Imajerk17 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) There has been a lot of lamenting on the part of the Struggling Dudes about how hard dating is. I'd say there are two big problems: 1. They don't have any idea what women find attractive. 2. They don't know how to become attractive themselves. What Struggling Dudes think women find attractive: (a) Height. (b) Looks. © "Game" (whatever that means). What women actually respond to (no particular order): (a) Confident assured energy. (b) Conversational skills that are a good mixture of teasing and connecting. © Nonreactivity--someone who takes things in stride. Makes her feel "safe"--you're not dangerous, and you can handle things that come up. (d) Ambition/passion with his own life. (e) Someone who knows when to "make a move". (f) Perspective. Relationships end due to people growing. When this happens an attractive guy is heartbroken and goes through the cycle of grief but he also gets that this is life. (g) Oh yeah--looks and height do help, but not nearly as much as guys think. The Struggling Dudes' "strategy" for getting better with women: (a) Feel that it all about things not in your control, such as height and looks--and hold steadfast to that even in the face of overwhelming evidence that this just isn't so--talk about the "can-do" spirit that turns women on! (b) Ask out maybe 3 girls *at the end of* the semester, where none of the 3 ever even seemed all that interested. © Ask for advice on how to improve one's online dating profile and then just not take it. (d) Take dancing (wait, this one is actually really good--one guy got a girlfriend for 6 months). (d) Don't bother working on yourself or anything--just keep hoping and wishing lightning strikes and a pretty girl just lands in your lap. The Struggling Dudes hold tight to the above strategy, even though it is doomed. A better strategy for getting better with women: (a) Put yourself in social environments where you are doing cool fun stuff and meeting people (kickball leagues, CrossFit, ect). (b) Do cold approaches to get comfortable talking with people. © Start caring about stuff other than getting laid. (d) Put out a good online dating profile [see (a)]--OLD has its issues but you learn a lot by going on dates with women. (e) Work on yourself along the lines of getting over your shyness, taking things in stride, conversational skills ect. I don't think ANY of the Struggling Dudes tried the above.... Edited July 1, 2014 by Imajerk17 16 Link to post Share on other sites
organizedchaos Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Yep. Pretty much spot on. Link to post Share on other sites
KaliLove Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 There has been a lot of lamenting on the part of the Struggling Dudes about how hard dating is. I'd say there are two big problems: 1. They don't have any idea what women find attractive. 2. They don't know how to become attractive themselves. What Struggling Dudes think women find attractive: (a) Height. (b) Looks. © "Game" (whatever that means). What women actually respond to (no particular order): (a) Confident assured energy. (b) Conversational skills that are a good mixture of teasing and connecting. © Nonreactivity--someone who takes things in stride. Makes her feel "safe"--you're not dangerous, and you can handle things that come up. (d) Ambition/passion with his own life. (e) Someone who knows when to "make a move". (f) Perspective. Relationships end due to people growing. When this happens an attractive guy is heartbroken and goes through the cycle of grief but he also gets that this is life. (g) Oh yeah--looks and height do help, but not nearly as much as guys think. The Struggling Dudes' "strategy" for getting better with women: (a) Feel that it all about things not in your control, such as height and looks--and hold steadfast to that even in the face of overwhelming evidence that this just isn't so--talk about the "can-do" spirit that turns women on! (b) Ask out maybe 3 girls *at the end of* the semester, where none of the 3 ever even seemed all that interested. © Ask for advice on how to improve one's online dating profile and then just not take it. (d) Take dancing (wait, this one is actually really good--one guy got a girlfriend for 6 months). (d) Don't bother working on yourself or anything--just keep hoping and wishing lightning strikes and a pretty girl just lands in your lap. The Struggling Dudes hold tight to the above strategy, even though it is doomed. A better strategy for getting better with women: (a) Put yourself in social environments where you are doing cool fun stuff and meeting people (kickball leagues, CrossFit, ect). (b) Do cold approaches to get comfortable talking with people. © Start caring about stuff other than getting laid. (d) Put out a good online dating profile [see (a)]--OLD has its issues but you learn a lot by going on dates with women. (e) Work on yourself along the lines of getting over your shyness, taking things in stride, conversational skills ect. I don't think ANY of the Struggling Dudes tried the above.... Excellent post IAJ! Got anything for chicks? 2 Link to post Share on other sites
AD1980 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I'm working on my shyness but it's still something I struggle with.. Not ready yet to confidently mingle with strangers.. Old would be good in one sense because it's easier to break the Ice for me but being short and not all that great looking I don't think it would be that effective for me Link to post Share on other sites
