Do I tell him he's a commitment phobe? Is he cureable?

[jasondotcom]

A question about commitment phobia. It's just, finally, occured to me that my ex boyfriend (yes, that makes me gay) is a classic commitment phobe (I've been doing a lot of reading). We broke up about 5 weeks ago for the second time. After the first break up I took all the blame and believed the nit picking criticisms he'd subjected me to for a long time and used as his excuse for ending it. I'd had a lot (and I mean A LOT) of big stuff go down in my life a few months before our first breakup, and taking his criticisms onboard too launched myself into a major life transformation. A few months later we got back in contact, then got back together mostly on the basis that I had changed.

 

Before long the same pattern emerged again and I found it very hard to fend off his controlling and criticism which was so constant. It was crushing my ego and self esteem, which played into his hands making me appear even more passive and accepting of his crap, which was one of his major criticisms of me!

 

He's a classic commitment phobe because he did come on real strong in the early stages, then started backing off once I'd fallen in love with him. He had a fear of being engulfed and of being abandoned, nevermind that I was so devoted I wasn't going anywhere. He did the nit picking and criticism, sent me constant mixed messages and of course came back to me after he'd dumped me.

 

I can see from my actions and feelings in the relationship that I had fairly typical response to his commitment phobia. I believed his criticisms of me, my self esteem was suffering, I felt it was my fault he seemed to be pulling back, I was putting up with being hurt and didn't know how to challenge him on it. In short from my perspective the relationship ended up feeling like emotional abuse.

 

My problem is that I'm still completely, hopelessly, unconditionally in love with this man. I also have a lot of compassion for him because I understand very well the issues behind his commitment phobia. We want to remain good friends, but last time I saw him I stood up for myself and told it as I see it which he didn't like too much. He agreed with everything I said but felt I was blaming him and being a bit harsh, so now he's not sure he can be my friend. I'm sure he'll calm down on that and see I was just fighting my corner because he's a decent bloke at the end of the day.

 

So my question is about telling him I've worked out he's a commitment phobe. He's quite into self help, therapy, spirituality etc, so I think it could be very useful in his self development to have this pointed out to him and to do some work on it. I know I'll need to wait for the right time, and that may not be anytime soon. Generally what do people think of telling the commitment phobe you've worked them out, but for noble motivations not to hurt them?

 

I guess the other half of the question is whether commitment phobia is "cureable", and so whether by being a supportive friend who wants to help him with this stuff I can ever hope that we can try again one day? (I should say that I have accepted things as they are and let go, but it seems such a shame that two people so in love can't work this crap out!)

 

I have a couple of books on order from Amazon which may help answer these questions, but would like to hear from anyone with experience of this sort of thing.

[Tonia2]

Have you been reading ‘men who can’t love’ by any chance? Your situation is eerily similar to mine. Guy came on incredibly strong – wanted to be everything to me, including the father of my kids. He moved in with me (apparently a real trigger) and started backing off – he suddenly couldn’t handle my smoking, said I was overweight (all put across with the best will in the world, like he was ‘helping me’) and wanted to spend less and less time with me and mine. (wouldn’t plan holidays etc.)

 

Anyway, the trigger for our break-up (which is where this might apply to you) was that I printed off some stuff about commitment phobia from the internet and confronted him with it one ordinary, cosy evening. Disaster. He read it, identified with it and said that it didn’t reflect well on our relationship and that we ought to break up. Not really my objective when I gave it to him! I was hoping he was going to divorce his behaviour from our relationship, not think that our relationship caused his behaviour! So in short – I don’t think people like to be confronted with their flaws until they are ready to acknowledge them. If you feel you have nothing to lose, then by all means confront him, but please don’t expect him to be emotionally mature about it and take it all on board – can you imagine how ironic it felt that an article on commitment phobia caused our break up? In my case, I think it is going to take several more f*cked up relationships for him to realise that it might be his behaviour that is off – in the short term he might come back (this has happened before), but I cannot trust him until he has acknowledged his problem and accepted that he might need to do some work on himself. I would suggest the same for you.

[Tonia2]

I would also look at your objective for showing it to him. If you are hoping that it is going to turn on a lightbulb in his head and he will say, 'god what an idiot i have been, it has nothing to do wtih you', i think you are going to be very disappointed. If you are doing it purely altruistically for his next partner's sake, then cool.

