dump a bad marriage for an old love?

[Moose]

since you're such a brilliant advisor in these situations, please explain how, exactly, he can get her to participate in this process. I'll be fascinated to read what you have to say about that.

You answered your own question:

You see, you actually decided to change yourself.

That's what the OP needs to do.

But this guy has tried to ask wifey to go for counselling and she refuses

Again, who says she's the one that needs the counceling? He hasn't done everything he can yet, I didn't see anywhere were he's tried counceling himself. Through counceling he could discover why she's acting this way and get advice on how best to approach it.

Fine. Do so. Do NOT speak for me, however.

I wasn't just speaking for you, I'm talking about all the, "moi's", out there, sorry for pointing the finger only at you, and your right, maybe I should've said, "all the people who think like moi", or, "moi's type", you're natorious for your way of thinking.......what do you expect?

He's hung in there already for years and years. It's not a brand-new issue, Moose. It's longstanding, which is the big difference. He's already tried your way and nothing has changed. Time for a new plan.

NO he hasn't.

[moimeme]

I fell in love with my wife because she was cute and nice and crazy about me. She still is all those things 20 years later

 

Entirely different situation.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by moimeme

Entirely different situation.

 

How can you know that defintitively, Moi? People get so messed up with resentment in long-lived marriages.

 

Sometimes, the love is still there. It's just buried under decades of hard-feelings. Now, I'll grant you sometimes it's gone. But how can you know until you put the work in?

[midlifecrazy]

Wow! Quite a firststorm I've provoked. I'll try to respond to the high or low points.

Moose, as others have said this is no new problem, I have tried and have been trying for over 30 years. As I said earlier I'm apparently a little slow on the uptake. And I'm still willing to give it another chance. If you think it's easy contemplating ending a lifetime together you're dead wrong. Nothing could be harder for me. Right now we have a settled stable comfortable life

. It is scary to think about ending it and diving out into the great unknown.

 

As far as commitment, under the circumstances, I feel as if I have shown mine and done all that honor requires. Divorce is an accepted legal concept under the proper instances. Even the Catholic Church sanctions divorce in some cases. Have you ever heard the term "constructive abanonment"?

 

Still the easier route for me would be to sit back down, shut up and hope for an early death. I need to say though for everyone's benefit, in everything but her relationship with me she is a pretty good woman. She's a great mother to our kids ( they're grown).

 

But between us, it's getting toxic. I have never claimed to be Mr Perfect but neither am I an a**h*** to her. It's not just the sex thing. She contnually snipes without provocation or justification. Put my foot down? That will result in another memorable battle. We just passed the first anniversary of a titanic confrontation. I don't think we'll survive another one like that. I if really decide it's time to end it all I have to do is step up intead of shut up.

 

I think we are really at the tipping point. Can it be saved? Stay tuned.

[Lil Honey]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

I have tried and have been trying for over 30 years.

 

If you think it's easy contemplating ending a lifetime together you're dead wrong. Nothing could be harder for me. Right now we have a settled stable comfortable love. It is scary to think about ending it and diving out into the great unknown.

 

As far as commitment, under the circumstances, I feel as if I have shown mine and done all that honor requires.

 

Still the easier route for me would be to sit back down, shut up and hope for an early death. I need to say though for everyone's benefit, in everything but her relationship with me she is a pretty good woman. She's a great mother to our kids ( they're grown).

 

But between us, it's getting toxic. I have never claimed to be Mr Perfect but neither am I an a**h*** to her. It's not just the sex thing.

 

I can relate to everything here . . . "getting toxic" is an excellent way to express it, as I have felt like I was dying - from the inside out.

[Bubbles]

Yes, please do keep us posted. As for myself; I promise to listen and read with an open mind.

 

bubbles

[Moose]

have you ever been as lonely as this guy sounds? Have you ever ached for your partner to touch you so much that you cried yourself to sleep at night?

Yes I've been lonely, no I never cried myself to sleep. And frankly, I doubt the OP has either. At least, it doesn't sound like to me his hurting in that way.

It's easy for people to say what you should do- especially if they have never been in that situation before.

