Initiation (in relation to dating...)

[Imajerk17]

I recently read something very interesting: One of the things that EVERY ancient culture had (so far as yet known at least) was some initiation process for boys to become men. It wasn't just a ceremony, boys of a certain age were put through an actual trial by fire by the elders that the boys had to successfully pass to be considered men.

 

We really don't have that these days in most of Western-style civilization. In modern culture, many of us can get safely to adulthood just by going through school and college, getting good grades, to end up making a good amount of money at a cushy desk job, without ever having to *successfully* pass through any trial by fire so to speak. And I think young men today are worse off for this.

 

I do think a guy who hasn't successfully passed through some sort of "initiation" feels a lack of masculinity that affect his success with women. It's like we don't have that fundamental confidence in ourselves having succeeded in something tough that challenged our manhood. It could be why women today wonder "where the real men have gone". I also think that it is also very empowering and attractive when a guy does go though "initiation". Maybe its a reason why women are drawn to men in uniform. Think of all these men had to pass through to wear the uniform. And what the uniform represents in the desire to serve and protect others. On a darker level, why women are drawn to Bad Boys. The Bad Boys have shown that they can survive in a tough environment, which makes a woman feel safe in a way that a sheltered Nice Guy cannot.

 

Meanwhile, I notice that there are a lot of movements that became wildly popular, as if we are trying use these movements to fill the void for lack of initiation, from Outward Bound to CrossFit (and other bootcamp-style fitness regiments) to even the PUA Community. Some are far less constructive than others of course in this regard.

 

Thoughts on this?

Edited July 13, 2014 by Imajerk17

[carhill]

The closest I could come to 'initiation' was our version of a 'walkabout' in Boy Scouts where one would be left at the trailhead with one 'buddy', generally an older and more experienced scout, and we'd have to make our way on our own in the wilderness with nothing more than our wits and what was on our back for two-three days. Map and compass, make our own fire, find food and water, make shelter. All the basics of survival. IIRC, my first experience with that was as age 11.

 

I found such experiences to be quite confidence inspiring, along with many other social activities/hobbies with older men but I don't recall any of that improving my experiences with girls or them finding the results any more attractive. I was, however, a more well-rounded young man for the experiences and don't regret them at all.

 

Between boy scouts and private school, I probably didn't wear street clothes regularly until my late teens. It was a treat to be 'out of uniform' during the summers, except on boy scout trips/at camp, etc. The next 'uniform' would be that of the typical 'blues' and coveralls of the machinist, a uniform I would wear for many years.

 

No doubt, attractive men are attractive in uniforms. IMO, it's the man who makes the uniform rather than the uniform that makes the man.

[Smilecharmer]

I agree that men who have other men to learn skills from and who achieve goals that are considered manly pursuits gain confidence and feel more pride in being men. Initiations give solidarity to men defending their village or temple. Many primitive cultures hold onto these rituals because they rely on hunting, fishing, building and farming to survive. I do think that being busy, achieving goals with their own hands is a huge turn on to some women. I certainly admire men who still know how to live off the land, who have many masculine interests and who have confidence because of strong and wise mentors who teach that strength comes from skill and wisdom, not aggressiveness and fear. Many young men now join gangs and follow a path of crime and violence in order to belong to a male dominated group and while I certainly don't agree with it, I can see how it would be a lure for young directionless and lost boys.

This is an interesting topic. I'm impressed.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Smilecharmer

[El Brujo]

OTOH this is good, because we're no longer going out and cracking our male rivals over the head with big wooden clubs and dragging women back to our caves by their hair.

 

But some guys won't stop wishing for a return of the bad old days...

[D.Mc.]

In ancient cultures if the male survived the initiation (usually literally being sent away from the group & told not to return w/out a "kill" or whatever the requirements was) you came back considered an adult (even if you were only 14 or so) & so you could "take" a female. The female would believe you were a competent male since you survived & were able to procure food.

