And then there are 'just' friends...

February 25, 2005

One of the 'friends' I asked about the hottie sent this in response to an email yesterday. We have been each other's absolute, unequivocal best friend for thirty-five years, and we have discussed this issue to death many times. My problem is, I have no physical attraction to him at all, and can't tell him that. Moreover, our lifestyles would clash because I am much more active and physically fit than he is and his laidback lifestyle gets on my nerves even when he comes to visit for a week. We wouldn't work on so many levels, but he seems genuinely convinced that it would be nirvana. I always tell him he only loves me because he has never had to actually live with me or deal with me daily. I was explaining that I have no interest in a serious long-term relationship with anyone right now, how I love having my life to myself, and I am growing increasingly fond of having my bed to myself. I know he meant nothing at all by this because it is an open subject that we have, as I said, discussed to death already. But I do feel a little guilty that I can't make his fondest wish come true...

"I get where you're coming from. I've been solo for *so* long now

that, despite a rather constant intense desire to get ravenously laid,

I really don't want to have to deal with the inevitable baggage that a

new person would introduce into my life. I *like* my privacy (what

there is of it) and I like sleeping in my own bed... alone.

But a new relationship? Hah! I found myself thinking about just that

the other day and I realized I don't really want to go through that

'getting to know someone' phase. I want that to be *done*. I want to

already *know* that someone isn't a psycho-bitch and that she's not

going to call me at 2am because she's freaking out over something I

said 2 weeks ago. I want someone to already *know* that I'm not a

psycho stalker and that she doesn't have to hold me at arms'

length for the first month, year, whatever. <sigh>

This isn't honestly yet another plea for your affections, but you

wonder why I've been so adamant over the years about you and I.

That's it. We're already at the place where I want a relationship to

be. I know 99% of all your **** and I love you in spite (or perhaps

because) of it. I'd venture the same is true in the reverse.

Perhaps I"ll never be satisfied in another relationship because what

I'm really looking for is you, and we know how unique and special you

are.

Of course, then it's possible that you know *far* too much about me to

ever be truly interested, much like the guy before this one. Having seen my

darker side on more than one occasion can't be all that endearing, at

least from a romantic standpoint."

So why can't I just love this guy like he wants me to? Geez. I already know he adores me. And I fear that the second to the last paragraph explains what has kept him from finding a good relationship for all of our adult years.

February 25, 2005

You don't love him. Be straight with him and let him go. He needs to know that you don't think of him like *that*, so he can get over you and find someone else. If he really is besotted with you, you may have to cut him loose for a while until he has gotten over this infautution.

I know you want to please him and make him happy. However you know really that it isn't going to work. Getting his hopes up will only lead to heartache (and possibly loss of a friend) later on

February 25, 2005

Oh, I have told him all of this a million times over the course of 35 years of friendship. There is no reason to reiterate any of it. I have never, ever led him on or given him *any* reason to hope. He's had many girlfriends over the years, all of whom I have known and hoped would be 'the one' for him so that he would be happy. This isn't something that has just cropped up, believe me. I love him to pieces and our friendship is my longest-standing one. As a matter of fact, he was the best man for my ex at our wedding almost twenty-five years ago. He has been a presence in the lives of my family, strictly as a friend, to the degree that my kids consider him an uncle. When my marriage ended, both my ex and my son assumed this guy and I would get together and offered their blessings if I did. He, however, sired a son during a brief fling eight years ago and now lives in another state to be near his son, so there's that, too.

Bottom line is that he knows exactly how I feel, and occasionally brings this up, probably just to see if I've changed my mind. I haven't. I only wish I could. Part of the problem is that I can't find anyone I want to be with, long term, and this revives his insistence that *we* would be perfect together if I would just stop being so stubborn and see it. I consistently tell him it wouldn't work and that I am not willing to risk our friendship over it. Period.

Probably I just posted this to see if anyone had any idea how something like this could work. I know it can't. I can picture, a couple of decades from now, that the two of us will probably be sitting in rocking chairs, side by side, at the same nursing home, comparing notes and being best friends...

