I think I really messed up. Please help.

[Tonia2]

Arrived, and as soon as he got there, I knew I wasn’t really coping. I felt defensive and uncomfortable, while he was quite stand-offish at first. He said that he didn’t feel differently yet, and that he didn’t want me to have false hopes. I told him that I would really struggle to have any kind of friendship with him, but while the door was left open I would like to keep seeing me.

 

He said he was very anxious not to have me in the same position as I have been for the last six months, and that he would rather not see me than let me cling to false hope. But he won’t decisively say that he won’t feel differently. He said that the last 3 weeks have been totally surreal, with him showering at work and begging sofas off friends, so he hasn’t had time to reflect.

 

We went to the gig, and there were times when I had to hide my face with my hair as I was just weeping. He ended up coming home, and with a cup of coffee on the sofa he pulled me towards him and held me while I cried. He said he really loves me and cares about me, and that he as really missed me. He also asked if he could sleep next to me, and I stupidly let him. One thing lead to another and it was tender and very nice. He held me all night and was extremely loving towards me, without giving me any false hope. He said that he had really missed me and that he hopes he will feel differently when he moves back to his flat (tomorrow) but at the same time, he was talking about telling his folks about the break-up, etc.

 

We had breakfast together this morning and walked to the tube – he is still really tactile – kissing my forehead, putting his arm around me. We went our separate ways, and he said he would email me about seeing each other again, but he said he was confused, because last night I had told him I probably couldn’t see him as a mate. I want to tell him that I want to keep seeing him until he can tell me decisively that there is no hope – I would be able to do that to him, why can’t he tell me? Is that a fair arrangement? Am I fooling myself and letting myself in for a whole lot more hurt? The one thing I do know is that although we had some very poignant, loving times in the night, my performance will not have left him much to go away with. He will not be thinking that I am an independent, funky chick.

 

I don’t think I can let him go at the moment, so any suggestions on what I can do to minimise the damage? He even said to me on the way to the tube this morning, that he always wants what he can’t have. That aint me at the moment sadly – I was about the biggest sure thing that you could imagine! I did say that the one thing I couldn’t bear was ambivalence, and I felt like he was ready to let our friendship go quite easily (see beginning of post) and he said that was nonsense, he just doesn’t want to hurt me anymore. He left with assurances that he will really think about what he might lose – but is it too late? I feel like a failure.

[kypepeo]

I know its a tough time for you but life is not easy and we all go throught this momnets when we just want the pain to end. Sorry to break it to you but he's probably not ever going to feel for you what he should, despite last night, and you know that. Try your best to avoid hanging out with him and accept that that part of your life is over. You'll get through it eventually. It's part of what life is. Hang in there girl

[ReluctantRomeo]

Tonia, you sound really sweet.

 

I was in your situation just over a month ago. Wanting to do the "right thing" by projecting an independent, confident image. But knowing deep down that I really needed her. The act just didn't last and I ended up being myself - wanting and needing her.

 

At the end of the day, he has to want *you* not an image. You can rehearse all the different things you said and did, but the bottom line is that you have been together. He has seen what you have got. And - probably stupidly - he is now thinking he doesn't want it.

 

Here's the advice I should have had and wish I had done. Go NC. If, as seems likely, this split is permanent, then you get on with the rest of your life. If he still has doubts, NC is the only way for him to remember the strong, independent and funky chick which you are in the other areas of your life. You'll never keep the act up in person. I know I didn't.

[Tonia2]

Thank you. I did 2 weeks NC and it hurt like hell. I am just worried, that out of sight, out of mind, you know?

 

How do we get it so wrong? How can I be so assured of the 'rightness' of the relationship and he just doesn't feel the same? I feel such an idiot...

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by Tonia2

Thank you. I did 2 weeks NC and it hurt like hell. I am just worried, that out of sight, out of mind, you know?

 

How do we get it so wrong? How can I be so assured of the 'rightness' of the relationship and he just doesn't feel the same? I feel such an idiot...

 

 

Well, it could be "out of sight, out of mind", but often that isn't the way these things work. Particularly if he wants what he can't have.

