I think I really messed up. Please help.

[Tonia2]

Cheers guys - it was a bit of a dumb question - sexual chemistry clouds my judgement too. If I had initiated a break up wtih all the ensuing pain though, I would not be letting it get out of hand, and I would not be tactile towards that person. Am I alone in this?

 

Any ideas what my next move should be? I have a feeling you are all going to say nothing, nad I can deal with that. Jason, I am so feeling you man... it is really, really hard to detach, and if you are genuine in saying that you can take the friendship on face value, then you are a stronger man than me! How would you react if he got another boyfriend? Do you think he is seeing other people? This would be my pain threshold I think. By the way, what the hell time is it over there?

[NatoPMT]

I don’t know where to post, jasons or tonias. it’s a posting melee.

 

BigBelm, I know you're right in advising Tonia and me that we need to change our feelings and actions towards these men...if it were that easy I'm sure we would have already, but of course we are trying aren't we Tonia?!

It IS easy jason. Its easier than you could ever realise. Your actions come first, then your feelings follow – its like cognative behaviour therapy, you act like you want to act, even if you don’t feel it, and eventually your feelings fall in line too – I can pm you some techniques I used if you want. I don’t mean you any disrespect when I say that you seem to have allowed yourself to become a victim of his behaviour. You know fine well what hes like, you know it’s the most devastating of break up types, you know what his problems are, (assuming CP is a correct diagnosis of course which sounds pretty likely). By saying you are unconditionally in love with him kind of says that you will allow him to do anything to you and you will still love him. You always have control over who you love, just like he has control over being CP – its his decision, and its yours to love him for it.

 

I would say that you should take yourself out of wanting to be with him for the time being and look to yourself - to wonder why you want him so badly, someone who critises and treats you how he sees fit to at his whim. Its healthy to fall in love with the right person, to fall in love with the wrong person and believe you cant stop yourself can be so destructive to your esteem and your future. I have done this myself, and I was more than devastated to find myself in your position, and more than elated when a few months down the line I realised I had created my own prison, my own despair. Nobody ever does anything to your emotions that you don’t let them do. I know people that are still in that despair several years along the line because they cant see its them keeping themselves there. Of course it takes time to heal and grieve, but you change your actions in an instant.

 

i cant keep up. i am trying to look like i am working and my guilty face gives the game away.

[jasondotcom]

Umm well about being genuine about taking the friendship on face value: no, of course I'm lying to myself about that! But hey, maybe I'm gullible enough to get away with it... I want to be genuine about it though, so that's a start.

 

No I doubt he's seeing anyone else just yet. He says it'll be 5 years before he's ready to give a relationship another go, but that's easy for him to say now. 5 years may as well be forever. I dunno how I'll feel if/when he does get another boyfriend. Upset, angry, crushed...but that's now. Oh, I'd also feel a need to take the new man aside and warn him what he's getting in to. For that matter I'd want to take Cxxxxx aside and lecture him on how unfair it is of him to be setting out to do the same thing to someone else...do it to me for godsake, I'm the addict hanging out for my hit. (OK, that last bit was a touch tragic).

 

Part of me hopes I'll be the first with a new boyfriend, or to start dating anyway. But I have some challenges that are going to make that a little harder for me than it'd be for him. The kind of thing that sometimes makes me think he was my last chance for happiness. Although I know that's not true really.

 

Oh it's a little after 1am. Yes bedtime.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by BigBelm

Your actions come first, then your feelings follow – its like cognative behaviour therapy, you act like you want to act, even if you don’t feel it, and eventually your feelings fall in line too – I can pm you some techniques I used if you want.

 

 

Yes, please. I'd love these too.

 

 

i cant keep up. i am trying to look like i am working and my guilty face gives the game away.

 

[Tonia2]

I am intrigued by what your challenges are, but I do not believe that they will jeapordise your chance for a new relationship. People with all kinds of emotional problems/ illnesses/ tragic circumstances in their lives get relationships...

 

You sound pretty sorted, and I admire that. We seem to be at similar places. I am not 100% ready to let him go, but I am becoming more and more resigned to the possiblity that I may have to, and that it is not a reflection on me.

 

He still hasn't tried to contact me today, which is obviously driving me up the f*cking wall... but he did ask me to contact him. Who cares, eh?