I agree, that's why I don't agree with the cut and run theory. The problems he's posted doesn't sound like valid reasons to dump his wife.

If she won't go to MC (whether or not she is at fault) then she doesn't want to work on her marriage, period.

So is this supossed to give him an excuse not to go himself?

A good MC will be able to determine who really has the problem here and whether or not it's worth it for him to stay in this marriage

First he needs to go, with or without her.

His wifes comments about finding someone else if he wants to have sex?? I have read that most women say that when they just don't care about the relationship anymore.

Is it possible that she's says things like this because she wants reassurance from him that he won't resort to sleeping with someone else? Mrs. Moose fishes like that all the time. I don't know why she wastes her time like that, I prefer the more foward approach.

[Moose]

I have tried and have been trying for over 30 years.

Then maybe you ought to approach this differently somehow. And please, listen to yourself. It's all been about you and what you want so far. There are other people involved.

If you think it's easy contemplating ending a lifetime together you're dead wrong.

Where did you get the indication I said it was? I'm not stupid.....I've been married close to 20 years, life without my wife is a horrible thought.

I feel as if I have shown mine and done all that honor require

It's obvious that you and I have different definition of honor then. There's nothing wrong with that.

Divorce is an accepted legal concept under the proper instances. Even the Catholic Church sanctions divorce in some cases. Have you ever heard the term "constructive abanonment"?

Who cares? It's not a question of what others think divorce is, it's a question of what you personally think a commitment is.

But between us, it's getting toxic. I have never claimed to be Mr Perfect but neither am I an a**h*** to her. It's not just the sex thing. She contnually snipes without provocation or justification. Put my foot down?

Like I said before, life is what you make it. It takes a little work, but you know this too can change. You just choose to deny that. That's all.

[Bubbles]

You know what would be really great?

 

If Mrs. midlifecrazy was fighting for the marriage as much as Moose is.........

 

You know something Moose? Sometimes you just have to look in the mirror and decide who you feel sorrier for? Yourself or your partner?

It's not up to us to decide weather or not someone should "Fight" or "Leave". Again ultimatly.....it is not our decision.

 

Both yourself and a number of others have made some excellent opinions. I think we should just leave it at that for now and allow the OP to plan his course of action. We are not making ourselves look like level headed people here by fighting and argueing with each-other over who has the more valid point.

 

 

bubbles

[Moose]

I'm not trying to fight anyone or make myself look level headed for anyone. I'm just trying to give others another point of view. That's it.

Sometimes you just have to look in the mirror and decide who you feel sorrier for? Yourself or your partner?

Bull.

[Mz. Pixie]

Moose- I appreciate your points of view, I really do.

 

I am a huge believer in committment, I really and truly am. I stayed married a long time for what was the right thing to do. However, my husband refused to work on our marriage. My misery got to a level that was either going to make me committ suicide or go crazy. I figured my kids deserved a better mom than that.

 

I agree he should do IC. I did this as well before I decided to end my marriage.

IC is a great thing, it helps everyone really!

[Lil Honey]

Kudos, again, Mz Pixie . . .

 

IC is a great thing, it helps everyone really!

Yeah, it gave me the strength and self-confidence to end my marriage . . .

[Bubbles]

So you see Moose......we're not all as lucky as you to have our s/o be a willing participant in marriage couselling Sorry Buddy

Some of us HAVE TO walk away - I did, Mz. Pixie did and so did Lil Honey.

 

YOU are one lucky man to have your wife be willing to counsil with you or she is lucky that YOU agreed - whichever fits. You are Lucky.

 

bubbles

[Moose]

Originally posted by Bubbles

So you see Moose......we're not all as lucky as you to have our s/o be a willing participant in marriage couselling Sorry Buddy

Some of us HAVE TO walk away - I did, Mz. Pixie did and so did Lil Honey.

 

YOU are one lucky man to have your wife be willing to counsil with you or she is lucky that YOU agreed - whichever fits. You are Lucky.