 

I don't know how I could have been so wrong either. Do you know the song in my signature? Seems appropriate to me today, too.

[Tonia2]

Is it Dire Straits? Yeah, it makes sense i guess.

 

I feel totally cut adrift. I have heard nothing from him today and he told me he would email and let me know his thoughts. There is nothing as painful as feeling totally powerless - like all the NC and games and manipulation (not saying that NC is either) won't work anymore.

 

I think it is all slowly sinking in, and it 'aint a nice feeling.

[ReluctantRomeo]

I know about feeling adrift, powerless and sinking. The Titanic just about describes my life a month ago. But it does get better with time... hang on in there

[Tonia2]

feel much more positive now, and you are absolutley right. If you really want to be kept posted, these are the emails from today... think I am being a bit weak, but keen to be honest with him, after quite a lot of games, let me know what you think? They start at the bottom and go up. The consistency thing is weird, I know, but I do feel that it has to be an investment in us, or nothing... am I getting this across? How things have changed...

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Ok. I can do Thursday. That would be nice. I’m sorry if it sounds ‘planny’. Could you try to be as flexible and thoughtful as you can at the moment, as I am struggling with all of this? I am trying.

 

 

 

What about the rest of what I said?

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----

 

 

 

 

No g was fine today - it was nice to meet up with him.

 

"sustained contact or none at all" sounds quite 'planny' to me. I'm getting a bit confused here - why dont we use up these cinema complimentaries I still have to see a film together next wed or thu after work and take it from there?

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Oh of course – the g… was he a bit more communicative, rather than the monologue?

 

 

 

I have just missed having you around, you know. As my mate above all. That is what makes this all so hard – there were moments last night when I just loved being in your funny, entertaining company – regardless of all the other stuff.

 

 

 

Not making a plan sounds ok – you are probably right – all this torturous analysis is doing both of our heads in and takes away the fun and spontaneity in our relationship – whatever that might be. The trouble for me is that I need some kind of consistency, you know – I can’t make the jump from what we had to casual mates very easily. Like I said to you, the one thing that hurts more than anything is when you seem willing to sacrifice our relationship/friendship rather than take the responsibility of maybe hurting me, but giving any potential we may have a shot. (when I say that, I am not deluding myself that we are in a relationship at the moment – I just abide by the wait and see what happens when you are out of that surreal situation you have been in for the past 3 weeks). Do you understand that?

 

 

 

By consistency I mean that I need to have sustained contact with you or none at all probably – can you do that? I would also like to see you reasonably soon in a neutral, fun setting where I can be myself more, without the angst that built up in the intervening weeks when we weren’t seeing or speaking to each other. That will make it more natural I think, and I would like to have fun with you again. Last night was laden with pathos, what with Damien Rice whinging in the background and seven vodkas down the throwat. I enjoyed it though and I felt close to you. I had missed that.

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----

 

 

 

 

Hi sweetheart,

 

Sorry I did mean to email you earlier but other things happened and I forgot so no need to feel cut adrift. Last night was good - thank you for finally agreeing to come along. Band were very unusual and very good and also I was pretty bladd*red which always helps as well. I didn't think you were high maintenance at all - in fact I was very pleased with the way you handled things which are no doubt difficult at the moment. I liked holding you - felt nice. I have just come back from lunch with G which was good. Fish and chips to feed my lingering hangover - nice. What to do from here? - not sure really - don't feel I particularly want to make a plan do you? Are you comfortable with that?

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Hi D

 

 

 

I am not sure whether I am waiting for an email from you? I tried to call you earlier. It would be nice to know your thoughts, as I am not quite sure how we left things, and after a pretty nice night last night, I feel a little cut adrift, you know?

 

 

 

Thanks for coming along and I hope I wasn’t too high maintenance. I am glad you stayed.

 

 

 

The band were pretty wicked too, I thought. Hope your day is going well and might try to give you a call later if you don’t get this.