[jasondotcom]

Thanks for your reply Tonia. Yes, one of the books I have on order is "Men who can't love", the other is "Getting to commitment", which sounds more optimistic and hopefully provides some solutions. Funny how the moving in together thing seems to be a trigger for them. We were talking about it before we broke up. In fact we were doing couples counselling and the counsellor pushed it as something we should be working towards if we were serious about taking things to the next level. Then we went on a 17 day roadtrip together, which was like testing what living together would be like, and things just fell apart completely!

 

I'm sorry to hear confronting him with his CP was the excuse for him breaking up with you. I suppose at least I've already broken up with my ex, so have nothing much to lose now...always looking for the silver lining! I suspect he knows this about himself already, but probably doesn't know there's a well developed theory and a lot of things written about commitment phobia. He has told me several times in the past he has a fear of commitment which he knows is irrational. So I suppose I'm thinking in his case it wouldn't be a complete shock or anything he doesn't know at some level. I reckon knowing there's a name for it and owning up to it more openly would be very good for him. But given he thought I was trying to blame him for everything the other week, I know I have to tread carefully.

 

Yes, my objective in drawing this to his attention is probably a bit muddled and hopeful. Partly it is altruistic because we did do a lot to help each other with stuff - he's a real self help, 12 step, therapy type and I learned a lot about myself from his example. But it's true I do hope he'd take ownership and try to address his phobia if I raised it with him...and that is partly because I'd still like a chance to be with him again in the future.

 

I'm also reading an e-book called Dream Chasers which is about recovering from commitment phobe addiction. It says that after they dump you that on average it takes 8 weeks or so before they miss you and start to make moves to come back. That's pretty close to how long it took after our first breakup. This time, if the same pattern repeats, I'll be better prepared with a full understanding of why it hasn't worked and what needs to be addressed before it could. A big improvement from my "I've changed, I've changed" approach last time!

[bluechocolate]

I think you should put the books away and ask yourself what YOU want in a partner. If commitment is important to you (which clearly it is) then perhaps this isn't the man for you at this time.

 

Hey - I'm all for a good self-help, pop-psychology book myself, but I would never think that by reading them I could change the behaviour of others.

[zep52]

My ex girlfriend is also a Commitment Phoebe, came on very strong at the beginning, wanted me to be the stepfather to her children, and all the other stuff you mention, everything great until she asked me after 2 yrs to move in with them and then bang 2 weeks later ended it, 6 weeks later she asked me to come back after pointing out my apparent short comings, which like a mug i believed, and so we got back together with me saying i would change , lasted 6 weeks and then the day before new years she tells me that we couldn't work and ended it again,

 

At the time i blamed myself as you have said you did, but at that time i was unaware of the condition commitment phobia, however since reading posts on this forum i have been made aware of it and can now see that she is a classic case, i was a loving, loyal, and downtrodden friend and lover to her and believed that it was all my fault but can now see that it was in fact her problems that brought about both splits,

 

It was interesting to read that they take about 8 weeks to start to miss us as it is just coming up to the 8th week for us, last week at 12.30 on a Saturday night my house phone rang, i didn't answer it but next morning i checked and the number had been withheld, i know it was her, she has done it before and has admitted doing so, so maybe she is at that missing me place now, anyways if she does return to my life i am going to have to sit her down and get some solid answers from her before i will this time commit, jees im getting a bit phobic myself, everyone tells me to just stay clear but i know she is as confused and bewildered by her actions as i was so will give her the chance should it arise, i love her still,

 

Good to have read this post and hope things work out for you guys, heres to us

 

Cheers

 

Dave...

[jasondotcom]

Bluechocolate, that's a good point you've made, but I have thought about this and the answer's slightly complicated. First of all the books are good for me at the moment I think. They're helping me understand what happened and to learn the lessons from this relationship, which I think is a responsible thing to do when things have gone wrong. Most importantly they're making me feel better about myself and to restore my damaged self esteem - his criticisms of me are not valid, and even he knows they're not, that's what the books are teaching me.

 

I don't expect a book to change him, but as he's very much in a self development phase at the moment I think they could help him focus on an issue I know he instinctively knows is a problem for him. The books won't solve it, but perhaps being able to properly articulate the issue to his therapist may move him in the right direction.