[Tonia2]

I would love them too please.

 

I think the thing you are missing here, big belm, is the fact that initially these people often do represent (and I say 'represent' deliberately) the most loving, emotionally available, healthy people we could imagine. That is why it is so completely bewildering when they turn, and it takes a long, long time for us to catch up. And not to believe that it MUST have been something that we did that changed them so completely.

 

Jason, think about it... we are a lot better off in a way, because we have this insight. There are soooo many people out there whose soulmates have abandoned them and made them feel like sh*t and they don't know why. That has to be way more painful than what we have to contend with.

[Tonia2]

I need your tips BB? Just had a text telling me that if I was emailing him he was out of the office... he is going to be getting a bit of a shock when he sees that I haven't been emailing. At least he is trying to be considerate.

 

In summary, I need to stop obsessing about all this sh*t, so bring on the congnitive behavioural therapy.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by Tonia2

I think the thing you are missing here, big belm, is the fact that initially these people often do represent (and I say 'represent' deliberately) the most loving, emotionally available, healthy people we could imagine. That is why it is so completely bewildering when they turn, and it takes a long, long time for us to catch up. And not to believe that it MUST have been something that we did that changed them so completely.

 

 

This is exactly the problem. They are sprinters, not marathon runners, in relationships. They make a special effort for a time and we think this is what they would have been like forever.

 

There's another thread just started which has an interesting insight from the other side. Check it out at:

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t57943

[Tonia2]

Yeah, it is really interesting. She seems a lot more self aware than my ex though. She sounds like she is going to hurt that boy - perhaps you should be a bit more honest with your advice romeo! Is that the kind of bird that gets you interested? SHe sounds pretty fiesty and interesting.

[ReluctantRomeo]

Originally posted by Tonia2

Yeah, it is really interesting. She seems a lot more self aware than my ex though. She sounds like she is going to hurt that boy - perhaps you should be a bit more honest with your advice romeo! Is that the kind of bird that gets you interested? SHe sounds pretty fiesty and interesting.

 

 

Sad but true, yes. I've been with this kind of girl several times now. I'm curious to pick her brains a bit and gain insight into her process.

 

But as well as trying to understand her side, I'd like to help her understand a bit more of the guy's side. Like, she is assuming he will lose interest in her, which I don't think is true - I think the problem is likely to go the other way.

[NatoPMT]

totally not missing that - honest. i know they do that - declaring love in first few weeks if not days, saying you have 'saved' them, god the list is endless. at worst, its a technique that unstable people use to fool their new partner into falling for them before they found out what flaws they have - and at best its a foolish misjudgement because love shouldnt exist without knowing that person is right for you. I have been both subject to that and guilty of it - what i failed to mention was that i was classic CP - worst nightmare of one too, before i got my heart busted by one. I think i still have tendancies myself but more along the scared of getting heart broken lines of it now. but i have overcome those tendancies (i think).

 

Thats the worst part of it - you arent totally mourning for who he is now - you are mourning for the earlier part of the relationship when it was all chemistry and you were the best thing since Green & Blacks. The problem is that it’s the past and its gone. Unless he is the one to do all the work alongside you, it most likely has gone forever. The only way he will come back is if you withdraw and stay partially withdrawn until he’s over his issues, which may be never, and really Tonia, please ask yourself if you want to play the push-pull thing forever. You sound like a very positive person and one not to be kept down for long – I feel like that myself and ah tells thee now feeling the blunt weapon end of CP was the best thing to ever happen to me.

 

Even if they relationship was once great, which all relationships should be surely? It doesn’t negate anything I wrote above. It all still stands, don’t forget that t-bag vests were once great. And matching plastic bangles and beads. And high cut bikinis. Things change, and I remember reading once that most of our anxiety comes from resistance of change. Haven’t got my head round that one properly yet.

 

Gotta do some work before I get busted. will sort the tips in a bit when boss not eyeballing me

[willduggan]

-

[Tonia2]

I really feel for you. Keep reading up on the various posts on this forum - lots of people have had similar experiences, and you will gain all the wisdom that you need. I am still quite new to this game, so not sure how much help I can be.

 

On gut, if I had left a guy and he continued to send me poetry and hand made gifts, I would lose my respect for him quite quickly. You need to show that you are independent and strong, and that will be much more appealling to her. She may never want to get back together with you, but do you want her enduring memories to be of you pathetic and broken, or strong and resolute?