 

 

 

Thanks

[Tonia2]

And I am still messing up… I would hate you all to think that I haven’t taken your brilliant advice on board, but sadly we are human and keep using that big stick to beat ourselves with, don’t we? I spent the weekend looking after my granny who has had a double knee replacement, while he moved back to his old (lovely) flat that he moved out of to let out while he moved in with me. I ended up hounding him a few times over the weekend with messages and calls, as I knew that he was moving his final stuff out of my flat, and it hurt.

 

I got the impression that it was irritating him, and man what bad timing. You know, he was excited about his flat and very busy, and I was just being whiny and pathetic on the phone. I just felt so redundant now that he was back on his feet – like I was there for him when he was made redundant, and there for him when he needed somewhere to live. But that he hadn’t truly been happy with any of what I offered him. Anyway, it got into a reasonably unpleasant discussion, with him saying he cared about me and loved me but didn’t want to discuss things again and again.

 

He called back and apologised – then called later to play me something that used to be an ‘in joke’ of ours, to try to cheer me up. I know he is doing his best, and I think that my panic is part of my ‘letting go’ process. Its hard, you know, thinking he is moving on and I am stuck. It is essentially the first time I have lived alone, as my bro is away for 4 weeks and I am very lonely – plus my head tells me to do stupid things when I have been dwelling on something for hours – I’m sure we all know that one. He said that he is finding it hard, but not as hard as me…

 

Anyway, about his proposal to go to the cinema. My new friend at work has suggested that she come with us. Do you think this is a good idea? I know that the only way to redeem myself now is to be cool and light-hearted and fun to be with. And I know that this is going to be really hard and hurt like f*ck, but I need to do it for myself and for any future that I may be able to salvage with him. He is going to be getting very lonely in his little ivory tower once the novelty wears off, and I want to stick around until that happens – it is my last chance. I brought everything to our life – friends, family, entertainment – plus we were best friends. He has got to feel that quite soon… especially as I know that my next few weeks are taken up with friends and stuff.

 

If I have my friend there, not only does it appear to change my agenda (that I am not treating it like a ‘date’, misguidedly) he might also be disappointed? And she can stop me doing something dumb.

 

Conversely, I am worried that this will destroy our intimacy and stop us having any conversations we might need to – although this might not be the time, and after I have been pretty heavy every time I have spoken to him, perhaps it is time to lighten up with him? He also offered for me to use his off-road parking over this week (as my residents permit has run out), so he is not ready to let go completely. I know that people’s advice is probably not to see him at all – but I just don’t think I am strong enough for that yet. Any advice? I know that sleeping with your ex is such a big cliché, but do you think it may have meant anything to him? He said he liked holding me in his email the next day.

 

I am aware I sound desperate, and a bit pathetic, but I think we have all been there? I can never thank you all enough for your help – you know who you are! I hope I never have to repay the favour, but I would happily in spades if I had half your wisdom…

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by Tonia2

I am aware I sound desperate, and a bit pathetic, but I think we have all been there? I can never thank you all enough for your help – you know who you are! I hope I never have to repay the favour, but I would happily in spades if I had half your wisdom…

 

 

Yes, you're desperate. And yes, you're pathetic. But I've been there too...

 

NC for a month or two would soooo help you maintain your dignity. You are losing it badly right now. And irritating him.

 

If you must meet up, yes, take a girlfriend. Instruct her to intervene to stop you if you start to look too pathetic.

 

Sleeping with an ex is easy to do, especially for guys. Obviously he still has feelings for you, but it doesn't mean he still sees himself with you.

 

Sorry, it sucks, but I think you need to hear this. I wish I had heard this kind of advice when I broke up with ReluctantJuliette.

[Tonia2]

Break it to me gently, romeo!

 

Strangely enough, he has called me incessantly today - I ignored them all until he called my work phone (I had to answer, as it is an open plan office). He has said he doesn't want my mate coming along, as it would be 'weird', and has tried to get me to go to 2 director's q & as this week - I have told him I am busy.

 

Still probably going along on Thursday, but the whole thing is f*cking wiht me. You are probably right that I should cut contact, and there is certainly not much more of this that I can take. Certainly don't feel desperate any more. Irritated that he is hounding me, and like I deserve more. It is funny, the rollercoaster, isn't it? By tomorrow I will probably feel really needy again.