 

Whilst I was frustrated at his commitment issues, I've faced up to the fact that I don't think either of us really wanted the full on "like we're married" relationship we were trying to have. He clearly didn't as it stoked his fear levels and freaked him out which is why he's running now. I've had some very big issues come up and know I need to continue dealing with them, rebuild my sense of self and my direction in life rather than lose myself and my focus in a committed relationship. I think we went wrong by getting too full on. Something a bit more casual but still based on real love might have worked a lot better. I still think maybe it might one day, and could then develop into something more committed if/when we both genuinely wanted that. So paradoxically, it may in fact be the case that we do want the same thing and he might still be the man for me.

 

I know what I want in a partner/boyfriend. I want him, but I demand to be accepted for who I am and treated with respect, which is what he couldn't give me because of his engulfment/abandonment fears. So I'm not fool enough to take him back again in any form without some movement.

 

Zep, I know exactly what you mean about believing all the criticism, blaming yourself etc., and that when you find out about commitment phobia the fog lifts and it all makes sense. Interesting that your experience seems consistent with the 8 weeks theory.

 

I know that we should probably be walking away knowing what we now know about these people, but when you're in love it's not that easy. As I've said to friends, I'm unconditionally in love with this man, it's as simple and as complicated as that. What recognising the commitment phobia does is actually confirm that despite their actions they genuinely love us too, and really never intended to hurt us, they just can't help themselves sadly.

 

I think it takes a special kind of strength to walk away from true love. But it also takes strength to stand by your man even when he does this kind of crap to you because he's scared. I guess I'm both weak and strong. No wonder I'm so confused! LOL.

 

Zep it sounds like you and I are in the same boat. We must both be hopeless romantics and too understanding for our own good! I wish you well.

 

Jason

[Tonia2]

I say, devour the self-help **** - it rocks! I have been in 12 - step programmes too, and I actually went to see my addiction counsellor today. My processes are very addictive - is he an addict of any sort? I have realised having had relationships in treatment, that addictive relationship processes are not just about feeling that you need someone obsessively, but also being avoidant and unable to deal with the responsibilities of a relationship and being loved - my ex was very like that.

[Tonia2]

By the way, thanks for checking in on my other thread. Latest is that he called lots yesterday finally sending a text telling me to stop playing hard to get. When I told him I had been out with work friends he said ' what are you doing getting a life without me...' Pretty predictable stuff really. My question is, do you think we should hang in there, seeing them and hanging out - generally being ourselves and being the cool people that they fell for, or do we cut contact so that they wake up to what they have lost?

 

I know that htis sounds like I am scheming and not accepting it is over, but I know that you struggle with this too and I would be interested in your feedback. I do think that these committment phobes are a slightly different kettle of fish. By the way, that book is uncanny - half the case studies could have been written about my relationship - you will probably find the same (although they are all straight I think I'm afraid)

[morrigan]

I know what I want in a partner/boyfriend. I want him, but I demand to be accepted for who I am and treated with respect, which is what he couldn't give me because of his engulfment/abandonment fears. So I'm not fool enough to take him back again in any form without some movement.

 

I agree with Bluechocolate--you can personally benefit from the books you've read, but the only person who can make changes to your bf's behavior is himself. You can't have the version of him you want--he needs to figure out independently who he wants to be and how he wants to deal with life.

 

What recognising the commitment phobia does is actually confirm that despite their actions they genuinely love us too, and really never intended to hurt us, they just can't help themselves sadly.

 

He knows exactly how he behaves, and how you will respond to the criticisms/drawing away. He can stop it, if he makes the decision to. You want a commitment, he does not. I don't think you should have to persuade someone to be with you. You both are on differnent levels.

 

But it also takes strength to stand by your man even when he does this kind of crap to you because he's scared.

 

Regardless if he's scared, he needs to confront these issues by himself, without you having to demand or guide him to it. If he's unwilling to stop the criticism, it's going to be a futile task standing by him.

[jasondotcom]

The book I'm reading at the moment on CP addiction is quite enlightening. It talks about how you think you're in love with them, because you were in the start, but it ends up becomming a need to defeat the phobia that hooks you and drives you to an ever more desperate and delusional attachment. It's making me think, that's for sure.

 

It also says that people who break up with commitmentphobes are the most devastated of all dumpees, and will mourn and yearn for them well past the normal grieving and healing time. Its because the CP always leaves the impression of a "maybe...someday..." attitude that gives us false hope. Oh, and because they've shattered our egos and self esteeem and we think winning them back is the only way to rebuild our self respect. Hits the nail on the head for me, in fact during breakup number one with him he said "I don't want to give you false hope, but..." on a few occasions.

