dump a bad marriage for an old love?

[moimeme]

I'm going to tell Mrs about it and ask her again what am I supposed to do for sex

 

I wouldn't. Instead, ask her what you think a man and woman should each give to and get out of a relationship.

Find out what she believes about how a marriage should be.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

I'm going to tell Mrs about it and ask her again what am I supposed to do for sex. May be the wrong move but somethings got to give.

 

If you ask her, "What am I supposed to do for sex?"....she's going to give you a smart-a$$ answer, or argue with you. Guaranteed.

 

Moi has a good point, this is a great time to find out what Mrs. MLC's expectations are on the sexual relationship.

 

After that, you can counter with a description of your needs. You've already listened patiently and attentively to her side, so hopefully she'll return the favor and listen to yours. (I wouldn't hold my breath about that though. She doesn't have a strong track record for listening. )

 

However, she does need to understand your feelings. She needs to see Vesuvius looming on the horizon.

 

In a marriage where BOTH partners are healthy enough to engage in sexual activity, it is unacceptable for one to deny the other an adequate sex life. It's just UNACCEPTABLE. It's unhealthy for the marriage itself.

 

You have got to talk to this woman, and keep talking until she gets it. You've got to be willing to withstand conflict if you want to get your point across.

 

She's going to be mad at some point in the conversation. She's going to be stubborn. She's already demonstrated to you on countless occasions what her reaction is going to be. Don't let it dissuade you. Be calm, be serene....but KEEP TALKING.

 

What do you have to lose by issuing THE ULTIMATUM at this time? Are you ready, or are you uncertain about the risk? Keep in mind, ultimatums can go either way. So, it IS a risk. You should never use it in a bluff.

 

But if she won't engage in the marriage, and what you have together right now, today, is NOT the way you envision your life....then before you lose your ability to fight for your marriage....I encourage you to use it. Don't wait until your feelings are GONE.

 

Tell her something like this, but do it when YOU are ready to back it up, and not one minute before:

 

"I'm unhappy. I'm not willing to live out the rest of my life in an unhappy relationship. I do not feel loved by you. I'm not certain if I can continue to love you when I feel so rejected and empty. I have become an outsider, in my home and in my family, a place where I should be feeling comforted and integral.

 

I need a partner. I need a companion. I need a loving, sexual relationship. These things are not so much to ask, and I offer them freely in return. I need the woman that agreed to grow old with me....to be WITH me.

 

If we cannot agree to seek help for the healing of our relationship, then sadly, we cannot continue in the marriage. These are my NEEDS, not my WANTS. As such, they are not negotiable."

 

Keep us posted MLC.

[moimeme]

Moi has a good point, this is a great time to find out what Mrs. MLC's expectations are on the sexual relationship.

 

I wasn't talking about only the sexual part. I was talking about the entire marriage.

[midlifecrazy]

Well Moi & LadyJ I charged ahead before reading your advice. It wasn't a catastrophe. It wasn't much of anything at all . After going through the humiliating process of explaining what a "wet dream" was and why I was upset to have something I consider so juvenile happen to me, she said it was because of that movie we watched.

 

I then said the dread words " I need to get some release sometime". She said "But I've been sick". Indeed she was, 2 weeks ago. I haven't mentioned this before but she almost always ALWAYS is suffering from some kind of pain or ailment. Nothing bad enough to go to the doctor but something anyway. This has been a long term pattern in our marriage also. In the hyper-sensitive state I've come to be in, it just seems like constant variations on the "not tonight dear, I have a headache" ploy.

 

And I am not a heartless beast that would ravage her even if she were truly sick or hurting. Then there is the completely practical and selfish aspect of " hey, if she's sick I don't want to catch it."

 

I'm rambling. Anyway, that was the end of the discussion. We retired to neutral corners and went on about our normal business.

 

 

I'm still trying to locate someone for marriage counseling. When I do I imagine there might be a series of ULTIMATUMS. one to get her to go, one if she goes and we can't work things out and the BIG on if she keep her head buried in the sand and flat refuses to go at all.