 

Nothing like that today, college degrees, honors & high paying jobs don't "entitle" men to a mate in our advanced civilization. We don't have anything except possibly military service during an actual fighting war where the male comes back & the members of his social group understand he is now different. Women have nothing to go on when figuring out whether or not the man is competent. I'm not saying I want a guy who looks like Paul Bunyan to stride out of the woods w/a dead animal slung over his shoulder, toss me over his other shoulder & take me to his hand built log cabin in the wilderness, but there is no "ritual" for young men today that lets women know if the man is a good mate.

 

Think about it: sports athletes are just good physical specimens w/dedication to sport, CEO's are just smart & dedicated to their business, "players" are just good looking guys w/a talent for acting. None of them had to go out & prove themselves in any way that their society would judge them fit to be married & reproduce.

 

In a way I'm glad though, the pressure on women to accept a man based on his "provider" status is still with us. If there was some standard "test" for 18 y.o. men in our society today, I can imagine the pressure on single women over 30: they would be considered unworthy of a mate if they didn't accept any male who passed the test & wanted them as a wife.

[TouchedByViolet]

That's because trial by fire is extremely narrowly focused. Life is much much more than surviving a physical gauntlet and getting food. It is childish to think such a simple trial would make a person worthy of a female or the title of "man".... what is this a fraternity?

[gaius]

There's no one basic standard across all of society that makes you a man anymore but there are certainly still standards. Usually they go unsaid and are different for every family. Maybe you just haven't met whatever subtle expectation that was conferred on you.

[Haydn]

Football hooligans always had a badge of honour. (Whoops, another time).

 

If you could go into bandit country (Millwall), designer clothes aplenty.

 

Terrible, just terrible.

[El Brujo]

There is another side to this initiation thing... back in the days of sky-high infant mortality, women who could spit out loads of healthy babies were the most highly prized, while those who were infertile or had unhealthy or deformed babies were considered outcasts.

 

Still are, in some cultures such as some in Central America and Southeast Asia.

 

Nowadays, even an attractive woman who's had a hyst can be considered "hot" if she looks like a porn star.

[D.Mc.]

There is another side to this initiation thing... back in the days of sky-high infant mortality, women who could spit out loads of healthy babies were the most highly prized, while those who were infertile or had unhealthy or deformed babies were considered outcasts.

 

True enough: so unless the man asks the woman if her uterus is intact & functioning, there's really no "initiation" for women either & the man has nothing to go on to determine her worth for marriage & reproduction, well the "hip to breast ratio" thing but that's strictly physical/genetic.

 

To the OP: lets not forget that most ancient cultures used some form of marriage brokering/matchmaking/arranging. The males & females didn't really have to decide on their own, if they survived to reproductive age they were paired off by the elders. Since most teenagers today have no regard for their parents accumulated life experience, I doubt it would work for our times.

[Scales]

True enough: so unless the man asks the woman if her uterus is intact & functioning, there's really no "initiation" for women either & the man has nothing to go on to determine her worth for marriage & reproduction, well the "hip to breast ratio" thing but that's strictly physical/genetic.

 

To the OP: lets not forget that most ancient cultures used some form of marriage brokering/matchmaking/arranging. The males & females didn't really have to decide on their own, if they survived to reproductive age they were paired off by the elders. Since most teenagers today have no regard for their parents accumulated life experience, I doubt it would work for our times.

 

You're right. Not to mention the average age of marriage was 14 for girls. Not to mention ancient civilizations spent hundreds of years killing each other in massive bloody wars. We evolved from all this because it wasn't OK.

 

OP, Women have the right to choose a mate because they are people just like men. For thousands of years, that thought was denied and still is in parts of the world. If you want to prove yourself a man you only have to prove it to yourself in today's society. I am seriously secure in my masculinity, but I can't fix a kitchen sink and there are still things that scare me like hospitals and surgery. However, I'll be damned if someone tries to tell me I'm not a man. There isn't a special initiation for that. I just know I've accomplished enough in my life now that I don't have to listen to anyone trying to diminish my own masculinity. I've already proved it to myself and nobody can take that away.