 

No, he's not an addict, but he goes to AlAnon obsessively because his father was an abusive alcoholic who rejected him because he wanted a daugther (and later because he was gay too), which is clearly where his CP springs from.

 

I'm a bit conflicted right now. When I spoke to him Friday he sounded a bit angry and said he wasn't sure about being friends because he felt I'd blamed him during our previous chat. We have talked about going to a film festival which starts next week together, and I said Friday I'd email him this week with the films I was interested in for him to compare to his own list. But I'm not sure whether I should still do this or leave him alone and give him space until he calms down and contacts me about it. On the other hand prospects for a friendship are at a delicate point and I fear if I withdraw now we'll drift apart. I suppose it can't hurt, and if he does react badly well there's my answer - he's not worth being friends with. Urgh, maybe I just think too much, and make this even harder for myself.

 

Wow, your guy sounds like he's doing the hot-cold thing in fast motion. The question of whether to keep casual contact or disappear so they feel our absence and miss us/realise what's missing is a hard one. It's what I'm struggling with at the moment too. No contact did the trick with me and him after our first breakup 8 months ago, and he told me later that the longer it went the harder it became for him. But it was he who insisted on the 3 months of no contact and it drove me nearly insane. I'm not convinced I'm strong enough to do it and to not sit around with my life on hold waiting and obsessing over whether he's missing me. How sad is that?!

 

He says that he has had trouble acccepting me for who I am and treating me with respect because our relationship started out on the sexual level. Sound like a crock to me, but that's his theory. So we both thought being friends would be a way forward. If he learned to relate to me as just a friend he might learn to accept and appreciate me as I am, just as he does with all his other friends (generally he's a very kind, generous, loyal friend). Taking this a step further, there would then theoretically be no reason why the relationship wouldn't be able to work. But I think going into a friendship with that motivation and goal would be a dangerous thing to do. You'd really have to be in it for it's own sake and let the future take care of itself I think. And I know in my case I am capable of quite sophisticated self deceit and rationalisations about my true motives.

 

I guess that's a very long winded way of saying I don't know which is the best way to go! Good luck with your outing (NOT date) to the movies with him. Playing it cool and not giving away too much of how you feel and your internal conflict over him is the way to go I think. I have to keep reminding myself that after what he's done to me there is no way I can make it easy for him if he ever decides he wants me back. Make him work to win you over even as a friend.

[Tonia2]

Love that stuff about self - deciet - check this out, and tell me if you think that is what I am being a victim of? I am back from our evening at the cinema, and it was great. I feel mission accomplished - at least in the short term, in that I maintained composure and dignity and didn't cry once! Every time he alluded to the relationship, I asked him not to discuss it. Ironically we were seeing a film called 5 x 2 - about a relationship breakdown!

 

He was very tactile and affectionate - kept stroking my face/ hair - but I didn't buy into it too much - didn't even really reciprocate. We got the tube together - he was massaging my neck on the escalator, but I got off at my stop without a second thought - it is only 10pm UK time and I am home alone and ready for bed.

 

I think that all things considered I did OK. I will not contact him now - it is up to him, and I will concentrate on looking after myself. I can't lie - I am encouraged by his gestures - he was much more tactile and into me - I can tell. But I truly believe that if nothing comes of this, I will be OK.

 

As for the film festival that you mentioned - I can only say from my experience, that having another focus made things so much easier - something to talk about to take the focus off us and our relationship. I seem to be a bit better off in terms of his desire to keep some kind of relationship going - but I am sure that your guy will hook into you again soon - which will give you the option to leave him be or try to nurture some kind of relationship. I just don't know if we are letting ourselves in for loads more pain... I have moments of clarity where I really do wonder whether it is worth it! I am sure if we could take ourselves out of these situations we would realise we have lots to offer to someone worthwhile, but I for one find that the more he rejects me the more attractive I find him. Shows that I have serious addictive processes going on too.

[zep52]

Yes i can relate tonia2 the more she rejected me the more i found myself wanting more, and still do, i really hope that she is missing me as much as i am missing her, and i also relate to the the comment by Jason on not wanting to keep no contact for fear of her moving on and forgetting me

 

The pain i have gone through in the last 5 months is all but disabling but the worst is behind me, although she is still in my head 24 7, but i know that if i never hear from her again then it was meant to be, even though that thought fills me with sadness now,

 

This thread has answered more questions in 2 days than nearly all the others i have read in the last 5 months, thanks everyone, it helps to know that there are others struggling with the self dought that these people we love unconditionally put in our heads, and leave us to struggle with in those quiet hours of the night when they are sleeping soundly, hope everything works out for us all

 

Dave

[jasondotcom]

Okay, well I have bitten the bullet and emailed him about the film festival stuff. I think it's the right thing to have done. Here's what I said. Do you think it was OK? Am trying not to get anxious about it, but I'll be disappointed if he tells me to bugger off and leave him alone, which he might!

