Snooped, confronted girlfriend, it backfired

[Shimi]

We've been together for a few years. Some years ago, I stumbled upon (yes, it was really accidental) some flirty messages between my girlfriend and a coworker. She apologised a lot, seemed sincere, and I accepted. But I wasn't over it, and made her life hell with random jealous outbursts for a few weeks after that. I almost broke up with her several times.

 

Boundaries were clearly established, and we moved on.

 

Present day: I snoop - for no particular reason (I suppose I have some deep-rooted issues and it's something I'll have to work on with a therapist). I find something that bothers me: flirty, but not incriminating, social media messages between her and a new male coworker.

 

I keep a lid on it, because I realise that my snooping is probably a worse violation of trust than what I's uncovered. Or is it? For the next while I put it out of my mind.

 

Then one day, I suddenly can't, and I confront her about it.

Naturally, she accuses me of violating her privacy and having trust issues. She says they were joking around, that her coworker is good at talking nonsense, and that they tease each other all the time. She adds that they never hang out, etc. She gets angry and shows me all her messages between them.

 

Suddenly, I deflate like a balloon. My righteous anger and indignant feelings dissipate in the blink of an eye. I suddenly realise I'm the one at fault here.

I do find it strange that she refuses to apologise for something that clearly makes me uncomfortable and is reminiscent of her previous transgression, but her reaction is such that I believe everything she says.

 

The tables turned, my head spinning, I switch to "PUT OUT THE FIRES" mode. I screwed up, and quite possibly jeopardized our entire relationship over some silly suspicion. I admitted that I screwed up, that I was a fool, etc.

I tried to explain why I have these insecurity issues (stress, family problems, childhood trauma, etc.) and I repeatedly apologised.

 

So... my question is: what advice would you give my girlfriend if she had posted here giving her side of the story? (My boyfriend doesn't trust me, etc.)

 

What advice would you give me? It's an oft-quoted truism that "once the trust is broken, there's no going back". We managed to move past the previous thing, but this seems much more serious. Am I really a jealous lunatic? Does my current penitent attitude make sense?

 

Her coworkers kept saying to me how she always talks about me at work, how in love with me she seems to be, etc. She works hard to keep our relationship afloat despite my numerous personal failings. Basically, I seem to be the jerk here, and I wouldn't blame her for breaking up with me.

 

Obviously taking internet advice at face value is fraught with danger. It is by following such advice ("dump her, she doesn't respect you, she's playing you") - and by being an idiot - that I've ended up in this mess in the first place.

 

So keep in mind that you're only hearing my side of the story. But given the very limited information available to you, how would you qualify our situation? Does this seem salvageable? Does is strike you as an unhealthy (my bet would be yes) or toxic relationship?

 

She's completely justified in being pissed off, and her breaking up with me seems like a very real possibility.

But, and I can't ignore this, it bothers me that she brushed off my concerns so quickly, and refused to acknowledge that the way she interacted with her coworker may be construed as inappropriate.

 

I'm heavily invested in this girl, and I hope she can forgive me, but I seriously wonder if we'll ever be able to move past this even if we do make up.

 

From her perspective, I'm a snooping, distrustful scumbag.

From my perspective, she's right, but there is a nagging feeling that she didn't consider my point of view.

Then again, maybe my perspective isn't worth considering. Her anger seemed very genuine and I'm almost certain she was telling the truth.

 

I'm embarrassed by my behaviour.

I'm also embarrassed by how quickly I changed my tune (from "how could you? We talked about this already and I feel betrayed" to whimpering apologetically with my tail between my legs). How can she continue to respect me after this? How can I respect myself?

 

In any case, I have a lot of self-improvement to do.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Shimi

[BlueIris]

There’s a whole spectrum of opinions about balancing privacy and candor/openness, and on what’s acceptable flirtation and what’s not acceptable.