[udelgirl]

since he is contacting you, don't continue the circle and prolong it by ignoring him right now. break it, and contact him back. or else when he stops, you'll still feel needy except this time he won't be calling you back. take advantage of the opportunity.. and good luck!

[jasondotcom]

Tonia, this is the commitment phobe, right? And I presume he knows that's what he is because you gave him the literature on it? I'm guessing it's so hard for you because you think he still loves you underneath it all, and maybe he does. Interesting he said "I always want what I can't have". Classic sign that it's the thrill and challenge of the chase that gets him, but the reality of being with someone turns him all ambivalent. My commitment phobe had a slightly different angle on this "I'm scared of what I want". Maybe that's closer to the truth in his case too?

 

You said in the other thread that "I cannot trust him until he has acknowledged his problem and accepted that he might need to do some work on himself". Is he anywhere near this position? It sounds like he's not. Do you have any insights into the issues behind his commitment phobia and whether he's addressing those at all?

 

I know how hard the struggle is when you want to keep him close in case he "changes his mind" as the CP's are prone to do. Good luck. I feel for you.

 

Jason

[Tonia2]

THanks Jason. I got another missed call and a text telling me to stop playing hard to get and to call him. I did, and as soon as I did, he cooled off. He is pissing me off so much. Going to the cinema with him tonight instead - as thursday was turning out to be a bit of a logistical nightmare. I will be bright breezy and non-committal myself. He knows he has issues, but is not doing anything to address them. I can't expect him to until (if) he comes back asking for another chance. I just don't know if I can be arsed with all of this.

[Tonia2]

Oh, by the way, if you read other threads, you will see that he was married. THis confuses the committment phobe issue a bit, but their relationship was very volatile. She was always telling him that she was leaving him/ sleeping with other men to panic him. He actually said that it was incredibly seductive when she would push him out in the cold, and suddenly relent and offer him a crumb of comfort... So I don't actually think that the marriage negates his committment phobia.

 

He ended the marriage eventually. I do think that this has a bearing on our situation, as he is terrifed of making another mistake.

[NatoPMT]

Hi Tonia

 

skim read through your posts and got a couple of responses. When you showed your ex the CP articles, it bought an issue to the fore that is difficult to deal with, from what i have read, CP is pretty much impossible to get over. I dont believe all CP's are CP for life, theres different degrees of it and he may be going through a CP stage after his divorce. However, theres absolutely NOTHING you can do to bring him out of the other side. Even if its a stage, the tempo of your s and his relationship is set in his conscious now as a CP relationship, and if hes to move on, i have noticed that CP people tend to stay CP with those they always were with - so he may not be with someone else in the future, but for you he may always be. Its a dynamic i have noticed a few times with friends and ive never seen it broken, unless its the being-sensible-keeping-you-at-arms-length-at-first kind of concerns, but thats a sensible CP stage that all emotionally healthy people should have, not the i heart you in 3 mins of meeting you behaviour thats classic CP. And the marriage dynamic he had sounds like hes a classic rather than going through a stage.

 

I wonder if you are a bit CP yourself? Why would you dedicate so much time to someone who cant give you his all? Plus the warning signs of being devoted enough to someone like his ex wife scream thats hes emotionally unhealthy. hes done this before to you, and he is doing it now, and will likely do it again in the future. You live in London, there will be hundreds of men in a 10 mile radius right now who will be as gorgeous and amazing company but will have all the extras he cant give you. and if hes anything like my slightly CP ex, the moment you realise that, the moment the weight of being attached to this exhausting situation lifts, he will be back with his charm offensive on full throttle.

[Tonia2]

You probably read my latest on Jason's thread - if not, it is below. Very interesting what you say - and rather depressing too. I hear what you are saying, but I find it so hard to give up on something that was once so good - like what jason said, about CP exs finding it particularly hard to believe that something that was so good can sour so much.

