The 11th Hour and D-Day is coming: Admissions of Fear

[2sunny]

Not to mention that if you invested time and energy into your wife the way you do with your OW - the M would certainly become better.

[denise_xo]

Hi Denise,

 

That's very likely but how does one trust oneself? I think i just take high risks and next thing you know i'm doing something i shouldn't.

 

with mow, i figured i could back out at any time. i had the power and ability. i kept waiting and enjoying the moments assuming i could cancel my subscription. Little did i know that the moments would start to cement and cloud our hearts. Next thing you know, its going too fast and there's no way to jump off.

 

I feel a large amount of guilt over my past relationships. i've never been genuinely open and given all of myself to someone so maybe that's the problem?

 

I think you've answered your own question. For me personally, the way to trusting myself is honesty. If I lie (however 'white' that lie may be), I erode my trust in myself. I also erode my trust in myself if I put on a mask that isn't real, where I pretend to be something I'm not. It was revelation for me when I started working systematically on this, because those masks are so common in society today that it's easy to just take them for granted, as a natural part of life. But they don't have to be, and I find them damaging.

 

Some of the rules I try to follow are (copied from a text someone else have written, hence the slightly odd wording):

-Make no false claims.

-Speak not against others in their absence.

-Do nothing which will make your conscience feel guilty.

-Prove trustworthy in all your dealings.

-Break not your word of honor whatever may befall.

 

On the face of it, it's easy to look at this list and say "sure, I do that". But then, if you start examining all the little things you say and do in life, you'll probably find that there are lots of grey areas where white lies, subversions and omissions creep in. I can only really relate intimately (emotionally or physically) to people when those lies, subversions and omissions don't form a part of our relationship.

[denise_xo]

As for mow, i am in love with her but she is not perfect. She represents risk..risk of age gap (15 plus years), risk of getting hurt in discussions and not talking to me all night......risk of not being in any past LTR except with her H..which i've had LTR's and know the risks, pain and joys of them..as well as mow never having lived a true adult single life which I have.

 

Maybe the greatest risk here is that, given your history, you would be likely to cheat on her as well?

[Owl]

Maybe the greatest risk here is that, given your history, you would be likely to cheat on her as well?

 

I think the biggest risk here has already happened.

 

He's going to waffle on into eternity.

[beach]

Update?

 

Please provide an update without asking more questions that you know the answers to.

[Redheaded Mistress]

Should spouses stay in a relationship because of the kids?

 

The only people who can really answer that are the people in the relationship and the parents of the kids. There are times where staying together does more damage than not, there are times where being together would be better. It just all depends and there's no 100% right answer on either side.

 

Do kids ever really heal?

 

As long as the parents are committed to helping them heal, yes.

 

Do all A's end up wanting to turn into full blown relationships?

 

I can't answer that. I've only had the one affair, and our affair resulted in us leaving our partners for each other. So our affair did.

 

What happens to those A's that turn into relationships then crash and burn?

 

Same thing that happens in all failed relationships. All relationships are about taking chances, so you just have to ask yourself if what you're giving up is worth the chance of what you're giving it up for not working out. Like, when I left my husband, I said to myself that the possibility of my relationship with my AP not working out and me being alone with a divorce and a bad breakup was the worst outcome, but still a better result than being in my marriage.

 

Where do people go for help and how do they go back to their families?

 

Where do they go for help in ending affairs? Counseling. They change emails, phone numbers, maybe even move.

 

What are the odds of an A actually surviving the long haul?

 

Depends on the people in the affair, their commitment to each other, and honestly, how you can handle the ex. It takes a lot of work to turn an affair into a relationship and then a marriage. It's hard, really hard.

 

Am I wrong for not wanting to leave my w and kids for mow knowing that's what i want to do but my anxiety won't let me due to the impact on my kids?

 

If you don't want to leave, you need to tell her now. Give her all the information so that she can make an informed decision on what she wants to do with her life. Maybe she'll decide she still wants to leave her husband. Maybe not. But you need to maybe entertain the idea she's going to out you to your wife, either to hurt you or to get her to dump you and pick up on the relationship she feels is coming. You've got to be a bad guy to somebody here, either the OW or your wife. Time to pick a team.

[goodyblue]

Conflicted, I understand you are here to vent and graspyour feelings and that is okay. Most of the people counseling you are bs's.

 

Keep talking here, take what helps and ignore the rest. Only you know your life and your heart. Think about where you will be happiest and do what you feel is best for you. These other posters are frustrated that you are not taking their advice but they have no vested interest in the outcome. Don't do anything just cuz posters say so. I hope you find peace.

[Redheaded Mistress]

^ Wise words there.

[conflictedlove]

Conflicted, I understand you are here to vent and graspyour feelings and that is okay. Most of the people counseling you are bs's.

 

Keep talking here, take what helps and ignore the rest. Only you know your life and your heart. Think about where you will be happiest and do what you feel is best for you. These other posters are frustrated that you are not taking their advice but they have no vested interest in the outcome. Don't do anything just cuz posters say so. I hope you find peace.

 

Hi Goodyblue,

 

Thank you for your encouragement and kind words. I take solace in them.

