Should I Stay?

[Spade]

I joined to ask this one question... I am 21 and my boyfriend, Keith, is 27. We have been together for a year and a half and live together. When we met, I was with someone else, whom I didn't really love, and who I left because I began to have feelings for Keith. We didn't get right together; I dated around for a while before he even asked me. After a few dates, however, we were exclusive. He moved in, a few months ago, for technical reasons, rather than simply romantic (I needed a roomate to replace two that I threw out, and he wanted to move out of his parents' house). I should note that we are of different but similar faiths, and that neither considers our living arangement to be a "sin." We both have good jobs; I have two and pay college tuition myself. Our families are nearby and adore both of us. We rarely argue, although we debate on subjects we both enjoy quite a bit, because we have established ground rules and try to follow them. Above all, I love him. He makes me feel safe. He is romantic, funny, intelligent, responsible, generous, well-read, and shares many of my interests. We have the same outlook on children (neither one of us want them) and we are sexually compatable. We have helped one another work through emotional hangups from earlier relationships, as well as current health and social/family issues, and are different people than we were when we met.

 

I am happier now than I have ever been, but a shadow has fallen over our relationship. I want to be married someday, and Keith has made it clear that he doesn't. At first, I was convinced that he had baggage from his parents' extremely messy divorce, and tried to bring up the subject a few times to see if he would talk about it. He recently told me that his stepmom (who is a wonderful woman; his father is her third husband) told him that it isn't worth it. I have told him why I want to be married, and although some of my reasons seem superficial or childish out loud, they are all points that are deeply important to me. He claims that there's nothing wrong with living together forever, and that this is his intention. One might think that he is saying this to take advantage of me, but I completely believe that he does intend to be together indefinately.

 

It isn't that I want to be married now, or even engaged, but I know it's foolish to think that, if I stay with him, he'll change his mind. If I stay, I'm dedicating myself to being an unwed wife: I'll do his laundry, cook meals when his friends are over, and sleep in his bed. We'll never own a house together and I won't have his last name. When asked, I will say that this is a lifestyle we chose together, but I may end up resenting him for not sharing my dream. And just as I retire, he'll die, and I won't even get to be a widdow, just the girlfriend at the time of death. (Our state doesn't even have commonlaw marriages anymore.) At the same time, I love him dearly and don't want to leave him. We make a good team. I don't ever want to look at our relationship as wasted time, but I wonder if it is wise for me to continue to try to build a life with him, knowing that his goals are different from mine. I don't want to make a mistake by staying, but I'm not convinced that leaving is the best choice, either.

 

Thoughts?

[Moose]

If you love him, stay. Don't you know that marriage is just a formality now? People don't take it seriously anymore. It doesn't have the same value as it did, say even 10 years ago. This is the new world, honor and obey have no meaning here anymore. Death do you part has no meaning, and nobody ever does this anymore anyway. It's a damn shame, but it's the truth. If you love him stay. And hopefully, someday, the real meaning of marriage will hit him upside the face, and then he'll give you his name......I can only pray.......

[Spade]

I don't know how long I can sit around acting like a wife with no benefits or promise of improvement, before I'll feel like he's using me. He may think it's just fine not to be married, but it's important to me. If he intends to be with me forever anyway, what difference will the piece of paper make to him? All he'll lose is a little freedom, no staying out late without calling, no ditching, no running away from problems or taking the easy way out. I've already given up these things. I don't think it's too much to ask for him to think of my position in the relationship. No one will ever ask him why he isn't married. They'll ask me. They already ask me. I'm tired of trying to give satisfactory answers that preserve his image. (I feel that one's significant other should be the most important person, and that a woman should stand by her love, as opposed to others, even when he's wrong. Old fashioned, but it's a value that speaks to me) I know I should respect his feelings, but at what point is it evident that he isn't respecting mine? How much time do I have to spend, waiting for a change that I can neither force nor expect to happen on its own?

