Do I tell him he's a commitment phobe? Is he cureable?

[jasondotcom]

Dave it sounds like you and I have had similar days. I hope today is going to be a better one for you. It's so easy to read so much into silence, but remember it is what it is. Silence. It doesn't mean anything. She might be feeling guilty, scared of your anger, respectful of your feelings - there are any number of reasons for her silence thus far. In the words of Michael Stipe, everybody hurts. So don't you go assuming she's as callous and unaffected as you seem to be thinking now. You don't need to do that to yourself. You're simply filling an information vacuum with your worst case scenario, then torturing yourself with it. I can understand you envy Tonia and I for having contact, but it's a double edged sword as I'm sure you can tell.

 

After our first breakup there were a few months of no contact, imposed by him. When the time came he decided he'd wait for me to initiate contact in case I wasn't ready yet. I'd decided stuff him, it's his place to do it, so we had a slight mexican standoff until I blinked. Have you thought about whether there will come a time when you might try contact just to know, to take the initiative even if it's to give you closure? That's what motivated me to blink. I'm not saying you should, I know what I did I did out of weakness, and I admire your strength. But you came close last night on an impulse, and it'd obviously be better to do it as a conscious decision to casually test the water. But I feel like I should repeat that I'm not suggesting you do, just curious.

 

I'd be so tempted to go the the bar as usual, but you're probably doing the right thing with that. Would she expect to see you there? I've been to a few places I knew he'd be because it's been our gay festival recently. Mind you there were 50,000 people at these things and I didn't see him...but I kept checking for text messages.

 

It's hard when people around you start getting concerned and tell you you have to move on isn't it. My friend and housemate can't hide his disapproval that I'll be seeing him twice next weekend. So it is a relief to find some people who understand what it's like and who indulge each other's rants, I agree. I hope things look up for you, remember ther'll be good days and bad days for a while, but only a while, then the sun will come out for good.

 

Tonia, him calling you hard to get is not strange, it is outrageous. It shows he's rather hooked on you too, in spite of himself, but he just doesn't get it does he. You're so right about keeping your own side of the street clean, and I'm going to try to follow your example on that. So did anything else come from the phone call?

[Tonia2]

Dave, sorry to hear you are in such a state. Believe me, contact is a mixed blessing, because if it turns out not to go our way, the fall is going to be longer and harder. Keep doing what you are doing – an old AA phrase – fake it to make it. It does work after a while though, and it is time to be really selfish and do stuff you like and both of you try to look after yourselves. I know what you mean about feeling close to people on this forum – empathy is a great thing, and I can identify with every single emotion you have felt – the mobile phone thing made me laugh – I have been there so many times!

 

Jason, you seem to have a good handle on things theoretically – I really do hope you can follow through. Just remember that it doesn’t have to be the last time you see/speak to him (although it could be if you back him into a corner) and try to enjoy it for what it is. I have JUST been there, remember, and because I had kept my composure and a sense of self, I was able to walk away on the tube and go home with my head held high. If I thought I had f*cked up, I would have been clinging to his leg when the train pulled in! Don’t make that mistake – I honestly believe you have a much much better chance of salvaging this if you don’t.

 

Ironically I am worried that I am playing too hard to get (which he did accuse me of yesterday) as he has initiated all contact lately. I am desperate to suggest a meeting (it is me that is busy with all the plans). Do you think this is a bad idea? I think I should probably hold off and let him come to me, but I am so panicky not having a ‘date’ in mind. By the way, go and see The Life Aquatic with Steve Zissou – it is brilliant and cheered me up no end.

[zep52]

Feeling better today, was a bit worse for wear lat night, alcohol is no good when your down, brings out the demons that lurk within, can keep em in for so long and then they have to surface to rid myself of them till next time, thank you both

 

Dave

[jasondotcom]

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[jasondotcom]

I'm glad things are better with you Dave. It was sounding a bit dark there, but alcohol, and other things, can sure take you in that direction, huh.