 

Hi Cxxxxx,

 

I know you're busy at the moment, but I think we agreed we'd touch base on the film festival this week.

 

First of all I'd like to clean up last Thursday week ago in case this didn't come across during our phone call Friday. I really didn't mean to blame you or pay out on you, and am sorry if you feel that is what happened. For me it was about standing up for myself and clawing back some self esteem, but I acknowledge it was inappropriate and poorly executed. I have nothing but respect and compassion for you and an intention to be a caring, supportive friend. I have let go and moved on and am sadened to think my earlier impulsive behaviour has put our friendship at risk.

 

Now to the movies. There's a list of my selections below, too many to see them all, but let's see where our interests coincide. I hope that you're interested in going along together, but I understand if you need to think about it a while. Take care,

 

Jason

[jasondotcom]

Tonia, wow, it sounds like you did really well. Good for you. I don't know that I'd say anything you did rings of self deception. You've said you were encouraged by how he was with you, so clearly you still hold hopes, but if you're being honest with yourself when you say it'll be OK if nothing comes of it, then I think you're doing amazingly well. Are you being honest with yourself? Really? Or is it going to hurt when/if he goes weird and backs off again? Time will tell I suppose.

 

Not contacting him now is a good move, let him make the moves and preserve your dignity. That combined with your non-responsiveness to his affection at the movies will probably drive him nuts and make him more keen. I'm sure you know that's a very different thing from him being prepared to give you the commitment you're looking for though. So yes, perhaps it's setting yourself up for more pain. Just keep focussed on not expecting too much from him or taking renewed interest as a sign he's changed/made up his mind he wants to be with you. It's these little crumbs of interest they throw us that keep us hooked. Remember that while they can't commit to us they also can't commit to not being with us. Crazy and infuriating as that is.

 

I know you'll be OK. You understand what's going on.

 

Yes I think you're right the film festival is probably a lot better than just getting together for a chat/drink. Making conversation without talking about "us" will probably be a bit difficult for a while I expect. As you'll see above, I've emailed him about it and to try and neutralise the "damage" I may have done by "blaming" him for the split. I've tried not to apologise as such, and hope I don't sound like a desperado!

 

Dave and Tonia, here's a little insight into why we find them more attractive when they reject us:

 

"The fear of rejection: Many CP addicts feel unworthy, unlovable and undesirable. If they gain the CP's undying devotion back then certainly they will be again worthy, lovable and desirable. To win over such a strong adversary would mean the ultimate in gaining another person's acceptance and thus elevating their own self-esteem."

 

Also Tonia, I noticed someone suggested earlier on to you that maybe you were a bit commitmentphobic too. Apparently this does happen in many cases. "Often times a CP addict is actually a closet CP themselves. Hence it is safe to be attracted to the CP - they do not fear having to commit if they themselves are with someone who will not commit". Food for thought. For all of us.

 

Dave I agree this thread has been incredibly useful. I'm very new to realising commitmentphobia even exists, so chatting with you felow CP addicts has been fantastic. I was frequenting another relationship breakup board a while ago and they all seemed to be uncomfortable with a gay bloke talking about this stuff so thanks to you and Tonia particularly, but everyone else too, for making me feel welcome and safe here. If I still lived in London it'd be great to hook up with you guys for a pint and a chat (I lived there for 18 months 10 years ago)!

[jasondotcom]

I know I'm posting like a madman at the moment, but I just had a reply to my email (much quicker than expected) which has eased my anxiety over losing his friendship. I know I shouldn't be posting contents of private emails, but there's nothing too personal here, and it's easier/faster than paraphrasing them!

 

"Too funny .. _things may have changed between us but our radar hasn't._ I finalised the films last night but it didn't feel right to email it out to everyone (incl you) as it wouldn't be very personal but that meant I'd have to type something up to you but we've been busy busy and here you are.

 

Let me assure you things are cool._Whilst I was upset, last Thurs I was_thrown as I was expecting a return call from another friend_to go out at that very moment plus didn't think you'd move through all that stuff so quick.

