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If atheists could acknowledge that believers might know that their belief system is wrong, illogical, flawed, and essentially based on myths borrowed from paganism and other systems that came before - but that it gives them comfort and meaning, we might understand them better. We could let them be, and we would all be so much better off.

 

If believers could acknowledge that atheists are deeply offended by those who prey upon their own children by indoctrinating them and the weak (in hospitals and 12 step programs) by getting people to join a religion when they are at their most vulnerable. If they would just keep it to themselves and in private between them and their god, we would all be so much better of.

 

Don't you agree?

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misternoname

Well stated...I'm an atheist but I certainly don't go around trying to "convert" my religious friends to my way of thinking but they don't think twice about doing that to me. It's frustrating and insulting.

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leavesonautumn

I agree to a point. If I don't insult someone's religion, I'd hope that they wouldn't try to make me feel some sort of guilt for not believing. I do hear "Don't worry, I'll pray for you" which has NOTHING to do with me in any way, that's on the person doing the praying.

 

That being said, I've met a lot of religious people who never spoke once about it to me. Not because I wasn't receptive but because they considered it personal. I've also met atheists who called believers stupid right to their face. So, it's hard for me to view believers as all bad or wrong and atheists all good and right.

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I do hear "Don't worry, I'll pray for you" which has NOTHING to do with me in any way, that's on the person doing the praying...

 

People pray to make themselves feel better. When someone says "I will pray for you" they might as well say "I will masturbate for you."

 

Masturbation is a beautiful and natural thing. Prayer is a form of meditation, and that too is natural and beautiful. But you pray and masturbate for yourself, not for anyone else.

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leavesonautumn

LOL I will masturbate for you.

 

Telling someone they will pray for you just seems selfish anyway. "Dear God, please save all of the heathens for me because they make me feel uncomfortable, thank you".

 

(Disclaimer: I don't think anyone literally says that, it's just how it comes across)

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People pray to make themselves feel better. When someone says "I will pray for you" they might as well say "I will masturbate for you."

 

Masturbation is a beautiful and natural thing. Prayer is a form of meditation, and that too is natural and beautiful. But you pray and masturbate for yourself, not for anyone else.

 

I disagree. Obviously prayer isn't something an atheist would subscribe to or find as a worthwhile action, but for those that believe in God, the belief is that prayers can lead to change. healing. maybe peace of mind. Prayer does take different forms. Yes, sometimes folks pray for themselves in that they may be stuck on somethings and are asking for guidance or patience to work things out. That leaning and dialog is how believers believe they build a relatonship with God. Prayer can be in the form of adoration and praise for the God being prayed to.

 

People that believe in God will view prayer as one of the best things they can do for someone. That does not mean prayer verses doing anything else...often times it is in addition to other actions being taken. I pray for folks all the time, sometimes on my own and sometimes by request. I don't get anything out of it...the prayers are for the other person.

 

Unless said in a condescending way, understand that a "I'll pray for you" is meant as a sincere offer. I don't have a good comparison but if during what I celebrate as Christmas someone wished me Happy Hanukkah or some other greeting other than Merry Christmas I would thank them and appreciate the gesture without correction.

 

Think of it this way. If you were ill would it be better to deal with the illness alone or would it be better for you mentally to know that folks cared and were thinking of you..reaching out when they could, offering to help etc. Folks that are believers view prayer as part of the positive connection. I have friends that are athiest and they ask for positive thoughts and karma....I send as requested and believe I simply add to it with my prayer.

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I disagree.

 

Obviously prayer isn't something an atheist would subscribe to or find as a worthwhile action, but for those that believe in God, the belief is that prayers can lead to change. healing. maybe peace of mind. Prayer does take different forms. Yes, sometimes folks pray for themselves in that they may be stuck on somethings and are asking for guidance or patience to work things out. That leaning and dialog is how believers believe they build a relatonship with God. Prayer can be in the form of adoration and praise for the God being prayed to.

 

People that believe in God will view prayer as one of the best things they can do for someone. That does not mean prayer verses doing anything else...often times it is in addition to other actions being taken. I pray for folks all the time, sometimes on my own and sometimes by request. I don't get anything out of it...the prayers are for the other person.

