Hit Like a Ton of Bricks -Wife Doesn't love me

[jmargel]

Sys.. please.. stop overworking your mind with this OM. The OM is not the problem here, it's the problems that are between you two. Fix what you can and don't worry about the stuff you can't.

 

As for reconnecting start off small. Take a walk with her outside, while in the middle of the walk just hold her hand. No need to say anything to her. Sometimes the greatest things said are in silence.

[Owl]

Jmargel-

 

You're right, and at the same time friend, you're wrong. The OM is NOT the problem....totally agreed.

 

But there isn't ANYTHING he can do fix the problem until the OM is out of the picture. Nothing he does will be received by his wife in a manner that will repair their relationship. NOTHING. He can do anything, but as long as she's still got her eyes on the OM, she won't care. At all. She'll find tons of reasons why it doesn't matter (like, "too little, too late", or "you're just doing that to get me back, you won't keep it up for long").

 

The OM is not the source of the problem...the problems in the relationship were. But, he may as well be shouting in the wind as far as fixing his marriage while she's focused on the OM. I've seen it here, I've seen it over on MB, and I saw it in my own personal life. She won't be willing to allow herself to see the changes until she's past the OM. And she won't EVER get past him if he's still in contact with her, in any way shape or form.

[whichwayisup]

But there isn't ANYTHING he can do fix the problem until the OM is out of the picture. Nothing he does will be received by his wife in a manner that will repair their relationship. NOTHING. He can do anything, but as long as she's still got her eyes on the OM, she won't care. At all. She'll find tons of reasons why it doesn't matter (like, "too little, too late", or "you're just doing that to get me back, you won't keep it up for long").

 

I agree..As long as the OM is part of the picture, she won't be thinking clearly and putting her husband first. She still will be in a bubble and living in a unrealistic world.

[sysyphus]

I'm really working both sides of the problem. I'm trying to get over the NC and the associated withdrawal in hopes that then the real work can begin, but at the same time I am doing all the things that you are suggesting. We are spending all of our free time together, we are talking more than we have in years. I am successfully making changes in my behavior to correct the things that led to the problems in the marriage in the first place. Those things may be falling on deaf ears right now, but I hope that once the fog lifts, she will see what I've been doing and will continue to do.

 

In many ways I know she sees the difference -she's said as much but her perception of the situation isn't great (yet). She has said she sees a big difference in me, but has said "but now I'm angry that it wasn't like this all along", or "maybe it's too late", etc. I'm letting that stuff roll off my back now though and trying to keep a positive spin on all of her negativity.

[whichwayisup]

In many ways I know she sees the difference -she's said as much but her perception of the situation isn't great (yet). She has said she sees a big difference in me, but has said "but now I'm angry that it wasn't like this all along", or "maybe it's too late", etc. I'm letting that stuff roll off my back now though and trying to keep a positive spin on all of her negativity.

 

She sees the effort and the difference NOW because it is out in the open...Before it wasn't and she hid all this from you and DID NOT tell you she was unhappy. She really has no right to be angry with you! If you back then what the problem was, and/or if she came forward and openly discussed that the marriage was on the rocks, YOU would have known and changed things back then. But, now you know and things seem to be worked on. The thing is Sys, she is putting alot of the blame on you and not enough on herself. She still was the one who cheated, not you.

 

I am glad that you both are closer and talking about it all now. And that you are letting those things go. Because it is her perception of how things are right now and she still isn't thinking 100% clearly on what's infront of her.

 

I'm glad that you are taking the positives out of it. Tomorrow always brings hope.

[sysyphus]

She sees the effort and the difference NOW because it is out in the open...Before it wasn't and she hid all this from you and DID NOT tell you she was unhappy. She really has no right to be angry with you! If you back then what the problem was, and/or if she came forward and openly discussed that the marriage was on the rocks, YOU would have known and changed things back then.

That is the single fact that causes me the most anguish and turmoil, the regret that she never ... said...a ....word. More than the affair. Because I love her, I would have never hurt her on purpose and yet she couldn't tell me b/c she didn't want to hurt me! Like the saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". If this thing goes south, that simple inaction will likely haunt me more than anything else. I'll need to seriously deal with that issue. If it goes well, it sure as hell won't happen again. That's the hope, that we come out ofthis better and stronger than when we started. Gotta hope.