_

Anyway a drink or dins before the first film maybe the go?"

 

A good start I think. The first film is on the 11th, so by then I should be feeling even stronger than I am right now. It eases the pain of the breakup significantly to know I've not blown the friendship. Of course I do still have this feeling that we've not reached the final chapter in the love story yet, but I'm not in any hurry for the next, whatever that is, bit to play out just yet. I mean it when I say there's no way I could take him back even if he offered. But the stubborn hope that from a genuine friendship something may grow down the track remains. He did the typical thing during one of our meetings a few weeks ago too, saying "you never know" about the friendship leading us back to something more one day. And even when I was supposedly blaming him for the split not so long ago he admitted he still loved me. So these are my future danger points.

 

Why on earth do we prefer to deal with this stuff than the temporary pain of really accepting things and letting go for good?! Actually I know why, it just doesn't make it any easier to bloody well stop it!!!

[Tonia2]

You are such a dude, Jason - I wish you were in London too! That does all sound positive, but like the situation I am in - it is also really dangerous territory - like you said to me about those crumbs being thrown out - soooo addictive. We are both sounding really convincing about being happy with friendship - but I think we are both probably lying that it isn't a minefield out there. I know that one hurtful comment/ if he were to get a new girlfriend I would be destroyed again.

 

What really helped was my therapist emphasising that I have to focus on myself and that he is almost extraneous to my circumstances. Not obsessing about what he is thinking/ feeling has been damn hard, but has helped me be so much more self-contained, and every time I avoid my voice cracking on the phone, or cornering him about how he feels is a small victory and builds my self-esteem. Your email was great and non-committal. If you can, I would now avoid talking about the relationship. These people aren't so unlike ourselves, and having been used to us sharing our most intimate thoughts about every aspect of the relationship are going to be a bit left in the cold and very curious about us if we suddenly pull back a bit. I know it sounds like games, but I think it is really self-preservation as well.

 

At the cinema yesterday I told him that I was going out with a girlfriend, her boyfriend and his friends tonight (lie - I am having two old mates round for dinner!) I could tell from his tone of voice that he was pretty peeved and definitely wanted to know more/ brought it up later. Sadly I know that he really fancies me - particularly as I have lost loads of weight, and I think that this may be clouding the issue. Towards the end of the relationship I was neglecting myself a bit, and my 'new look' makes me look much more together. I think he is finding all of this quite seductive and in a lot of ways, last night was ironically like a bit of a first date. That should put me in mind of how bad his committment phobia is really.

 

I think my problem (and this must be all the harder for you by the nature of a gay relationship) was that I had convinced myself that at 37 I just had to hang on for a bit longer (he is 37) before he would be desperate for kids. I had it in mind that if I could steer the ship through the stormy waters for the next year or so, he would 'settle' for me, because it would be the right time in his life. Dumb eh? I am glad that didn't happen. Read those books well, Jason, before the 11th... 'men who can't love' doesn't give a lot of hope, and when I first read it, it resolved me that I didn't want that **** in my life anymore. Sadly, one look at his dimply smile and I am a sucker! Keep strong mate.

[jasondotcom]

I guess I should be posting about my situation in my thread, so here we go.

 

Well so much for not talking about the relationship. I've emailed him again to confirm next Friday's dinner and movie get together and I just couldn't help myself. I added that I'd had a bit of an epiphany about the true nature of the relationship we had and that I'll discuss it with him one day. His response to that was that he'd look forward to hearing my insights. He also told me he'd heard from some friends of his who wanted him to tell me they enjoyed meeting me, thought I was lovely and sweet (which I am!) and that they hoped I was OK given the circumstances....that was very kind of them and cheered me up because I am going to miss some of the people I met through him (I'm not real good at making friends of my own for some reason).

 

So the conversation about commitment phobia is going to come sometime soon I suspect. I have absolutely nothing to base this on, but am getting the feeling that this really is the end of the road between us and he's not likely to perpetuate the typical CP cycle of missing me and wanting to come back. I guess I should be grateful for that if it is the case because I don't need to keep getting hurt like this, but it saddens me a little too. It is early days and we've not had much contact since we split so I really should just stop projecting into the future like this and relax!

 

After all what people say and think changes over time and it's not 8 weeks yet. My physicality (a big part of my appeal to him) and my gentle nature as he describes it may well draw him back once we're in regular contact again. (Listen to yourself Jason, you sound like some half crazed imbecile!) I suppose that as much as we chastise them for their on again off again approach to us, we're engaged in just as inconsistent a dance between our emotional and rational minds.