normal person Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 To be honest I can't help but think that despite whatever they say here, the struggling guys here know (I hope, at least) that their real issue is a reluctance to step out of their comfort zone and do a lot of the things that get suggested to them here. I would think a lot of them seem to realize that what they've been doing isn't working and they come here seeking advice. They get a lot of it, but reading it and implementing it are two different things. I'm very much an advocate of brutal honesty and tough love for these guys, but let's not forget that it takes a decent amount of strength and willpower to break a lifetime of habits and throw yourself to the perceived wolves. I'd imagine the reluctance to adapt or the fear of the discomfort is much more of the problem than anything else. Life is challenging so I always have to remind myself to have patience with some people. It'd be nice to hear some more success stories, though. I'm always curious about how much advice given here actually is implemented and what the results are like. Link to post Share on other sites
organizedchaos Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Here's another piece of advice. Stop telling those struggling to develop "game" but instead, to develop "confidence". Confidence is something that can be used in more situations than just trying to pick up women and these guys need more help developing themselves overall, rather than tricks on how to "pull" women. And once they become more well rounded and adjusted individuals, approaching and attracting women will become a natural side effect. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
thefooloftheyear Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Here's another piece of advice. Stop telling those struggling to develop "game" but instead, to develop "confidence". Confidence is something that can be used in more situations than just trying to pick up women and these guys need more help developing themselves overall, rather than tricks on how to "pull" women. And once they become more well rounded and adjusted individuals, approaching and attracting women will become a natural side effect. Excellent point.... Funny thing what you will find when you attend a HS reunion as I did recently... Interesting observation.... Quite a few of the outcast nerds and introverts actually were there with very attractive and lovely wives....Within a few minutes of talking to these guys you can see what happened...They didnt all of a sudden develop some "game", schtick, or some other trickery... They still were the same, just older...But you did get the feeling like they were successful in their career and life...so the pieces just fell into place for them....and they seemed to be very happy. and some were actually still short as I remember..... Just goes to show...There is no "plan of attack"...the only plan is to be the best man you can be... Its as simple as that.. TFY 7 Link to post Share on other sites
ltjg45 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 There isn't much for me to do since the vast majority of women nearby, I simply have no interest in. The only woman I have met that didn't show entitlement issues happens to be foreign and I already asked her out once and I am tempted to do it again. Outside of that, unless I meet more women like the one I am pursuing, there is little benefit to the tips above at least for me. When I find a woman I do like, I have little issue going after her as opposed in the past. But, then again, I am not really a "struggling dude" if that's the case. I just can't find enough people that doesn't make me vomit immediately. Such is life in the U.S. *sigh* Link to post Share on other sites
Pyro Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 To be honest I can't help but think that despite whatever they say here, the struggling guys here know that their real issue is a reluctance to step out of their comfort zone and do a lot of the things that get suggested to them here. Exactly! It's easier to sit behind a screen and complain and make excuses than it is to be bold and try something new. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 A better strategy for getting better with women: (a) Put yourself in social environments where you are doing cool fun stuff and meeting people (kickball leagues, CrossFit, ect). (b) Do cold approaches to get comfortable talking with people. © Start caring about stuff other than getting laid. (d) Put out a good online dating profile [see (a)]--OLD has its issues but you learn a lot by going on dates with women. (e) Work on yourself along the lines of getting over your shyness, taking things in stride, conversational skills ect. In general, helpful suggestions to clear up the most obvious challenges. Of that group, at that time in life (teens-twenties) I'd say (e) was the single most challenging aspect I dealt with, mainly 'taking things in stride'. It took a lot of women being 'mean' to harden me up. Once that was accomplished, things got better. The way I see it is that LoveShack, and the internet, is self-selected. People choose to engage in discussions of, and perform research on, issues they find relevant in their lives. People who don't 'struggle' with interpersonal relationships are less likely to spend their time discussing them simply because, for them, there's nothing to discuss. Their lives, and interests, lie elsewhere and they're living their interpersonal relationships. However, should that be disrupted, say by an affair or a sudden death or other life-changing event, they might find themselves out of sorts and seek understanding and/or support in real life and/or online and might end up discussing their issues on an internet forum. I hope, one day, we can evolve to where young men can feel positive and comfortable discussing their challenges and fears with their peer group and male mentors without doubt or fear of retaliation, shunning, exclusion or labeling. It's up to us. We are them. Link to post Share on other sites