 

I know we have BS here and one on side, I can understand their pain and frustration. I respect everyone's view and take into consideration what most if not all have shared.

 

I struggle most with what I don't know....I don't know if I'm better off with my w for the kids? I don't know if i'm better of with mow and the fallout with our spouses? I don't know what would become of my W? I don't know if mow and i would regret leaving our spouses if things don't work out? So many uncertain next steps.

 

I do have an update I will share here in a few.

 

Thank you

[conflictedlove]

Should spouses stay in a relationship because of the kids?

 

The only people who can really answer that are the people in the relationship and the parents of the kids. There are times where staying together does more damage than not, there are times where being together would be better. It just all depends and there's no 100% right answer on either side.

 

Do kids ever really heal?

 

As long as the parents are committed to helping them heal, yes.

 

Do all A's end up wanting to turn into full blown relationships?

 

I can't answer that. I've only had the one affair, and our affair resulted in us leaving our partners for each other. So our affair did.

 

What happens to those A's that turn into relationships then crash and burn?

 

Same thing that happens in all failed relationships. All relationships are about taking chances, so you just have to ask yourself if what you're giving up is worth the chance of what you're giving it up for not working out. Like, when I left my husband, I said to myself that the possibility of my relationship with my AP not working out and me being alone with a divorce and a bad breakup was the worst outcome, but still a better result than being in my marriage.

 

Where do people go for help and how do they go back to their families?

 

Where do they go for help in ending affairs? Counseling. They change emails, phone numbers, maybe even move.

 

What are the odds of an A actually surviving the long haul?

 

Depends on the people in the affair, their commitment to each other, and honestly, how you can handle the ex. It takes a lot of work to turn an affair into a relationship and then a marriage. It's hard, really hard.

 

Am I wrong for not wanting to leave my w and kids for mow knowing that's what i want to do but my anxiety won't let me due to the impact on my kids?

 

If you don't want to leave, you need to tell her now. Give her all the information so that she can make an informed decision on what she wants to do with her life. Maybe she'll decide she still wants to leave her husband. Maybe not. But you need to maybe entertain the idea she's going to out you to your wife, either to hurt you or to get her to dump you and pick up on the relationship she feels is coming. You've got to be a bad guy to somebody here, either the OW or your wife. Time to pick a team.

 

Hi Red,

 

Thank you and very well said! All of it.

 

Are you now married to your AP? How is that working out? Did you have kids with your ex and how is the co-parenting and relationship going?

 

If you had to do it over again knowing what you know now, would you?

 

The decision is very difficult for me. I am leaning towards helping my mow gain employment elsewhere and letting that be the distraction and time away we both need. I believe she would give her H the news if i was ready to do the same with my w but i'm not. I can't imagine how my w and kids would take it let alone my w has been so dependent on me for 14+ years to make so many decisions. It would be like letting a lamb out into the woods. Just bad events to unfold.

 

I know mow loves me and vice versa. i know she would be a wonderful step mother. I just like less of a man walking away from my w. if the A could just stay put, i can probably handle it but that's not going to happen. its grown sea legs and now lives, taking a lot of my time each day.

[conflictedlove]

Update?

 

Please provide an update.

 

Hi Beach and all LS friends.

 

I spent some private time locked away in a private room with mow a few days ago. We are magnetic and love to be tucked away with each other, being physically expressive and talking about each other. I believe the future faking is not faking anymore. mow is taking it literally and seriously. I cna't help b ut wonder how did we get here? I am mow's first AP and she's only been married 1x, prior to that being a high school student. Dated as a high school teen but nothing serious until she got married. I say this since mow wants more of our future and wants us to be specific and plan our departure from our spouses. I only want her to gain employment elsewhere so we can be done with this A.

 

I am still baffled by the fact mow and i have gone the last 1.8 yrs of a relationship and here we are now talking about our next steps to leave our spouses and become h and w.

 

Planning on helping mow gain another job so she can get distracted by her new job and ultemately she will forget about me and forward. The thought breaks my heart but she does deserve that from me.

[whatatangledweb]

No offense but that really isn't an update. That is exactly what you were planning when you first wrote a month ago. Why can't you just tell MOW the truth? This is not going to end the way you think it is. It is cruel of you to continue to future fake with her. If you want her, tell your wife. If you want your wife , tell the MOW. You can no longer have both as the MOW is not going to let that happen nor is she just going to disappear.

[Allumere]

You sir are a coward.

[herself]

No offense but that really isn't an update. That is exactly what you were planning when you first wrote a month ago. Why can't you just tell MOW the truth? This is not going to end the way you think it is. It is cruel of you to continue to future fake with her. If you want her, tell your wife. If you want your wife , tell the MOW. You can no longer have both as the MOW is not going to let that happen nor is she just going to disappear.

 

Im so sad for the ow.

You have no idea how her heart will be so shredded.

I just wish you can stop with her now and get the hurt over with so she can begin healing now, not when your ready.

Its so hard to understand how you can be so hurtful to continue using her.

It gives me insight into my xaps thinking though...he must have known he was goung to end it but kept prolonging things until it was good for him. At least your honest...with us anyways.

[Redheaded Mistress]

Hi Red,

 

Thank you and very well said! All of it.