 

Tonia I know what you're saying about initiating some "date", but how clear are you on your motives for continued contact at the moment? Are you out for friendship or looking for a way back in? If so, what's changed, what's he going to do about his CP problem? If it's friendship, does he know this, because he's not acting like he knows it. Sorry, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, you know my own motives are a bit screwy!

 

On a completely objective level why shouldn't you initiate some get together. Any friendship or interaction between people requires effort on both sides, so if you're in it as you seem to have decided, you may as well participate. But keep an eye on those motives and expectations and look after yourself, which you seem to be doing.

 

It's the Australian Grand Prix this weekend, and I don't live far from the track, so got woken up by the noise of the cars and fighter jets doing fly overs this morning! My ex's sister (who is his best friend) is in town with her husband who's here for the race, which will be interesting. She liked me a lot and apparently always took my side when he talked to her about the little problems we had along the way. We stayed at her place over Christmas and she commented in front of us both that he should listen to how he was speaking to me and stop nit picking, that it'd poison things. She also took him aside and talked to him about how he was treating me and what she could see it was doing to me. So I'd love to be a fly on the wall when they inevitably chat about the breakup. Is that bad?

 

Yes Tonia, I have a theoretical handle on things, but will that be enough? I think it will because I know I don't want to get back together with him anytime soon anyway. Something needs to change first. So there's no option but to be genuine about the friendship and patient about finding out whether something more is meant to be or not. Really that is all I want, I just drift into sentimentality and mild panic now and then!

[Tonia2]

Cool - you are managing to convince me about your motives, so I am sure you will manage to convince him. Do you think his sister will try to contact you? She sounds really nice and pretty sorted.

 

I know about the date thing, and of course my motives aren't genuine. I am keeping my plans and going out of town today though, even though he is coming round to my house, so that is quite a concession for me - normally I would be doing everything to blow out my other plans and be here to meddle and try to 'fix' our relationship.

 

Have a great weekend, and we will catch up tomorrow or something. Stay strong and look after yourselves - you sound like you are both doing it...

[mental_traveller]

Sometimes "commitment phobia" is just normal behaviour. Everyone should fear committing to a less than ideal relationship. Look at all the infidelity and divorce threads. The only time commitment phobia is a genuine criticism is when someone has an ideal relationship on the cards, and is *still* afraid of committing to it. Now, I challenge any of you to point me to a thread where someone says "My SO says we have the perfect relationship and is head over heels in love with me, but still doesn't want to commit". Sorry, but the majority of "commitment phobia" cases are definitely NOT of this type. The usual reason people fear commitment is because you are not right for them. If you sense commitment phobia in your partner, look around for problems in your relationship. Do you argue a lot? Have you lost the initial spark of passion? Do you have fundamental conflicts on core issues? If so, then that's the reason for your partner's commitment "phobia". They are just subconsciously recognising a core conflict or problem in the relationship, and quite rightly backing away because they sense it has no long-term future.

 

I accept there might be a small minority of people who will still fear getting deeply involved with their perfect partner, and allow that to interfere with the relationship - then the term is a valid one. But let's not misuse the term by applying it to anyone who simply recognises a deep-seated problem in their relationship. IMO, "Commitment phobia" is mostly a perjorative stereotype phrase used to conveniently cover up the fact that something about you bothers your partner. How much easier to label them emotionally dysfunctional than to look in the mirror and recognise your own flaws which are causing the problem.

