dump a bad marriage for an old love?

[moimeme]

josepha

it helps to read the *entire* thread before you post. That way you get the whole story.

[Mz. Pixie]

MLC- how you doin hon??

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

 

Tuesday AM I tried again. This time I told her I thought I was going to go get some counseling. She asked why. I told her because I was depressed. She said I didn't seem depressed. I said I was having a hard time dealing with everything. I wanted to make love to her but was almost afraid to touch her now for fear of how she was really feeling about it. She said she wished now she had never told me about the molestation. I told her it was important she had because I had been having serious doubts about whether we would stay together because before that information it had seemed to me that she just didn't care how I felt.

 

This sounds like really good communicating to me. You were able to express your feelings. She apparently showed a genuine interest in them. You straightened out at least one important miscommunication, and encouraged her to continue sharing openly. A good day's work all-in-all.

 

She said it didn't bother her for me to touch her. Somehow or another we did end up making love. It was nice and a week and a half ahead or our normal schedule.

 

I see this as responding in a positive way to your communications. You expressed a need, and she responded to it. Again, nice work MLC!!!

 

As i wrote that I just recalled, I think Moose said something early on about getting up and not having sex while you're trying to have a serious discussion. That probably would have been the better idea because that was the end of the talk and all I established was that yes I can still make love to her. Baby steps it seems.

 

Baby steps are all you need. Anything more might overwhelm you both. And I don't think that you've lost anything in this exchange if what she was feeling was intimacy for you at the time. In other words, if she was motivated to feelings of closeness by sharing this conversation with you, and wanted to express that...then GREAT!

 

Am I being noble or unrealistic to think that if our sex life were to continue on exactly as it is I can accept it happily and without resentment? I definetly am going for the counseling.

 

I think it might be too early to worry about that. Right now, it REALLY looks like you're getting a positive response, so the situation could continue to improve. If it becomes stagnated, then yes....you'll have to address that question.

 

And I'm glad you're going for counseling. Strike while the iron is hot. I see a spark of interest from her that I didn't see before in your posts. She may be more amenable to joining you in counseling than you realize.

[midlifecrazy]

One thing I forgot to mention, when we were talking Tues AM she said something about how she always felt tense and like she had so much to worry about. This was kind of pitiful but she said because of these feelings she had considered taking up drinking.

 

This would be funny if it wasn't so sad, because a drinker she isn't. She never has drank much and when she has it has always been one or two drinks and it's lights out for her almost literally. It doesn't take much booze at all and she's out for the night.

 

I think I fumbled the ball on this one. I said something like an occasional drink might relax her but I didn't really think that was the answer. I didn't say anything about her getting counseling for her problems. This was a little bit justified though I think since she's been resisting the idea and also didn't seem thrilled that I was talking about going in myself.

 

And speaking of that I have to get referred by my primary care doc. The earliest I could get in to him was the 1st week of May. I'm going to see if I can go ahead and get an appointment lined up with the counselor as soon as possible after that. Maybe after I start she'll try it.

 

When I started this thing some folks (LadyJ, Moose et al) were kind of urging me to give it 6 months. I was chomping at the bit at the time and was figuring to myself maybe 3 months. If a guy can have a biological clock I feel like mine is tick-tick-ticking away. I'm not a spring chicken and I'm getting older by the minute. Fortunately I've been blessed with a relatively youthful looking DNA (at least I hope so). Anyway considering the consequences of a breakup, the progress I hope we've made and the fact that it's already been 6 weeks or so, I think 6 months sounds more realistic to me now. When that rolls around we'll see where we stand.

 

A technical question for you folks who have been on here for a while. Is this thread running too long or strayed too far from the original subject title? Should I just keep this one going or start a different one. Thanks.

[Bubbles]

Midlifecrazy,

 

You guys are making progress.......at least you can say that the line of communication is open. You need to take whatever opportunity is shown to you to get your point across. I really do hope that you do go for councelling. You will make progress with her and she will see and feel that. I know you love your wife.....THAT is very obvious to all of us here.

 

We can continue with this thread no problem. If it becomes too long the moderators on this forum will contact us and advise us that we need to start again......I doubt that will happen this is a good thread. You have made a lot of progress since it's beginning. This is what makes LoveShack, LoveShack. It's all about progress.

 

MLC, are you a night hawk? I noticed that each of your posts are made after midnight.

 

 

bubbles

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

One thing I forgot to mention, when we were talking Tues AM she said something about how she always felt tense and like she had so much to worry about. This was kind of pitiful but she said because of these feelings she had considered taking up drinking.