 

 

Are you now married to your AP? How is that working out? Did you have kids with your ex and how is the co-parenting and relationship going?

 

I am now married to my former AP and we are very happy, so any questions you have, I'll be more than happy to answer. I'm an incredibly honest person, so I'll tell you the good, bad, and ugly.

 

Some things to think about:

 

1. He was my first, last, and only affair.

2. He was the first, last, and only time I considered having an affair before.

3. The above applied to him as well.

4. While it started as chemistry, passion, and close friendship, it didn't evolve into what it is now overnight.

5. It was a hard transition for both of us.

 

Neither one of us were the type to have the wandering eye before, never thought we'd have an affair, and we just sort of did. After the chemistry wore off and we really evaluated that this is what we wanted, we both left our spouses. My transition out of my marriage was relatively easy (no kids, I asked for nothing in the divorce, and overall just wanted out quickly and painlessly as possible), his transition was not.

 

I think what makes us successful is that we really, really work at the things that led us to have an affair in the first place, because we communicate so openly about everything, and because we make a concerted effort to really communicate everything. I'm not sure if it's because my first marriage failed and this one isn't, or because of how we started, but I think we've both invested way more time, effort, and energy to get this one to work... Just because we want it to work so badly. As a result, we have a great, happy marriage.

 

That all being said, we do have issues sometimes. His ex doesn't know boundaries and does try to go past them. This triggers issues of insecurity, jealousy, and anger which I have a tendency to misplace on my husband. These issues were made worse by the totally unrelated fact that I got ill a few years ago and as a result developed what has been diagnosed as bipolar II depression... And these are issues we never had before that happened. So there are times I don't understand why he doesn't act more firmly with her when she crosses lines... He is more of a "ignore her and she'll stop" (and he's right, when she doesn't have an audience, she doesn't do it), whereas I'm more of a "go, lay down the law, let it not happen again, let her know where she stands." She also acts in such a way that she knows is disruptive and I fall for it every time, whereas he's really good at just ignoring it or not playing to it.

 

He and I both know and acknowledge that this issue is 100% related to the combination of my issues along with the fact that his transition was hard and he left her, went back, left her, went back multiple times. I never really got over that and all of my trust issues are related to a fear that is occasionally triggered by a fear that he'd leave again, despite the fact I know it's totally irrational in my logical mind. You've never met a more loyal, loving, devoted, caring, attentive husband as my husband. He works his butt off to make sure I don't have a reason to doubt him, and honestly, as long as my illness isn't messing with me, I don't.

 

I should also throw out there that my divorce literally meant that my ex husband was gone forever. No kids, I waived my rights to joint property and assets... I have no reason to see him and he's not in our lives at all. I think if I had to see my ex to the same level he sees his (she works with him, they share kids, she lives less than half a mile away), it would be another aspect that would complicate things. Ruin our marriage? No, but I think he'd struggle with it in ways that I sometimes struggle with his post-divorce relationship with his ex.

 

Now, I didn't have kids, but he has two with his ex. The co-parenting relationship was rocky for a few years, not going to lie. After some time, a lot of fights between the three of us, and finally just going to court to make it irrefutably official, things have settled down. Now I'm another Mom, she'll publicly admit that I'm another Mom, we exchange birthday, mother's day, Christmas gifts and meet for playdates with the kids. We're not friends because, in the end, I don't like her, and I don't think she likes me. But we have a working relationship that is maybe one click above civil. I still have to maintain some boundaries (a few weeks ago she randomly asked if we wanted a playdate and I said sure, but it became apparent she actually wanted to meet to take advantage of some consulting work I do for free, and get a free meal). I'd say it took maybe about a year after the affair started before "she can't be around them at all" stopped, maybe 6 months after that overnights started.

 

My husband, I think he'd prefer I didn't see her at all because she has a tendency to turn it around into something where she works us against each other. For example, she asked us to take the kids one weekend so she could do something, my husband said no because we had plans. She said "Well I talked to your wife, she said you guys were just going to be at home all weekend" when I actually answered her question of "are you going to see X movie this weekend" with "No, I don't think we're planning to. We're having a quiet weekend."

 

If you had to do it over again knowing what you know now, would you?

 

Knowing what I know now? Yes. Honestly, making that decision now, knowing how it all will settle out and the end result, it's not hard. I have the advantage of hindsight and the knowledge it'll work out. It was much, much, much harder to answer that question in the middle of it all, when I didn't know what would happen. When life was tears, uncertainty, instability, fear of rejection, fear of wasting my time or my life, etc etc. There were plenty of times when I was in the middle of it all, when things were bad and looking worse, I was asking myself "why am I doing this? This isn't worth it." In the end, what made me think about sticking it through was the reflection where I'd rather live with the worst possible and realistic result of this situation than the best possible result of the situation I was in. Meaning, the worst day of managing our affair and that relationship was still better than a forever of only the best days of my current marriage. And his decision went along those same lines as well with his marriage.