 

To me, it sounds like you have a naturally flirtatious girlfriend. Some people are that way, and some people love flirtatious, vivacious people, so they get in relationships with them but want them to put a damper on it outside the relationship. That’s what it sounds like to me- your girlfriend is sexy and flirty and it’s driving you nuts, and you want her to stop being that way. But that’s who she is.

 

Personally, I don’t date flirtatious men, or ladies’ men, and I didn’t suspect any of my partners because they were serious, open-book guys. My family and girlfriends are and were the same way. But that doesn’t mean that’s the correct or better way to be. Plenty would see it as boring.

 

So either make peace with her flirtatious, boundary-stretching ways or find someone who suits you better. You’re not married, haven’t got kids and probably haven’t comingled assets yet, so you have a lot of freedom to make a choice about the kind of life and relationships you want. It's a tough call if you love this about her on one hand and hate this about her on the other hand.

[ExpatInItaly]

Well, what did the messages say?

 

She betrayed your trust in the past, and you clearly haven't moved beyond it as much as you think you have. You don't need to over-explain or blame childhood trauma, family problems, etc. She carries a lot of responsibility for this issue. Having said that you chose to stay with her. You didn't snoop for no reason. You snooped because you still don't trust her, rightly or wrongly. She f*cked up in the past. You can either accept it or walk away.

 

You mentioned that her coworkers are always telling you how much she talks about you and loves you - in what context is this coming up? Do you socialize with them a lot or something? Or are you pointedly asking?

[Darren Steez]

Yup, you are absolutely in the wrong! Your girlfriend flirted or whatever, you caught her, now she's flirting again or whatever and you have found out.

I don't know maybe it's just me, work is work, exchanging phone numbers and texting about dinner yes, but mild, gentle flirting is a no no. It maybe harmless but it still is a form of sexual jousting if left long enough ramps up to you know what.

 

She's flirty and has a habit of giving out her number to co workers...that's not going to be good for you.

 

She may love you..and indeed you may have issues but it causes friction and sooner or later this is going to happen again.

[pteromom]

There are two possibilities -

 

1 - she is a cheater, just waiting for the opportunity to cheat. If this is the case, there is nothing you can do to stop her from cheating. You can snoop in her phone, make accusations, get jealous, and keep her under your thumb at all times, and she's still gonna cheat. It's still going to end badly for you.

 

2 - she ISN'T a cheater, but just enjoys flirting. If this is the case, you trying to force her to deny her natural personality isn't going to work. By nagging and being jealous, she just has to make sure she is more careful about how and when she flirts, so as not to damage her boyfriend's fragile ego. Makes you VERY unattractive.

 

I'm not saying flirting while in a relationship is right. You might find it very offensive and disrespectful. But obviously, SHE doesn't feel the same way. Whether that is for reason 1 or 2, I do not know. But flirting does not go against her values.

 

So you have to decide whether you can deal with her flirty nature. Because it WILL continue to happen. The only question if it will be happening in a situation where she flirts then goes home to a boyfriend she is happy to see at the end of the day, or whether she flirts and dreads going home because she's going to be nagged and distrusted.

 

Also, whether she's a 1 or a 2, you have ZERO control over her choices. The best thing to do is to let it go. React if you have something substantial to react to.

[Space Ritual]

Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing....

[Shimi]

Well, what did the messages say?

 

She betrayed your trust in the past, and you clearly haven't moved beyond it as much as you think you have. You don't need to over-explain or blame childhood trauma, family problems, etc. She carries a lot of responsibility for this issue. Having said that you chose to stay with her. You didn't snoop for no reason. You snooped because you still don't trust her, rightly or wrongly. She f*cked up in the past. You can either accept it or walk away.

 

You mentioned that her coworkers are always telling you how much she talks about you and loves you - in what context is this coming up? Do you socialize with them a lot or something? Or are you pointedly asking?

 

It was mentioned to me by several coworkers of hers during a work party we both attended. And no, I didn't ask, or prompt the comments in any way.