February 25, 2005

Hope is a strong thing. As long as its fed, no matter how little - it will continue to thrive and grow. As long as you remain in this friendship, no matter how adamant you are about it - his hope for a relationship with you will continue to be there. Its feeding on your mere presence. There really isn't much you can do in a situation like this. You can remain friends, but just be aware that it probably never was 'just friends', and it probably never will be either. That's a very strong hope for love that guy has there. Thirty five years! Wow. I expect he'll spend the rest of his years on the same path, if he has no motivation to leave it.

I am not willing to risk our friendship over it.

I always wondered about when people say that. What is it that you would be afraid of risking? What is it that you are looking for in a long term relationship? Where does this guy not add up? A solid relationship is built on a firm foundation of (true) friendship - if it isn't, all you have is "sex, "love", romance and roses" that once faded - have nothing supporting them to sustain the relationship. Is is that you aren't attracted to him and don't feel those 'romantic sparks'?

February 25, 2005

Wow, 35 years...I can see myself in the same scenario someday...I'm still in highschool though. My girlfriend recently broke up with me, saying that that "feeling" was gone, but we remain great friends. She calls me everyday to talk, we hang out all the time...I told her when we broke up just how crazy i was about her. Those feelings haven't changed, if anything they have increased with the time we have been apart. I know how your friend is feeling.

I can't however tell you to remain friends or to try a relationship or really give you any answers. I don't understand where you are coming from though, just like i dont understand my friend. She is young though, i can see her not being ready to find "the one" or whatever, wanting to see what else...er, who else, is out there. You however, have been friends with this guy for over 35 years...and he still loves you immensly!! Many marriages don't even last half of that time, and many fade with time. You have here someone thatknows you better then possibly anyone else, someone who loves you "in spite (or perhaps because) of" your flaws, someone who would do anything for you, who cares about you more then anything else, who views your best interest as his...What about that don't you like? What is so terrible about this guy that you don't want to deepen your relationship?

Once the romance fades and the sparks begin to die, so do most relationships because they don't have anything deeper. That's perhaps why so many marriages don't last. The trick is to find someone who you like as a person, who understands you, who really doesnt give a crap if you look like a supermodel or an actress(he thinks your beautiful just because your you), I don't know...you need to ask yourself if this is how he feels about you, I was basing it on how i feel about my "ex", but we are in the same predicament and he clearly feels simialr, or stronger(35 years!)

What is it about this guy that is holding you back then talking it farther than friendship? Try figuring that out. Is he that bad a guy? He obviously loves you sooo much...I said I don't understand you or my old girlfriend...that was because i don't see what it is thats so bad with him or me, that you wouldn't want to take it farther...AS i said I can't offer any answers, i can actually only give more questions i guess...

February 27, 2005

You guys ask a lot of interesting questions that I may or may not be able to answer.

Maybe first and foremost, I’m really not attracted to him. My ex was not that attractive either, but I convinced myself that loving him wasn’t dependent on being all that attracted. I’ve since really lost any pretense I ever had of being okay with someone who isn’t hot. A guy has got to be hot for me to be interested. I spent way too many years with someone who did absolutely nothing for me in that department, and since I have a second chance in life, I choose to find someone attractive to spend my time with. I know. I am so shallow. But given that I can only do this lifetime once, I plan on at least enjoying the visuals. ;-)

I am very active (but not hyper-active) and spend most of my time outdoors, usually gardening, or swimming, or working on my house. His idea of a perfect day (weekend) is to sit in front of his computer all day letting me cook, clean, and run errands. Of course he loves me. When he comes to visit I gladly do all those things because he is my guest. I’d choke the life out of him within two weekends if we lived together. We do cook together, and that’s fun, but I’d weigh three hundred pounds inside of a couple of months. His main interest is computers. They bore me to tears. As long as mine works and gets me online, I couldn’t care less how many gigs it is or if it has a video card, or whatever. He lives for stuff like that and I can’t even talk about it because I have no interest in learning. Find me a program that designs my garden, decorates my house and tells me how to cook a fantastic healthy meal, and I’m all over it, but that would have to be in the mornings and evenings when the outdoors isn’t calling me. But he could care less if he ever sees the sun. He’s also got health problems that interfere with his sex drive – I don’t.