 

I think the thing I would change, though, wouldn't be for me, it'd be for him, and it's advice I'll give you too. Once you make your decision to either stay or go, make it and be done. Stick with it. Be it stay with your spouse and resume the affair, stay with your spouse and end the affair, leave your spouse and live with the OW, leave the marriage and end the affair... Whatever it is. Just make it, stick with it, and let everybody know where they stand. The more you flip back and forth by coming and going, the more you damage your chance of going back to the marriage, the more obstacles and things to work through in your post-affair relationship, the more eroding of trust, the more instability, the more confusion for the kids. When my husband and I talk about it now, he says he'd just stuck with his decision to go the first time and not flipped back and forth so many times. He realizes it did damage that we still deal with to this day (and consequentially, if he'd stayed in his marriage it would have been damage he would have to still deal with there) and I think despite how happy we are, it is a lingering guilt he has when I have insecurity issues.

 

The kids now are happy, healthy, and totally adjusted to the situation. The transition was hard, again, the flip flopping made it difficult on one of them (one was a newborn when he left the first time so the impact there wasn't as great and the post-divorce transition was much easier, the other was an older toddler and it was more difficult at first), but after the final decision was made and we all, him and I as well as his mother, could actively work to build that stable new post-divorce life, the rough part passed and the new reality set in. We still make adjustments here and there... The oldest now tries to play the households against each other ("well Mom said this..." "Well dad lets me do that...") and the youngest uses a similar tactic, only with crying, when things don't go their way (when we make dinner the youngest doesn't like, there are tears and "I miss my mom" but when the youngest gets in trouble with mom, there are tears and "I miss my dad"). Despite our disagreements and her lack of boundaries, we can still come together and share what's happening and apply consistent standards between houses.

 

The decision is very difficult for me. I am leaning towards helping my mow gain employment elsewhere and letting that be the distraction and time away we both need. I believe she would give her H the news if i was ready to do the same with my w but i'm not. I can't imagine how my w and kids would take it let alone my w has been so dependent on me for 14+ years to make so many decisions. It would be like letting a lamb out into the woods. Just bad events to unfold.

 

Only you can make the decision that works best for you. I tend to think that unless the job you get MOW is some amazing job, she'd see that for the distraction it was, or more likely, see you being attentive to getting that job as a passive sign you accept and are willing to invest in a post-divorce life with her. Looking from the outside, if the relationship was continuing and my AP had started to find me a new job elsewhere, I'd have taken that to mean he wants me to be the first stabilizer in our new life and I'd have the expectation that he was following me.

 

As far as what your wife can and can't do post divorce, I can't answer that only to say that you shouldn't sell her short. This isn't meant to push you to stay or go one way or the other and I don't want to downplay the reality that it'll be a tough transition, but you may be surprised in that she's stronger at that new reality than you give her credit for. I think maybe complacency and routine, looking with her with the same neutral eyes you've used for the last 14 years or however long may make you think she's nothing but dependent. Perhaps she'd surprise you and not be. My husband thought his ex wouldn't make it on her own with the kids and that was a large reason he stayed as long as he did, and her playing to that was a big reason he bounced back and forth a few times. In the end though, once the chips were down and he said "this is it, there's no going back" and she took him seriously, she moved on. Now, 5 years down the road, she works, she runs her household, she's fine independently and the only bad choices she makes with regards to that is based off of laziness and bad money management (paying for a vacation as opposed to the power bill for example), not that she's incapable.

 

I only point it out because maybe realizing your wife is stronger than you maybe take for granted will make you think that either A. you can get up and leave and after time, effort, and support (from you too) she'll be fine, or B. she's not the weak, incapable dependent you thought and maybe more of a partner than you realized, making it easier to decide to stay.

 

I know mow loves me and vice versa. i know she would be a wonderful step mother. I just like less of a man walking away from my w. if the A could just stay put, i can probably handle it but that's not going to happen. its grown sea legs and now lives, taking a lot of my time each day.

 

I don't think a failed marriage or an affair for that matter make you less of a man. More than half of marriages end, a lot of times it is because of an affair. Even falling in love with somebody else, that's not something you can help. It just happens. It doesn't make you less of a man, in fact, it's a just a facet of what makes us humans. The fact that you're even thinking about it as carefully as you are and not acting on impulse shows this isn't a man with the attitude of a child or a boy just acting out... You're a man, weighing out want vs. obligation, need vs want, and trying to do your best to do what's best for everybody else. So when I see this, staying, going, or maintaining the status quo, I don't see this as a "I'm not a man" issue. I know others disagree, and that is what is is, but from where I sit, I see a man making a careful, grownup decision after weighing what he wants second only to what's best for the people he loves. I'm sure at some point in all of this, either OW or your wife will accuse you of not being a real man, and I know that will hurt and you'll doubt yourself. But being a man doesn't mean nobody gets hurt in the pursuit of doing what's best (again, stay, go, or remain the same, whatever it is).

 

I think one thing that you have to be aware of, which may make people question your manhood, is indecisiveness. Being so fixated on hurting nobody that you hurt everybody, including yourself. It's better to tell everybody what's going on, why, and stick to it than to throw everybody little scraps in the hopes they'll think you're a good guy and the problem goes away. I'm personally not saying that does or doesn't make you a man, again, because even men make mistakes in trying to do what's right. But I think that little bit of a little for everybody to save face, stay OK with everybody, and not rock the boat... It can give the impression of a choice by a child who doesn't want to get in trouble. Having been there, done that, I know differently, but from the outside looking in, they may not get it.