 

One thing that our MC has emphasized is that there is NOTHING that can be done about the past. We can learn from it, but it can't be fixed, so I think we are both trying to look past the past as best we can and work on the now.

 

A related comment from the MC: "I'm always amazed that we never have the time to do things right, but we always have time to do them over".

 

And yes, she really has no right to be blaming me, but I don't think she's thinking clearly enough yet -still very much in the "taker" mode -I'm rolling with the punches -it's really not as bad as it might sound. At a certain point though, I do need to see progress on her part. Counting largely on the MCto guide this process -I'm too impatient on my own.

[whichwayisup]

A related comment from the MC: "I'm always amazed that we never have the time to do things right, but we always have time to do them over".

 

Geez, how true is that? Actually, that can be used for just about anything in life too.

 

And yes, she really has no right to be blaming me, but I don't think she's thinking clearly enough yet -still very much in the "taker" mode -I'm rolling with the punches -it's really not as bad as it might sound. At a certain point though, I do need to see progress on her part. Counting largely on the MCto guide this process -I'm too impatient on my own.

 

I'm glad you see that too. No guilt should be on your behalf. You are doing all means necessary right now and when your wife comes around, she will too. If she doesn't, the MC will push her to do so.

 

That is the single fact that causes me the most anguish and turmoil, the regret that she never ... said...a ....word. More than the affair. Because I love her, I would have never hurt her on purpose and yet she couldn't tell me b/c she didn't want to hurt me! Like the saying goes "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

 

I wonder if she knew how this would turn out, how much pain she caused you - Would she have spoken up when she first started feeling differently? I think she could ease your pain on this if she were to just tell you she would and show how sorry she is that she didn't come forward.

 

That's the hope, that we come out ofthis better and stronger than when we started. Gotta hope.

 

Hope until there is no hope left...Then you hope some more.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by sysyphus

-I'm too impatient on my own.

 

Geez....you sell yourself too short there! We SELDOM see the patience you've displayed here at LS.

 

Reach around and give yourself a pat on the back....you are doing an awesome job!

[sysyphus]

Jane M'Lady, I don't have a choice! Thanks for the compliment.

[SleepingLover]

I am sorry you have to go through this. I know how painful it can be. I didn't get a chance to read all of the posts so I'm not sure if anyone else has brought this up or not. How old are you and your wife? It almost sounds like she is having a midlife crisis. My wife's midlife crisis destroyed our marriage. She didn't cheat with an online lover, hers was real. I asked for a divorce after struggling with the whole thing for a year. After the papers were signed and filed she kept trying to come back ...to get me back in her life, but the damage was done. She not only burned me bad with the cheating but spread lies about me through her family and our circle of friends. I never once cheated on her and had been loyal to her for 14 years and not long ago a mutaul friend whom I bumped into told me she had said that she found me in bed with another woman. Hah! I almost laughed but was floored at the same time.

 

I hope it works out for you. It has been difficlt for me to date again, not because I haven't had any prospects, but because I feel jaded. I have a big heart and am afraid to open it up again. Sometimes I wonder if I can and sometimes I just want to cry. Although to most people I may seem to have a lot of self esteem, it can be like a roller coaster.. one day I feel great about myself and how I look and the next day I feel just the opposite. Keep up the therapy even if it doesn't work out. You don't want to become a sad bloke like me hehe.

 

At the moment, my ex and I are still good friends and she knows it will never be "us" again. She is trying to hook me up with her best friend who was burnt by her fiance in a similar way. Her best friend is 24 about 14 years my junior and I am so hesitant because I constantly fear what happens if I do fall in love with her. I have known her best friend for about a year and we have always had great conversation and she is very attractive. Her personality is just so awesome as well. It wasn't until a little over a week ago that I found out that her best friend had a thing for me and so now I'm a bit terrified. I'm not sure "why" my ex is trying to get us together though? I'm not sure if it is guilt over what she has done to me and then saw the same pain in her friend's eyes after being ditched by her fiance, or what?