 

I've just flipped through the "ultimatum" thread. I admit that I've thought about this. I imagine that I tell him, "In six months, we will take a day off and talk about how we feel. From now until then, I want you to think about what you want out of life and make a decision." And I don't even want a ring, necessarily, just acknowledgement of his intentions.

 

I'm a mess over this. I cry every day. I don't want to be just the girlfriend my entire life, but I don't want to leave him, and I'm afraid I can't reconcile the two.

[moimeme]

All he'll lose is a little freedom, no staying out late without calling, no ditching, no running away from problems or taking the easy way out

 

It's not that you want to be married but that you think that him marrying you will change him. It won't. He'll do exactly the same things when he's married. If you want him to change his behaviour, ask for that, don't ask him to marry you. Too many people seem to think that marriage magically transforms people into more responsible, more loving, more considerate humans. If that was true, there wouldn't be divorce.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by moimeme

It's not that you want to be married but that you think that him marrying you will change him. It won't. He'll do exactly the same things when he's married. If you want him to change his behaviour, ask for that, don't ask him to marry you. Too many people seem to think that marriage magically transforms people into more responsible, more loving, more considerate humans. If that was true, there wouldn't be divorce.

 

marriage will change a person's behaviour. and this is because the realtionship changes after marriage cause now it is legal and people feel they "own" the other not to mention financial, parenting, families, etc... the interpersonal dynamics of the couple also get modified cause now expectations are higher and there is more to lose. ergo, their behaviour changes.

[whichwayisup]

We'll never own a house together and I won't have his last name. When asked, I will say that this is a lifestyle we chose together, but I may end up resenting him for not sharing my dream. And just as I retire, he'll die, and I won't even get to be a widdow, just the girlfriend at the time of death. (Our state doesn't even have commonlaw marriages anymore.) At the same time, I love him dearly and don't want to leave him. We make a good team. I don't ever want to look at our relationship as wasted time, but I wonder if it is wise for me to continue to try to build a life with him, knowing that his goals are different from mine. I don't want to make a mistake by staying, but I'm not convinced that leaving is the best choice, either.

 

Thoughts?

 

Actually you can buy a house together, you can legally change your lastname to his...I don't know how long the living arrangement has to be where you are, but after atleast 2 years of living together you become 'legally' commonlaw married. You can get Wills drawn up, that way if anything ever happened to either of you - You're taken care of by LAW because of what is put down in the Wills.

 

My husband and I are commonlaw. I just call him my husband because HE IS my husband...Minus the piece of paper, wedding and the ring...(though I would LOVE all the gifts!) We feel married because we made a committment to be together forever.

 

When I was younger I always thought I would get married. He was married once before and I guess the second time around isn't a big deal to him...But if I really WANT to get married he'll do it for me...Right now we're just too lazy to actually get it together and do it, but I know in heartbeat he'd marry me.

 

Have you told him all your thoughts on this? Everything you've put down here? What about couples therapy?

 

I don't know how long I can sit around acting like a wife with no benefits or promise of improvement, before I'll feel like he's using me. He may think it's just fine not to be married, but it's important to me. If he intends to be with me forever anyway, what difference will the piece of paper make to him? All he'll lose is a little freedom, no staying out late without calling, no ditching, no running away from problems or taking the easy way out.

 

This above should be happening now....The bottom part of it I mean...The committment, respect of calling if one is going to be late, common sense and courtesy it is called. Marriage is NOT going to force that into him if that is what you're hoping for.

 

Why would you feel like he is using you? I don't understand what you mean by that. Putting an ultimatium on someone is dangerous...Just be really careful and make sure you can live with what choice he decides to make.

 

I agree 100% with Moose...If you love him so much stay with him. And Find out about commonlaw and wills etc... Do a google search and see what comes up.

 

Nothing is perfectly secure in life...September 11th certainly shook up everyone's stability in one way or another. A piece of paper is not going to change how he feels about you. Love is love, committment is committment.