 

If you need anything, let me know. I'll listen, answer questions, or whatever you need.

[conflictedlove]

Im so sad for the ow.

You have no idea how her heart will be so shredded.

I just wish you can stop with her now and get the hurt over with so she can begin healing now, not when your ready.

Its so hard to understand how you can be so hurtful to continue using her.

It gives me insight into my xaps thinking though...he must have known he was goung to end it but kept prolonging things until it was good for him. At least your honest...with us anyways.

 

hi Herself,

 

Thank you for your reply.

 

I can't speak to your xap but I will say this....i am torn between mow and my w. i'm being honest with you and i'm sure your xap was conflicted as well.

 

just as you were, my mow is up against my w and the years of marriage, time together, stability and kids. That's hard to overcome when you're a mow or mom. I realize this.

 

I will also be honest and tell you the conflict is substantial in me. When mow and I started, there were several flaws I saw that I believed would never work. As time as passed for the last 18+ months, those flaws, some i can't remember, are not visible anymore. That's what the veil of an A causes I believe...an inability to see past one's own hand in front of their face due to the euphoria and emotional fog.

 

Perhaps like your mom, i can see how the kids and time with w play a part in not wanting to leave. It feels secure and low risk. Being with an AP is high risk and its thrilling to push the boundaries of an A. The problem that occurs is that the A at its birth starts to grow and its biggest consumption need is TIME. There's no other way to put it. An A appears to grow into a full blow child and that child's needs no longer become optional....they become mandatory!

 

After spending time with mow 2 night ago, our convos are becoming far more open about plans. Since we work together, it makes our emotional state all the more risky. If she didn't work with me, then it would be easier.

 

Mow is looking for a way out of her M. I'm it. Just like many AP's, its easy to find an outlet to get one out of a Marriage, but is it the right reason and the best one? That is what i can't answer.

[beach]

You don't seem to answer any questions. You just ask more of others. That's no solution.

 

The solution is simple = make a decision and stick to it!

 

 

Using two women to satisfy your selfish needs is just cruel and self centered.

 

Your wife deserves better than what you offer.

 

Divorce her and marry the cheater ow - you two will understand each other.

[2sunny]

Why don't you get honest with at LEAST your OW and tell her you plan to dump her and stay married?

 

Tell her you've had your fun and now that she has some demands and expectations from you - that you don't plan to follow through with her plans?

 

 

It's typical affair behavior. You cheat and lie. She tells you she expects more of a commitment from you. And you dump her because you don't intend to have your wife find out.

 

 

Just get it over with already. At least get honest with the OW if not your wife.

[Red123]

You don't seem to answer any questions. You just ask more of others. That's no solution.

 

The solution is simple = make a decision and stick to it!

 

 

Using two women to satisfy your selfish needs is just cruel and self centered.

 

Your wife deserves better than what you offer.

 

Divorce her and marry the cheater ow - you two will understand each other.

 

I agree. I think it's very interesting that you keep stating that you love the MOW so much but want to stay with your wife because of the kids and your belief that your wife wouldn't make it without you as though by staying you are sparing your W and kids. One of the cruelest things a man can do to a woman is to stay together for the kids. People divorce all the time and co-parent successfully. I don't agree that staying for the kids is a valid reason. Also have you considered that your wife may not be as happy in the marriage as you think she is? When people are in affairs they are not giving either relationship what the person deserves so she may feel the distance from you. Also if she knew about your relationship with the MOW she may not want to stay with you. Just my opinion, I only know what you have posted here not the whole situation. Also if the MOW is in love with you as you say it is unlikely she will lose interest in you because of a job change. If she does then you should question if what you have together is what you say it is. I think you are being cruel to both women.

[2sunny]

When you spend these hours and hours with your OW - where does your wife think you are during that time?

[Realist3]

Conflictedlove, I am questioning if you are trolling or just a passive-aggressive person. Great advice and you're still anguishing over, or, seemingly anguishing over what you think is some decision that you think needs to be made.

 

It is only his 5th or 6th username over the past 2 years, that should tell you something.

[conflictedlove]

 

 

 

I am now married to my former AP and we are very happy, so any questions you have, I'll be more than happy to answer. I'm an incredibly honest person, so I'll tell you the good, bad, and ugly.

 

Some things to think about:

 

1. He was my first, last, and only affair.

2. He was the first, last, and only time I considered having an affair before.

3. The above applied to him as well.

4. While it started as chemistry, passion, and close friendship, it didn't evolve into what it is now overnight.

5. It was a hard transition for both of us.

 

Neither one of us were the type to have the wandering eye before, never thought we'd have an affair, and we just sort of did. After the chemistry wore off and we really evaluated that this is what we wanted, we both left our spouses. My transition out of my marriage was relatively easy (no kids, I asked for nothing in the divorce, and overall just wanted out quickly and painlessly as possible), his transition was not.