 

I just know this, the fallout of my relationship has caused me a lot of emotional scars and I hope to overcome them, but that is up to me. It doesn't seem fair, but that's life I guess. I can always pride myself in one thing even if I go on being Mr Lonely forever; I have always been a good man, great lover, great father and damn good husband. My esteem won't falter there... not one notch.

 

Oh BTW, I have been divorced for 3 years now and , hopefully, on the road to recovery. Like you I felt cheated and robbed, but today, although lonely and finally looking for Miss right again, I'm relieved. I really do hope yours works out for the better though and that your wife will open her eyes and see that she is making a huge mistake. If she continues on her fantasy path, she may just hurt herself in the end and when she comes around and realizes that she screwed up and wants you back, it may be just a heartache too late.

[sysyphus]

After telling you all how down my wife was at lunch, I was surprised to come home and find her in a much better mood -almost too good i you know what I mean. Now ordinarily, I'd say, well, she got over some hump, or the kids were really good for her, she got some head-time -whatever. But, given that in the recent past, the good moods come with contact with the OM, I get suspicious (I know, don't focus on the OM...). I know she was playing EQ2 yesterday afternoon -she had the game up when I came home and told me she was playing over AIM -thing is , the game alllows cross-server chat, and the OM plays on Tuesdays. She could have easily hooked-up with him on cross-game chat if she wanted. So now I'm paranoid.

 

Not sure how to handle it -wait for MC, or ask her up front how the NC is going?

[jmargel]

Ask her.. Nothing wrong with that. Ask this way: "Have you two had any contact?", and leave it at that. You can tell by the look in her eye and by the way she answers if she's telling the truth.

[whichwayisup]

I agree with JM...and the eye contact is really important. You'll know right away if she did/didn't talk to him.

 

Sys, you do have EVERY RIGHT to check up on her, she should know this and basically be an open book to you. If she isn't hiding anything then she has nothing to worry about. IF she did talk to him, ask her to read the conversation. (Or do you have keylogger installed?)

 

Definately bring the issue up too, in MC next time you go.

[Owl]

Sys-

 

I agree with both of the suggestions here...if you recall, I'd suggested the keylogger before. Bluntly, your wife has destroyed any trust you had with her. You can't and shouldn't trust her at this point. I seriously think that you should install a keylogger on the computer, and tell her that it's there. And tell her WHY it's there. Let her know the truth...that you dont' trust her, but if she wants to start re-gaining that trust, this will absolutely help her to do that. And it will force HER to keep honest too...because she won't be able to get away with anything anymore. If nothing else, you need this for your own piece of mind. I KNOW...remember, I've been where you're at.

 

I agree with asking her point blankly too. And when she gets angry and defensive (and she will), look her dead in the eye and tell her that it's your right to ask, after all that's happened. That there is nothing wrong at all with you asking. That she needs to be open and honest with you.

 

You've done a lot of great things to fix things and work through this. She's got to do that too. She's agreed to doing MC, which is a great first step. But, it doesn't end when you walk out of the MC's door. And while she may be hurting, she needs to recognize that you are too...and that there ARE things that she can (and should) be doing to help you out too! Even if she doesn't see you as a husband at this point, she owes you that much as a friend!

 

Hang in there...you're doing great. Don't hesitate to call the MC if you've got issues that need to be dealt with between visits too...like your concerns over NC, and how to ensure that it stays in place.

[SleepingLover]

It is interesting that your wife plays Everquest and it's interesting that you have brought it up a few times. I play it on occassion when I have nothing much else to do, but I encounter too many people on there whom romantacize an in-game aquaintence on the other end. I have had a few women come on to me there, but I back away from them. I go there to play a game and enjoy myself in doing so... not to pick up women or have them pick up on me. I prefer real life for that.

 

Also, too many people don't roleplay the game and that is what the game is about. I tend to prefer roleplaying my character but I find some women (and visa versa) take innocent/roleplay advances as serious ones. I have had to rethink how I come across when roleplaying so soem people don't take me seriously. When I think they are going in that direction, I usually just say "Hun, I'm roleplaying my character... whatever he says is not what I say". Recently I have started playing female characters since I don't have to worry about that problem and when a guy player comes on to me, I just say "Ahhh...dude..just so you know and don't get serious... her player is a guy " LMAO!