Despite the fact that he and I connect on many levels, we don’t on too many others. There is just nothing that would make that okay. Well, maybe in another twenty years or so, if I slow down, if my libido settles down and what I really need is a quiet companion to sit on the porch with (as long as he could have his wireless laptop), this would be okay. There is nothing to say that it won’t ultimately turn out that way, but right now I am enjoying myself for the first time in a very long time and I don’t plan on settling down for a long time, if I ever want to. Right now I have my life back, and I like it. I don’t want a long-term entanglement.

Answering questions:

What am I afraid of risking? Well, I just know I am nearly impossible to live with. A few weeks of trying to live with me would drive us both nuts. I am neater than he is, for one thing. His sloppiness would drive me insane. He’d think I was being a PIA if I nagged him to pick up after himself and I would go nuts tripping over his stuff. It’s just the dumb, mundane daily life things that I may not ever be able to deal with with another person ever again. The risk is that when you get together with someone, the things you find annoying when you visit with them get multiplied a thousand-fold when you live together long-term, and I would end up ruining our great friendship by probably never being happy because of the stupid daily crap. It’s been my experience that daily contact eventually breeds resentment. I don’t want to do that to our friendship.

What am I looking for in a long-term relationship? I’m not looking for a long-term relationship. See above. Who needs it? Further, I’m very accustomed to and like living only with my daughter, which is effectively alone, and when she graduates high school and gets on with her life, I will enjoy living completely alone.

Baffled, you’re adorable and wise beyond your years. Luckily, you’re young enough that you might hook up with someone while you’re both young and manage to craft a life together that works. I think I am just too old to care about that any more. I raised my family, did the “good wife” thing for a long, long time, and I just really don’t have any interest in that any more. I think it’s very valuable when you have a family, but in my case, the kids are raised, the family scene is over, and I have no need for that kind of situation again. Some people manage to get through all that stuff and still be partners, but that wasn’t the case for me, and I am perfectly okay with that. I do realize this guy loves me as much as I could ever hope anyone would. I know that.

I guess I really don’t expect that I will ever meet someone that I can get along with in that close quarters for an extended period of time, and I’m also at a point, probably because I have raised three kids who sucked up every moment of my life for twenty-two years, where I just want my space and to be left alone most of the time. A little excitement from time to time is a good thing (like a FWB would be), but I just can’t do “full-time” again.

Where he doesn’t add up is in all the things I’ve mentioned, and one thing I haven’t mentioned: he is an only child. That may sound silly, but when you are an only child, you become accustomed to being the center of attention, and to having things the way you want them. On some level, I think that is a very healthy thing to an extent. Unfortunately, I was the oldest child of six, and I can’t even begin to imagine seeing life the way he sees it. He spends his money as he wishes, indulges himself to the extreme, can’t discipline himself to even pay his bills first, and those issues are huge with me as I am extremely well self-disciplined. At this point in my life, I guess it’s fair to say that I want to be the one being indulged. I am just tired and I want someone to be really, really nice to me. That’s all. He thinks he is, and he really probably is as nice as he can possibly be, but it isn’t enough for me. He misses stuff because of the way he is, and I just can’t deal with it. The wet towels on the bathroom floor, the luggage strewn all over the room, the sense that as soon as I am finally finished talking, he is dying to get back to his computer, but if he needs to talk, he’d just as soon I drop everything I am doing and give him my rapt, undivided attention. I know these are subtleties, but I am sensitive to that stuff, and I’d rather live alone than feel the pressure of that stuff right now.

Maybe some day I’ll get over all of this. My ex was a certifiable nut-case who changed the way I view life and the way I perceive relationships. I have no idea if I will ever be comfortable in a relationship again, and I just do not want to deal with someone else’s needs and expectations. I don’t ever want to be in a relationship where we are so complacent and we’ve been together so long we have nothing to talk about when we go out. Yech! That’s not the case with this guy and never has been, and I don’t want it to get to that point, either. A lot of what we talk about is his relationships with other people and mine with others, too. We really are each other’s best friends in that respect. We bounce thoughts off each other all the time. “What should I do? What do you think he/she meant by this? I need a reality check.” It’s awesome to have a guy I can talk to about that stuff. And I have always been his go-to girl to figure out the women in his life.