 

I want to believe in him, and I want him to change, but I acknowledge that I could be pissing against the wind. What is your experience with your ex? I will check your previous posts in a minute - in the meantime, here is the latest:

 

 

Post: 12 | Quote:

 

Love that stuff about self - deciet - check this out, and tell me if you think that is what I am being a victim of? I am back from our evening at the cinema, and it was great. I feel mission accomplished - at least in the short term, in that I maintained composure and dignity and didn't cry once! Every time he alluded to the relationship, I asked him not to discuss it. Ironically we were seeing a film called 5 x 2 - about a relationship breakdown!

 

He was very tactile and affectionate - kept stroking my face/ hair - but I didn't buy into it too much - didn't even really reciprocate. We got the tube together - he was massaging my neck on the escalator, but I got off at my stop without a second thought - it is only 10pm UK time and I am home alone and ready for bed.

 

I think that all things considered I did OK. I will not contact him now - it is up to him, and I will concentrate on looking after myself. I can't lie - I am encouraged by his gestures - he was much more tactile and into me - I can tell. But I truly believe that if nothing comes of this, I will be OK.

 

As for the film festival that you mentioned - I can only say from my experience, that having another focus made things so much easier - something to talk about to take the focus off us and our relationship. I seem to be a bit better off in terms of his desire to keep some kind of relationship going - but I am sure that your guy will hook into you again soon - which will give you the option to leave him be or try to nurture some kind of relationship. I just don't know if we are letting ourselves in for loads more pain... I have moments of clarity where I really do wonder whether it is worth it! I am sure if we could take ourselves out of these situations we would realise we have lots to offer to someone worthwhile, but I for one find that the more he rejects me the more attractive I find him. Shows that I have serious addictive processes going on too.

[NatoPMT]

Can you tell me more about why you actually split up? I know you felt he was commitment phobic, but what are his reasons for not committing to you? What triggered the split 6 months ago, and did he just come back after a few weeks or did something happen to cause him to come back? Sorry if I am making you repeat yourself here.

 

I don’t think you can win him back in your current state of mind..

 

I feel a little cut adrift, you know?

 

By saying this, you are putting the responsibility of how you feel with him – your feelings are a reaction to his behaviour. This isnt strong independent stuff. Its like saying you don’t have the ability to know how to feel until you can feel as a result of something hes done. Your feelings are your own. And its not his responsibility to make you happy, whether he’s with you or not.

 

He’s saying a few things that show he’s really not engaged mentally with working things out – they show hes moving on and that he’s not giving this the same effort and time that you are….

 

Sorry I did mean to email you earlier but other things happened and I forgot

 

he hopes he will feel differently when he moves back to his flat (tomorrow) but at the same time, he was talking about telling his folks about the break-up, etc.

 

He’s making steps to move on here, you are the person preventing him moving on. He feels guilt and empathy for you, but its not stopping him forgetting to mail you when other things come up. I don’t think he’s very confused, I think he feels guilty, but he knows at this stage what he wants. And that’s what he cant have, remember. I am basing ALL this on how my ex acted, and it was exceptionally similar – he said similar things – like the false hopes, hoping he’ll feel differently etc. And one thing that makes me FURIOUS about your ex is that he will still sleep with you. I think its SO selfish and cruel. He knows how you feel about him, he knows you are devastated, yet he will sleep with you and then forget to mail you because ‘other things came up’. He is prepared to give you that false hope he says he cant give you just by sleeping with you.

 

My ex was 18 months ago, and I am more thankful now than I have ever been that he’s not in my life – I can hardly even conceive that state of mind now. The thought of going through what you are going through again for someone as selfish as ex is laughable with hindsight. My feeling is that you will prolong the worst of the worst if you try to get him back now. You are going through the most bleak right now which means it has to get better – you have been through 6 months of uncertainty (which I had also) to the realisation of the worst of your fears, which is happening now. You may have been manipulated by the last 6 months to a person almost unrecognisable to the person you were. The 6 months of this becoming a possibility, make the reality much, much harder to deal with, you have 6 months of trying to prevent the inevitable. This is a temporary state, its not forever, but if you get back with him now, he’s already created the fear in you and followed it through. If you did want to be with him again, it should be him trying to win you back. Otherwise the dynamic of your current situation is likely to remain unless both of you want it to change with all your hearts, and he doesn’t have the motivation in wanting ‘you and only you’ to change it.