 

By the way LJ I really like your style of ultimatum. It's concise, lucid and earnest. I might just have to memorize it for future reference.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

She said "But I've been sick". Indeed she was, 2 weeks ago. I haven't mentioned this before but she almost always ALWAYS is suffering from some kind of pain or ailment. Nothing bad enough to go to the doctor but something anyway. This has been a long term pattern in our marriage also. In the hyper-sensitive state I've come to be in, it just seems like constant variations on the "not tonight dear, I have a headache" ploy.

 

Yeah, that's probably sexual avoidance again. Still, if she hasn't been keeping up with her medical appointments, I'd consider sending her in for a check up. Particularly with her GYN....where she REALLY needs to discuss low libido.

 

I'm still trying to locate someone for marriage counseling.

 

Did you call your medical insurance company yet? They can give you some information on how to get started with that.

[midlifecrazy]

Oh, she does go to the doctor fairly regularly as needed. She had a female doctor until recently. The couple of times I suggested she might want to talk to her about her low libido were received with all the openness and enthusiasm as the sex therapy comment.

 

I've been trying to get hold of the physcologist at my local clinic but he's been out of town. I'm going to find out if this is something he would handle or if he can point me in the right direction.

 

One more tale of woe and then I think I'll stop recording every little sexual rejection for a while. We were laying in bed this AM. She got up for a bit and then she came back in and laid down again. I thought this might be a promising sign as on the rare occasion we make love its almost always in the morning, We talked a little and I tried to give her a hug but she said I was hurting her. We talked some more (about the kids). After the last few rejections I wasn't about to make a move again. So we lay there and lay there and she didn't show any interest in doing anything so we just finally got up.

 

I got dressed and left the room a minute. I got thinking about what LadyJ said about telling her what I needed. I went back into the bedroom where she was still dressing. Now maybe this was too specific a need but it's about as simple as you can get. I saw some hand lotion sitting on the night-stand and I told her I wished I had asked her to use it on me. She knew what I meant. She said it would probably burn. I said I doubted it since it was just lotion.(We're talking hand job here in case someone doesn't get it)

 

I left the room again relieved that this hadn't tripped her pervert alarm". So much so in fact that I thought , what the hell, go for it! I hopped back into the bedroom and asked her if she would do it. This tone her tone of voice sounded like I'd just suggested we streak our kid's college graduation. "It's 11 o'clock" she said. Actually it was only 10:30 but apparently we've established hours of operation and time limits somewhere along the line. Duly chastised, I slunk away yet again.

 

LJ, you're right every rejection builds resentment. I was pretty sure it wouldn't take 6 months to see how this is going to turn out and I think I'm going to be right. I really want our last out of the nest again before this gets too deep. Don't want the kid caught in a crossfire and thinking they have to take sides.

 

The only thing I can think of to do right now is to keep trying fill her "love tank" while not setting myself up for anymore rejection. That and start trying to get us into counseling. By the way she's never read Chapman's book. Moved it around a couple of times but never opened it since the first time I asked her to read it.

[moimeme]

IMHO she is using passive-aggressive techniques on you. She won't be the one to break up the marriage - oh, no - because that would mean she did a bad thing. Rather, she'll block every attempt you make to repair things until you finally give up. Then she can play the wronged one 'I never asked for a divorce; I said I was happy'.

 

It's not about you. It's all in her head. Maybe the psych can shoehorn it out, but I think she'll just keep blocking all attempts to fix it because she doesn't want to fix it. She just doesn't want to take responsibility for breaking it, either.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

every rejection builds resentment. I was pretty sure it wouldn't take 6 months to see how this is going to turn out and I think I'm going to be right. I really want our last out of the nest again before this gets too deep. Don't want the kid caught in a crossfire and thinking they have to take sides.

 

The only thing I can think of to do right now is to keep trying fill her "love tank" while not setting myself up for anymore rejection. That and start trying to get us into counseling. By the way she's never read Chapman's book. Moved it around a couple of times but never opened it since the first time I asked her to read it.

 

This is my concern for you.... We can cook along for years, and kind of be "okay" with an unsatisfactory relationship. But once we start really investing in repairing the relationship...and we don't begin to see any return on our investment... Well, the resentment builds up at a much faster rate.

 

If you really need to wait until your last chick leaves the nest before you begin your next phase, then I'd say you have a pretty good overall plan. I just don't want you to take on alot of damage in the meantime by expecting results that you are NOT going to get right now.