 

I hope this helps abit. Keep posting.

[Spade]

Our state does not have commonlaw marriage anymore. Besides, I want to be married, not considered married by law just because I haven't changed addresses in a while. It's not only the ring and the dress, but that's part of it. I want to make a verbal committment in front of my friends and family, and in accordance with my religion. I want it to be an active choice, not something that just falls into our laps. I want to have a day I can be proud of, and a husband I can be proud of. Being a girlfriend is not the same thing, even when living together.

 

I have a will, but he doesn't, and doesn't think it's important. And, changing my name won't change the fact that we aren't married. I won't be entitled to any benefits. We won't share insurance. If I became a house"wife," I would legally be an unemployed bum. We wouldn't own a house together; what's the point of going through all that extra paperwork and expense, when one of us could buy it alone? And if he dies right after I find out I'm pregnant and I decide to keep our child, that child will be illigitimate. Besides, I'd still be a Miss. I wouldn't have the spiritual ceremony, and I'd have to lie and say we were married, because everyone would assume that from my last name.

 

It isn't that he stays out all night, etc, but he could if he wanted to, and many of the people I know would think I had little to gripe about. The point I was trying to make is that he wouldn't be giving up a lot. "It isn't worth it" often seems like it isn't a good enough excuse for refusing to even consider something that I see as a life goal.

 

Sometimes I think he's taking advantage of me and that not considering marriage is a symptom. I support his career, friendships, and goals. Why doesn't he support my goal of being wed? Why doesn't he have a better list of reasons to defend his position? Thus far, I have been able to convince myself that I'm being paranoid. But, I'm scared to death that one day I'll believe it's true and I'll be so angry and hurt...

 

I wish I could just forget about it, but I think about it all the time. Am I just being nuts?

[binturong]

No, you're not just being nuts. You have very valid concerns. Also, do either of you want children? Because I can see marriage playing a role in that. To be honest, if I were in your position, I wouldn't stay. If he knows how important marriage is to you and still won't consider it, then if you stay with him, you'll be miserable.

[krbshappy71]

I'll do his laundry, cook meals when his friends are over, and sleep in his bed. We'll never own a house together and I won't have his last name.

 

I am living with someone now who also says he will never be married. However, I also have certain favors I will not provide without that. I do not do his laundry, I cook because I have two children to provide for, I sleep with him because I want to. Does this make sense? I am only doing those things that I wish to do because I am not receiving the full package from HIM either. No, he does not have to come home from his friends at a certain hour, but we do let each other know what we are up to, out of courtesy. If you feel you are getting the raw end of this deal, figure out what exactly you resent, and pull back from those things. As someone else pointed out, you CAN buy a house together, draft up any paperwork you require to protect yourself such as wills, life insurance policies, etc. He understands that there are certain things I will not do because of our living together situation. One of them is I will not move for his job. I have children that would be affected by this, and I refuse to do it for a boyfriend/girlfriend/SO situation. A husband, however, is a stronger bond in my opinion and I would probably consider moving if him and I took our relationship to that next step. He has gotten job offers in different states and passed them up, its his choice to stay with me. I have made things quite clear what I will and wont do at this level of commitment. I feel good about our arrangement, I do not feel taken advantage of because I'm enjoying our compromises, and I'm also enjoying the freedom (and tax returns) of not being married. HA! Anyhow hang in there and do some real thinking about what it is you want from marriage, and whether or not you can get it in a different way from him so you both feel you are winning.

[Spade]

binturong: Neither one of us want children. But, that aspect throws me into another round of hysterics. A long time ago, I terminated a pregnancy (myself). I am pro-choice and don't regret what I did at all. However, there is a seriously messed up emotional state that one has to go through after one ends or prevents life, however she sees it. I did it alone that time, and suffered for years. If I am faced with the same situation later in life, I would rather there not be any illusion that he can cut rope and run without consequences. I know we would agree on the course of action, but what if it "ruins it" for him? That kind of situation has shattered marriages. What would it do to a bf/gf relationship, especially at 40?