 

Good luck...

[NatoPMT]

Thinking is developed along neural pathways in your brain. The more you use those pathways, the more ingrained your thinking is. If you want to change the way you think, you have to create new neural pathways. When you have a completely original thought that you have never had before, you have a ‘ahhh – so THAT’S it’ moment. That’s literally the new pathway being formed, you can almost feel it. The more you use that new pathway, the old pathways start getting ‘overgrown’ and your new pathway becomes more well trodden and used, until the new pathway becomes your new way of automatic thinking.

 

I did it 2 ways. The first - I would actually decide how I wanted to be, and start thinking like I actually was that way. I would mentally picture the old way of thinking being overgrown and inaccessible, and the new was lit up in lights and associate it with the path to being happier. Or just think the way I wanted to and not let my brain wander down the old pathway. If that’s too much, you can do simpler things like just think about being with someone new in the future, or just allow yourself a grin to yourself when you see a good looking boy on the tube – open yourself up to a new situation and that new situation can become more attractive than the current one. Just introduce the new thoughts and keep on doing it, going travelling, getting a new job, whatever it might be that’s more worth thinking about than HIM.

 

The 2nd was more to do with my own CP. I lamented long and hard about how I couldn’t commit for the most ridiculous reasons – but it boiled down to fear (maybe like jasons bf), or how I couldn’t talk to new bf about something – anything that was outside my comfort zone. I just did it. I ACTED as though I could do it, hid my anxiety and presented a front of being able to do what I was most scared of. Now, I still pause before I do something I don’t like, but then its more natural to just get on with it and I do it not exactly automatically, but im getting there. I can now deal with situations that would have given me palpitations before.

 

Another eg is being irritated by people, on the tube or wherever, I sing a song to myself and pretend I am not angry and I stop getting angry now. Usually Here Comes the Sun by the Beatles.

 

It worked for me. you might think I am a fruitbat but they were desperate times...

[jasondotcom]

Tonia I do know just how better off I am knowing what I know now. I just have to remember what happened in "the gap" (what he and I call the period between breakup 1 and reconciliation...mind the gap). I had a few other major problems/issues crop up at about the same time as the breakup, and trying to cope with it all was sheer hell. After lying on my couch in the foetal position balling my eyes out for 2 weeks (yes, really) I became obsessive about getting my act together and finding a way to cope - I started meditation and looking for God (a freaky experience for an atheist), therapy, gym, wrote my life story and more. And the sad thing was that my prime motivation was getting him back - changing myself to become the man he wanted me to be. In some ways that was OK because what he wanted me to be was what I wanted for myself too, so if the goal is right then whatever motivation it takes to get you there is fine.

 

I did feel abandoned by my soulmate, and at the point in my life where I needed his support the most. The really cruel thing was the way he let me feel it was because I wasn't good enough, so I felt like I knew why...I was a bad person...but that so wasn't the truth of the matter. I'm one of the most courageous people I know (see, I've come a long long way), and he even admitted eventually that most people would have killed themselves by now if they'd been through what I've been through. Funny then that his appallingly abusive behaviour towards me at the most vulnerable moment of my life (a few months before our first breakup) was the thing that nearly pushed me to do just that. I'm not looking for sympathy or saying my life is too much to cope with. Far from it, I'm just fine these days and have a completely transformed attitude.

 

The thing about it is that he was there when my life fell apart completely, when I was coming under attack from several directions at once...and he made it 10 times harder for me than it needed to be by withdrawing his support. There was something else he did which was much worse, but I don't know how to describe it without getting more specific than I think I want to right now. Suffice to say he set me up for a guilt trip that made me think suicide was the only honourable response. Sadly all this only made me more desperate to win back his unconditional love and support, and to be worthy of being treated with respect by him. It was so *ucked up I can barely believe it happened. I'm going to write a book about it once there's a bit more distance between me and the rawness of it all.

 

So knowing now that he's the one with the problem, the irrational fears he can't confront, the ability to walk away from the very thing (me) he's always yearned for leaves me in a much better position. I know he's felt intense guilt over his behaviour and that it conflicts with his principles and view of himself as a decent honourable person. For some reason I swear I will never understand I seemed to bring out the very worst in him despite the fact that, unlikely as it might sound to you, he really did love me and I believe still does. He's going to have to live with what he's done and what he's lost. So this time I've come out on top in a way, even though part of me still longs to be with him and for him to treat me right...but this too will pass.