 

The fact that your wife hasn't even looked in the book, indicates that she is clueless still in regards to Vesuvius. And to be honest, I don't read her actions....or rather, non-actions as particularly deliberate. Although, I'm sure it must feel that way to you.

 

Rather, I think she's dysfunctional psychologically. You'd be surprised how common it is. You'll get a wealth of information by typing the words "female sexual avoidance" into your browser. Here's one such article: http://www.hisandherhealth.com/articles/Sexual_Health_of_Older_Women.shtml.

 

I think you'll feel alot better about everything right now, if you recognize that there's something going on in her head. It's her problem, and it's not really about you. She is preventing herself from having the close and intimate relationship that would, in actuality, probably make her very happy. And that's sad. It's worthy of your sympathy, when you can get past how hurtful these rejections are to you.

 

Sympathy is a terrific tool for putting away resentments, and accessing your love for your partner. I would highly recommend that you utilize it if you're going to be putting off Phase II....the Confrontation phase.

 

Remember, that you are losing nothing here. Six months is not much time when you compare it to thirty years.

[midlifecrazy]

The good news is I'm got counseling lined up. Don't have an appointment but do know who to contact and how to go about it when I need to.

 

Also have set up Dr. Phil's relationship quiz on my favorite list so I can go right to it. At the opportune time I plan to pull it up and ask Mrs to take it. If I have to I'll tell her it's so I can see how well I'm doing at meeting her needs or something like that. When we see what her score is that might generate some discussion. I'm sure she'll ask me what I scored and I'll tell her the truth. That definitely ought to get us talking. At some point I'll again bring up the subject of counseling. And then we'll see what happens.

 

Good link, LJ. I'd say she has both low desire and aversion disorders as defined in that article.

 

I do think her actions are more psychological then from an intent to hurt me. That still doesn't make me feel a lot better but it does leave room for hope if she cares enough to try. I'll try to have sympathy for her though she seems to have little for me. If I thought she had done this all along just to spite me for some reason, well holy s**t and Adios Pompeii.

[Moose]

Midlife, you're doing a great job.......just wanted to let you know........

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

If I thought she had done this all along just to spite me for some reason, well holy s**t and Adios Pompeii.

 

I'm glad you're keeping your sense of humor, anyway! I really did laugh out loud when I saw that.

 

I'm in agreement with Moose...just wanted you to know that you're doing great!

[midlifecrazy]

Oh Gawd, we talked. She WAS molested as a child. more later ****************FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUK

[Moose]

Ok, well,..........although this is terrible news, it's also a blessing in disguise.....now we know what the main problem is.....this is a breakthrough.......midlife, you are going to have to become her crutch for a while. You love her, so I know you can hold out a little longer to help her through this........

[Bubbles]

You had better give us more later......the poor, poor girl. I can identify with her.

 

Has she ever been couselled? As for myself I have NOT been couselled but somehow managed to control this part of my life and learned to devalue what happened to me as NOT a huge part of my life. It was something that happened to me 4 times when I was a young girl.

 

It has never played a major factor in my sex life although I have warned my partners not to do certain things to me because it creates and un-easiness inside of me. For example, I do not react well to my partner approaching me from behind. This approach freakes me out. It reminds me of the inability to defend myself.

 

You should try to find out from you wife if there are things that you do that remind her of what happened so that you can avoid it. I know you are not doing these things intentionally to hurt or remind her but you need to know all the same.

 

bubbles

[guitarplayer]

ya well I'm still in love with my first love and that was over 20 years ago........WENDY PLEASE CALL ME

 

(289)323-9*** lmaoooooooooo

[midlifecrazy]

OK, it doesn't really matter how we got to the point in the conversation but replying to my comment that she had never really seemed interested in making love she said she thought her problems were due to problems she'd had when she was young.

 

This was something new. She was crying a little. I went over and sat down beside her and ask what she meant. She said she'd never had a normal childhood. I said I knew. She had had to grow up early. Then she told me that she had been molested.

 

When I could speak I asked if it had been her grandfather who you recall if you have been following this, had a history of doing this. She said no. I don't remember if I asked or she just told me but she said it had started when she was about 5. She said there had been no penetration just fondling, and then something like "until I was older" but she didn't go on.