 

bubbles

Where in the world did you see that I or the Mrs. have ever been to counceling? What Moi is talking about is that I decided to change my ways. I'm an alcoholic, and wasn't caring what other people wanted. I was in this life for one thing, and that was me. Until I made a decision to make a change in myself, and think about others instead of myself is when our problems began to resolve.

 

I've said it before, and it's only my opinion. I think most divorces are caused because of either selfishness, or lazyness. Those two things seem to be what comes up the most. I got in trouble saying that these two things are the only cause, so please understand, I'm not saying that.

 

I'm sorry that you and others went through what you did. It's unfortunate. But just because I'm happy, and know what a marriage is, and how to maintain it, doesn't make me, "lucky". It does show that I'm not selfish or lazy though.

[Bubbles]

Moose,

 

WE are nit-picking now. Let's just stop this thread o.k.? It looks like we have lost the OP any-ways.

 

bubbles

[moimeme]

It's astonishing to me, Moose, that you still don't get it. I'm guessing Mrs. Moose would have given up on you eventually, but you turned it around. OP's wifey isn't about to. It's a totally different situation and yet you're applying your standards to it. And you've quit giving your opinion and started browbeating OP.

 

I just bet, Moose, that you would not have put up with thirty sexless years and without love and affection. Few humans can manage that sort of deprived existence.

[midlifecrazy]

OK for all suggesting counseling. I tried again. I did not just hit her with this out of the blue today. I laid some groundwork before going into the subject with her. I'll lay out the conversation in a he said/she said format and try to repeat it verbatim as much as I remember it. If you don't believe me well that's your problem.

 

he said "I think we need to see a sex therapist" (maybe should have said marriage counselor?)

 

she said (looking as if I had just suggested having sex with farm animals) "sex therapist? I'm not going to any sex therapist. What do we need a therapist for?"

 

he said "we have a problem"

 

she: "we don't have any problems"

 

he "we've had problems for a long time, you know it"

 

she: "why do you have to be like that?"

 

he: "like what?"

 

she "wanting it all the time. I've talked to people. they don't do that"

 

he: "women?"

 

she: "men too" (note to self why the hell would she be talking about sex to other men?) (she means in person she doesn't go online)

 

he: 'I can't help being who I am. What am I supposed to do?"

 

she: no reply

 

he "don't you even want to try to work on it/"

 

she: "work on what? I'm happy"

 

he: 'well what about me?"

 

she: "well if I don't make you happy I guess you'd better get a divorce and go find somebody who can"

 

he: just turns his head and gives up,

 

End of conversation. I'd swear to this in a court of law. This of course is far from the first time she's alluded to leaving or divorce, It just rolls off her lips so damned easy.

 

Oh, and I guess that clears up what she means about finding another woman.

 

I feel sick to my stomach

[moimeme]

You've got one last option - the ultimatum. 'We see a counsellor or else it's divorce'. Only use it if you mean it. It might shake her up when you call her bluff. Or it might not. Some people will live in lifelong denial and suffer alone rather than admit there's something wrong. Whatever the cause of your wife's unwillingness to face any issues, there isn't thing one you can do about it unless she's willing to participate.

 

I'm sorry about this. You've got a tough road ahead.

[lynnered]

midlifecrazy,

i feel so bad for you!!

at least if you go you will know you tried

you deserve to be happy ,

she deserves to be happy,

nobody sounds happy!!

you know inside what you want to do ,

whatever you do stay or go keep posting it !!

it does help nobody knows you ,like you know yourself ,

but others input can provoke thought

and getting it out helps .

gook luck

 

being alone with someone else is the loneliest place in the world.

[Moose]

Ok, you see! Now even you are catching on Moi.

You've got one last option - the ultimatum.

Where before you were:

Divorce and leave her alone. You can't go back again. Your desperation in your own situation has made you think she's got the lifeline you need. She doesn't. You can do it on your own without ruining someone else's marriage. So do so.

That's what I'm talking about. Not just you either. It's a load of people who just jump off the handle and naturally assume it's a one sided issue, and boom the OP needs to bail.