 

Unless said in a condescending way, understand that a "I'll pray for you" is meant as a sincere offer. I don't have a good comparison but if during what I celebrate as Christmas someone wished me Happy Hanukkah or some other greeting other than Merry Christmas I would thank them and appreciate the gesture without correction.

 

Think of it this way. If you were ill would it be better to deal with the illness alone or would it be better for you mentally to know that folks cared and were thinking of you..reaching out when they could, offering to help etc. Folks that are believers view prayer as part of the positive connection. I have friends that are athiest and they ask for positive thoughts and karma....I send as requested and believe I simply add to it with my prayer.

 

Well, I didn't expect someone to disagree and then go on to support my case by pointing out all the ways prayer benefits the person praying. But thanks!

 

 

Prayer has been empirically proven to not work. Someone here said yesterday that God does not intervene. So prayer is a dead topic - seven ways to Sunday (pun intended).

 

There really is not argument here, and I know that you are not arguing. But you did say that you disagree. Prayer is a form of meditation. It makes people feel good. Anyone who believes in prayer would, I imagine, rather know that people are praying for them. So sure, that would make them feel better.

 

But if I knew that people all over the world were masturbating for me so I can recover from a car accident, I would be unfazed by it. People comfort themselves and each other in a variety of ways. Masturbation and prayer work equally well - or so I have heard...

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I have friends that are athiest and they ask for positive thoughts and karma....I send as requested and believe I simply add to it with my prayer.

 

And, forgive me for not saying this earlier - this well wishing makes you a good person. Giving someone positive vibes and wishes in whatever form, is a good thing in my book. You seem like a good and decent human being and as Humanist I very much respect that you care enough for fellow human beings to consider them in your thoughts.

 

I hope you do not stop doing this.

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If you don't want prayer because you find it self-serving and condescending, please be sure to make that clear (though honestly, you can't really stop anyone....hint, hint! j/k...I'll try not to pray for you. I mean heaven forbid).

Edited by pie2
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People pray to make themselves feel better. When someone says "I will pray for you" they might as well say "I will masturbate for you."

 

Masturbation is a beautiful and natural thing. Prayer is a form of meditation, and that too is natural and beautiful. But you pray and masturbate for yourself, not for anyone else.

 

Sigh.

 

I don't even know what to say about this.

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leavesonautumn

To clarify my point a bit, I meant when people say they will pray for you when you tell them you don't share the same belief.

 

Thinking about people during their time of need or wishing them well makes someone an awesome person! I see nothing wrong with this. It's when they look at you with pity and let you know they're thinking about you when you tell someone you're an atheist (I'd even say I identify with being an agnostic atheist but that's getting a bit deep).

 

Come on pie2, it was funny! IMO, their point was that people DO take praying and make it a selfish act. I've had friends who'd pray for high grades and thank God for their 99%. I mean, at what point can we say "hey, I did an awesome job, go me! My hard work paid off!" instead of "God made sure I passed this course".

Edited by leavesonautumn
words tho
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To clarify my point a bit, I meant when people say they will pray for you when you tell them you don't share the same belief.

 

Thinking about people during their time of need or wishing them well makes someone an awesome person! I see nothing wrong with this. It's when they look at you with pity and let you know they're thinking about you when you tell someone you're an atheist

 

Oh, in this case, yes! I totally agree with you. People can use anything to be rude, even "prayer" (though that's not really prayer, imo...it's just a way to make the other person feel small).

 

Come on pie2, it was funny!

 

Umm....it was disgusting! lol :p

 

I've had friends who'd pray for high grades and thank God for their 99%. I mean, at what point can we say "hey, I did an awesome job, go me! My hard work paid off!" instead of "God made sure I passed this course"

 

Never!

 

No, j/k. I think it's a little more complicated than "God made sure I passed", unless you're a hardcore fatalist.

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todreaminblue

I think respect needs to be given on both sides.....i dont think prayer when it is said for others even non believers should be take in to a bad light nor do i think its bad on friends who are people of faith want their friends to know when they find something that is desireable to try

 

 

this was soemthign said on the past weekend to a few people.....

 

if you went to a retaurant or place that you found amazing maybe a lookout with a view where you could see everything beautiful and amazing set before you on a plate or like a view, in the distance you see beauty surrounded by majesty and grace .

