I don't get it.

[HermioneG]

I agree with the OP.

 

Those who endorse dishonesty are in the position of having done something that needs lies to cover themselves from consequences.

 

It is an amazing and well taken point by BH that the loudest voices for honesty are those who have been betrayed. There are occasionally a few voices of betrayeds that argue against it, but usually, upon examination, it is easy to discern something else is driving that response.

 

But healthy, whole people do not fear truth. Healthy, whole people know it is best to know reality, no matter how painful it is.

 

And anyone advocating differently, or providing a list of exceptions to the rule, usually has a strong reason why, and it's not actually the best interest of the person they have deceived.

[Snowflower]

I do understand this. But, the damage had been done. We couldn't go back. We couldn't undo the affair. But we could have spared her this misery two years down the line if she didn't know.

 

Again, I appreciate you stepping into the 'lions den' so to speak and have this discussion with the BSs on this forum. Thank you for taking the time to post!

 

I will say that I do completely disagree with the line of thought that if the WS/MP is leaving the marriage anyway (and does exactly that) that they shouldn't disclose that they are leaving because they had an affair. Even more so than if the spouse cheats, stops and then changes into a perfect spouse for the rest of the marriage.

 

I may stand alone on this but I think that in this scenario (a bit like yours, Goodyblue), the BS absolutely has the right to know. I have even seen Marriage Counselors suggest that the cheating spouse shouldn't say anything if they are leaving anyway.

 

What you end up with is a BS who will tie themselves into knots wondering why their spouse suddenly walked out on them. They may beg and plead for the spouse to come back and never learn what went so wrong. It doesn't sound healthy to me. What's more, they (the BS) may never be able to have a healthy relationship in the future because (a) they are still grieving the abrupt end of the marriage-at least as they perceive it and/or (b) they repeat the same mistakes that led to the marital breakdown in the first place-because they don't know any bette

I do understand that most BS's here say they wanted to know, and I do understand their reasoning to a point. But there are so many facets to the answer. Would you want to know if he left? Would you want to know if he stayed? If he stayed and was a million times more attentive, more loving husband? If he was a jerk face and stayed? If it was ONS? If was a serial cheater? If he didn't sleep with you during the affair?

 

In all those cases the BS should be told but especially if the cheating spouse is leaving anyway for reasons I mentioned above.

I guess my post may have seemed as though I am upset that she is putting us out or something with her actions. It's not that. It's that she is hurting herself. And for that I'm sad. I hold myself responsible for the damage caused to her by the affair, to a point. But there comes a time when a one needs to take responsibility for their actions. That doesn't just include WS and OW. It also includes BS.

 

I didn't get that impression from your post at all, goodyblue. I remember how angry you would be with her and that has greatly been tempered in your more recent posts.

 

I agree that everyone needs to take responsibility for their actions but so many like to play the victim card... in so many aspects of life, not just affairs. I've seen WS, AP and the BS here on threads in these forums all not appear to take responsibility for their actions.

 

I guess that is where the telling comes into play--it gives the BS a chance to look at their role in the marriage and learn from it. No one is a perfect spouse-no one.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Snowflower

[Hope Shimmers]

But healthy, whole people do not fear truth. Healthy, whole people know it is best to know reality, no matter how painful it is.

 

Unfortunately, not everyone is healthy and whole.

 

And anyone advocating differently, or providing a list of exceptions to the rule, usually has a strong reason why, and it's not actually the best interest of the person they have deceived.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm going to disagree with you on this one. I believe in my case it IS in the best interest of his BS. I have no desire to hurt her and in fact would do anything that I can to help her - and I have. I never wanted to hurt her. But I honestly believe that her H needs to take most of the responsibility for hurting her.

 

My ex-HH's "head in the sand" BS has a right to feel how she feels. It's a matter of opinion how people want to live their life.

[Spark1111]

Agreed. You'll remember, I hated her. Thought her stupid. Was rude about her. Now I just feel sorry for her. TBH, they should have just ended the marriage years ago.

 

The one thing that does bother me is that I won't be paying for an indiscretion for the rest of my life because their marriage was a mess. I made a mistake. I've done all I can to remedy it. I've moved on and I'm happy in my life.

 

I wish she would too. I wish she'd find someone with whom she had chemistry and love. I don't wish this so that I will feel better. I wish it for her. I'm going to be okay either way.

