The State Of The Union for the Struggling Dudes

[hasaquestion]

There are also many couples where the guy is much better looking than the woman. In the vast majority of those she's overweight, he isn't.

 

The average guys are are just complaining that they can't get an average girl. I swear I'm not holding about for Kate Upton.

 

Well whatever you're holding out for, you aren't getting. So you need to either (1) Change yourself or (2) Change your expectations.

 

It wouldn't do me much good to hold out for a Lamborghini. So I have an '02 Accord.

[Imajerk17]

There are also many couples where the guy is much better looking than the woman. In the vast majority of those she's overweight, he isn't.

 

The average guys are are just complaining that they can't get an average girl. I swear I'm not holding about for Kate Upton.

 

I don't mean to sound snarky here, but I am wondering what you consider to be an "average guy" (as opposed to someone who is actually a "below average" guy with serious work to do).

Edited July 2, 2014 by Imajerk17

[hasaquestion]

I don't mean to sound snarky here, but I am wondering what you consider to be an "average guy" (as opposed to someone who is actually a "below average" guy with serious work to do).

 

Ah yes... "average". One of those funny fallacies which the human imagination dreams up.

 

The thing is, people always identify what they think is "average", and then strive to be better than that, to make themselves "above average".

 

But, if everyone individually strives to be "above average", striving to be above average really just makes you like the rest of the group... and mathematically speaking, average.

 

For an example, lets talk about working out. People often like to talk about working out as a way to distinguish or improve yourself. "Are you a poor average guy? Go to the gym and get muscles. Are you a poor average girl? Go to the gym and lose weight."

 

But if I look at my friend circles, both male and female... nearly everyone works out 3-4 times a week. So compared to that "sample size" of people, working out does not represent added value. It just makes you not one of the outliers who doesn't work out. I'm sure that example doesn't hold up over the population at large, but the principle it illustrates is important - average is not what you think it is, ever. You have to work hard and succeed JUST to be average.

 

Of course, this is all the more reason why you have to learn to be comfortable with yourself absent of external validation, and take responsibility for your own happiness.

[R3d]

What Struggling Dudes think women find attractive: (a) Height. (b) Looks. © "Game" (whatever that means).

 

They don't? It seems like that's exactly what they find attractive.

[Scales]

This thread is kind of a repeat of previous threads I have read over the last few months in LS. I wish I could scream this at the top of my lungs

 

Female to Male attraction is behavioral! It is based on behavior!

 

Look at all the female posters telling people about chemistry and being sexually attracted to "average" looking dudes. Looks for guys is just like a college degree. It allows you to get the interview. The interview is 80% of the work though. The interaction is everything for women. Men have to take the lead and go down a fun, sexually engaging, yet comfortable path. Most don't. Most go down a protect my own ego, get to know each other, very gentlemanly path. Its boring and not necessary. I like the OP's post, but allow me to make my own struggling men strategy guide.

 

1) Start working out. You can do pushups in your room. I don't care what you do, but change it from sitting for hours on end. OR fix your diet. Even better: both.

 

2) Get Fashionable. Mens fashion is easy as hell. A little research goes a long way. For now, get rid of 1/2 your graphic T-shirts (keep the event/lounging/work ones), buy some dark wash straight fit jeans (throw away light wash boot cut jeans), and stop wearing crocs and new balances around women.

 

3) Be Fun. Be Aggressive. This is where most guys lose all hope. They play it safe because they like a girl initially. They are afraid of blowing it. People can say whatever they want about "Game" and how silly it all sounds, but some of it is really on point. "To win a girl, you have to also risk losing her". Don't be afraid to make aggressive moves too soon. If you blow out, oh well. It's a lot better than regret. If you aren't a fun aggressive person, don't just be yourself. Being yourself is only optimal if you are already successful. If you are struggling, you have to make a change to yourself.

 

4) Go out all the time. By yourself even (NOT TO CLUBS). Never go to a club by yourself. Go to wine tastings, cooking events, community events, coffee houses, meet and greets, whatever is going on around you. Something nobody ever mentions is that environment is crucial to meeting someone. You need to find where the single women are. They usually go to only a few places and they go in numbers. Find a few good venues and stick to them. The type of person you like may not even be available to you. That is something you have to fix yourself. Or attempt to date outside where you live via OLD.

 

5) Never be frustrated, angry, or bitter. Everyone can rip your heart out and that's something you have to deal with. Don't put past experiences on to other people. If you are angry, insecure, or desperate in any way: You lose. This means if a girl insults you, you must have a clever way to deal with it. Getting upset is a 100% fail. Even if you are texting.

 

6 months you'll find somebody.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Scales

[KaliLove]

Lol really?