[carhill]

I am seriously secure in my masculinity, but I can't fix a kitchen sink and there are still things that scare me like hospitals and surgery

 

I had to laugh because I was up at 4am this morning and happened to catch the kitchen sink trap leaking onto the floor and ended up rummaging around in the garage and found a new trap and fitted it and was having a cup of coffee with the cat by sunup. The funny part was I learned to fix sinks not from the 'man', but rather from my mother, who was mechanically inclined, as a child. So, you're right! Fixing sinks and masculinity have nothing to do with each other.

[Disillusioned]

Another sort-of initiation thing for us men is that we're expected to know how to cook with charcoal.

[Candy_Pants]

I've always been attracted to men who were "do-ers". Could fix cars, build houses, had rough hands from actual manual labor, knew how to get things done, or if they didn't know how they could find out. But society as a whole didn't teach me "this is manly". Growing up with men who were that way did.

 

As a woman I tried to immulate the women I grew up respecting.

 

Maybe as a society we need more role models in children's lives. And that falls upon us as individuals.

[Priv]

Not to mention ancient civilizations spent hundreds of years killing each other in massive bloody wars. We evolved from all this because it wasn't OK.

 

 

 

Ummm... that is no different from today. In fact, collateral damage (aka civilian casualties) have never been higher than it is in our era. Wars back than were in that regard a lot less brutal.

 

 

But if being a true man means killing some poor sods in assymetrical warfare in the name of so called freedom (or a pipeline) I gracefully decline. Not that you were arguing that btw.

[GoodOnPaper]

I recently read something very interesting: One of the things that EVERY ancient culture had (so far as yet known at least) was some initiation process for boys to become men. It wasn't just a ceremony, boys of a certain age were put through an actual trial by fire by the elders that the boys had to successfully pass to be considered men.

 

We really don't have that these days in most of Western-style civilization. In modern culture, many of us can get safely to adulthood just by going through school and college, getting good grades, to end up making a good amount of money at a cushy desk job, without ever having to *successfully* pass through any trial by fire so to speak. And I think young men today are worse off for this.

 

I agree, and this has been picked up on by many of the men's issues pop psych gurus. Most point to the book Iron John by Robert Bly -- interestingly, this was written in 1990, way back in my single days when "Nice Guy" problems were starting to be publicly discussed.

 

One thing that's critical in these initiation rites is the subsequent "validation" by the males in the the social group. Now, everyone tries to stress generating your own internal validation, and while you certainly need plenty of that, I think at our core there is a small but inescapable need for a "blessing" that comes from outside of us.

[fortyninethousand322]

I recently read something very interesting: One of the things that EVERY ancient culture had (so far as yet known at least) was some initiation process for boys to become men. It wasn't just a ceremony, boys of a certain age were put through an actual trial by fire by the elders that the boys had to successfully pass to be considered men.

 

We really don't have that these days in most of Western-style civilization. In modern culture, many of us can get safely to adulthood just by going through school and college, getting good grades, to end up making a good amount of money at a cushy desk job, without ever having to *successfully* pass through any trial by fire so to speak. And I think young men today are worse off for this.

 

I do think a guy who hasn't successfully passed through some sort of "initiation" feels a lack of masculinity that affect his success with women. It's like we don't have that fundamental confidence in ourselves having succeeded in something tough that challenged our manhood. It could be why women today wonder "where the real men have gone". I also think that it is also very empowering and attractive when a guy does go though "initiation". Maybe its a reason why women are drawn to men in uniform. Think of all these men had to pass through to wear the uniform. And what the uniform represents in the desire to serve and protect others. On a darker level, why women are drawn to Bad Boys. The Bad Boys have shown that they can survive in a tough environment, which makes a woman feel safe in a way that a sheltered Nice Guy cannot.

 

Meanwhile, I notice that there are a lot of movements that became wildly popular, as if we are trying use these movements to fill the void for lack of initiation, from Outward Bound to CrossFit (and other bootcamp-style fitness regiments) to even the PUA Community. Some are far less constructive than others of course in this regard.

 

Thoughts on this?

 

This is true. However, in ancient society lots of men did not survive this initiation. Maybe even a majority didn't survive.

 

While some men might feel a lack of masculinity in absence of this, at least they're alive when most would otherwise not be.

 

It's a good thing we live in a less violent, less volatile, and more survivable world. There's no going back to the old one, nor should there be.