Does all of this make sense? I am so sorry it’s such a long answer.

February 27, 2005

Makes sense to me. Sometimes against a person's best wishes a relationship just can't happen. Have you told him all these things that you said here? Would it help to explain it to him in these specific terms as to why it just can't happen?

February 27, 2005

Eh... There's probably not much point in bringing up stuff that would most likely really hurt him. We are fine as things stand now, and as testament, here's an excerpt from his response to my email wherein I told him we just wouldn't work (again).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Oh m'dear, mdear....

35 years on and you *still* don't get it. <chuckle> I am *quite

aware of what a raving bitch you can be and sometimes are. Trust me.

(However, I'm also quite sure that you *think* you're far more of a

bitch than you really are, but that's a topic for a much longer

discussion). I also think you're confusing bitchiness with good

old-fashioned stubborness. You *are* incredibly stubborn, but I

think that's the Yankee in you. No matter. I've got a stubborn

streak in me that's legendary so we're still a good match, on whatever

level.

Again... I'm not trying to 'make my case'. I have completely given up

on the idea that you and I will eventually get together. I've always

thought (and will probably go to my grave thinking so) that we'd have

made an excellent match if we could both just get over ourselves. I

fell head-over-heels in love (and lust. Oh, yes. Definately lust)

with you the moment I met you in Paul's basement and it hasn't wavered

one iota over these past 35(?) years. I doubt it will change much.

What has changed is our situation (I couldn't leave here now for

anything. <sigh>) and the final acceptance that you are as adamant in

your feelings/position as I am in mine. Whatever works. It hasn't

affected our friendship over the years (at least, that I could see)

and that's what's important. Perhaps the next lifetime. <shrug>

February 27, 2005

If it were he asking the forum for advice on how to get your love for hum to become romantic, I would suggest he try withdrawing from his relationship with you (not completely, but nearly so). You will NEVER feel a spark of sexual attraction for him as long as he continues to treat you in the same manner as has gone on for years.

Why would you?? You get all the benefits of his support and love now without having to give up the hope or privilege of pursuing / dating the next stud of the month / year / whatever. Or if you like: you are free to just sleep alone. In fact your really have it good because every year or so it sounds like he pursues you this way, which acts a complete ego validation that you're a desirable woman (allowing you to post to a public forum that you DO have someone's undying affection)

Nevertheless, I'm certain your concern for this man is genuine. that said let's look at some points you bring up when you say...

"

My problem is, I have no physical attraction to him at all, and can't tell him that. Moreover, our lifestyles would clash because I am much more active and physically fit than he is and his laid back lifestyle gets on my nerves even when he comes to visit for a week

"

WHY CAN'T YOU TELL HIM THIS EXACTLY ? surely the one time let down (harsh as it may be for him) is better that years of false hope. Could it be that you can't tell him because you fear jeopardizing his dedication to you? If so,then that is deceit not compassion.

And all that about lifestyles clashing? That is a BIG RATIONALIZATION created after the fact in response to you having no sexual feelings for him. Let me ask you, have you ever got involved sexually with someone who you KNEW to have major incompatibilities with you? I think most of us have. We come up with reasoning to support what our bodies and feeling want us to do - not the other way around.

WHAT YOU ARE REALLY TELLING US when you say you're much more active/athletic than he is that you need a stronger, more manly person to make you aroused, and the fact the he is hanging out at your place secretly or not-so -secretly hoping for sex with you all the while passively playing the best-friend role is actually a big turn-off, despite how nice it is platonic. (You see how that has nothing to do with lifestyle and everything to do with what turns you on & off? )

Lastly, don't concern yourself as to whether or not YOU are "what has kept him from finding a good relationship" for all of his adult years. It is not you, it is him. Other women have picked up the same traits that you have about him and that is why he has failed elsewhere. He just keeps coming back to you because you have found his "friendship" or adoration worthwhile enough to keep him in your life, which keeps him wanting more from you.