 

Does your wife realize that this is just a game? Does she envison the guy on the other end as a knight in shining armor similar to his character which she can see in game? When her fantasy comes crashing down it may be too late. She maybe needs to take a step back and remove herself from the game for awhile. Maybe then she will see just how silly she is being. Did they meet on the game?

[Owl]

Sleep-

 

While I'm not Sys, I know a bit about of what I speak. Take a look at my story here too... http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t49539/

 

My wife's affair all started with someone she met in EQ as well. And I can tell you it's NOT that they're in any way confusing real life and the game. It's a lot more like the situation where people meet chat rooms. They've got the same "blind" to hide behind...only instead of just a screen name, it's the whole character. And these kind of situations are VERY common...I know of a bunch of marriages that are suffering in the exact same way because of relationships that began in game.

 

The only real tie into the game is the fact that the game provides a great "neutral" meeting ground where people interact all the time. It's like a chat room, but without the stigma or "risks" of a chatroom....actually the risks are the same, but most people tend to minimize them when associated with an MMORPG.

 

She knows the difference between in game and real life. This is the exact same kind of scenario that happens with chat rooms/IMs. The emotional attachment is the same, the damage to the marriage is just the same. I can't speak about Sys's situation, but my wife and her OM exchanged pictures, emails, and a lot of phone calls. It started in game, but quickly grew out of game as well.

[sysyphus]

Does your wife realize that this is just a game?

 

She is quite realistic. The OM has been a friend via EQ for a number of years. He became her confident regarding her unhappiness in the marriage and the relationship went from there. Although there is that fantasy element, no, she see's him as a real person -as real as a person can be on-line anyway. The realtionhip progressed to IMing and phone calls -so the game was only a facillitator.

 

Does she envision the guy on the other end as a knight in shining armor similar to his character which she can see in game?

Hope not -he plays a Troll!

 

Anyway, thanks everyone for the advice -I'll talk to her tonight for sure. We've been so careful lately, stepping around stuff that I've been hesitant, but I think it's important that we start showing each other that we can have rational, real conversations about the situation without it going sour. I think I have enough of a handle on my emotions and enough perspective on the situation that I can deal with it calmly and just ask, get answer, give an appropriate response and get on with the rest of the night. Should it come out that she is having trouble with the NC, I'll refer her to the MC and if she seems to be honestly sticking to the program, I'll express encouragement and gratitude. Either way, I'll thank her for her honesty.

 

Thanks guys

[whichwayisup]

She knows the difference between in game and real life. This is the exact same kind of scenario that happens with chat rooms/IMs. The emotional attachment is the same, the damage to the marriage is just the same. I can't speak about Sys's situation, but my wife and her OM exchanged pictures, emails, and a lot of phone calls. It started in game, but quickly grew out of game as well

 

This senario is becoming more and more of the 'way of cheating' because of what you said above Owl. The emotional attachment, the fantasy of what the OP could be like, and how they make one feel. I saw an article recently about this and it is scary how REAL some fall into it. Doesn't always have to involve a game - Can happen on any kind of forum as well. Scary.

[SleepingLover]

Originally posted by whichwayisup

This senario is becoming more and more of the 'way of cheating' because of what you said above Owl. The emotional attachment, the fantasy of what the OP could be like, and how they make one feel. I saw an article recently about this and it is scary how REAL some fall into it. Doesn't always have to involve a game - Can happen on any kind of forum as well. Scary.

 

I think Whichway touched on it a little better as to what I meant. These people start out with a fantasy in their minds about the person behind the mask (EQ character, words in a forum etc etc). It is mysterious and titilating, but in the end it is still all fantasy even when it spills over into real life venues such as talking on the phone and sharing photos. They think they know the person to whom they are speaking, but in the end they still only know the "Character". I can be with someone in real life for a few months and spend a lot of time with them and still not REALLY know them. Relationship building takes time and getting to know one another. I could never say that I "love" someone just because of words on a screen or playing with them in a game. I won't say that I would never meet with someone whom I've met online, but I would never place the fantasy of such a situation over the possible reality.