 

 

what if that was a fruit that you have never tasted before but was so luscious and full of juice..would you not share it with the people close to you? want them to try something so awesome they just have to try it for themselves ....would you not feel the urge to share?

 

faith is like that fruit, that place, that restaurant where the buffet has so much promise of being satisfying and worth the effort you have to share......with those who are your beloved even strangers ...you would point them there if they asked where the food or fruit is awesome......

 

i think it becomes disrespectful if you play the harp and continue to harass people.......but i do so love the harp.......it is my favorite musical instrument......but i wont play it for you.......i suck pretty much at music..and it upsets me i cant play properly because if there is one thing i cant seem to learn is how to read music...... ...makes me feel like a child in a choir of adults who can all read music.......but i am learning how to sing.....and what i do learn...i want to share...........deb

Edited by todreaminblue
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Part of my motivation in coming to forums like this is that I feel bad for sitting and watching people engage in behaviors that are ultimately bad for Humanity. It is against my deepest core values to support causes that claim to be good - but are ultimately insidious and damaging to everyone. Religions basically take the most horrible view of human nature and perpetuate (actually cause) the weakest aspects (i.e. We are all born sinners, etc.).

 

Religion was necessary at one points in human history. Just like the American Revolution was necessary. But we do not need to be in a state of constant revolution.

 

Indulge me in an allegory of sorts:

 

Imagine you are sitting at rivers edge and you see an alligator swimming towards someone swimming in the water... and they cannot see the alligator. Imagine that person didn't even know what an alligator was. They do not see the danger, they do not understand the danger, and they don't even know about the basic nature of an alligator. All they see is the beautiful water.

 

What would you do?

 

If you are a person like me, you would try something. Anything. This is a fellow human being. No decent human being sits around and watches other people suffer. Only God does that.

 

  • You: "Hey! Look out behind you! An alligator!"
  • Swimmer: "A What?"
  • You: An alligator behind you!
  • Swimmer: What the hell is an Alley gater?
  • You: Just swim fast. Get out of the water!
  • Swimmer: What? This water makes me feel good. Look at all the people swimming. What's wrong with you. Chill dude! Come on in. The water is very comforting. There is no denying it!
  • You: I know the water is nice, but you are in danger!
  • Swimmer: WHAT? You are nuts dude. Look at all these people. You are the only one on the bank. Are you trying to say that you know better than all of us? Just stop it!
  • You: Okay. Okay. Just come here so we can talk it over. Pay no attention to that odd shaped log coming towards you. For goodness sake, PLEASE just swim this way!
  • Swimmer: You know what, I have had enough of you. You are a water hater and now you're trying to trick me. You do not see the beauty and majesty of water. Its healing properties. The way it makes people feel. This river gives people comfort when they feel bad. You are trying to make me fearful like you. YOU are trying to make me believe YOUR perspective. One day a lion is going to come and get you when your back is turned. One day. And when that happens you will see that I was right.
  • You: One day. Maybe. But RIGHT NOW there is a f-ing alligator stalking you. I beg you in the name of all that is right and good. Get out of the water and SEE for yourself! If I am wrong, you can go back into the water. I used to swim in that water all the time until alligators took a bunch of my friends. Trust me just this one time!
  • Swimmer: I have had enough! No. I will not look at both sides. Clearly this is water. Clearly it makes me feel good. Clearly there are others here with me. Clearly you are nuts! Amirite river people!? (crowd - Yeah! Down with the land people. They are going to get eaten by a lion).
  • You: *sigh* (You walk upstream and see some kids playing by the shore. "Hey kids. Before you go into that water, let me tell you about alligators)

 

 

No pressure, no indoctrination, no fear mongering, no hate, not threats of eternal damnation, just human kindness with a bit of sarcasm and fun tossed in for good measure.

 

If I do not have a bit of fun with this, I will lose my mind. We are talking (metaphorically!) about people getting eaten by alligators. And as light hearted as I try to be, this is not a joke. Mankind has suffered immeasurably by all of this. So deep is the indoctrination that most believers still ask for "evidence" of the atrocities.

 

And before any believers try to flip the analogy - remember this. I have been in the water. I was raised in the water. I have seen people drown, disappear, get eaten by alligators and other predatory water creatures. My whole life. I have spoken with people who study water and read science books about it. So I have been on both sides and made my decision.