IF YOU TRULY WANT TO HELP HIM..... then help him become the kind of man a woman like yourself COULD fall for. One way of doing this IS by not only telling him of his lack of sex appeal to you, but by telling him specifically why. Tell him it is to late for you to ever see him in that light, but that you might be able to help him with other women. trust me, if he is able to have another woman he is attracted to fall in love with him, he will be quite able to mend any broken hearts fragments from his feeling for you. In fact, helping him become a sexually attractive guy (not a good person, he already is that, i'm talking about sexy behavior and attitude) is your best insurance that he will stay in your life once he does find another. If yo just let him mope about till domineering or desperate woman nabs him, she will likely work to severe his ties to you.

The truly ironic thing is, if he ever does figure out how to make himself more sexually attractive AND secures a healthy relationship with another woman of similar social status to yourself, It is ONLY THEN THAT YOU COULD FFEEL ENOUGH towards him to be more than just friends.

We're messed up lil creatures aren't we?

February 28, 2005

You know, if I didn't know any better, I could almost think you are angry for him. And I understand that. I get angry FOR him myself sometimes.

In all fairnes to myself, though, over the course of the years, I have coached him through probably dozens of relationships. I've introduced him to lots of women, we've talked about what went on in those relationships, what could be done to save them, what was wrong, what was right...

More later...

February 28, 2005

But what am I supposed to do? Tell him to buff up? Take a course in fiscal responsibility? Change who he is??? No. He has a right to be loved just as he is. I want him to be loved just as he is. I accept him and love him as he is – I’m just not romantically inclined. I think of him as my brother.

Please understand that this has been going on since we were in junior high. We met when we were 13 and he was easily the coolest kid in school. We essentially grew up together. For a lot of years, there were plenty of women around him. It’s not like he has been a wallflower. There have been lots of serious relationships, years-long, and that has never interfered with our friendship. If anything, it’s enhanced it because I have made new friends. Most recently, I introduced him to one of my good friends. She was CRAZY about him, but a little too much so. Maybe. Good women love him to pieces because he is such a good guy. A really great guy, in fact. I am not any more attracted to him when he is involved with someone than when he isn’t.

Withdrawing from me? He does, from time to time. That’s fine. We can go months without talking or without email, or whatever. We just pick up where we left off eventually. I don’t freak out or panic if I don’t hear from him. And I know he is fine with not hearing from me, either.

I have no need whatsoever for his validation that I am a desirable woman. Let’s just leave that subject at that, lest I sound like some kind of egomaniac. But on that subject, let me say that, yes, I have gotten mixed up with people I have major incompatibilities with, but they have known from the outset that I’m not interested in a LTR with them. I think maybe I don’t like the inference that I sleep around a lot, because I don’t, but I do date attractive men, and most of the time I know going in that it isn’t going to be a serious relationship. And as far as posting to a public forum that I “DO have someone’s undying affection”... Well, let’s just say that perhaps you are attaching far more importance to that than I ever would. It’s no ego trip for me that this guy has been my best friend for 35 years and wishes it were more. If I want to ego trip, I can find other ways to do that.

No, I really don’t think I need to tell him that I am not physically attracted. As a matter of fact, I’m sure I have told him that sometime(s) in the past. It would not jeopardize our friendship, but perhaps he doesn’t need to be reminded that the years have not been kind to him, nor has he been kind to himself.

“WHAT YOU ARE REALLY TELLING US when you say you're much more active/athletic than he is that you need a stronger, more manly person to make you aroused, and the fact the he is hanging out at your place secretly or not-so -secretly hoping for sex with you all the while passively playing the best-friend role is actually a big turn-off, despite how nice it is platonic. (You see how that has nothing to do with lifestyle and everything to do with what turns you on & off? )” This is an interesting analysis that never occurred to me. You could even be right about it, for all I know. I do know that after being married to a less masculine guy (and all that that entailed – but he ended the marriage for his reasons – I didn’t end it because of this), I am definitely more into the masculine men these days, but that wasn’t the case when we were first friends.