 

I think what makes us successful is that we really, really work at the things that led us to have an affair in the first place, because we communicate so openly about everything, and because we make a concerted effort to really communicate everything. I'm not sure if it's because my first marriage failed and this one isn't, or because of how we started, but I think we've both invested way more time, effort, and energy to get this one to work... Just because we want it to work so badly. As a result, we have a great, happy marriage.

 

That all being said, we do have issues sometimes. His ex doesn't know boundaries and does try to go past them. This triggers issues of insecurity, jealousy, and anger which I have a tendency to misplace on my husband. These issues were made worse by the totally unrelated fact that I got ill a few years ago and as a result developed what has been diagnosed as bipolar II depression... And these are issues we never had before that happened. So there are times I don't understand why he doesn't act more firmly with her when she crosses lines... He is more of a "ignore her and she'll stop" (and he's right, when she doesn't have an audience, she doesn't do it), whereas I'm more of a "go, lay down the law, let it not happen again, let her know where she stands." She also acts in such a way that she knows is disruptive and I fall for it every time, whereas he's really good at just ignoring it or not playing to it.

 

He and I both know and acknowledge that this issue is 100% related to the combination of my issues along with the fact that his transition was hard and he left her, went back, left her, went back multiple times. I never really got over that and all of my trust issues are related to a fear that is occasionally triggered by a fear that he'd leave again, despite the fact I know it's totally irrational in my logical mind. You've never met a more loyal, loving, devoted, caring, attentive husband as my husband. He works his butt off to make sure I don't have a reason to doubt him, and honestly, as long as my illness isn't messing with me, I don't.

 

I should also throw out there that my divorce literally meant that my ex husband was gone forever. No kids, I waived my rights to joint property and assets... I have no reason to see him and he's not in our lives at all. I think if I had to see my ex to the same level he sees his (she works with him, they share kids, she lives less than half a mile away), it would be another aspect that would complicate things. Ruin our marriage? No, but I think he'd struggle with it in ways that I sometimes struggle with his post-divorce relationship with his ex.

 

Now, I didn't have kids, but he has two with his ex. The co-parenting relationship was rocky for a few years, not going to lie. After some time, a lot of fights between the three of us, and finally just going to court to make it irrefutably official, things have settled down. Now I'm another Mom, she'll publicly admit that I'm another Mom, we exchange birthday, mother's day, Christmas gifts and meet for playdates with the kids. We're not friends because, in the end, I don't like her, and I don't think she likes me. But we have a working relationship that is maybe one click above civil. I still have to maintain some boundaries (a few weeks ago she randomly asked if we wanted a playdate and I said sure, but it became apparent she actually wanted to meet to take advantage of some consulting work I do for free, and get a free meal). I'd say it took maybe about a year after the affair started before "she can't be around them at all" stopped, maybe 6 months after that overnights started.

 

My husband, I think he'd prefer I didn't see her at all because she has a tendency to turn it around into something where she works us against each other. For example, she asked us to take the kids one weekend so she could do something, my husband said no because we had plans. She said "Well I talked to your wife, she said you guys were just going to be at home all weekend" when I actually answered her question of "are you going to see X movie this weekend" with "No, I don't think we're planning to. We're having a quiet weekend."

 

 

 

Knowing what I know now? Yes. Honestly, making that decision now, knowing how it all will settle out and the end result, it's not hard. I have the advantage of hindsight and the knowledge it'll work out. It was much, much, much harder to answer that question in the middle of it all, when I didn't know what would happen. When life was tears, uncertainty, instability, fear of rejection, fear of wasting my time or my life, etc etc. There were plenty of times when I was in the middle of it all, when things were bad and looking worse, I was asking myself "why am I doing this? This isn't worth it." In the end, what made me think about sticking it through was the reflection where I'd rather live with the worst possible and realistic result of this situation than the best possible result of the situation I was in. Meaning, the worst day of managing our affair and that relationship was still better than a forever of only the best days of my current marriage. And his decision went along those same lines as well with his marriage.

 

I think the thing I would change, though, wouldn't be for me, it'd be for him, and it's advice I'll give you too. Once you make your decision to either stay or go, make it and be done. Stick with it. Be it stay with your spouse and resume the affair, stay with your spouse and end the affair, leave your spouse and live with the OW, leave the marriage and end the affair... Whatever it is. Just make it, stick with it, and let everybody know where they stand. The more you flip back and forth by coming and going, the more you damage your chance of going back to the marriage, the more obstacles and things to work through in your post-affair relationship, the more eroding of trust, the more instability, the more confusion for the kids. When my husband and I talk about it now, he says he'd just stuck with his decision to go the first time and not flipped back and forth so many times. He realizes it did damage that we still deal with to this day (and consequentially, if he'd stayed in his marriage it would have been damage he would have to still deal with there) and I think despite how happy we are, it is a lingering guilt he has when I have insecurity issues.