 

The only way you can change this situation is to change your feelings/actions towards him (same for you too jason). And do you have some control over your feelings, it may take a few relapses, but you do ultimately have control over this situation, you are currently giving that control to him. If he was to come back, its unlikely to be while you feel this way. There’s a school of thought that says while you resist a break up, they have more reason to back away from you. When you agree that you should split up and they are right to make the break, you take resistance away – taking away the reason for conflict and guilt which makes you an easier person to be around. The other, if fatalistic, reason for doing this is that you can then trust whatever happens will be the right thing – whether that means you have to be open to whatever direction this takes you and believe that it’s the right direction for you to go in.

 

I was reading through and answering from the start of the thread - Just read your last post, it sounds like you pulled a blinder at the pictures. You pulled a bit of that control back. I have to say though, that relationships based on the pull-push control thing make me very wary. When you have to pull away to get anything back, its not a genuine feeling, it’s a reaction to an action and doesn’t cut the mustard. Just bear that in mind, and I have my fingers crossed that once the shock of him doing this wears off, you will be left with a feeling that you have to liberate yourself from him exhausting you with all this pushing and pulling.

 

I have talked for ages, I will shut myself up now.

[Tonia2]

No, no, no... it is all really good stuff, and I thank you for it. I also thank you for endorsing my feeble success last night. I do feel so much stronger as a result. I may be kidding myself that I am able to let this go - god did I still love him when he came in. I was on the phone and he snuck up on me and kissed my neck and cuddled me. Lots of his behaviour last night was so confusing, and I am trying not to obsess about it - he tickled me, like he always used to, was really tactile - ironically it felt like a first date, and I know that I have real sexual power over him, which is seductive. He was also offering to keep sorting out my finances for me (he used to do my budgets) and said that for our next 'date' he wanted to take me to this intimate little Italian by his house.

 

I know that I am going against what I said - not obsessing about how he is feeling, but I cannot emphasise enough that this is taking up QUARTER of the headspace that it did a while ago. He left asking me to email him, and I was non-committal and haven't. Neither has he, but I will just have to leave it at that for the time being.

 

He broke up with me because he wasn't sure if he saw me 100% in his future (he is thinking mother of his kids) and the trigger was a pregnancy scare at xmas that he reacted very badly to. 6 months ago, he came back after 2 weeks saying he made a mistake and wanted me in his life. If he came back again it would have to be with a serious committment. I hope that makes it all clearer - check my first threads, and you will see the exact progression of this. You sound like you have done loads of work on all of this, and I appreciate your wisdom a lot. What is your situation at the moment? I cannot emphasise enough that despite his fatal CP flaw - he is a lovely, kind, loving, affectionate man with great values, and he is fit and great fun... a perfect package with a terrible streak! I get what you are saying about him moving on, but his behaviour just doesn't seem to bear this out - he is initating everything, and seems to find it harder to shift the boundaries.

 

i also know that this is not how it was when he seperated from his wife. That was decisive and there was no to-ing or fro-ing. He didn't particularly want to see her for many months and certainly didn't want to be tactile/ go out to the cinema. So as you can see, I am very confused. Well - not really. It all seems quite straight forward CP behaviour. As I said before - when I withdraw, he panics, when he withdraws, I panic and he rests on his laurels. I do want him back, and I think I can only keep doing what I am doing and wait. In the meantime, life goes on and I am having fun and feeling pretty good about myself for getting on with things.

[Tonia2]

On a slightly more abstract point, to anyone who is reading this, I am slightly worried about his sexual attraction to me. Do you think this is completely clouding his judgement? Is it usual for men to not be able to let go because they find someone desireable, and with the memory of an amazing sex life?

 

I know this sounds really arrogant - and I am not saying that I am amazingly hot or anything, but our chemistry is pretty scorching... would appreciate thoughts.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by Tonia2

On a slightly more abstract point, to anyone who is reading this, I am slightly worried about his sexual attraction to me. Do you think this is completely clouding his judgement? Is it usual for men to not be able to let go because they find someone desireable, and with the memory of an amazing sex life?