 

You can only say that you have seen both sides when you completely toss off ALL of your faith, belief, and dogma and climb your butt out of that river. Only THEN can you claim to see both sides. But please spare the whole "yeah, but YOU don't see what I see" thing. Yes I do. I have seen it. I am a river person.. and it is because I have been both that I choose the land.

 

I have made my choice and here I am. Trying to warn of the dangers. What will YOU do?

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todreaminblue
Trying to warn of the dangers.

 

 

watching people engage in behaviors that are ultimately bad for Humanity. It is against my deepest core values to support causes that claim to be good - but are ultimately insidious and damaging to everyone.

 

 

Religions basically take the most horrible view of human nature and perpetuate (actually cause) the weakest aspects

 

 

They do not see the danger, they do not understand the danger, and they don't even know about the basic nature of an alligator. All they see is the beautiful water.

 

 

No decent human being sits around and watches other people suffer. Only God does that.

 

 

Mankind has suffered immeasurably by all of this. So deep is the indoctrination that most believers still ask for "evidence" of the atrocities.

 

No pressure, no indoctrination, no fear mongering, no hate, not threats of eternal damnation, just human kindness with a bit of sarcasm and fun tossed in for good measure.

 

 

 

 

what is fear mongering?

 

Fear mongering (or scaremongering or scare tactics) is the use of fear to influence the opinions and actions of others towards some specific end. The feared object or subject is sometimes exaggerated, and the pattern of fear mongering is usually one of repetition, in order to continuously reinforce the intended effects of this tactic, sometimes in the form of a vicious circle

 

 

 

I think you effectively used this process to benefit your own view...the allegory of an alligator in the water...do you honestly feel alligators are fun adn would you use this allegory with children to scare them into believing what you have to say........whereas the circle or vicious circle of it is that is exactly what you said religion does....and i would say you hate religion ....as you so put you know it, you made your choice and from the deep core of you feel you neeeed to make others see the insidiuous alligator in the water....who is the alligator? .......deb

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Fear mongering (or scaremongering or scare tactics) is the use of fear to influence the opinions and actions of others towards some specific end. The feared object or subject is sometimes exaggerated, and the pattern of fear mongering is usually one of repetition, in order to continuously reinforce the intended effects of this tactic, sometimes in the form of a vicious circle...

 

 

Thanks for responding Deb. You seem like a decent person.

 

 

Yep. You summed up the Christian approach quite well there. I am supremely confident that you cannot see the fear mongering (God will smite you, kick you out of Eden, flood the world, kill the first born of Egypt, send you to burn in hell for all eternity, etc).

 

What really blows me away is how believers so casually and repeatedly sidestep this sort of thing with spin and subterfuge. And it is good that they do. This gives any young people who read it all the evidence they need to see how bereft these systems are. Bereft of decency, honesty and humanity. Just spin and obfuscations, quotes from an ancient text and deflecting questions. All wrapped up in a nice package of "Jesus is love" and "God loves you".

 

It is brilliant - genius actually.

 

I think you effectively used this process to benefit your own view...the allegory of an alligator in the water...do you honestly feel alligators are fun adn would you use this allegory with children to scare them into believing what you have to say........

 

I understand why you would ask this question. With all of the allegories in the bible and parables, it can get confusing. So let me be as super clear as I can. There is no real river to which I am referring. It is just a story, a symbol, an example. Not the literal word of anyone. Just a story to make a point. You find this a lot in the bible in music and in literature. Similes, personification, analogies, parables, and allegories are all ways to make a point without directly saying the thing. This is usually done for artistic, aesthetic or logical reasons when the original point is not easily grasped.

 

 

..from the deep core of you feel you neeeed to make others see the insidiuous alligator in the water....who is the alligator? .......deb

 

The alligator is religion (and cults of all sorts), but more specifically the Islamo-Judeo-Christian faith systems and their various sects. They are the worst.

 

Again, I do not expect you to see anything (the alligators in this case). You made that clear in your questions. So thank you for this. It matters more that others read what you say so they can make better decisions about what to follow and what to avoid.