[sysyphus]

Well, I just came out and asked her last night how he NC thing was going and she told me she had been sticking with it and that he had made to attempts to contact her either. I believe her.

 

I thanked her for her honesty and congratulated us both on being able to deal with the discussion without it going into a bad place (as it has in the past). I explained that no matter how things go, it's vital that I be able to trust her again (if for no other reason than the fact that we have kids ) and that the single most important factor in regaining that trust is that she be 100% honest with me about things like this. I added the caveat that if she finds herself slipping or being tempted to slip, that if she can't bring herself to tell me directly yet, that she at least call the MC about it.

 

The conversation went well and she seemed really understood what I was saying and feeling. I feel a lot better that we were able to talk openly and that she so readilly understood where I was coming from and was accepting of my state of mind.

 

Thanks to you guys for the encouragement -it really paid off. I think we both feel better for it.

[Owl]

Sleep-

 

I completely agree that it's a fantasy in that there is no way that they "truly" knew each other in any sense of the word. The way you phrased it appeared to mean fantasy centered around the game...which of course both Sys's wife and mine are adults, and fully understand the in game/out of game context.

 

My wife got seriously bent for a LONG time whenever I'd say that what she "shared" with her OM was a fantasy. But she's pretty much admitted that herself now that she's been out of it for quite a while. You're completely correct, even sharing the pictures and phone calls couldn't give them any kind of complete picture of the other person. THAT was what had me bothered when my wife was ready to pack up and leave...it scared me to know end to know that she really didn't know this guy at all, and was going to go live with him!!! It really does just go to show how irrational something like this can make a person.

 

Sys-

 

Very glad to hear that your talk went well. I do want to caution you about trusting too much, too soon however. My MC tried to warn ME about that as well...and he was right. Remember this was/is a powerful addiction, fully as strong as if she were taking drugs. The odds of her slipping up are high, as well as the odds of her not admitting it. Remember me telling you that my wife left her chat windows open during the time after she stayed while she was still "deciding"? She did it wanting to be "completely honest" with me...but never told me about the two calls she made to him during that time until I found out about them months later.

 

Hang in there friend...it DOES get easier and better. I'm looking at it from my end now, and it's a lot easier to deal with now than it was then. And I just see it getting better once we get past this one year mark that we're going through right now.

[sysyphus]

Owl, you are right, and I am not going on her word alone, will be checking up as best I can.

 

I was wondering -could you describe what is was like for your wife in terms of the progression from being "in the fog" to being out? I mean was there a slow transition or any sudden revelations? I know everyone's different, but in hoping that my wife does come through, I'd like to know what I might expect. At what point did you have any confidence that you turned the corner?

[Owl]

Sys-

 

You're totally on the money with how "everyone is different". I THINK that it was a lot different for my wife than it was for most. She came out pretty suddenly.

 

The first day that she spent back from the motel, we talked a lot. We walked around that afternoon when she didn't get on the airplane to leave, since neither of us could stand to just sit in the house and look at each other. She was "brutally honest" with me about how she felt about me, our marriage, about how I'd destroyed her hopes of happiness. That evening, we actually went to a friend's house (who knew what had gone on, they'd been helping me deal with my grief) for dinner...again, so we didn't have to face each other alone. She cried while she was there, and wouldn't accept any kind of consolation from any of us. That weekend, she began to clam up. The whole week or so following was pretty much the same. She clammed a lot, she lashed out at me a lot, she cried herself to sleep. When she WAS rational, she said that she didn't know WHAT she wanted to do at this point. We talked about what steps it would take for her to get out on her own. We filled out job applications, I helped her with her resume. She priced an apartment. She DID resume contact with him, but admitted to most of it, and left the chat sessions for me to see. We started going for walks everynite.

 

The next weekend, she announced that she couldn't take our sleeping arrangements anymore. We'd been sleeping on seperate couches in the living room (neither of us could handle the bedroom, I won't explain, but there you go). We rearranged the whole house, with me ending up down in the den, and her in a room upstairs by herself. It was pretty wierd for about two weeks after that...one minute, she'd be sensible, and we'd talk, and it felt like we were making progress, and the next BANG!!!, all hell would break loose.