 

I know this sounds really arrogant - and I am not saying that I am amazingly hot or anything, but our chemistry is pretty scorching... would appreciate thoughts.

 

 

Not abstract at all

 

Yes, it's quite normal for sex to cloud a man's judgement, making it difficult to let go. It doesn't even have to be particularly good sex, although that helps

[Tonia2]

Yeah, but its like, what is the fing problem then? You know - the chemistry is mindblowing, he loves me, cares about me and thinks i am a great person.

 

frustrating. very frustrating... do his tender gestures not really mean anything then (massaging neck etc)?

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by Tonia2

Yeah, but its like, what is the fing problem then? You know - the chemistry is mindblowing, he loves me, cares about me and thinks i am a great person.

 

frustrating. very frustrating... do his tender gestures not really mean anything then (massaging neck etc)?

 

 

Oh Tonia, I know, I know. Same story with ReluctantJuliette. Mindblowing chemistry (ironically, particularly for her) and the three things she looks for in a guy are really strong points with me. She is rampantly in love with me, then.... wtf?

 

Tender gestures just mean he feels tender. Commitment is something else, I'm sorry to say.

[jasondotcom]

You are making excellent progress Tonia, even I can see that and I've only been hanging out here a few days...so far.

 

"Perfect package with a terrible streak"...God I can relate to that. But I bet you're a pretty amazing package yourself, and flawless too! Well, compared to him anyway :-)

 

BigBelm, I know you're right in advising Tonia and me that we need to change our feelings and actions towards these men...if it were that easy I'm sure we would have already, but of course we are trying aren't we Tonia?! I am really trying to shift things by taking a genuine approach to being his friend and trusting that the future will take care of itself. And really I wouldn't take my guy back with things as they stand now...I haven't even told him I'm on to his CP ways yet, let alone seen any sign of change.

 

Tonia, of course sexual attraction clouds men's judgement, but I'm sure you know that really. Gay men are probably worse if anything, but all men are the same I suspect (except me, my motives are always honourable). After my first breakup 6 or so months ago he told me he had a problem seeing me because "your physicality gets to me", which I suppose was his way of saying "if I see you, I'm going to want to shag you". It probably kept him hanging on longer than he otherwise would have. Flattering I suppose, and I remembered it and tried to milk it later on. He was always more attracted to me than I was to him, so in some ways I had an unfair advantage there. Not that many successful relationships can be based purely on sexual attraction, so this stuff has it limitations in the longer term!

 

It's frustrating isn't it. In my case he said it was the best sex he ever had, I matched his fantasy ideal, he loved me completely, I was such a "good man", I was unlike any gay man he'd ever met (that was my favourite compliment), he felt protective of me, didn't want to be with anyone else, had dreams of the future with me in them, blah blah blah. Then he frigging dumps me. Twice. What he forgot to say was "but I'm a bit *ucked up and have all these irrational engulfment and abandonment fears and will end up blaming you and the shortcomings I invent for you".

 

That's why he got so scared - because I was exactly what he'd always wanted. Which is why I find it hard to not feel sorry for him. What a fool, to destroy the very thing he's always wanted because he couldn't face his fear. But that's the thing with these guys.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by jasondotcom

You are making excellent progress Tonia, even I can see that and I've only been hanging out here a few days...so far.

 

Yes, Tonia. Even in the short time you've been on this thread, we've all seen the progress.

 

 

It's frustrating isn't it. In my case he said it was the best sex he ever had, I matched his fantasy ideal, he loved me completely, I was such a "good man", I was unlike any gay man he'd ever met (that was my favourite compliment), he felt protective of me, didn't want to be with anyone else, had dreams of the future with me in them, blah blah blah. Then he frigging dumps me. Twice. What he forgot to say was "but I'm a bit *ucked up and have all these irrational engulfment and abandonment fears and will end up blaming you and the shortcomings I invent for you".

 

Incredibly frustrating, yes. What can we do except be philosophical and enjoy the sad irony...