[zep52]

Yes I see your point, but a common theme i have picked up from this and other threads is that these people who find it hard to commit have usualy, although not always, been married, my ex was married for 20 yrs and when she ended it she rid herself of all the resentment that had built up, but she also took on so much baggage from the split that she has trouble now seeing any relationship as commitment worthy, maybe its fear, maybe she just wants to live the free life, but to all intense and purposes she has put up a wall to closeness,

 

We didn't have the perfect relationship everyone aspires to, but who does, we were happy together, everyone that knew us as a couple said we were a good match, we complimented each other, we understood each other, we were friends, but as time went by and she started to sense that this was indeed getting serious so she began to edge away, its not that she doesn't want me, she loves me, its that she starts to feel the walls closing in on her, she remembers the feelings she had when in her marriage, and they overwhelm her,

 

I agree that the CP label in some cases is undeserved but in a lot of cases it is a real problem that these people carry around without knowing why they push people they love away, i can bet that she is feeling very confused and worried as to our situation, and that one day she will contact me with a need for me to be there for her, and when she does i will be, they need to know that the people they love are always there and by pushing us away they are in effect testing that, the real problem lies with myself and people like Tonia and Jason, the people who they need, are we to just wait for that call, or do we think of ourselves and turn our backs on them, and in so doing validate their very worst fears and panic them into returning as they surely will, its a lose lose scenario, I know the quickest way for me to rid myself of her memory would be to move on and find someone else, but i cant bring myself to do that to her, i love her, really love her, and ironically it is that fact that causes her torture, and indeed my own,

 

There is never a 100% perfect partner for any of us, but when you meet the one that fills all the boxes and reciprocates your giving of love then you have to fight for it, even more so when they suddenly for reasons that they cant explain pull away, by them knowing that we are still there when and if they return, we are giving ourselves in the truest form, and it is this act of giving they most crave even if they cant handle it when they get it, so yeah fair comment, but believe me that CP for whatever reason is very real, and messes people up, both the one with it, and the one trying to deal with a partner who has it...

 

Dave

[mental_traveller]

Yeah, I can see what you're saying. Ultimately no relationship is perfectly "safe", you have to take a risk at some point. There is always a slight element of anxiety when you enter a situation where someone else's actions can make you massively unhappy, and it is important to reassure the other person and prove to them that you are trustworthy.

 

Ultimately I think if you have a good thing on both sides, and this is the only stumbling block, then it can be worked out. But you need to meet half-way and recognise that the CP person feels that way for legitimate reasons. If you're ultimately honest, then they will trust you eventually, but you need to build up a record of honest actions and behaviour - you can't demonstrate honesty and trustworthiness by making promises, only by keeping them.

[jasondotcom]

That is an interesting and valid point you make mental traveller. Commitment phobia would make a very handy cop out explanation for why you got dumped if you didn't want to face up to the real reasons. Those of us who think we have commitment phobic partners/ex's probably spend a lot of time wondering if that's what we're doing. But I think the point for those of us on this thread is that we believe the love in our relationships was genuine and real, that there were no insurmoutable problems, no fundamental conflicts. In short, no reason why it shouldn't have worked - except the fear and the behaviour, including running, that it causes.

 

I like what Dave said. My ex was never married, but he's told me quite openly and honestly that he has this issue with fear when he gets "too close" to someone. It's driven by twin fears of engulfment and abandonment which are caused by issues with his family of origin, issues I understand and have much compassion for. I know he has legitimate reasons for feeling the way he does. But what am I supposed to do with this information? Accept that I've been told it's over and move on? It's not easy when you're told that you're everything they ever wanted, which is precisely what scares them.

 

I know my ex felt engulfed and like he'd "lost himself" by the end, but he did that to himself. I know there was also an element of dumping me before I had the chance to abandon or reject him. This was a trust issue, even though I gave him every reason to trust me and he undermined my trust in him with the mixed signals he sent out while strugging with his fears. You get a real sense with these people we're calling CPs that they're hurting themselves as much as they're hurting you. I think Dave's right that in a way pushing us away is like testing us. Will we always be there, can we really be trusted. It's about them feeling safe enough to surrender I think.

 

Our ongoing desire to stand by them and help them with this stuff is probably codependent behaviour on our part. It makes the line between wanting to show them you are still there for them, and wanting to "fix" them, a hard one to walk. I think it is about giving ourselves in out truest form, giving unconditional love and acceptance. Because that's what our exs/partners are struggling to find the courage to accept.