 

very, very gently....a mistake is often a one time occurrence. So is an indiscretion. Less than a year? That's a daily occurrence and a lifetime to a BS....

 

Known him....and HER for almost 20 years? Or just him?

 

She discovers a secret phone and the friendship has spanned 20 years? Yeah, I would wonder if her children were his and I consider myself one of the sane ones around here.

 

Whatever he told her....she didn't believe it at that point. She will never believe it.

 

All I can tell you is to move on...and support and encourage him to be a better man...to both you and her....the mother of his children.

 

You deserve it, and she does too.

 

Everyone deserves honesty, kindness and RESPECT.

[Spark1111]

Unfortunately, not everyone is healthy and whole.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but I'm going to disagree with you on this one. I believe in my case it IS in the best interest of his BS. I have no desire to hurt her and in fact would do anything that I can to help her - and I have. I never wanted to hurt her. But I honestly believe that her H needs to take most of the responsibility for hurting her.

 

My ex-HH's "head in the sand" BS has a right to feel how she feels. It's a matter of opinion how people want to live their life.

 

Because you had no desire to hurt her DOES NOT mean you are not hurting her.

 

You are not less culpable in the hurting of her than her H that you are having an affair with.

 

Someday, if you wind up in an exclusive relationship with your MAP, would you want his new OW to say....We never meant to hurt Hope but her man needs to take most of the responsibility.

 

WHEN you have an affair with a married partner, You ARE HURTING their spouse and children whether you personally desire or intend it or NOT.

[Hope Shimmers]

Because you had no desire to hurt her DOES NOT mean you are not hurting her.

 

You are not less culpable in the hurting of her than her H that you are having an affair with.

 

Someday, if you wind up in an exclusive relationship with your MAP, would you want his new OW to say....We never meant to hurt Hope but her man needs to take most of the responsibility.

 

WHEN you have an affair with a married partner, You ARE HURTING their spouse and children whether you personally desire or intend it or NOT.

 

Yes, if you have read any of my posts you will know that I certainly get it that the OW hurts the BS in an affair.

 

spark, I'm not in an A and haven't been for years. I never intended to get into an A. He was separated and living on his own for months when I started dating him, and both he and his wife were dating other people. What I did wrong was not run in the other direction when he started hedging about getting divorced and delaying things, but by then I was head over heels. I am not proud of that but I didn't knowingly get into a relationship with a man who intended to stay married.

[Hope Shimmers]

You are not less culpable in the hurting of her than her H that you are having an affair with.

 

And yes, in this case I AM less culpable than he is. He lied to me about his divorcing status and his intentions to be with me and strung me along for years while drawing out the divorce. He lied to her (the person he is married to) repeatedly too, at the same time, because he wanted to keep both of us. I was wrong, but he was worse.

[HermioneG]

And yes, in this case I AM less culpable than he is. He lied to me about his divorcing status and his intentions to be with me and strung me along for years while drawing out the divorce. He lied to her (the person he is married to) repeatedly too, at the same time, because he wanted to keep both of us. I was wrong, but he was worse.

 

I don't see you as an OW, I really don't. I see you deceived.

[HermioneG]

Unfortunately, not everyone is healthy and whole.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but I'm going to disagree with you on this one. I believe in my case it IS in the best interest of his BS. I have no desire to hurt her and in fact would do anything that I can to help her - and I have. I never wanted to hurt her. But I honestly believe that her H needs to take most of the responsibility for hurting her.

 

My ex-HH's "head in the sand" BS has a right to feel how she feels. It's a matter of opinion how people want to live their life.

 

He owes her the truth. The hurt is already done, she just doesn't know it.

 

Again- I don't see you as an OW- I see you as someone who was also deceived, unless I have missed a part of your story.

 

He absolutely owes her the truth. She needs to know who she is married to so she can make decisions about her own life. It's not having your head in the sand if you've been lied to, especially knowing the truth bias in longterm relationships.

 

The truth may hurt, but in the end, it is always, always better than a lie.

[goodyblue]

I don't think the chance of a crazy BS should stop honesty. Obviously she asked and it is good he answered. What would you want? Him to have lied.

 

Unless after a ltr the Ws keeps the Ap (if indeed it is the case of an exit affair or the Ws decides they want the AP more) secret for a year any BS is going to put two and two together. So being up front and honest will make a bad situation better. Now if there was an affair. And then a seperation. And the affair was over never to resume. I don't think the exWS should confess and add insult to injury unless the BS asks. If you are asked be honest. But if your marriage is over then why add that on.

