extension of previous attitudes towards masculinity that are still prevalent in the minds of a lot of people. I find myself doing the same thing too, then I remind myself that not every man is "traditionally masculine" and shouldn't force themselves to be if it's a completely contradiction to who they're supposed to be. I would even include myself - I'm not a traditionally masculine man. I have quite a few elements, but generally I encompass many different traits across the board, and a few that aren't even on the board . So I'm far more accepting it would seem - and often at times it seems I have to repress that too. So I fall victim to the same sh*t! Edited June 30, 2014 by ThaWholigan 6 Link to post Share on other sites
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