 

I didn't want to press her so I don't know how long this went on, how many times it happened or what if anything else was done. I did ask if it had been a family member and she shook her head no. She did say it wasn't her father and I never would have suspected him. They have always seemed to have a good relationship. I asked if she had ever told anyone and she said no. She also said she didn't want me to tell anyone. I don't count this because no one know who anyone else is. I suggested she might need to get some counseling to deal with this but she said she didn't want to talk to anyone about what happened.

 

I tried to comfort her as best I could and told her I was glad she'd finally told me because it explained so many things. So that's where we're at. This of course changes everything. All ideas of breaking up are gone by the wayside. It's not that she doesn't care about me. It's this cancer that she's had eating away at her all her life that is the problem.

 

But,friends, I need help. I am completely clueless as where to go from here. Obviously she feels horribly ashamed or guilty over what happened even though she was a helpless victim. I can't force her into counseling however badly she needs it. And I don't want to make her feel any worse than she already does. I REALLY can use counseling now myself but how can I explain the problem without telling what was done to my wife? Are there any online resources anyone knows of to help deal with these situations? What about real time support groups for families of abuse vicitims?

 

Suggestions people? I am open to anything.

[Ladyjane14]

Well that does explain some things.

 

While I wouldn't pressure her to talk to anyone about this yet....it's perfectly okay for you to talk to a counselor. By the new HIPPA laws, they are bound to confidentiality. So, rest your mind about that.

 

A good therapist can help you develop stratagies for coping with it, and bear in mind....it is part and parcel with everything else going on between you. To not share it in counseling would be to leave out extremely pertinant information.

 

There's the abuse forum here at LS, where you can gain a little more insight into the emotional aspects of abuse. But I'm at a loss as to other websites, so I'm hopeful that some more people will weigh in.

[Mz. Pixie]

MLC-

 

Hugs, honey, I think I originally had this idea as to why this was going on. I hate it however, that I was right.

 

I do not have a website that I could send you to but I can tell you as a survivor of sexual abuse a little bit of what she might be feeling.

 

If she ever told, and was not believed- then that FOREVER sticks with you. It's extremely hard to tell- extremely. It took me about a year to work up the courage to tell my mother, and then she didn't believe me. I know people can and do lie about this, but I was her child, she knew I wasn't lying. It is quite possible that you are the FIRST person she's ever told. Once you tell it does begin to get a bit easier to talk about.

 

For me, in my marriage- this is so hard to explain in words but I will try. When my husband didn't meet my needs for affection and attention but then always insisted on sex- it was like a form of sexual abuse to me. I know that sounds wierd but that is the way it was on some deep dark level. Now, I really believe that you have tried to meet your wifes needs, especially lately, but I'm just speaking from personal experience. It was like I was being used, just like I had been when I was a child, if that makes sense.

 

Whatever you do (and I'm not saying you will) don't make this about you or about your "territory" being violated. You cannot push her. I believe if you continue to love her then she will eventually tell you the whole story- if she can remember and hasn't blocked it out.

 

She really does need counseling but it will have to be her decision. It is so freeing and I can't begin to explain how that helped me. Assure her it was not her fault, she didn't deserve it, and keep reenforcing that you love her, no matter what. I know you will because you do!

 

When I first went to counseling my counselor asked me how many women out of ten did I think had been sexually abused in one way or the other. I said seven and he said correct- and he said only about 5 out of ten ever tell anyone. It's a epidemic if those are accurate. How sad is that? The stats may be different because that was eight years ago.

 

HUGS to you MLC and your wife. I'm here for ya if you need me.

 

Pix.

[moimeme]

Darkness2light dot org lists a number of support sites and groups. SSSalas dot com also has a list though it seems to be in the UK; but online forums are worldwide, of course. I did a search on forums adults sexually abused and found lots.

[amerikajin]

MLC,

 

Just wanted to say I've got so much respect for you, man. You're a tough one to stick this out and get to the bottom of things.

[midlifecrazy]

Thank you all for your support. We haven't talked about this anymore yet. No opportunity to really. I guess when we do what I really want to say to her is nothing was her fault. She was an innocent helpless victim.