[zep52]

Last night was the worst night off my life, made a complete idiot off my self in the pub, it is over know whether i like it or not, can not believe it happened, she will never ever forgive me for last night, on a scale of 1 to 10 i blew it by a factor of 50, im a brain dead idiot, will talk later going to bed, feel bad!!!!!!!!

[jasondotcom]

Tonia, I hope your weekend away was good. No I don't expect his sister to contact me. I think that'd be crossing the line into interfering in her book...and she'll always accept and respect his position on things at the end of the day in the name of loyalty to her brother. I'm sure she'd tell him he's stuffed up if that's what she thinks though.

 

I think my motives are settling down a little bit now. I'm sure it'll be even easier to be genuine about this friendship once it actually begins. I think it's this transition period I dislike, I know that if there's a chance we'll get back together that it's going to be a long road, and I am fine with that.

 

Dave, I'm sorry to hear last night was not a good one. It may not seem so bad after a good night's sleep...

[zep52]

Well what can i say, messed up big with her last night, went to the pub i normally go to, the one i stayed away from on Friday, i walk in with a friend and all the way to the bar was looking to see if she was in there, by the time i got to the bar was quite sure she wasn't so loosened up a bit, i bought a drink turned around and there she was right in front of me, she looked at me and i looked at her and for a second or so we held each others gaze, she then just turned away, my heart sank and i began to drink my drink faster with the intent of leaving, having not laid eyes on her for 5 weeks she looked stunning and i knew that i couldn't handle the situation so was finishing my drink when my friend said that i shouldn't leave because i had to get used to seeing her, so i stayed,

 

An hour or so later i decided to test the water and walked over to her, she looked at me and imeadiately headed for the ladies toilet so i followed, i stood outside for a minute or two and then thought sod it and marched in after her, she was just inside so i said all i want is to talk to you, but she said go away dave and walked out, should have gone away, but yep you guessed it i didn't, i followed her out into the pub and said im going nowhere until you talk to me, this went on for about ten minutes and then she went onto the dance floor with her friend, so yep i follow, her friend then gets a bouncer and tells him that i am annoying her friend (Sandra), so now i have a large suited gentleman telling me to back off or im out, i told him she was my ex and that i just wanted to talk and that if there was any sign of hostility i would leave and he said ok and took me at my word,

 

All she did say to me other than i was a "waste of space" was that she had enough crap going on in her life at the moment and that she could not deal with me acting like this, i wanted to know what she meant and she almost opened up like she wanted to tell me, like she wanted to be able to tell me her problems like she used to, but she pulled back at the last second and put up the barriers, i knew by now that what had just happened was not good for either of us and so i retreated to the bar but as i passed her i whispered in her ear " its not over, i will be around" and then i went to the bar, she then just carried on with her evening like nothing had happened, drinking laughing dancing, i know she was as upset as i was but she is a master when it comes to putting a face on, something i am not,

 

So i later went to my friends house and drank for England and ended up in the local park at 3 in the morning feeling pretty low to say the least, at 6 i went round my sisters and told her what had happened, to see if it was as bad as it felt to me, she said that i had gone there knowing that if Sandra was there i was going to try and initiate something, and that by allowing me to run with the ball Sandra had also wanted something to happen, the worst that really happened was that i made a fool of myself in public, but that doesn't worry me, as Tonia put it i was "clinging to her leg on the tube station" She said that Sandra could have stopped me at anytime by talking to me, or by saying not here Dave i will phone you later or something, and i can see her point, but after five weeks of being strong im right back where i started and im pretty sure now that she will never talk to me again, i hesitate to say that she hates me because when we are with each other, and i felt it last night as did she did there is a bond between us, an electricity that i can feel, its not imagined and i know she feels it as well , when i look into her eyes i see the real Sandra, past all the posturing and attitude and i can feel her hurt and i can sense her fears, its in her eyes and i know its the same for her, there is something tangible there, a connection, so why is she running from it ???????