Badsingularity Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I'm working on my shyness but it's still something I struggle with.. Not ready yet to confidently mingle with strangers. Keep it up. Overcoming shyness is one of the most important and best things you can do to start becoming more attractive. Just push through your fear and keep working on it. If you encounter any negativity or negative reactions just remember that they are the one with the problem and it is just part of the process. Don't react negatively just be polite and keep doing what you need to do to improve. It can be scary and will put you out of your comfort zone, but every time you do it and not let the fear win you will grow stronger and more confident. Link to post Share on other sites
irc333 Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Excellent post IAJ! Got anything for chicks? Chicks don't really need much advice (at least like the one given) because all they need to do is show up. LOL Funny how there are tons of strategy tips for men "getting the woman", but very little strategy tips exist for women. I mean I'm sure they do (Cosmo Magazine), but you hardly hear of them. Anyhow, I don't entirely agree with the whole "They don't know how to become attractive themselves". Of course, there's good hygiene, wearing a brand of cologne or body spray, properly trimmed nails, and good grooming habits and of course politeness when out with a woman like treating wait staff nicely, not burping loudly and eat like a normal human being at the dinner table...then there's chivarly and being a gentleman, too. Outside "being yourself" that's pretty much what I do. What you see is what you get, and if you don't like it, move on. I've attracted women with little or no effort on my part just by being myself, and of course having the same personality traits, values, humor, as the woman I've talked to had pretty much made things effortless in garnering their attraction. Link to post Share on other sites
Frank2thepoint Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 There has been a lot of lamenting on the part of the Struggling Dudes about how hard dating is. I'd say there are two big problems: 1. They don't have any idea what women find attractive. 2. They don't know how to become attractive themselves. What Struggling Dudes think women find attractive: (a) Height. (b) Looks. © "Game" (whatever that means). What women actually respond to (no particular order): (a) Confident assured energy. (b) Conversational skills that are a good mixture of teasing and connecting. © Nonreactivity--someone who takes things in stride. Makes her feel "safe"--you're not dangerous, and you can handle things that come up. (d) Ambition/passion with his own life. (e) Someone who knows when to "make a move". (f) Perspective. Relationships end due to people growing. When this happens an attractive guy is heartbroken and goes through the cycle of grief but he also gets that this is life. (g) Oh yeah--looks and height do help, but not nearly as much as guys think. The Struggling Dudes' "strategy" for getting better with women: (a) Feel that it all about things not in your control, such as height and looks--and hold steadfast to that even in the face of overwhelming evidence that this just isn't so--talk about the "can-do" spirit that turns women on! (b) Ask out maybe 3 girls *at the end of* the semester, where none of the 3 ever even seemed all that interested. © Ask for advice on how to improve one's online dating profile and then just not take it. (d) Take dancing (wait, this one is actually really good--one guy got a girlfriend for 6 months). (d) Don't bother working on yourself or anything--just keep hoping and wishing lightning strikes and a pretty girl just lands in your lap. The Struggling Dudes hold tight to the above strategy, even though it is doomed. A better strategy for getting better with women: (a) Put yourself in social environments where you are doing cool fun stuff and meeting people (kickball leagues, CrossFit, ect). (b) Do cold approaches to get comfortable talking with people. © Start caring about stuff other than getting laid. (d) Put out a good online dating profile [see (a)]--OLD has its issues but you learn a lot by going on dates with women. (e) Work on yourself along the lines of getting over your shyness, taking things in stride, conversational skills ect. I don't think ANY of the Struggling Dudes tried the above.... You made very good points with this post, until you mentioned online dating. Personally, that is contradictory and confusing for the "struggling guy". If you are recommending for such guys to meet people in real life, do fun stuff (ie: sports, exercise, dancing, etc.), then they should attempt getting a date with a woman through these venues. For "struggling guys", online dating will be exhausting and fruitless. Link to post Share on other sites