 

Finally, after about three weeks, something happened that caused us to begin to be intimate physically. She stopped shortly after it started, saying that she couldn't do it. She cried, and went to her room. The next day, we got into a huge fight over IM's, and I came home with information about divorce, like she'd asked me to do weeks ago. I think that drove it home to her that I had limits too. We had a bit more of a row that nite, when she finally started to accept the fantasy portion of their relationship. One thing lead to another, and we became intimate. My wife has NEVER been able to seperate her feelings from physical intimacy, so this was a total breakthrough.

 

I stayed home (at her request too) the next day, and that began our re-building. She continued to yearn to keep contact with the OM "as a friend" for several weeks afterward, but that was the real end of her withdrawl, and the beginning of her REALLY working on our marriage. We went to an MC during this time, but it didn't really help...my wife refused to own up to her part in what was wrong in our marriage, refused to see that she had to CHOOSE to work on our marriage before it could get any better. She resented the counselor, whom she saw as being on "MY" side. We only went to that counselor one more time before going to the one we go to now, who has been a Godsend!

 

I hope this helps you some. Realize that it may not go like this for you. Just hang in there, stick to your guns, and do the best you can friend.

[sysyphus]

Things are going well here, and yet I'm feeling a lot of conflict -I suppose I can't expect everything to fall into place all at once or too quickly -if at all.

 

On the positive side, I've noticed a lot of talk on my wife's part about longer term plans -things not happening until the late summer and fall. I'll take that as encouraging ,but then again, she may still be a state of thinking she can have her cake and eat it too. Not going to push her on asking what she's thinking at this point. On the other hand, I still feel a strong distance between us that she is maintaining. She doesn't seem ready to close the gap yet. At least we are friendly. I keep telling myself that she's still in the withdrawal phase and it's going to be some time before I can expect her to come around, if she's going too. But sometimes, I see these little positive signs and I just want to keep them going and building ,and try to build some momentum. Still getting used to the dynamics of the situation and I still don't have a clear road-map to follow (if there is such a thing).

 

One thing that she has mentioned and that I know has been a source of trouble for her is that she feels she's lost her identity since becoming a stay-at-home mom. I don't know if I could have helped or ca nhelp in that area and I don't know if the OM was providing her with some alternate identity outside of the RL situation -it makes sense to me. I've been encouraging her to go back to work in whatever capacity she can, but it's been difficult finding work that fits her schedule. The trouble with finding work has also been discouraging to her , but really she hasn't been looking that long or with many place. I just think she's too exhausted to give it the energy it might need right now. I know she feels a lot of pressure to find work if for no other reason than to prepare for the possibility of having to make it on her own. I think she feels that if she can get a job, she would be free of that particular entanglement in terms of getting a clear handle on "what she wants". I think she sees it as a prerequisite for making any decision regarding the state of our marriage. Maybe this too will get easier for her if the fog lifts. It could be another obstacle put in place by her current state of mind to slow the process. Don't know.

 

On a good note, I'll be taking off from work all next week, so I think that should be a reasonable distraction to her if I can keep from driving her nuts. I think things are settled enough that maybe a week together (even with the insane herd of kids) could do us some good -we'll see. We will be spending time with the family Easter weekend and that will be stressful as no one has a clue as to what's going on and we're trying to keep it that way for now.

 

Tonight we're going out alone for the first time in I-don't-know-how-long (the fact that we have gone out alone less than a dozen times in the last 4 -5 years hasn't been a help to us). The MC gave us the week off and we thought we'd take his advice and just go out. Going to have dinner out tonight. Any suggestions on what I can do to make the most of it? The MC basically suggested we just have a date -keep it light and get reacquainted. I'm don't think talking about "us" is a great topic to go down in public, but I would like to try to reestablish some level of intimacy. Sad to say, but I'm looking for any useful conversation starters I can find.

 

 

Wish us luck tonight.

[jmargel]

Don't talk about the situation or the kids unless she brings it up. Let her decide what to talk about. You can try talking about good things that happened between you two in the past and try to relive some of those memories. It's a start. Just kinda try to follow her lead.