 

It's definitely an illness. Maybe it's time to go back and see my shrink...

[Tonia2]

Shrink - always a good idea in my book...

 

Well, if you can really accept the consequences of bringing this up with him, then it is up to you. Seriously though, Jason, I know that you harbour some hope for this in the future, and all I can say is that my 2 experiences of meeting up after the break-up, I came away from the second one feeling a whole lot better about myself.

 

He had no interest in discussing the relationship, and I wanted to pin it down and analyse it to the nth degree - even though I told myself I wouldn't. When I made a conscious decision not to discuss it, I came away feeling empowered and good.

 

You can always hook up with him again on another date, but you are so vulnerable at the moment that I would implore you not to discuss it on Friday. He will come away from it, whether he wants you back or not, seeing you as stronger and not just an emotional drain upon him. Surely you would rather he felt like that? What do you have to gain in the short term from raking it all up? The most he will do is acknowledge that there is some truth in it, but he won't be ready to address his issues yet.

 

I know all about seducing them with our physicality, but ultimately it is quite a hollow victory and doesn't really change things - it happened to me. Good luck mate.

[zep52]

Don't do it Jason, Tonia is right just act strong and aloof as if you don't need to be there, at least you have the chance to see him, mine has not spoke a word to me for 8 weeks, is driving me insane, i would give my left leg just to be able to sit across a table with her and let her see that i am strong without her, even though i am not,

 

Took your advice and went to the dream chasers site, a real insight, i was smiling and laughing as read it because it was as if it had been written about her, i to am having doughts as to whether she will return, and it scares me to think that she might find someone new, but i know that if i chase her she will move further away from me, (if thats possible) so i sit and wait, and i hate it, i should find someone new myself, but im not ready yet to burden some poor innocent with all the crap im lugging around with me at the moment, i just wish she would contact me,

 

Oh well all in the lap of the gods now, later my friends

 

Dave

[Tonia2]

Dave, rest assured that if she does find someone else, even though they might have that amazing honeymoon period, the exact same thing is going to happen to her next relationship.

 

You are being really strong, and I admire you for not contacting her if she is not initating the contact. Jason, I really hope you take our advice. I know you are desperate to unburden yourself of all your insights and discoveries, but do it here, to us, until you feel less for this guy. When you can look at him with some detachment, then is the time to discuss all of this with him. He will know that you don't have an agenda and that you are doing it for his sake, and he will thank you for that. Don't you think that at the moment he will just see straight through you, and see that you are trying to get him to change for your sake? He is not going to be in a receptive mood to take this stuff on, and if you burden him with emotional stuff, he is not going to be inclined to want to see you again.

 

Mine just called again on my work phone not my mobile - so that I had to answer. He was bemused that I have not been in touch, and the only reason that I am relatively calm about things is because I know that I behaved with dignity and composure when I last saw him. It seems he is intrigued by the stronger me - not the one leaking emotions everywhere. I was friendly but ever so slightly dismissive - he asked if I had emailed him and when I told him that I hadn't he accused me of playing hard to get again - strange terminology from someone who isn't your boyfriend! Whatever the outcome, I can only keep my side of the street clean. I would urge you to try to do the same next Friday.

[zep52]

You are right about the new guy should she find one, cuts me up to think she might but there is nothing i can do about it, as for being strong well i am and im not, i still want her badly but know that it has to come from her or the cycle will continue forever, should she choose to make a move at least i know that she loves me, i used to be so sure she loved me but now i wonder if she ever did and this is the only way i will ever know for sure, i think Jason is probably in bed down under, so will wait till later to see his posts, i like Jason he comes across as a real decent guy and have come to look forward to reading his posts, they have given me a whole new outlook on my situation,

 

Thanks Tonia, and Jason, it helps to know that there are kindred spirits in this world, later, i have to go back to work now, cheers

 

Dave...

[Tonia2]

Yeah, he is cool, isnt he. Emotionally honest with a lot of wisdom and insight. I think he has done lots of work on himself.

 

You are being sooo strong. How many people end up begging partners to take them back, camping out on doorsteps etc. You are on here, venting your spleen to kindered spirits and seeking help and guidance.

 

I think we have to look at their 'love' for us as a mixed blessing, and perhaps not an entirely genuine emotion. They are not alone in this. I know that I have thought I was in love, when I was just possessive, seeking external affirmation, infatuated etc. Love comes in lots of different guises, and not all particularly healthy. Certainly very few versions are selfless.