 

I have to say that from the conversation you had with your Mrs. Midlifecrazy, I still feel no need to leave the marriage. It's clear she's in denial, and that show knows there's a problem. Denial is the first sign something is going on people. Midlifecrazy is now the co-dependent of this relationship and should get help for himself, even if she's not willing to go with him. Period.

 

He could not only learn how to deal with Mrs. Midlifecrazy, but it could also give him a wealth of knowledge on how to deal with the situation, (including his sexual problems). Not saying that it'll always work out, but at least he's trying ANOTHER option.

 

Midlifecrazy, there's no shame in going to counceling alone. Noone but you and your councelour need to know about it. You don't know us, and we don't know you. I'm not trying to put anyone down, I'm sure that you feel you've done everything you can, I just come off as a holier than thou marriage defender because I know from my experiences that it's nearly NEVER a lost cause. And based on everything you've told us, you're nowhere even close to a horrible marriage. Your just in a place that slowly developed, and now you need to get yourself out. It doesn't mean it has to end in a divorce.

[lynnered]

'based on everything you've told us, you're nowhere even close to a horrible marriage. Your just in a place that slowly developed, and now you need to get yourself out. It doesn't mean it has to end in a divorce.'

 

i guess it depends on the person to me his marriage does sound horrible ,

20 years of being unhappy?

she does not sound like she cares at all denial?

im sure she knows

they have no communication

shes not willing to even try

you cannot lead someone to positive change by doing for them

what they should be doing for themselves ,

it takes 2 ,

2 of them walked down the aisle together .

maybe she wants out?

this is his choice ,because she is just letting it happen no fight

can he force her to fight for the marrige ?

 

midlifecrazy ,you need to think long &hard before you do anything .

keep posting it will help the thought process.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

OK for all suggesting counseling. I tried again. I did not just hit her with this out of the blue today. I laid some groundwork before going into the subject with her. I'll lay out the conversation in a he said/she said format and try to repeat it verbatim as much as I remember it. If you don't believe me well that's your problem.

 

he said "I think we need to see a sex therapist" (maybe should have said marriage counselor?)

 

Yeah, saying "Marriage Counselor" would have improved the entire interaction. By saying "Sex Therapist" she immediately went negative on you. She likely sees the bottom line of your agenda as getting sexual gratification for yourself. Not as improving your relationship so that sex becomes just one aspect of a close and intimate partnership.

 

she said (looking as if I had just suggested having sex with farm animals) "sex therapist? I'm not going to any sex therapist. What do we need a therapist for?"

 

Unless she said the words, "having sex with farm animals", then whatever look she gave you is subject to your own perceptions. You may have interpreted it correctly....or not.

 

But you lost her entirely in the beginning when you said "Sex Therapist" and revealed your agenda. Everything after that becomes negative.

 

he said "we have a problem"

 

she: "we don't have any problems"

 

he "we've had problems for a long time, you know it"

 

Here's where you could have described "the problems" in a specific way would have let her know that your concern is for the health of the relationship. This is where you can take the focus off of the "sex" agenda.

 

She needs to know that this is NOT about sex. It's about intimacy, closeness, companionship, friendship, and everything else that is wonderful about a good marriage....but is sadly lacking in yours.

 

she: "why do you have to be like that?"

 

he: "like what?"

 

she "wanting it all the time. I've talked to people. they don't do that"

 

he: "women?"

 

she: "men too" (note to self why the hell would she be talking about sex to other men?) (she means in person she doesn't go online)

 

he: 'I can't help being who I am. What am I supposed to do?"

 

she: no reply

 

These are all responses to your not-so-hidden agenda. She's in a state of sexual avoidance and she feels used in the relationship. You very likely cannot identify with that from a male perspective. A relationship that has lost it's TRUE intimacy can leave a woman feeling like a collection of various and sundry body parts. It's degrading to feel like everything you are as a person is reduced to an oriface for someone else's use.

 

That is not meant to be accusatory. But perception is reality in that it must be dealt with. If those are her feelings...then they are REAL. They have to be addressed.