 

As for Darren's comment, they don't have each other's phone numbers, and the conversation I saw was on Facebook and was a group convo between her, the guy, and another female coworker. The female coworker in question - party to the offending chat - I know a little personally, and seems like an honest, straight arrow, traditional sort. If anything untoward were happening under her nose, I don't believe she'd be party to it.

 

If course I may be wrong. I realise a lot of my rationalisations stem from deep-seated fears. This is my first real relationship, but I'm 25. I have little confidence in myself.

People consider me to be handsome - one of the reasons I was able to attract my current girlfriend in the first place -, but I've never had much success with women (beyond those that would approach me, pursue me aggressively, and make the first move). Partly because I'm extremely introverted and quite shy, and have struggled with depression for most of my life. And even then their interest in me doesn't usually last long, because women seem to be repulsed by the contrast between my outward appearances and my actual personality.

 

Point is; I'd be the perfect target for a manipulator, as it's easy for people to pull the wool over my eyes. Even if, on some level, I realise what's going on, I'm such an obsessive navel-gazer that I could probably find a way to justify any behaviour, no matter how obviously harmful.

 

That's partly why I came here for advice. I fear being rejected and taken advantage of, which makes me distrustful, but at the same time, I have a tendency to be naive. It's a weird combination and it hasn't served me very well thus far.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Shimi

[Shimi]

I was afraid it may come down to incompatible personality types.

 

Anyway, to clarify things further: her social media sites, email and phone are always unlocked. She gave me the passwords to her computer, phone and other devices a long time ago.

 

(She, on the other hand, doesn't have access to any of mine. And I'd feel uncomfortable giving them to her because I'm a very private person. See? Lack of reciprocity right there. Total hypocrisy on my part, even.)

 

As for the message contents... mostly innocent banter, really. Only a few messages caused alarm bells to ring. I'll paraphrase them in a later post.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Shimi

[ExpatInItaly]

I was afraid it may come down to incompatible personality types.

 

Anyway, to clarify things further: her social media sites, email and phone are always unlocked. She gave me the passwords to her computer, phone and other devices a long time ago.

 

(She, on the other hand, doesn't have access to any of mine. And I'd feel uncomfortable giving them to her because I'm a very private person. See? Lack of reciprocity right there. Total hypocrisy on my part, even.)

 

As for the message contents... mostly innocent banter, really. Only a few messages caused alarm bells to ring. I'll paraphrase them in a later post.

 

Please do so. Without knowing what was said, it's almost impossible to say whether you have a valid reason to be concerned.

 

What did her previous flirty messages consist of?

[Shimi]

Basically a rather awkward artsy video of strangers snogging "for the first time" (turns out it was a viral marketing stunt and they were professional actors, but that's completely irrelevant), and then a seemingly joking invitation to make a similar video.

 

(To me the intention was irrelevant. It made me uncomfortable, full stop. Joking flirtation is still flirting, is it not? In fact, in my experience, a lot of flirting appears facetious.)

 

The coworker deflected with a joke, and nothing disquieting came up in subsequent messages.

 

Except I dimly remember talk about male nipples squirting milk, in another unrelated conversation. Lol? So yes, it does appear that they like to gross each other out (which is exactly what I was told, but it does little to soothe my concerns. I've read too many horror stories of husbands / boyfriends accepting the "but it was just a joke!" explanation at face value, only to find out later that they'd been made a fool of.

 

Also, my moral compass would prohibit me from doing anything of the sort. Probably. Would it? I'm not even sure. I've socially isolated myself for so long - because of depression - that I don't even know how I'd interact with a female friend/colleague anymore. When I was younger and stupider, after all, I did drunkenly cheat on a girlfriend. We hadn't established expectations of exclusivity yet, but it was still wrong. So maybe I'm just taking the moral high ground because I don't interact with people all that much nowadays, and therefore have no opportunities to put my 'values' to the test. Perhaps if I had an attractive female colleague or friend, I'd flirt dangerously. But that's hypothetical and therefore totally beside the point.