[zep52]

For some strange reason tonight has been a real nightmare for me, i have been doing really well recently, up and positive that one day that phone would ring and her voice would say hello its me, have been telling myself that it would happen for two months now fooling myself i think, but tonight in a lucid moment i suddenly felt exactly that, that i am fooling myself and that she will never talk to me again, im so tired of this roller coaster ride and i want off but how?

 

She even haunts me in my sleep, at work, at the pub, there is no escaping her memory, i also miss her daughter Jasmine who i had grown to really love, and which she reciprocated genuinely, am i fooling myself? being a CP can i dare believe that by distancing myself from her she will eventually come to me, or am i best to just accept that its really over? talking to friends and family about it they just say forget her, well meant advice i know, but not what i want to hear, have stopped talking to anybody about it now cause they look at me as if to say get real, and get a life, and so now i internalize it all resulting in days like today, the thousand yard stare, the heavy heart, the racing mind,

 

I feel closer to you guys on this thread than i do to just about anyone else at the moment, a kind word, and a genuine heartfelt outstretched hand is as good a reason to spill my feelings as any i have at my disposal at the moment, its Friday tomorrow and she will be in town at the bar i would normally frequent, so i will hide in a small pub well away and wonder what shes doing, drown my sorrows and check my mobile every few minutes for fear i have gone deaf and missed her call, how can she just throw me away, banish me to the back of her mind, like i was just someone after telling me so often i was the one, forgive my emotional ravings everyone, one to many tonight really need to get a grip, strong most of the time, terribly weak some of the time, now !!!

 

Came so close to txting her earlier, soooo close, phone in hand close, but stepped back from the abbys, what would i have tried to say in a thousand words, that she could not have condensed into a couple, what could i have asked for that would not have been seen as weak and needy, i really think she hates me now, she sees me as a weak and needy jerk that let her treat me as a doormat, any respect that was once there i fear is long gone she has lost all patience for me, i think, yep she has really done a number on me, really put dought in my mind as to who i am, and who i thought i was, was doing good , now, well im not sure anymore,

 

Yep its been a bad night, but hey tomorrow might be a good one, you know i could cope with us being finished, but its the glaringly loud silence thats getting to me, i envy you guys (Tonia & Jason) you have contact, and with it hope, the chance to affect an outcome, me, well i have got a cat, aint the same though, have a good day and lets hope the suns shining tomorrow, its been cloudy toooooo long.

 

Dave

[jasondotcom]

Guys, thank you for your kind words. You could tell I need cheering up, huh?!

 

I decided I really needed to try and get some sleep last night, and I still need a lot more I think. It's no wonder I was feeling so wobbly yesterday with so little sleep behind me. We all have to remember that it's important to look after ourselves physically at times like these...it's hard though when you just don't care.

 

I hear what you are both saying about next Friday. I know you're right. I'm going to try and heed your warnings. Part of the problem, or temptation, I am facing with it is that he and I have always had this thing about being upfront and honest with each other about feelings (well, mostly). Several times during this breakup and the last one I found myself telling him how I felt, or what I thought, despite having decided to play my cards close to my chest. He's done the same thing too - usually admitting ongoing feelings for me or that he has hope for the future - when it's obvious he'd decided beforehand not to because it would be unfair on me (I guess he understands the "throwing crumbs of hope" thing and what it does to me to some extent..."I don't want to give you more false hope, but..."). And of course even though it perpetuates the whole mixed signals dynamic, I'm always heartened to hear these things from him. Pathetic really.

 

But I am going to be strong. I am going to bide my time and wait until it feels right for that conversation, and until after those damn books arrive from Amazon. I know I still have ulterior motives and that he'll see straight through me. That may well make him reluctant to see me again, and push him further away. I'd definitely regret that. And yes Tonia, he's said a number of times that he feels tired of it all and emotionally drained - this being his engulfment paranoia and taking onboard too much stuff about me I never asked him to, and which I can deal with for myself - so I don't want to add to this feeling of his. Much better that I fake being strong and together, and you're right he has already acknowledged a lot of stuff as I see it but being ready to deal with it is another question entirely. I gotta keep my eye on the long game in the regard.

 

It seems I'll probably see him next Sunday too, at a festival. So hopefully my instinct that this will be easier when I'm seeing him and get used to just being friends is right. But I'm glad it's still a week away!