ThaWholigan Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Agree with everything Jerk says. I've been saying it for eons now, I have even made the same thread in my sig . It will fall on deaf ears unfortunately so ultimately a waste of time. People will reach enlightenment when they are ready and if they never do, then sucks for them . But that's what happens when you don't listen..... 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Disillusioned Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 © Start caring about stuff other than getting laid. I can't agree more with you there... however, I've observed what I call the "prize" effect. A good many men (and some women) will not bother dating someone if they're not going to end up getting sex from it. To them, it's like eating a box of Cracker Jack and not finding a prize in the bottom. Link to post Share on other sites
KaliLove Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 I can't agree more with you there... however, I've observed what I call the "prize" effect. A good many men (and some women) will not bother dating someone if they're not going to end up getting sex from it. To them, it's like eating a box of Cracker Jack and not finding a prize in the bottom. Unfortunately for men, there are too many of you out there who are only looking for sex and who have made women feel insecure about sleeping with a guy too soon into dating him. You can blame those guys. Link to post Share on other sites
KaliLove Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) Chicks don't really need much advice (at least like the one given) because all they need to do is show up. LOL If only that were true. Again..it's easy for women to find sex. It's not easy for us to find relationships. There's an enormous difference. There are a lot of jerks out there. Edited July 1, 2014 by KaliLove 2 Link to post Share on other sites
carhill Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 It appears, from listening and reading, that the struggling dudes have difficulties with both relationship building and sexual relations as a bundled challenge, rather than discrete challenges. I recall, during the period of greatest struggle, I had to unlearn the natural getting to know/ love building process I had been socialized with, as the women of my demographic didn't respond to it. In essence, I had to 'unbundle' sex from emotional attachment and commitment where prior they had been tightly integrated. Frankly, I was simply too 'slow' for both the women of my demographic and in comparison to the men of the demographic with whom the women had the most experience. Once I unbundled and learned to pursue sex more and emotional attachment less, results improved. I think that underscores the imperative to both be sensitive to the realities of one's demographic and also willing to respond and adapt to those realities and accept that part of lessening struggle is the willingness to make changes within oneself, respecting that life is about constant change. Relevant to the 'state of the union', the two attraction areas where I believe I struggled the most were: (b) Conversational skills that are a good mixture of teasing and connecting. I focused too much on 'connecting' and without enough 'teasing'. (e) Someone who knows when to "make a move" I was too 'slow' in making a move. Sought inappropriate attachment and commitment. Too 'formal', when the predominant climate was 'casual'. Part of life! 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author Imajerk17 Posted July 1, 2014 Author Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) He's actually saying that taking a dancing class is a bad idea but that a struggling guy * nudge nudge* got a girlfriend for six months out if it Well, Actually, I said taking a dancing class is a GOOD thing. Go back and reread what I wrote. If I wasn't clear in my OP I'll say it outright here: Taking a dance class is a GREAT thing, and serious props to you somedude81 for doing it and keeping with it. Most guys just wouldn't even try it. And yes, you got a girlfriend out of it without having to do a single cold approach. Sounds like a win to me. It's not my intention to make anyone feel bad, but to spurn a few of you to actually do something instead of gripe about how hard you THINK you have it. And also to clear up some of the misinformation that is out there. Everything said in my OP has been said over and over on LS previously. I thought up examples of ineffective dating strategies seen here. That you can identify with too many of these, especially the asking for advice and then not doing ANYTHING with it, says a lot. KaliLove, I might write a thread about things I see women do that I think hurt their chances. As your end of generating attraction is more about "looks" it will be more about other stuff. Edited July 1, 2014 by Imajerk17 2 Link to post Share on other sites
clia Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Chicks don't really need much advice (at least like the one given) because all they need to do is show up. LOL Funny how there are tons of strategy tips for men "getting the woman", but very little strategy tips exist for women. I mean I'm sure they do (Cosmo Magazine), but you hardly hear of them. There is tons of dating advice and strategy tips out there for women every month in Cosmo and every other women's magazine on the market, on blogs, on Internet sites, and in thousands of books that have been published over the years (The Rules, He's Just Not That Into You, Why Men Love Bitches, Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus, etc., etc., etc.). There are numerous articles about how to get a man, how to keep a man, how to please your man in bed, and every other topic you can possibly imagine. As women, we are bombarded with this stuff starting at around age 12 or 13. You really can't be serious about hardly ever hearing about this. IMO, it's dating advice for men that is a relatively new thing. So yeah, most women do a lot more than just "show up." 4 Link to post Share on other sites