 

I know the types of games that are played when attraction comes into play, and this would fit the bill. I don't necessarily find the 'joke' angle had to swallow, but I do find it ****ty that my long term partner would adamantly refuse to admit that these interactions may be interpreted as *not* innocuous... and instead focus on the snooping aspect.

 

I don't think I was manipulated with blame-shifting, because that would require a special kind of remorseless sociopath.

 

But, critically, it looks like despite our previous discussions, we have some irreconcilable differences in what kinds of behaviour we deem acceptable.

 

I also feel like a fool for not pressing my concerns, and instead cowering in fear, and grovelling for forgiveness, at the first sign of resistance. (Her righteous fury really took me aback and I immediately second-guessed myself.)

 

My self-respect really took a plunge as a result of this whole episode.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Shimi

[Shimi]

If I am being manipulated, it's evil to such a degree that I can't seriously contemplate the possibility.

 

The argument, as far as I'm concerned, is unresolved. And yet I've already apologised, so going back and opening up that can of worms again is a guaranteed path to an immediate breakup.

 

So what remains is doubt, a little resentment, and (some additional) self-loathing. It's probable that these feelings will fester. And no matter what she says, I find it hard to believe she hasn't lost a bit of respect for me as a result of this.

 

Doesn't bode well for the future.

 

I forgot to mention that her reaction, this time, was the polar opposite to the last. When I first confronted her about flirty messages a few years ago, she was the one grovelling and admitting she was out of bounds. Now, The roles are reversed. But the scenario is the same.

 

What's changed? Is it the fact that she's tired of being snooped on and accused of disloyalty?

 

What a quagmire.

[aliveagain]

If I am being manipulated, it's evil to such a degree that I can't seriously contemplate the possibility.

 

The argument, as far as I'm concerned, is unresolved. And yet I've already apologised, so going back and opening up that can of worms again is a guaranteed path to an immediate breakup.

 

So what remains is doubt, a little resentment, and (some additional) self-loathing. It's probable that these feelings will fester. And no matter what she says, I find it hard to believe she hasn't lost a bit of respect for me as a result of this.

 

Doesn't bode well for the future.

 

I forgot to mention that her reaction, this time, was the polar opposite to the last. When I first confronted her about flirty messages a few years ago, she was the one grovelling and admitting she was out of bounds. Now, The roles are reversed. But the scenario is the same.

 

What's changed? Is it the fact that she's tired of being snooped on and accused of disloyalty?

 

What a quagmire.

 

There was no real consequence, you backed down, she has the power.

[ExpatInItaly]

There was no real consequence, you backed down, she has the power.

 

This. OP, you're making the situation a lot more complicated than necessary. There is no "quagmire." You don't need to twist this into some evaluation of personal morals and value-testing. She is flirting with a colleague, she got busted, you feel betrayed. Again.

[Shimi]

So you're saying I *am* being manipulated, and that this is a power game to her... that she craves male attention outside the bounds of a relationship... wants to eat her cake and have it too, that sort of thing?

You're saying that people will pounce and take advantage of you at the first sign of weakness? Or that this particular woman does.

Basically the point is that I'm being played, and that she's not who I think she is?

 

Wow. That is beyond depressing.

[Grumpybutfun]

Time to have a face to face talk where you both agree on boundaries starting with flirting in the workplace and social media etiquette acceptable to both. You two are in a long term relationship so nothing should be off the table for concern or negotiation.

Maybe spend some time trying to pinpoint why your internal view of yourself is out of alignment with your external appearance. Bad self esteem isn't healthy for you. Also, in my experience there is no such thing as snooping in a transparent healthy long term commitment. There should be nothing to hide.

Good luck,

Grumps

Edited July 17, 2014 by Grumpybutfun

[Shimi]

Time to have a face to face talk where you both agree on boundaries starting with flirting in the workplace and social media etiquette acceptable to both. You two are in a long term relationship so nothing should be off the table for concern or negotiation.