 

I know CBT works, I did a bit of it during "the gap" and I did a positive thinking course which wasn't that different to CBT principles. The weird and frustrating thing about me is that when I'm feeling as despondant as I've felt in recent weeks I resist taking actions to make myself feel better. I have an overwhelming urge to wallow in my misery. It's like some need I have to inflict maximum pain on myself the honour the love I've lost. I recognised a couple of weeks ago that I was subconsciously making myself physically sick and was trying to drive myself into hospital as a way of demonstrating to the world at large how much pain I was in. I think that was me hitting rock bottom and it's been moving slowly upwards since that point.

 

I can't tell you how important stumbling on the whole commitment phobia thing, and recognising that's what he is, has been for me. I can now believe that I'm OK and have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. I was honest with my feelings, pure in my love and always acted honourably and with respect. I am such a good person - he really doesn't *ucking deserve me.

[Tonia2]

Wow... that is all powerful stuff. I particularly like the stuff about wallowing in order to honour what you had - its bullsh*t really, isn't it? I am sure that they aren't doing more than looking back mildly nostalgically and they are the ones who gave up effectively.

 

Sounds like he did a lot of pretty unpleasant things - it is funny seeing so clearly in you what objective outsiders are probably seeing in me. Why do you want him back? Don't we deserve to be loved properly? I can tell myself all of this, but am deluding myself that if he came back again, this time it would be different. He even told me that he envies people who just accept happiness and don't question how happy they are in a relationship - that is just arrogant. It makes it seem like he is more complex than anyone else. I am sure other people don't just 'settle', but they are more accepting of us and our flaws.

 

I wonder if this topic is running out of steam? I am certainly enjoying it, but I hope I am not repeating myself too much - a stream of consciousness is helpful to me at the moment.

 

I am panicky and uneasy, because after his text telling me he is in Bracknell today, I have heard nothing. I suppose he probably thinks the onus is on me to call him, after his text, but I know I shouldn't. I am desperate to talk to him and not to lose our intimacy gained yesterday evening though. I need to be reminded that that intimacy is false, and without a declaration of his intentions and that he made a mistake, I have nothing to gain in the long term from it. Hard lessons we are learning, eh?

[jasondotcom]

It is bullsh*t the wallowing stuff and I know it. I know he's looking after himself, moving forward with his life, putting his feelings for me to one side (for now at least) and feeling only a fraction of the pain and turmoil I am. When I told him a bit about how I was wallowing and it was because he'd been so important to me and losing him was a big deal for me, he said "well, it's your choice". So it's not as if he even has much sympathy or understanding of what I'm doing (was doing I should say) to myself. He certainly doesn't see it in the sadly romantic way I felt it. I really don't know for who's benefit it is supposed to be. I believe it is simply my way. I always seem to manifest emotional pain in some physical form. I tell myself it's how I let go, purge myself. My best mate told me the other day "you have got to find a new way". He's right - I really, really cannot afford to do anything to jeopardise my health.

 

You know I think to some extent I've replaced my CP addiction with a love shack addiction. When I read your comment about "maybe this topic is running out of steam" I panicked for a moment. I'm not having a good day, and I've been doing so well. What the hell is wrong with me!

 

Why do I want him back? Why do I want him back! Why why why. I tell myself it's because this is true love. That I believe in romance and that love conquers all. But it's crap isn't it? Delusional bullsh*t. I feel like going out and smashing some windows. I have got to get a *ucking grip.

[jasondotcom]

Tonia, about your desperation to talk to him and your panic after receiving his text. Just remember there is no hurry. You only saw him yesterday (depending on time zones...I can't think clearly enough about that right now!). He's out of the office and busy presumably, and you need some space. Now, while you're feeling a degree of desperation, is not the time to make contact. You seem to know this. Be strong. I don't know that the intimacy from yesterday evening is false as such, but it certainly isn't a sign of any more fundamental shift on his part. Hard lessons is right! What pisses me off is that I've successfully dealt with much bigger problems than this. When it comes to him I'm helpless, pathetic, utterly stuck. Well right now I am at least...I just need to regain perspective I guess. I was forewarned there'd be relapses, that's all this is probably.