 

Of course not. I was glad he was honest. I would have never forgiven him had he trickle truth'd or gaslighted her. Worse, lied altogether.

 

BUT... had she never known, she could have moved on and healed, looking at her part in the failure of the marriage. As it is, she's a martyr and he's an evil person who ruined her 'perfect, fairytale marriage'. Which it wasn't. But now SHE is the one rewriting history. I just think it's sad.

[gettingstronger]

I am firmly in the tell camp- although if you are an OW my suggestion would be to tell your MM to tell his wife, give him a reasonable amount of time to do so and then if he does not, you do it-

 

I agree with those that say as a BS that found out "the hard way" we do understand both sides-being told and finding out- and prefer the being told as kindly as possible-

 

Even with all the pain and anger- I am still glad I know-I see living a lie is so much worse-

[TiredFamilyGuy]

With Peaks on this. Deceit is theft and shatters the soul.

[AlwaysGrowing]

I am of the mindset "That which can be destroyed by the truth should be"

 

I am also confused by Goodyblue stating in her opening post that her husband has NOT told his xwife the length or what the affair entailed...then goes on to say that she would not have forgiven him if he TT'd or lied.

 

No one likes to be lied to....or have answers to questions held back from them. It is condescending. It is controlling.

 

And RightThere's point of the affair being a short fling that happened long ago as reason enough to not say the truth. Wouldn't one have to lie and withhold the truth for years for that scenario to play out? Does this then mean that all WS should just lie and wait enough years to pass then they can say.."look I've been faithful for x amount of years now...so my past unfaithfulness and lies no longer count". Wouldnt that mean that every WS should follow that path then?

[Hope Shimmers]

I don't see you as an OW, I really don't. I see you deceived.

 

Thank you for saying that. I really appreciate it.

 

I was wrong to date a separated man, though, and I was REALLY wrong to not get out of the relationship after I basically knew - despite what he was saying, his promises, our getting an apartment, etc - that he was not going through with the divorce. That is the part that was an affair to me. It took me way too long to screw my head on straight and get out of it, and I have the people here at LS to thank for the fact that I did. I wish I could do it over and I would walk away, but at the time I failed at it.

 

He owes her the truth. The hurt is already done, she just doesn't know it.

 

Again- I don't see you as an OW- I see you as someone who was also deceived, unless I have missed a part of your story.

 

He absolutely owes her the truth. She needs to know who she is married to so she can make decisions about her own life. It's not having your head in the sand if you've been lied to, especially knowing the truth bias in longterm relationships.

 

He told her the truth, actually. He initiated it - told her that he was in love with me. This was when it was still up in the air if they were going to stay married. She was angry that she was told and said that she wanted to know nothing else. So she doesn't know the details of our A at all. Her main concern was that he remain with her, and he has, so that works for her. I am no one to judge what works for her or anyone else.

[Appreciate]

I appreciate your honesty. She still may have suspected.

 

I stand by my point: The time to tell the spouse is when you want to pursue an attraction to another.

 

Still painful, but honest.

 

It's the lies that kill the soul and the psyche. that's what betrayal does.

 

Has anyone in the world ever done this?

 

It sounds logical but it's not how people work. No one is going to leave their spouse and family to purse an 'attraction' that may or may not work. Ideally, someone who tell their spouse they are attracted to someone else, or their spouse will ask the right questions about this new person in their life. Of course, you can ask someone "Are you attracted to this person" and they will say "no" or "He/she is attractive but I'm not attracted to him. Don't worry." and meanwhile they are keeping their little secret EVEN if they don't intend for it to go anywhere. Because they don't want to upset the apple cart and have the spouse be jealous. They aren't thinking this could lead to the destruction of their marriage and family. They are just enjoying the attention at that time.

[Appreciate]

Of course not. I was glad he was honest. I would have never forgiven him had he trickle truth'd or gaslighted her. Worse, lied altogether.

 

BUT... had she never known, she could have moved on and healed, looking at her part in the failure of the marriage. As it is, she's a martyr and he's an evil person who ruined her 'perfect, fairytale marriage'. Which it wasn't. But now SHE is the one rewriting history. I just think it's sad.

 

Eh? What's sad is that anyone would believe the version of events that a MM is telling.