Maybe spend some time trying to pinpoint why your internal view of yourself is out of alignment with your external appearance. Bad self esteem isn't healthy for you.

Good luck,

Grumps

 

I'm currently abroad so the whole argument was conducted via email.

She recently sent me a message saying she loves me, misses me, and that her opinion of me hasn't changed, etc.

 

Obviously this isn't a satisfactory resolution so we will have to have a conversation face to face when I return (in two weeks! An eternity.) Except now I feel like I have to walk on eggshells. And that I missed - or rather misused- the window of opportunity to have a rational talk about this issue. How can I bring it up again without making another visit to drama city?

 

Also, Grumpybutfun, I thought "trying to pinpoint why" my internal view of myself is the way it is, was part of the problem? That it made me look weak, and gave her the leverage necessary to turn the tables on me, in order to make this whole thing look like *my* problem instead of ours...

Edited July 17, 2014 by Shimi

[Grumpybutfun]

I'm currently away on work so the whole argument was conducted via email.

She recently sent me a message saying she loves me, misses me, and that her opinion of me hasn't changed, etc.

 

Obviously this isn't a satisfactory resolution so we will have to have a conversation face to face when I return. Except now I feel like I have to walk on eggshells.

 

But I thought "trying to pinpoint why" my internal view of myself is the way it is, was part of the problem? That it made me look weak, and gave her the leverage necessary to turn the tables on me, in order to make it look like *my* problem instead of ours...

 

IMHO, until you get your self esteem issues worked out, you aren't going to set healthy boundaries or standards for your relationship. If her behavior bothers you, it is an issue in which you both need to work on. You know that niggling little "off" feeling you are getting about you having to grovel? That's a natural red flag telling you your perception and reaction is out of balance. She doesn't need to flirt with coworkers and if you are both in a committed long term relationship with each other, transparency is a must and the word "snooping" no longer exists. I've been married a long time and trust is not an issue because we have set boundaries with consequences. We both know exactly where we stand on issues like workplace flirting, emotional affairs, physical affairs, etc. Blatant transparency is a must, and is easy if you know the consequences to bad behavior. My wife and I do not text or call opposite sex people at work for anything other than professional reasons. That was what we agreed on to keep our marriage and commitment affair proof.

Best,

G

[Shimi]

She denies that flirting ever took place. Clearly an issue.

 

When I asked her how she'd feel, she side-stepped, by saying she'd never look into my private communications in the first place... that she wouldn't leave these things out in the open if she thought she was doing something wrong... that it was a joke... that if my interpretation of said joke was enough to question our entire relationship over, that we had some serious issues... that if, after seeing their entire message history, I still thought of it as flirting, she had nothing more to say to me.

 

None of her points address the problem I brought up. They strike me as deflections.

 

Pending the self-improvement bit, we need to have the face to face conversation you mentioned. I should make this clear to her now, through email. But I don't want to be confrontational. Any tips on how to re-open the conversation without it devolving into another accusation-laden argument?

Edited July 17, 2014 by Shimi

[Grumpybutfun]

I'm a natural negotiator so I concentrate on needs being met and compromise for expectations. This is what I need so how do we negotiate for me to get that need met so we both feel heard and valued. After a compromise is met, ask what her needs and expectations are. Might be best to write your needs and expectations down in advance. Always remember to negotiate with love and compassion. This isn't about getting your way but about both of you getting what you need. This takes practice so don't expect negotiations to go smoothly at first. Take a break if things get heated, get your thoughts together, concentrate on treating her like someone you love, then come back to it. Things I wish I had done early on...do not shout or argue during negotiations and boundary setting. Kindness and calmness will get you much more than emotional outbursts.

Good luck,

Grumps

[PegNosePete]

So you're saying I *am* being manipulated, and that this is a power game to her... that she craves male attention outside the bounds of a relationship... wants to eat her cake and have it too, that sort of thing?