[Tonia2]

Thanks Jason. I didn't call him last night (it is now Thursday morning here) and I haven't emailed him yet today, but it is taking every ounce of self-control...

 

I know what you mean about replacing the addiction, but this is sooo much healthier, so I don't really care. I just wish I didn't have to think about him all the time. That f*cking intimacy is so seductive, and takes me right back to where I was. I can almost pretend that he is still my boyfriend when he is stroking my cheek in the cinema. Sad, isn't it?

[jasondotcom]

Good for you in not calling last night. If it were me I'd be pretty tempted to shoot off a casual sounding email, but while you've got your self control under...err, control, you're probably best to stick to that. Yes I suppose this is a whole lot healthier, and I know I'm wearing thin on those around me who I talk it through with. I haven't confronted the intimacy thing (yet), but I can tell you right now that would seriously do my head in. I can only imagine how much harder that must be making it for you. It is sad, yes. But you're not sad.

[Tonia2]

This is just like every other addiction that I have had to deal with, and I should be able to cut it out like those other addictions. It is so much harder with a person though.

 

I relapsed on one of my other addictions last night and I don't think that is helping to be honest.

[Tonia2]

Please don't be offended by the yank comments! Just an 'in-joke' I am muddling along, still making lots of mistakes. I am sure you are desperate to put me out of my misery!! I feel OK though, and am ignoring this. Seeing him for how self-centred he is - like my life is a barrel of laughs at the moment! I cannot feel sorry for him, so that is an advance on my usual feelings.... emails start below:

 

 

agree. all these people, even yanks, jumping on the kilt bandwagon. tis a travesty. and don't even try to maintain that l is a jock cos if she's a wee pal of yours then I'm afraid that rules her out.

 

sorry I did feel slightly put on the spot - always seems like a bit loaded question when all I'm doing at the moment is try to get my life back on track. not feeling very happy right now - in fact feeling pretty aimless and planless.

 

glad tomorrow looks like being on. hope enjoy your trip to t.

 

 

 

> -----Original Message-----

>

>

>

>

> Do you remember Li? Cool picture, but I am never sure about these

> Americans who dress up as Bonnie Prince Charlie at the first sniff of

> a celebration.

>

> Sorry if you felt I cornered you, asking how you are feeling. I still

> care about you, and it's hard not to enquire about your emotional

> welfare. You make it hard though.

>

> I have just spoken to Tand looks like tomorrow is on, so you

> probably won't see me unless there is a downturn in the weather. I

> hope you have a good match.

[jasondotcom]

"How are you feeling?" is a loaded question? Like "you seem to be playing hard to get" isn't a loaded comment!! That's great that you're not getting sucked into feeling sorry for him. I still struggle with that, imagining the conflict my ex felt in deciding to end it, when for all I know he's just feeling relieved to be rid of me! So you are doing well. His behaviour towards you in recent days strikes me as a bit weird and not particularly fair, and that's putting the kindest spin I can manage on it. He doesn't seem to understand or care how it all comes across to you and the confused signals he's sending. What do you think is going on in his head, or is it just that he's self centred?

 

I'm glad you're ok with it and ignoring his little display of neediness.

[Tonia2]

I have no idea! I think that he hates being confronted about his feelings (particularly when he is at work about to go into a meeting to be fair!) but it does stagger me that he can be so self-centred. I asked him to drop his keys at the flat yesterday and he said that that was fine, and that if I didn't mind he would also probably watch the football on my sky tv... (he knows I am away). I don't really care if he does or not - but I think deep down I am trying to hold onto that thread of familiarity - where he comes and goes from my house. It helps me hold onto the illusion that we haven't cut the ties. I would love to know his thought processes though - I know it was nothing like this with his ex-wife.

 

It is like he can't deal with the reality of not being my boyfriend either... He also offered for me again to take my car over to his off-road person, and that along with the comment that he would still help me with my finances are all weird. Also, last week after he spent the night, while eating his scrambled eggs, he turned to me sincerely and asked, 'are you OK for money?'

 

I just laughed and said 'yeah, I think so thanks sugar daddy!' So in summary, if you have any insight into what the hell might be going on in his head, it would be much appreciated!