 

 

krbshappy71: I enjoy doing things for Keith, but I dread taking on the lifelong responsibility of being a wife without getting any of the things I want. Thank you for your advice to see if some things can be found in other ways. I will try that.

 

Update: We have talked about this again, but, as usual, he became indifferent and ended the conversation. (Other times he gets angry that I "put him on the spot") A good friend confided in both of us that he has feelings for me, though nothing will ever come of it. An ex, who just came out of the closet, has been calling. I wonder if that is making things worse. I don't think I approached the subject well anyway; I had been upset and he caught me all teary-eyed and asked what was wrong, so I told him. I should be more organized and calm, shouldn't I?

[Spade]

Long Version:

 

Ok. I took some of your advice. I sat down and made a list of all of my goals that are connected to marriage, then figured out exactly why I want them. Some of them I checked off, because they are fulfilled by our current situation, and others I marked that they could be fulfilled if things changed a bit. I made a cup of tea and sat Keith down and explained to him everything that had been happening, that I had asked for advice here and from friends and family, and what had been said to me. He was pretty much quiet the whole time.

 

I told him that he'd been pretty clear by his attitude and specific statements that he never intended to be married. I explained that marriage is important to me, and why, and showed him the list. I also made a point to tell him that I don't expect a ring within six months, or even a year and a half, but that I do want to feel like our goals are the same. I didn't come out and say, "this is a deal-breaker," but he knew that I have been walking the fence between leaving and being miserable, and staying and being happy with "miserable undertones"...

 

The first thing he said was that we may not know each other well enough to decide if that's what we should do. I thought he was going to break it off with me, so I started crying, and he started crying. He said he's mostly just afraid of making a mistake and committing too much too early, so he subscribed to the "no marriage" thing to protect himself. He said he was basically scared out of his mind to commit, and thought that there should be a scientific test to be sure it would work. My response: We're good friends, good lovers, good partners, and well-rounded individuals... and both so hard-headed that, if we said we wouldn't quit, we wouldn't, even if we're in a car accident and have to live as brains in jars! lol He even said he'd thought about what kind of ring he would get me, and almost told me all about it, before I plugged my ears. By this time we had migrated from the kitchen table to the living room floor (we do this a lot while talking/debating), and he put his arms around me and said, "I didn't realize you were looking that far toward the future. I promise you won't be a fifty-year-old girlfriend."

 

After that, we talked about marriage in general: what kind of ceremony would there be, would I wear a white dress, should he ask my father's permission before proposing... Turns out, his dad has been asking him every time they talked when he was going to pop the question. (I'm glad; I wasn't entirely sure his dad liked me that much, but I guess he thinks I'm ok.) We agreed that the ball is his now and that he can go for it whenever he decides is right, a year from now, three years from now, whenever. And, in the meantime, we will talk about it periodically, just casually, to remind ourselves what the goal is and work through other worries as they pop up.

 

Short Version:

 

We have come to a concensus. We will eventually be wed, if we last and stay strong. And that's all I really needed to hear. My smile is the size of Wisconsin.

 

Thanks, everyone, for your help. I really appreciate it.

[binturong]

Oh good! Nice to hear you had a good, productive conversation about it. Glad it turned out well for you.

[Moose]

You guys are the perfect example of what other couples need to be doing. I'm glad you chose to work things out calmly! I've always said there's a difference between talking and having a conversation. You did the right thing, you sat him down and had a conversation. PERFECT! Is everyone taking notes yet?

[krbshappy71]

CONGRATS CHICKY!! Now you know the WHOLE story...thank goodness you two could talk it out. It's awful to have so much to say and yet have difficulty coming across with it...feelings get hurt so easily with these sorts of topics. I'm happy for you!!

 

Me, I'm just gonna enjoy not doing his laundry...heeheee...

 

congrats again on coming together w/your honey.