 

The kids now are happy, healthy, and totally adjusted to the situation. The transition was hard, again, the flip flopping made it difficult on one of them (one was a newborn when he left the first time so the impact there wasn't as great and the post-divorce transition was much easier, the other was an older toddler and it was more difficult at first), but after the final decision was made and we all, him and I as well as his mother, could actively work to build that stable new post-divorce life, the rough part passed and the new reality set in. We still make adjustments here and there... The oldest now tries to play the households against each other ("well Mom said this..." "Well dad lets me do that...") and the youngest uses a similar tactic, only with crying, when things don't go their way (when we make dinner the youngest doesn't like, there are tears and "I miss my mom" but when the youngest gets in trouble with mom, there are tears and "I miss my dad"). Despite our disagreements and her lack of boundaries, we can still come together and share what's happening and apply consistent standards between houses.

 

 

 

Only you can make the decision that works best for you. I tend to think that unless the job you get MOW is some amazing job, she'd see that for the distraction it was, or more likely, see you being attentive to getting that job as a passive sign you accept and are willing to invest in a post-divorce life with her. Looking from the outside, if the relationship was continuing and my AP had started to find me a new job elsewhere, I'd have taken that to mean he wants me to be the first stabilizer in our new life and I'd have the expectation that he was following me.

 

As far as what your wife can and can't do post divorce, I can't answer that only to say that you shouldn't sell her short. This isn't meant to push you to stay or go one way or the other and I don't want to downplay the reality that it'll be a tough transition, but you may be surprised in that she's stronger at that new reality than you give her credit for. I think maybe complacency and routine, looking with her with the same neutral eyes you've used for the last 14 years or however long may make you think she's nothing but dependent. Perhaps she'd surprise you and not be. My husband thought his ex wouldn't make it on her own with the kids and that was a large reason he stayed as long as he did, and her playing to that was a big reason he bounced back and forth a few times. In the end though, once the chips were down and he said "this is it, there's no going back" and she took him seriously, she moved on. Now, 5 years down the road, she works, she runs her household, she's fine independently and the only bad choices she makes with regards to that is based off of laziness and bad money management (paying for a vacation as opposed to the power bill for example), not that she's incapable.

 

I only point it out because maybe realizing your wife is stronger than you maybe take for granted will make you think that either A. you can get up and leave and after time, effort, and support (from you too) she'll be fine, or B. she's not the weak, incapable dependent you thought and maybe more of a partner than you realized, making it easier to decide to stay.

 

 

 

I don't think a failed marriage or an affair for that matter make you less of a man. More than half of marriages end, a lot of times it is because of an affair. Even falling in love with somebody else, that's not something you can help. It just happens. It doesn't make you less of a man, in fact, it's a just a facet of what makes us humans. The fact that you're even thinking about it as carefully as you are and not acting on impulse shows this isn't a man with the attitude of a child or a boy just acting out... You're a man, weighing out want vs. obligation, need vs want, and trying to do your best to do what's best for everybody else. So when I see this, staying, going, or maintaining the status quo, I don't see this as a "I'm not a man" issue. I know others disagree, and that is what is is, but from where I sit, I see a man making a careful, grownup decision after weighing what he wants second only to what's best for the people he loves. I'm sure at some point in all of this, either OW or your wife will accuse you of not being a real man, and I know that will hurt and you'll doubt yourself. But being a man doesn't mean nobody gets hurt in the pursuit of doing what's best (again, stay, go, or remain the same, whatever it is).

 

I think one thing that you have to be aware of, which may make people question your manhood, is indecisiveness. Being so fixated on hurting nobody that you hurt everybody, including yourself. It's better to tell everybody what's going on, why, and stick to it than to throw everybody little scraps in the hopes they'll think you're a good guy and the problem goes away. I'm personally not saying that does or doesn't make you a man, again, because even men make mistakes in trying to do what's right. But I think that little bit of a little for everybody to save face, stay OK with everybody, and not rock the boat... It can give the impression of a choice by a child who doesn't want to get in trouble. Having been there, done that, I know differently, but from the outside looking in, they may not get it.

 

If you need anything, let me know. I'll listen, answer questions, or whatever you need.

 

RedHead,

 

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

 

I can't say it enough. You have actually indentified where I'm at and where I may be, by you sharing where you are at now. It's as if I'm looking ahead of what may come by staying with mow and the various obstacles we may face. You clearly stated the pros and cons and they are as real as a heart attack.

 

You also understand my internal struggles. It kills me. Beyond belief. Today as was on the verge of telling my w it was over. I feel like I've been pulling back and seeing her lack of focus on our kids school, after school commitments and overall their best interest when it comes to homework. She gets caught up in herself and as the youngest of 5, she has gotten away with it as a child and as a W to me. I'm the oldest in my family so naturally i refuse to let her fail. Iv'e done it over and over again. Made all the excuses, did all of the academic intervention for my kids and basically gave my w tasks to follow up on that required more direction from me. I've been living with someone who can't or won't make adult decisions and i have conditioned her to let me make all decisions. She just has to be let me know and I decide. Horrible. My fault. I've set her up this way and I am responsible for this dependency behavior that crosses into neglect of my kids at times.