 

It is good to keep spinning and asking basic questions rather than address the points. It does not bother me any more. I find that when you let a person speak their mind out loud, with someone reasonable at hand to add balance, the more sound ideas rise to the top when it is an intelligent person reading or listening.

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todreaminblue
Thanks for responding Deb. You seem like a decent person.

 

 

Yep. You summed up the Christian approach quite well there. I am supremely confident that you cannot see the fear mongering (God will smite you, kick you out of Eden, flood the world, kill the first born of Egypt, send you to burn in hell for all eternity, etc).

 

What really blows me away is how believers so casually and repeatedly sidestep this sort of thing with spin and subterfuge. And it is good that they do. This gives any young people who read it all the evidence they need to see how bereft these systems are. Bereft of decency, honesty and humanity. Just spin and obfuscations, quotes from an ancient text and deflecting questions. All wrapped up in a nice package of "Jesus is love" and "God loves you".

 

It is brilliant - genius actually.

 

 

 

I understand why you would ask this question. With all of the allegories in the bible and parables, it can get confusing. So let me be as super clear as I can. There is no real river to which I am referring. It is just a story, a symbol, an example. Not the literal word of anyone. Just a story to make a point. You find this a lot in the bible in music and in literature. Similes, personification, analogies, parables, and allegories are all ways to make a point without directly saying the thing. This is usually done for artistic, aesthetic or logical reasons when the original point is not easily grasped.

 

 

 

The alligator is religion (and cults of all sorts), but more specifically the Islamo-Judeo-Christian faith systems and their various sects. They are the worst.

 

Again, I do not expect you to see anything (the alligators in this case). You made that clear in your questions. So thank you for this. It matters more that others read what you say so they can make better decisions about what to follow and what to avoid.

 

It is good to keep spinning and asking basic questions rather than address the points. It does not bother me any more. I find that when you let a person speak their mind out loud, with someone reasonable at hand to add balance, the more sound ideas rise to the top when it is an intelligent person reading or listening.

 

 

I dont look at god in a fear way ...i am not scared of god firmness......i look forward to the day i meet my maker...i have questions.....

 

 

I am scared of people firmness...people hurt me not god.......not religion.....not belief in god...people hurt me.....and have hurt me....and will continue to hurt me......i dont let on that i am scared of getting hurt ...i dont scream out when they have nor will i ever ....i carry the bruises on the inside when they fade from the surface .......

 

i have met alligators in my life....they are surrounded in people skin......

 

from when i was just a girl ......i have been raped .......i got stoned by a group of bored teenagers when i was ten......they surrounded me and threw rocks at me till i fell....then continued to stone me as i covered my head they were pissed i told my younger sister to run so they then emptied their bait bucket into my hair as i lay on the ground......god didnt make them do it....boredom and having alcoholic parents did...god put the sounds of ebb and flow in my mind.........the water nearby ...yes i am a water girl.....and i heard that more than i heard the taunts and the jeers......i felt the rocks though and to this day i cant touch anything slimy......like slugs or lizards or anything squidlike without shuddering......

 

eyes dead flat cold firmness no love no light....no god in there firmness thats what i remember when i looked up between my fingers...people did this to me not god

 

 

and even though people have damaged me time and time again.....i seem to be decent you think firmness.....i am actually a decent caring person who loves god......a decent person who respects your view .....dont agree with it would never agree......but you have your rights and i have mine...we can meet in the middle somewhere firmness without judgement without blame without guile and without fear mongering........deb

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It is against my deepest core values to support causes that claim to be good - but are ultimately insidious and damaging to everyone. Religions basically take the most horrible view of human nature and perpetuate (actually cause) the weakest aspects (i.e. We are all born sinners, etc.).

 

I have made my choice and here I am. Trying to warn of the dangers. What will YOU do?

 

So your life goal is to promote atheism because religion "takes a horrible view of human nature" and "perpetuates the weakest aspects". I take it that your main problem is that religion promotes that man has an innate sinful nature. Is that correct?

 

If so, do you have scientific proof that we don't have a sinful nature? Because this study shows that we, in fact, are born with sinful desires.

 

If you don't think we're sinful, how do you explain the bad things people do, and why do they do them? Is no one "bad"? Only some people? Do you have to have a certain amount of a "bad nature" compared to others to be considered evil?

 

I'm interested in knowing your perspective, OP.

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