 

To me this like a light just came on. I can see now how it would explain so much that I haven't understood over the years. Her struggles with feeling inferior. The way she let people run over her. Lots of other issues. The whole sex problem thing is suddenly crystal clear.

 

Now I'm feeling some guilt about the sex. I worry that things I've said or done or asked her to do have somehow reminded her of her abuse just like Bubbles and MzP.

 

And as far as sex goes I guess the best thing is to just leave it up to her. Now that I know it isn't just because she doesn't care for me it isn't quite as important anymore. I've thought about telling her if she doesn't want to do it anymore it will be ok, I'll understand. I'll just have to take matters in my own hands when the need arises.

 

Maybe I'll never have my wildest orgiastic fantasies fulfilled after all. But what the hell I've gone this long without knowing the score. At least now I can understand. And maybe I am getting too old for it after all.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

Now I'm feeling some guilt about the sex. I worry that things I've said or done or asked her to do have somehow reminded her of her abuse....

 

And as far as sex goes I guess the best thing is to just leave it up to her. Now that I know it isn't just because she doesn't care for me it isn't quite as important anymore. I've thought about telling her if she doesn't want to do it anymore it will be ok, I'll understand. I'll just have to take matters in my own hands when the need arises.

 

This is WHY the counseling is sooooo important. Because giving up sex altogether is not going to cut it as a solution. It's evading the problem, rather than addressing it. So, the problem remains, unimpeded to continue damaging her....and you too.

 

You BOTH deserve a loving, intimate relationship. Not just for you....but for her too. Sadly, she has no idea what she's missing...what she's been robbed of.

 

Neither one of you did ANYTHING wrong that you should end up paying that kind of penalty. We're talking about rattling around the house as platonic room-mates for the rest of your lives. That's a pretty stiff sentence when you consider that neither of you have committed the crime.

 

You might do well to start counseling on your own to begin with. It would allow you to get an expert opinion on how to proceed, and how to draw her in. And frankly, the guilt that you're feeling is probably natural....but unwarrented. It likewise needs to be addressed.

 

You're a good guy for wanting to make that sacrifice for her. But I think you'd be helping her more in the long run by working together towards healing.

[moimeme]

I have to agree. It's not helping anyone for her to avoid counselling for all these years. She will live the rest of her life frozen in fear of sex and you'll have to suffer because of it - and why? Because she refuses to help herself. It is unfortunate this happened to her, but she has a responsibililty to not foist her victimization on everyone else in her life. If she had any other sort of problem, you would not think it unreasonable to insist that she get help, but because this is about assault, everybody is 'hands off'. This isn't helping her or anyone. She has willingly stayed in the prison her abusers created for her. I really don't think it's fair to make you stay in it with her. It has been more than thirty years, after all!

[Bubbles]

midlifecrazy,

 

Please don't walk around feeling guilty about what you may have done

 

You had absolutly no idea about your wife's issues until now. It is her responsibility to communicate the information to you. You are not a mind reader!

 

The thing that is bothering me about all of this is, she has only recently given you this information and she has been locking you out for a long, long time. It makes me wonder. What happened to open this door?

 

I have been doing my best to stay current with your situation and I just don't get it...the molestation happened when she was a child and yet it has come up on her only recently? Again, what happened to trigger this off? Is there any chance that you can discuss this with a family member that you trust?

 

I know that you love her as I am sure her family knows that also. Is there any chance that someone could help to enlighten you and help save your marriage (not that you are leaving her, just save the openness, communiction and trust)?

 

bubbles

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by Bubbles

What happened to open this door?

 

Maybe his "love campaign" has been working better than he thought. It could be that she's feeling more secure with him. (????)

 

I know it probably sounds weird, but only last year, I told my husband about something that happened to me when I was a teenager....and we'd been married over 20 years by then. I'm not sure why I never told him before.

 

It could be that like alot of bad things that are in the past....we tend to want to forget them and leave them there.

 

Could be it's embarrassment. Sometimes something can happen to you and it's not your fault, but you feel uncomfortable and self-conscious anyway.

Maybe it's not wanting the sympathy and attention, because you'd feel fragile.

 

Or maybe it's just that whatever the old bad memory is, it's become a part of you somehow....something too familiar to pay attention to. You get used to it, and don't really think about what effect it has on your perception today.