 

Next thing we know you'll say you're into short guys

 

How old are you anyways?

 

I think I'm the same age as you, or maybe a year younger, if I recall correctly.

 

Does it really shock you that not all women want perfect looking guys? Guess what..I don't like bad boys either. I stopped dating them when I turned 21 and didn't need them to buy me drinks anymore.

 

This is what EVERY female here has been trying to tell you for AGES. Everyone is different. Some women like muscles, some women like a soft belly we can lay on when we watch TV.

 

NOTHING is universal when it comes to attraction.

[Glinda.Good]

There are also many couples where the guy is much better looking than the woman. In the vast majority of those she's overweight, he isn't.

 

 

I KNOW! That's my whole point. This idea of "a 5 needs to date a 5" or fat people need to date each other, or whatever, is just … wrong.

 

People get hooked on each other for so many reasons. Being stuck on the physical is really being blind to so much.

 

I think that a whole bunch of people on LoveShack have a story to tell where they got a huge crush or fell in love with somebody who they never would have found to be objectively hot, but there was something compelling. I sure do, and more than one.

 

The thing is that when you get that crush, you start to find them very sexy.

 

I'm still standing up for the need for chemistry, with the caveat that it can and does OFTEN occur in the absence of traditional good looks.

[Scales]

I KNOW! That's my whole point. This idea of "a 5 needs to date a 5" or fat people need to date each other, or whatever, is just … wrong.

 

People get hooked on each other for so many reasons. Being stuck on the physical is really being blind to so much.

 

I think that a whole bunch of people on LoveShack have a story to tell where they got a huge crush or fell in love with somebody who they never would have found to be objectively hot, but there was something compelling. I sure do, and more than one.

 

The thing is that when you get that crush, you start to find them very sexy.

 

I'm still standing up for the need for chemistry, with the caveat that it can and does OFTEN occur in the absence of traditional good looks.

 

I think you missed his point. The amount of attractive women I have seen in my life walking around with an overweight guy (BMI 30%+) is still a whopping 0. I've been in more places than just America also. The reverse situation however can be seen sometimes.

 

I only bring this up because I'm a big advocate of social tiers. I don't think what makes one person attracted to another is completely subjective. People date similar people of value to them. It's not because we should, it's because we have no choice. Want to know the reasons men date below their paygrade? Because they hate being alone and because they need sex. That's it. There wasn't some magical fantasy where he somehow became in love when he least expected it. It was more like "She'll do because there is no one else and I need it". A lot of people in relationships have "settled" and it is a terrible foundation usually based on minimal activity and a lot of searching for the next monkey branch to grab on to.

 

For men it's different. We don't find a girl more and more sexy after a crush. We find them immediately sexy. The feelings or whatever comes after may increase our emotional investment, but it will not change how attractive we find you physically.

[Badsingularity]

The amount of attractive women I have seen in my life walking around with an overweight guy (BMI 30%+) is still a whopping 0. .

 

Guess you haven't seen my wife and I out and about.

Edited July 2, 2014 by Badsingularity

[somedude81]

I don't mean to sound snarky here, but I am wondering what you consider to be an "average guy" (as opposed to someone who is actually a "below average" guy with serious work to do).

 

Average looking face.

 

Average body.

 

Average personality. Not super outgoing but not that quiet either.

 

Average intelligence.

 

Has a place and a car.

 

When I say average, I pretty much mean normal.

 

I'm just a normal guy who wants a normal girl. Someone who is cute and friendly and has a healthy weight. That's it. Everything else will sort itself out.

[somedude81]

I think I'm the same age as you, or maybe a year younger, if I recall correctly.

 

Does it really shock you that not all women want perfect looking guys? Guess what..I don't like bad boys either. I stopped dating them when I turned 21 and didn't need them to buy me drinks anymore.

 

This is what EVERY female here has been trying to tell you for AGES. Everyone is different. Some women like muscles, some women like a soft belly we can lay on when we watch TV.

 

NOTHING is universal when it comes to attraction.

 

I'm 32, turning 33 in a few months

 

No I'm not that shocked, simply because I know that there is a small minority of women that don't really care about appearances. As long as the guy doesn't turn her off, he's fine. That's the kind of woman I want to date.

 

It's stupid how women even go through a bad boy phase. The smart and/or healthy girls don't.

 

BTW in that other thread we were talking about me having problems because I'm trying to date women who are in their early 20's.

 

The reason for that is that I don't feel I'm mature enough to date a woman older than 25 nor would I know why one would even want me. Younger women simply have lower standards for what is acceptable in a guy. A 27 year old woman will most likely want a guy who is working in a good job. A college age girl won't care about that. I also have very little relationship experience. Tell me that to you, a guy in his early 30's whose longest relationship was six months isn't a red flag.