 

he "don't you even want to try to work on it/"

 

she: "work on what? I'm happy"

 

She sees this as your problem. Not hers. That's why you need to make it her problem as well. When all else is shot to hell, it really is time to go for the ultimatum as Moi suggested. When it's all lost anyway, what else is there left to lose?

 

he: 'well what about me?"

 

she: "well if I don't make you happy I guess you'd better get a divorce and go find somebody who can"

 

Never say "what about me?". You'll get a smart-a$$, negative response like the one you got EVERY TIME. I doubt she means it, but in saying it you clearly prioritized your needs/wants ahead of hers. Next time maybe you could rephrase that to include both of your needs, ie. "How can we repair our relationship if we aren't working together?"

 

So no, it's not permission to find another woman. It's a defensive riposte. She felt threatened.

 

Geez man....I've had this same conversation in my own home before! I'm sure you feel like you're the only guy in the world dealing with a wife who just doesn't get it. But this is probably the most common problem in modern-day marriage. It ain't nothing new.

 

You're not going to get anywhere with her until she understands your POV, and until you understand hers. That means that unless one of you gets the ball rolling, you're at a stalemate.

 

I can see that some of the other posters feel that you are being harrassed by the vehemence of Moose's responses....probably mine too. For my part, I can assure you that I don't care if you leave your wife or not. It doesn't effect my life in any way.

 

But it does seem a sincere shame to not tell you that there is hope. I've been in a 20-year marriage that was dead for a decade. And today, my feet barely touch the ground....I'm that in love with my husband.

 

Does it happen for everyone? Nope. But it happened for me in my relationship, and it happened for Moose in his. That's why we tell people about it. Because it's possible, and shouldn't be shot down out of hand.

 

The comfort and support that a person can derive from a committed relationship of long-standing....is AMAZING. It transcends the march of time itself. And it rivals anything the flutter of new romance can offer.

 

The same words that came out of your wife's mouth last night, have come out of mine...damn near verbatim. And my husband was just as angry and frustrated as you are today.

 

But here we are, happer than either of us imagined possible.

 

(Oh, and in case you're wondering....my husband is getting all he can handle. Hell, he's gonna need vitamins at this rate. )

[moimeme]

been in a 20-year marriage that was dead for a decade

 

Not three decades.

[midlifecrazy]

You know if it wasn't so sad it would almost be funny. I knew the minute I said it that "sex therapist" was the wrong phrase. Almost like watching an episode of Raymond or King of Queens or something.

 

LadyJane that's probably a real good analysis of the whole interaction. Moose, if it comes down to it I really don't see how going to counseling by myself would help. What would they teach me, how to cope? I've been doing that for 30 years. How to be less self-absorbed and selfish? Ditto the 30 year thing. How little Jack Horney can go sit in the corner, play with his plum and take care or himself. Thanks, but I already figured that one out by myself. (which is probably more information than anyone needs)

 

Ladyj, I think I'll wait a few days to let the dust settle and then try again using your approach. If it's still a no, what then? Try. try again? I guess we'll cross

that bridge when we come to it

[Moose]

Moose, if it comes down to it I really don't see how going to counseling by myself would help. What would they teach me, how to cope? I've been doing that for 30 years.

No, cope means: "to deal with and attempt to overcome problems and difficulties", attempt being the operative word. It's obvious you know how to cope with the problem. What you need is a solution. Everything you've tried, failed. That's why I think the personal counceling can take you a bit further over the line to where you're not just coping with it, your solving it.

How to be less self-absorbed and selfish? Ditto the 30 year thing.

Self asorbtion and selfishness go together. Reading how your conversation went with Mrs. Midlifecrazy, it's obvious that your efforts to be less self asorbed, or selfish have been clouded over the years. The reason I said that is because the conversation clearly didn't show any conscience effort on your part to appeal to her needs and problems.

 

I've had to stop and make myself think about what Mrs. Moose would feel like if I said this or said that millions of times. I had to make that a habit in order to get my feelings, and my thoughts clear to her. It is a little more work, but my goals are almost always met when I appeal to her feelings first. It only takes 30 days to make or break a habit, learning to communicate with your SO tactfully will produce fruit for you. Counceling could help you to learn how to do this.