 

I'm sure the BS knows much more about the real state of the marriage than any OM/OW knows. The marriage stopped being fairytale when the WS started an affair. Maybe it was fantastic before then. How would any OW/OM really know? They weren't there. Don't OW/OM's get the fact that they may have been a part of destroying a perfectly good marriage and family? Just because they cheated doesn't mean there was anything particularly wrong about the marriage. Maybe it was a problem with them..

[Snowflower]

Has anyone in the world ever done this?

 

It sounds logical but it's not how people work. No one is going to leave their spouse and family to purse an 'attraction' that may or may not work. Ideally, someone who tell their spouse they are attracted to someone else, or their spouse will ask the right questions about this new person in their life. Of course, you can ask someone "Are you attracted to this person" and they will say "no" or "He/she is attractive but I'm not attracted to him. Don't worry." and meanwhile they are keeping their little secret EVEN if they don't intend for it to go anywhere. Because they don't want to upset the apple cart and have the spouse be jealous. They aren't thinking this could lead to the destruction of their marriage and family. They are just enjoying the attention at that time.

 

Yes, sorry Spark but I gotta go with Appreciate on this one.

 

It's unrealistic to expect a spouse to admit to their attraction to someone else and evn in the unlikely event that you (general you) had a spouse who admitted this, would you really want to continue a marriage with them anyway?

 

I don't know why this scenario is different than a spouse who ends the affair and hopes to continue the marriage but for me at least it is.

[woinlove]

Yes, sorry Spark but I gotta go with Appreciate on this one.

 

It's unrealistic to expect a spouse to admit to their attraction to someone else and evn in the unlikely event that you (general you) had a spouse who admitted this, would you really want to continue a marriage with them anyway?

 

I don't know why this scenario is different than a spouse who ends the affair and hopes to continue the marriage but for me at least it is.

 

This is how most open M work. We discussion attractions, discuss them initially, discuss them as they catch more of our attention, discuss if we want to pursue anything. If after discussion, the other spouse feels uncomfortable or thinks it's a bad idea, we don't pursue and focus our attention on other matters.

 

While open M are obviously different, the ingredient they have that is useful for any M is lots of communication. Some people in closed Ms discuss attractions, which neither pursues, but in those cases both spouses feel comfortable with the idea that they'll sometimes feel attracted to another. There's a huge difference between feeling attraction and pursuing it.

[Snowflower]

This is how most open M work. We discussion attractions, discuss them initially, discuss them as they catch more of our attention, discuss if we want to pursue anything. If after discussion, the other spouse feels uncomfortable or thinks it's a bad idea, we don't pursue and focus our attention on other matters.

 

While open M are obviously different, the ingredient they have that is useful for any M is lots of communication. Some people in closed Ms discuss attractions, which neither pursues, but in those cases both spouses feel comfortable with the idea that they'll sometimes feel attracted to another. There's a huge difference between feeling attraction and pursuing it.

 

Good point.

 

I also like the idea of both spouses discussing attactions to others-with each other. This has not happened in my marriage. Unfortunately, my husband kept his attraction for another secret and the worst happened. But, I admire those who have marriages with good enough communication and trust to be able to discuss these types of situations.

 

Plus, discussing with your spouse the attraction you have for another often works to dispel the attraction while continuing to strengthen the communication and trust between spouses.

 

Still though, that is different than telling your spouse that you're attracted to your work colleague and that you're going to pursue it regardless of your marriage and spouse.

[woinlove]

Good point.

 

I also like the idea of both spouses discussing attactions to others-with each other. This has not happened in my marriage. Unfortunately, my husband kept his attraction for another secret and the worst happened. But, I admire those who have marriages with good enough communication and trust to be able to discuss these types of situations.

 

Plus, discussing with your spouse the attraction you have for another often works to dispel the attraction while continuing to strengthen the communication and trust between spouses.

 

Still though, that is different than telling your spouse that you're attracted to your work colleague and that you're going to pursue it regardless of your marriage and spouse.

 

Re bolded: yes, definitely! I wasn't sure if Spark was suggesting communication while still behaving as spouses/partners - that is caring what the other had to say and being open to the possibility of having it influence your decisions, or just being honest that you were checking out of the M and planning to do whatever you wanted. The second is not conducive to remaining married unless something really changes, but it would still be preferable to deceiving the spouse.