[clia]

The reason for that is that I don't feel I'm mature enough to date a woman older than 25 nor would I know why one would even want me. Younger women simply have lower standards for what is acceptable in a guy. A 27 year old woman will most likely want a guy who is working in a good job. A college age girl won't care about that. I also have very little relationship experience. Tell me that to you, a guy in his early 30's whose longest relationship was six months isn't a red flag.

 

I disagree with this completely. Younger women may have lower standards for what is acceptable in a guy their own age. A 21 year old woman in college isn't going to expect a 21 year old guyn in college to make a lot of money or necessarily have a car or place of his own or to be established. For a guy your age, all of that is simply expected. You are not going to be judged at the same standard as a guy who is 21. When I was a 21 year old college girl, I thought men older than 30 were old, old, old. I couldn't even relate to them they seemed so old.

[somedude81]

I disagree with this completely. Younger women may have lower standards for what is acceptable in a guy their own age. A 21 year old woman in college isn't going to expect a 21 year old guyn in college to make a lot of money or necessarily have a car or place of his own or to be established. For a guy your age, all of that is simply expected. You are not going to be judged at the same standard as a guy who is 21. When I was a 21 year old college girl, I thought men older than 30 were old, old, old. I couldn't even relate to them they seemed so old.

 

You're assuming that all 21 year old women even know what to expect from a 31 year old. Or that 21 year old women will compare me to them at all.

 

BTW, when you are 21, how often did you actually interact with people over 30?

 

Don't forget that when I interact with girls, I'm not wearing a shirt that states my age. Girls are making the decision if they can relate to me based on what happens between us. Not my age. My ex didn't even know how old I was until after our first date, and she guessed seven years too low

[thefooloftheyear]

I disagree with this completely. Younger women may have lower standards for what is acceptable in a guy their own age. A 21 year old woman in college isn't going to expect a 21 year old guyn in college to make a lot of money or necessarily have a car or place of his own or to be established. For a guy your age, all of that is simply expected. You are not going to be judged at the same standard as a guy who is 21. When I was a 21 year old college girl, I thought men older than 30 were old, old, old. I couldn't even relate to them they seemed so old.

 

 

True....

 

And when women are younger, they tend to be less pragmatic and more flighty about who they date..Thats why its usually a Round-Robin, until they figure out that a guy with a cool car, the latest X-box, or 16 facial piercings isnt necessarily the best one to "settle down" with...

 

YMMV

 

TFY

[Anela]

It's stupid how women even go through a bad boy phase. The smart and/or healthy girls don't.

 

Some of us don't. I learned early on - very early - that they weren't the ones to go for. the one that was in my life, didn't appear to be "bad" at first, but he wanted to be. He was tall, good-looking, educated, employed, and whining about women not wanting him.

[Glinda.Good]

It's stupid how women even go through a bad boy phase. The smart and/or healthy girls don't.

 

Not necessarily stupid. Some people are on the lookout for excitement and some thrills, "bad boys" provide it. So do the legendary "hot mess" girls that plenty of guys fall for.

 

When these thrill seekers mature, it is likely that their idea of what makes a great partner may change significantly.

Edited July 3, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Fixed quote

[Anela]

You're assuming that all 21 year old women even know what to expect from a 31 year old. Or that 21 year old women will compare me to them at all.

 

BTW, when you are 21, how often did you actually interact with people over 30?

 

Don't forget that when I interact with girls, I'm not wearing a shirt that states my age. Girls are making the decision if they can relate to me based on what happens between us. Not my age. My ex didn't even know how old I was until after our first date, and she guessed seven years too low

 

You look your age, not theirs.

[KaliLove]

I'm 32, turning 33 in a few months

 

No I'm not that shocked, simply because I know that there is a small minority of women that don't really care about appearances. As long as the guy doesn't turn her off, he's fine. That's the kind of woman I want to date.

 

It's stupid how women even go through a bad boy phase. The smart and/or healthy girls don't.

 

BTW in that other thread we were talking about me having problems because I'm trying to date women who are in their early 20's.

 

The reason for that is that I don't feel I'm mature enough to date a woman older than 25 nor would I know why one would even want me. Younger women simply have lower standards for what is acceptable in a guy. A 27 year old woman will most likely want a guy who is working in a good job. A college age girl won't care about that. I also have very little relationship experience. Tell me that to you, a guy in his early 30's whose longest relationship was six months isn't a red flag.

 

So..basically you just called me dumb and unhealthy...that's pretty rude.

 

You're looking at this all wrong.