GravityMan Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 Here's another piece of advice. Stop telling those struggling to develop "game" but instead, to develop "confidence". Confidence is something that can be used in more situations than just trying to pick up women and these guys need more help developing themselves overall, rather than tricks on how to "pull" women. And once they become more well rounded and adjusted individuals, approaching and attracting women will become a natural side effect. Excellent point.... Funny thing what you will find when you attend a HS reunion as I did recently... Interesting observation.... Quite a few of the outcast nerds and introverts actually were there with very attractive and lovely wives....Within a few minutes of talking to these guys you can see what happened...They didnt all of a sudden develop some "game", schtick, or some other trickery... They still were the same, just older...But you did get the feeling like they were successful in their career and life...so the pieces just fell into place for them....and they seemed to be very happy. and some were actually still short as I remember..... Just goes to show...There is no "plan of attack"...the only plan is to be the best man you can be... Its as simple as that.. TFY Good posts. The overwhelming majority of men (90-95%) eventually manage to have at least one girlfriend, and I'd say at least two-thirds of them eventually found someone who's a good/great match. And for many of those 2/3's, it's just like TFY said...they were just good men who were being themselves, worked on themselves (career, education, personal life, social life, etc.), were happy and comfortable with themselves, were selfless, didn't take life too seriously all the time, and occasionally put themselves out there (not necessarily to find a woman, but to simply interact with society). In short, they were just good solid people who had or got their s**t together. Eventually the right woman crossed their path, usually when the men weren't really looking. Nothing was forced. One comment on confidence: I've heard the advice given before to insecure people to "fake" confidence. I dislike that advice. Confidence cannot be faked, and many people will see right through it. Those guys need to work on building genuine confidence. That cannot be done overnight, it will take time. Baby steps. Little "successes" here, stepping out of your comfort zone there and realizing that this unfamiliar territory ain't so bad...all that will contribute a little bit to confidence building. I sometimes wonder how the struggling and/or insecure guys got to be like that in the first place. Most guys who had decent upbringings don't have these issues. Link to post Share on other sites
serial muse Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 There is tons of dating advice and strategy tips out there for women every month in Cosmo and every other women's magazine on the market, on blogs, on Internet sites, and in thousands of books that have been published over the years (The Rules, He's Just Not That Into You, Why Men Love Bitches, Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus, etc., etc., etc.). There are numerous articles about how to get a man, how to keep a man, how to please your man in bed, and every other topic you can possibly imagine. As women, we are bombarded with this stuff starting at around age 12 or 13. You really can't be serious about hardly ever hearing about this. IMO, it's dating advice for men that is a relatively new thing. So yeah, most women do a lot more than just "show up." Was going to post this too. "How to get a man" advice for women is as old as the hills and is ubiquitous. Pop-culture-style dating advice for men is new, relatively. Link to post Share on other sites
Always Pondering Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 (edited) This is a very great post though, Imajerk17. I agree with every part of it and also: Here's another piece of advice. Stop telling those struggling to develop "game" but instead, to develop "confidence". Confidence is something that can be used in more situations than just trying to pick up women and these guys need more help developing themselves overall, rather than tricks on how to "pull" women. And once they become more well rounded and adjusted individuals, approaching and attracting women will become a natural side effect. Edited July 1, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Link to post Share on other sites
preraph Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 A very comprehensive well thought-out list. Add to that to stop trying to date women who are too good looking or too young for you, which seems to be one of the biggest issues, and I think you've covered all the bases. Link to post Share on other sites
Badsingularity Posted July 1, 2014 Share Posted July 1, 2014 You really can't be serious about hardly ever hearing about this. Actually it's pretty understandable seeing that most men don't read women's magazines or actively search for dating advice for women. Link to post Share on other sites
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