If he were asking ME for advice about this, I would probably tell him the same thing. Get away from her for a while and date people, get out, be sociable, DO stuff, and you will meet someone who will appreciate you for who you are. I agree with you there. I might even tell him to cut off all ties with this woman, consider her an egomaniac whose ego he has been stroking for three and a half decades, and to get on with a real life. Realistically, I don’t think what I have said to him over the years was much of anything less than that. Part of his problem is that he has idealized me to the point he can’t find a real woman who measures up to the fantasy he has assigned to me. I have told him a million times that nobody can measure up to the hopeless fantasy he has constructed about me, least of all me. And maybe that’s part of the problem, too. I can not live up to what he thinks of me – it’s impossible. And nobody else can measure up, either. And the sad thing is, if I did get involved with him, he’d have to come to terms with the fact that I don’t measure up. He’d have to face reality. Is there some way I can convince him of this? So far, it has been impossible. And who’s to say that he doesn’t rationalize his failure to find a lasting relationship on the fact that I won’t have him, and nobody else measures up to this unrequited love? I mean, talk about messed up.

March 3, 2005

I gave you the best feedback I had. so not sure what else to say but I'll try...

What I'm not so sure of is why you're posting at all. What are asking? Or are you not asking anything, just posting to present this as an example of a certain type of relationship and seeing if anyone relates.

If you're looking for ways to help him I say this:

I think his relationship to you is likely indicative of broader behavior attitude issues on his part. That meaning, address the guy's issues and the relationship stuff will clear itself up.

But Does he need fixing?

You say - he already IS such a great guy! I want someone to love him for who he is. - Well I wish it weren't so, but that is a bit unrealistic and condescending. He's not good enough for you but he should be for another? Are you above other women in your right to a desirable man? Whether or not you are, conveying this to him only presents yourself to him as that much more worthy. If instead you said, "You know I'm just a normal everyday woman like many others out there and I don't find you attractive, THAT would go along way toward getting him to question his actions and beliefs.

You might not feel he needs changing. That depends on what goals for his life are. If his purpose is to be an amazing best friend to women and generally helpful, cool guy who doesn't cause trouble for the world. He is probably right on track. If his purpose/goal is to attract and capture the hearts of attractive and healthy women for sexual intimacy and eventually LTR, then I would speculate he IS WAY OFF TRACK.

Now many woman seen to believe that a MAN EITHER IS OR HE ISN'T. A stud is a stud and a dud is a dud. They don't change. This may seem to be true based on personal experience, but it is much more fragile changeable than we think. There are many would be studs out there who have been reduced to wimps never to rise again (sexual pun valid, but not intended) Conversely, there are many so-called studs out there operating fairly successfully solely on the belief in themselves as studs rather then on any true physical, intellectual or spiritual strengths. I propose that this guy could actually become more of a man then A) you would imagine and B) then he would even claim to want.

I PROPOSE tell him you care for him LIKE A BROTHER ONLY and want to see this part of his life resolved both for his benefit and if nothing else so that he'll stop pestering you those annoying, passive-aggressive, self-deprecating, romantic overtures.

THEN ... you point him to this thread , tell him to watch FIGHT CLUB, and change his life until he is no longer threatened by Tyler Durden.

IF ON THE OTHER HAND, you just wanted to vent... yeah these types of relationships are all over the place. It's been said that in America, 10-15% of the men have sex with 90% of the women, so the other 85% generally have developed some pretty weird approaches to having women in their lives. One other suggestion I say half mockingly, You could marry him as the ideal cuckold. Mean but true, I say that o provoke him into action upon reading this.

to you - Best of luck finding a stud with compatible brain or being content with flings

to him - let go of you old ideas and step up to the plate. That domineering mother or the time you got beat up in 7th grade or when you were sexually embarrassed in college or whatever it was that caused you balls to draw up into you belly: that doesn't have to be permanent.

March 3, 2005

I gave you some good feedback. so not sure what else to here goes...

I'm not so sure of why you're posting at all. What are asking? Or are you not asking anything, just posting to present this as an example of a certain type of relationship and seeing if anyone relates?

If you're looking for ways to help him I say this:

I think his relationship to you is likely indicative of broader behavior attitude issues on his part. That meaning, help the guy to address his issues (hard for a woman to do directly) and the relationship stuff will clear itself up.