 

I've never cheated, but in my late teens when I felt my bf had already broken the trust but I was not ready to leave him, I behaved in the second way. I met someone I was interested in and when he asked me out, I said yes and told my bf I was planning to go. My bf tried to talk me out of it, didn't succeed, and we decided to end things. Looking back, I should have ended things before my feelings got to the point that I felt I wanted to do what I pleased, irrespective of him, but I wasn't mature enough then to see that. Still, honesty was better than the alternative.

[goodyblue]

I am of the mindset "That which can be destroyed by the truth should be"

 

I am also confused by Goodyblue stating in her opening post that her husband has NOT told his xwife the length or what the affair entailed...then goes on to say that she would not have forgiven him if he TT'd or lied.

 

No one likes to be lied to....or have answers to questions held back from them. It is condescending. It is controlling.

 

And RightThere's point of the affair being a short fling that happened long ago as reason enough to not say the truth. Wouldn't one have to lie and withhold the truth for years for that scenario to play out? Does this then mean that all WS should just lie and wait enough years to pass then they can say.."look I've been faithful for x amount of years now...so my past unfaithfulness and lies no longer count". Wouldnt that mean that every WS should follow that path then?

 

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear? On Dday he told her everything. She just refuses to believe it.

[goodyblue]

Eh? What's sad is that anyone would believe the version of events that a MM is telling.

 

I'm sure the BS knows much more about the real state of the marriage than any OM/OW knows. The marriage stopped being fairytale when the WS started an affair. Maybe it was fantastic before then. How would any OW/OM really know? They weren't there. Don't OW/OM's get the fact that they may have been a part of destroying a perfectly good marriage and family? Just because they cheated doesn't mean there was anything particularly wrong about the marriage. Maybe it was a problem with them..

 

The marriage stopped being a fairytale when she wouldn't touch him. Wouldn't spend any time with him, wouldn't go to therapy, wouldn't do a thing. So, in JUST MY CASE... I'm calling bullsh*t. Perfectly good marriage? Jesus. People don't have affairs if it's a 'perfectly good marriage'.

 

I've tried to be as honest as I can with this thread, because I think it is important. Clearly it isn't worth it. Enjoy your day.

[HermioneG]

The marriage stopped being a fairytale when she wouldn't touch him. Wouldn't spend any time with him, wouldn't go to therapy, wouldn't do a thing. So, in JUST MY CASE... I'm calling bullsh*t. Perfectly good marriage? Jesus. People don't have affairs if it's a 'perfectly good marriage'.

 

I've tried to be as honest as I can with this thread, because I think it is important. Clearly it isn't worth it. Enjoy your day.

 

Unless you have spoken to her at length, you have no idea if a) that was true or b) if it was true, if something precipitated that, such as a previous affair.

 

People do have affairs in perfectly good marriages. It sucks. But it's the truth. But the vast, vast majority of affairs are personal problem, not marital ones. And the best way to protect your relationship now, is to truly and utterly grasp that. We do not control other people. You cannot spin on a wheel and make someone not cheat. It doesn't work like that. I wish it did- because it would feel like an insurance policy, to know that if I treat my spouse well, there's no risk.

 

It's simply not true. The reasons people cheat are normally put into play long before the spouses even meet.

[HermioneG]

Although I disagree with her "it depends" stance on telling the spouse they have been betrayed, she explains affair reasoning well:

 

Esther Perel on affairs: Spouses in happy marriages cheat and Americans don?t understand infidelity.

 

Shirley Glass ( who advocates truth to the betrayed):

 

Dr. Shirley Glass - People Magazine - NOT "Just Friends"

 

Happy husbands cheat too, and even good marriages are susceptible to infidelity - National infidelity | Examiner.com

 

Beyond Betrayal: Life After Infidelity | Psychology Today

[Spark1111]

And yes, in this case I AM less culpable than he is. He lied to me about his divorcing status and his intentions to be with me and strung me along for years while drawing out the divorce. He lied to her (the person he is married to) repeatedly too, at the same time, because he wanted to keep both of us. I was wrong, but he was worse.

 

Then I agree with Hermione. You were deceived. That's a small minority of the OW who post here, IMO.

 

But I Reiterate that I was only ever one phone call away if she truly wanted the truth and gave that same advice to a GF of mine.

 

If he and she are both separated, dating and waiting to divorce....those time you can't reach him? Phone his home.