 

So here i am today, been up all night worrying, and now feel very bad about it all, have made things much worse, when this time yesterday was feeling quite up, one things for sure though she will be thinking about me today, not good thoughts, but thoughts none the less, must leave her alone now though and stay away from her, knew that last night really but had to make something happen between us just to keep the ball bouncing, was scared that she was forgetting me but was obvious last night that she wasn't, but seems like there is no way forward from this, im straying in to stalker territory now and that is very bad, i cant keep annoying her, i did text her last night to appologise, and said that i hadn't meant for it to go like that, she has not replied, so back to no contact, and a future without her in it, i am truly addicted to her, i am normally a rational man, laid back, but last night i was irrational and uptight, god help me.....

[zep52]

One strange thing, when i walked in to the toilet after her she had her back to me but i could see her face in the mirror, when she saw it was me a smile flashed across her face, i read it as her being pleased that i was pusuing, but it could just be that it was that i was in the ladies toilet ?????

 

Once before after a row she stormed out of my flat and began walking home, i chased her in the car and parked along the route and as she walked around the corner and saw me that same smile was on her face, it confirms her need for me to chase after her, it reasures her to know that i will always come back, or at least used to, but it was the same smile last night, man she looked good last night,

[jasondotcom]

Oh Dave...I'm so sorry to hear about this and how upset you are. But try to keep some perspective...what you did was not that bad. OK you lost control a bit, but you were taken by surprise and did the best you could. I can understand your concern about wandering into stalker territory, but I don't think that's what you did last night and you'll be careful not to let that happen. If you're right that there is some bond and electricity between you, then she will understand how tough this has been for you. She might not show it, but I'm sure in her heart she'd forgive you. If there's still something there I don't think what you did last night is the thing that's going to kill it.

 

I can't tell you how many times I've done stuff I regretted and thought constituted "blowing it". An inappropriately timed, desperate sounding phone call, meetings where I've strayed into excessive anger or begging. And my ex's reactions to those things have often made me feel even more like I'd done something terrible, unforgivable. But in time he's forgiven because he understands how difficult this process is and that the occasional lapse of judgement comes with the territory. I don't know your ex obviously, so can't say she'll be cool and overlook last night in time. But I don't think you should beat yourself up too much. You're human, you lost control briefly, you didn't do anything that bad, and if she doesn't see that in time it says more about her than it does about you.

 

I'm sorry to hear she was doing the ice maiden routine, that's hard isn't it. My ex also has a tendency to pull down the shutters, turn off the tap, become very self focussed (as I think Sandra's doing in her "I've enough going on in my life" comment)...I think it's made worse because of his meditteranean background. It's fair enough in the sense that the relationship is over (hello...) and they're moving on. Sometimes I think it's a protective mechanism. If we're right and they still love us and have given in to fear, then they're struggling with something we're not. A nagging doubt they've done the wrong thing. But they've made their decision and have to stick with it/live with it, turn their backs, block any feelings for us and look forwards. Maybe this is the point at which we have to admit we've lost them - whether they're commitment phobic, or we're just delusional makes little difference.

 

The problem though, as you experienced last night, is that even though they present the cold face to us, you can sense that there's something else lurking below the surface. Occasionally you'll see flashes of it pass across their face...little signs of cracks in the facade. But I suppose we can really only work with what's presented to us. If they choose to keep underlying feelings for us off the table, we have to respect that at the end of the day and look after ourselves like they're doing. (This is easy for me to say...pity I'm not doing it!)

 

Why are they running indeed. I think we do kind of understand why, but that doesn't lessen the urge to scream out "why are you doing this" at them. At least they're providing us with lots of opportunities to learn about ourselves. Maybe in time that's what we'll take from this experience and draw some strength and comfort from. I hope so.