 

At times I'm scared. You are right....I try to not make a firm decision in order to keep everyone happy. You are also right about me helping mow get another job away from me at my work. She has stated just as you mentioned, that her making a job transition is for the purpose of us taking our next steps and wants the commitment and plan clearly laid out. At times I go with it and tell her yes. At times, alone, I know i can't do it. Or i think I can't do it. I'm stuck and I'm trying to keep all ends tied up unraveled but, there is one big caveat coming up. I am looking to sell my place and I have not told mow. Why? because if she knows she will feel like i'm planning on staying with my w. I want to stay with her at times. At other times, like today, I want to sell my place, give her the half she's entitled, take one of my kids with me and say goodbye. I just can't live with this unattached woman that I married. On the other hand, mow is on the other extreme, she wants to talk to me all the time and misses me all the time. I mean all the time. I think about how this stage is a longing stage and will be unlike IF we come together after 6 months of separation from our spouses.

 

The sad fact is, having being weighed down everyday by all this, I can't talk to anyone but here, you and others. It's the only solace i have. There's no where else to go. I feel partly like i can exhale here, someone who cares and knows what i'm going through, no need to put on a facade of being strong. I'm fragile over this whole thing and no one knows but you and others here. I feel safe stating this here so thank you.

 

I think back about what you shared with the various insecurities and the transition being very difficult. I can see mow transition from her h much easier. She has 2 kids and i have 3. I will have the harder time like your H did. I don't want to go back and forth either. I want to take the shot of pain, cry endlessly and move on. The thought of stranding my w and kids (even though I won't be, it feels that way) hits at me like I can't do it. As the oldest, abandonment was never an option. I had to be there like so many others possibly on here. But i also know i'm putting my kids in a less than optimal situation by them witnessing the arguments and distance between my w and I. I think about how my daughter will perceive this is how being married is and I can't handle that either. She has to know its more than just want exists between my w and I. I want her to know its strong and close like with mow and myself. I don't want her to settle like I did. I want her to have high expectations and get them when she finds a man who demonstrates love to her unlike any other.

 

As you mentioned, there will be a cordial time with mow and my w and kids. I just can't see it for a very long time if at all. I have a hard time seeing my w with someone else. I know she'll be happier...I just feel a little jealous but who am I to even feel that way? I guess I've had both my w and mow and i've been content with it. The problem is, the A evolved into a commitment, and from a commitment to a relationship that demands an answer one way or another.

 

I'm partly saddened that my w doesn't even think about how I'm up late or how I spend so much time at work. I mean, that just says a lot about her, about us and about the disconnect. I spend so much time at work that i rarely see her. She's fine with it as long as I provide a roof over her head and handle my kids school events and provide from everyone. What a life.

 

You are correct that others here have been less than cordial but I respectfully consider their thoughts as well. Some speak from past pain and others from past failures. I learn from them all. I know there will be no winners when it comes time to force my hand and decide. That is the hardest part I think about. Enough to keep me up at night...constantly.

[conflictedlove]

When you spend these hours and hours with your OW - where does your wife think you are during that time?

 

Sunny,

 

That's exactly my point. She doesn't question anything because she's spending time on her phone with her sis and relatives. I don't see her at night and only when i take my daughter to school.

 

It only tells you the disconnect in her too! It's irrational for any spouse to have their h or w be gone like this. Just a shock.

[conflictedlove]

I agree. I think it's very interesting that you keep stating that you love the MOW so much but want to stay with your wife because of the kids and your belief that your wife wouldn't make it without you as though by staying you are sparing your W and kids. One of the cruelest things a man can do to a woman is to stay together for the kids. People divorce all the time and co-parent successfully. I don't agree that staying for the kids is a valid reason. Also have you considered that your wife may not be as happy in the marriage as you think she is? When people are in affairs they are not giving either relationship what the person deserves so she may feel the distance from you. Also if she knew about your relationship with the MOW she may not want to stay with you. Just my opinion, I only know what you have posted here not the whole situation. Also if the MOW is in love with you as you say it is unlikely she will lose interest in you because of a job change. If she does then you should question if what you have together is what you say it is. I think you are being cruel to both women.

 

Hi Red123,

 

Thank you for your feedback and yes, I am probably wrong for staying for the kids. I'm sure my w is in this for the kids as well but like you said, she's probably unhappy as well. I'm pretty sure she knows something is up. i've tried to sleep on the couch and she gets up at some point in the middle of the night and calls me back to bed. I don't want to go there anymore. I feel like i need to let her know this gap is serious and we both need to admit it.

 

if i told her about my mow, she would probably want to leave me and maybe work things out in a separation stage. I can't be sure though.

 

If mow does leave our company where we work together and gets another job, my hope is that she will be so consumed by her job that i will eventually fade away. Why is this a hope of mine? Maybe then she kills off the A that way and as you said, it ends up not being what we both future faked it to be. Then again, i don't think she's going to consider another job w/o having a firm plan in place for us to be together.

 

Right now......i think i need a vacation from both. my wife will be leaving to see her sis in a few days and i'll have my kids for a few days alone. I need that badly because I know i'll want to do what's in there best interest by either staying or going. I'm wrong as you said...and maybe that's the only thing left that needs to be said. Staying for the kids is wrong and w/o that, what do we have? i fear nothing.

[Redheaded Mistress]

Conflicted, I just want you to know that I see what you wrote, thank you for your compliments, and I've read through what you've put up. I'm not ignoring you, I'm just headed out to the gym with the kids and it'll be a bit before I can give your post the attention it deserves.