You're saying that people will pounce and take advantage of you at the first sign of weakness? Or that this particular woman does.

Basically the point is that I'm being played, and that she's not who I think she is?

 

Wow. That is beyond depressing.

No need to be so melodramatic. She did wrong by flirting with a co-worker. She got busted. She did what she could to work her way out of trouble rather than take responsibility, and you backed down.

 

Sending a video of people snogging and saying that we should try this, is crossing a boundary. Especially with her history of doing it before. It seems she is never going to change. So you have to ask yourself, is this the kind of thing you are prepared to accept? If not then may be time to move on. It seems discussions have already been tried and failed.

[ExpatInItaly]

So you're saying I *am* being manipulated, and that this is a power game to her... that she craves male attention outside the bounds of a relationship... wants to eat her cake and have it too, that sort of thing?

You're saying that people will pounce and take advantage of you at the first sign of weakness? Or that this particular woman does.

Basically the point is that I'm being played, and that she's not who I think she is?

 

Wow. That is beyond depressing.

 

Good heavens. Keep it simple and stick to the facts.

 

She is "joking" about kissing a guy who isn't you. This isn't the first time a boundary was crossed. You already knew who she was, because she showed you that before. Now you have to decide if that's acceptable to you or not. She clearly thinks it's fine.

[rewl]

She sounds like a girl who will never learn from her mistakes (if she even recognises they are mistakes that is). You can't change those type of girls, either put up with her behaviour or dump her. There is unfortunately no middle ground.

[Shimi]

Fair enough. Thanks.

I knew what had to be done before I posted here. I was just hoping to be convinced otherwise.

[marcjb]

So you're saying I *am* being manipulated, and that this is a power game to her... that she craves male attention outside the bounds of a relationship... wants to eat her cake and have it too, that sort of thing?

You're saying that people will pounce and take advantage of you at the first sign of weakness? Or that this particular woman does.

Basically the point is that I'm being played, and that she's not who I think she is?

 

Wow. That is beyond depressing.

 

Look up "projecting blame". That's what she's doing with you to try and justify her actions. The part where you failed was when you backed down so easily after and accepted all the blame on yourself, but that's easy to have happen when you don't understand the concept of the projection that is taking place. That part has happened to the best of us, just keep things in mind for your future relationship, because it doesn't sound like this one will work out with her cake eating behavior.

Edited July 17, 2014 by marcjb

[Chi townD]

She denies that flirting ever took place. Clearly an issue.

 

When I asked her how she'd feel, she side-stepped, by saying she'd never look into my private communications in the first place... that she wouldn't leave these things out in the open if she thought she was doing something wrong... that it was a joke... that if my interpretation of said joke was enough to question our entire relationship over, that we had some serious issues... that if, after seeing their entire message history, I still thought of it as flirting, she had nothing more to say to me.

 

None of her points address the problem I brought up. They strike me as deflections.

 

Pending the self-improvement bit, we need to have the face to face conversation you mentioned. I should make this clear to her now, through email. But I don't want to be confrontational. Any tips on how to re-open the conversation without it devolving into another accusation-laden argument?

 

 

 

Yeah, I call BS on that one. If a girl thinks something isn't right in the relationship, she's gonna look. And if the situation was reversed, she would go high and to the right. I don't know many women that wouldn't.

 

 

Don't feel bad for snooping. If you felt that something might be off, then you have every right to find out what's going on. BUT! On the flipside, she should be afforded that right as well. You withhold your passwords from your girlfriend. You're in a partnership therefore, there shouldn't be any secrets and you should be transparent with each other. So, maybe she should have your passwords. As someone on here already wrote people with nothing to hide, hide nothing.

 

 

Unless you do have something to hide. Therefore, you're looking at her stuff to find anything to pin on her to ease any guilt you might be having.

 

 

Just a thought.