 

As a woman who has exclusively dated older men, I speak from much experience. If a girl dates an older guy it's generally because she's looking for maturity and stability, she's not looking for a guy who thinks he's 'on her level' maturity-wise.

 

Or, if they're shallow and immature, they date older men who are exceptionally attractive or rich.

 

The fact that you embrace your immaturity is more of a red flag to me than your inexperience, as is the fact that you only hang around college kids at your age. Grow up dude. Once you start to prove that you're making more of an effort to be an adult, you'll start to be more attractive to women who are out of puberty.

[Anela]

Quote:

Originally Posted by somedude81

 

 

Not necessarily stupid. Some people are on the lookout for excitement and some thrills, "bad boys" provide it. So do the legendary "hot mess" girls that plenty of guys fall for.

 

When these thrill seekers mature, it is likely that their idea of what makes a great partner may change significantly.

 

Right. Some of the smartest women I know, have been involved with "bad boys".

[Glinda.Good]

The reason for that is that I don't feel I'm mature enough to date a woman older than 25 nor would I know why one would even want me. Younger women simply have lower standards for what is acceptable in a guy. A 27 year old woman will most likely want a guy who is working in a good job. A college age girl won't care about that. I also have very little relationship experience. Tell me that to you, a guy in his early 30's whose longest relationship was six months isn't a red flag.

 

It's a red flag for younger women as well.

 

You might as well pay attention to what the women here tell you, at least on this matter. Every one of us has experience and opinions about older guys being after us when we were fresh young things.

 

Why not just be the best you can be and see who likes you for who you are?

[KaliLove]

Actually, the idea of a man who isn't super experienced and jaded and damaged and who doesn't play games is pretty appealing to me.

[El Brujo]

Actually, the idea of a man who isn't super experienced and jaded and damaged and who doesn't play games is pretty appealing to me.

 

Unfortunately, the reality is women invariably push such "appealing" men away.

[Imajerk17]

I realize my last post sounded meaner than I intended. Somedude81, an issue you face is that maybe 70% of women in their early 20s are going to write you off simply due to your age alone, no matter how attractive you are.

 

You need to put yourself out there as we have been advising you (and as you seem to keep ignoring). You also need to get out of school and get a job, which will go a long way towards you catching up w your peers and being a viable option to women in their late 20s. (I get that this is your last semester coming up. Finish up strong!)

Edited July 3, 2014 by Imajerk17

[clia]

You're assuming that all 21 year old women even know what to expect from a 31 year old. Or that 21 year old women will compare me to them at all.

 

Yes, I'm assuming you will be compared to other men. Most people are when they are dating. It's what helps us figure out if we are with the right person or not. To most 21 year olds, 31 seems old. That's all I'm saying. Would you have dated a 31 year old woman when you were 21? Also, aren't you almost 33?

 

BTW, when you are 21, how often did you actually interact with people over 30?

 

Probably as much as any other 21 year old. I had a social life, was in school part of the time, and went to bars. Guys in their 30s hit on me. There were some older guys in my classes. I had older TAs. I was also 21 when I graduated and started working full time, so I interacted with men of all ages in that regard. What does that have to do with anything?

 

Don't forget that when I interact with girls, I'm not wearing a shirt that states my age. Girls are making the decision if they can relate to me based on what happens between us. Not my age. My ex didn't even know how old I was until after our first date, and she guessed seven years too low

 

I know you don't want to believe it, but girls know you are older. And people typically guess low when asked to guess age, so as not to risk offending. That said, if your ex really thought you were 25 or so when she started dating you, finding out your true age could have caused some change in her expectations about what to expect from you.

[somedude81]

I realize my last post sounded meaner than I intended. Somedude81, an issue you face is that maybe 70% of women in their early 20s are going to write you off simply due to your age alone, no matter how attractive you are.

 

You need to put yourself out there as we have been advising you (and as you seem to keep ignoring). You also need to get out of school and get a job, which will go a long way towards you catching up w your peers and being a viable option to women in their late 20s. (I get that this is your last semester coming up. Finish up strong!)

 

Honestly dude, I really don't care that 70% of young women will write me off because of my age.

 

Don't forget that once upon a time I used to be 20, 21, and 22. Do you know how many dates I went on?

 

Zero.

 

I have had a much more positive response from young women at 28+ then I did at any other point in my entire life. Women just like me now a lot more than they did back then.

 

My last semester of college starts in September and it's my number two goal to get another girlfriend before I graduate. Number 1 is to pass my damn math class.

 

What I'd really like is some help in dating another girl before I leave that school.

 

Telling me that I'm going to struggle isn't helping. I already know things will be hard, they always are hard. What I want to know is how to make it work.