 

Sounds like she's experiencing some mild anxiety. Could be any number of causes. Her best bet is to see her medical doctor to rule out any physiological problems.

 

There are a number of treatments available, however, most involve drug therapy. Some of those drugs will have sexual side-effects, and her doctor needs to know that her libido is ALREADY depressed in order to make the best treatment plan.

 

I think I fumbled the ball on this one. I said something like an occasional drink might relax her but I didn't really think that was the answer. I didn't say anything about her getting counseling for her problems. This was a little bit justified though I think since she's been resisting the idea and also didn't seem thrilled that I was talking about going in myself.

 

It's possible that she was reaching out to you for help. It's also possible that she was manipulating you for sympathy.

 

I think it's safer to assume the former, just in light of the fact that it's the lesser of two evils. When you consider which side you might prefer to be in the wrong of....it's probably best to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

In other words, if she's truly opening up and reaching out to you for help, and you assume she's only manipulating you....you've REALLY hurt her. But if she's manipulating, and not truly sincere....the truth of it will reveal itself in short order. You lose nothing by being a believer for now.

 

 

And speaking of that I have to get referred by my primary care doc. The earliest I could get in to him was the 1st week of May. I'm going to see if I can go ahead and get an appointment lined up with the counselor as soon as possible after that. Maybe after I start she'll try it.

 

You can call the PCP's office and ask for the referral. You needn't necessarily be seen by the doctor for this. Although, if it's time for your regular check-up, you should keep your appointment anyway. Likewise, you can go ahead and schedule your counseling appointment based on when the referral will be completed by the PCP's office. It sometimes takes several weeks to get on the counselor's schedule. You could shave of some time in the process in this way.

 

When I started this thing some folks (LadyJ, Moose et al) were kind of urging me to give it 6 months. I was chomping at the bit at the time and was figuring to myself maybe 3 months. If a guy can have a biological clock I feel like mine is tick-tick-ticking away. I'm not a spring chicken and I'm getting older by the minute. Fortunately I've been blessed with a relatively youthful looking DNA (at least I hope so). Anyway considering the consequences of a breakup, the progress I hope we've made and the fact that it's already been 6 weeks or so, I think 6 months sounds more realistic to me now. When that rolls around we'll see where we stand.

 

That six months is NOT just for her. It's to protect you as well, to give you some time to resolve the duality in your emotions. If you step back, and read your own posts as if they were written by someone else....you'll probably see the same thing that I see.....a guy who's not too sure which way to go yet.

 

You deserve to be confident in whatever decision you finally make. Giving yourself this time is going to help you do that.

 

A technical question for you folks who have been on here for a while. Is this thread running too long or strayed too far from the original subject title? Should I just keep this one going or start a different one. Thanks.

 

I don't think it's too long, and it seems to be ON TOPIC. That said, perhaps a new thread in one of the other forums might elicit a few more opinions, particularly when you're mulling over a specific problem or incident.

[midlifecrazy]

LadyJ. she has been on meds in the past for depression, anxiety etc. Zoloft. Paxil etc. but she doesnt take anything now. Says she hates the way they make her feel just kind of dead inside. I see the point about the 6 mos. given the way I still feel up in the air about everything.

 

Bubbles due to years of conditioning and a personal bent, I live among the creatures of the night. Yes I am indeed a nighthawk. It's a habit I've been trying to modify since I started the "campaign", but I'll go to bed, she'll fall asleep and I'll just lie there. So eventually I'll get up again for a while until I get tired.

 

I'm confused now that she says she's ok with making love to me, should I start trying again or wait on her to initiate. I began the 'dance of a thousand caresses" this morning but was quickly shut down by her backache and for good measure, headache. I get so many conflicting messages from her.

 

By the way, I don't think this is the case, but if it ever turned out that she made up the story of abuse just to manipulate me, I think that would be the complete, utter and irrevocable end of this relationship.

[Mz. Pixie]

Unless she's been planning this for a while, I doubt she made it up. The symptoms were too gradual.

 

Her previously being on anti depressants rings a bell for this....depression and anxiety are high among people who have suffered with abuse.

 

If she did make it up, well that just pisses me off, because it makes those of us who have been though it look like crazies! I pray that she has not made this up as an excuse just to keep from having sex with her husband!

 

Her saying that she had considered taking up drinking as well hit me square in the heart. A high majority of people with drug and alcohol problems are abuse survivors. When I went to the hospital for the almost breakdown I had- almost every person in there suffered from drug abuse or alcoholism! I was the only one that didn't.

 

It hit me that the only reason why is because I'm extremely tough.

 

I admit though that I have thought that drugs or alcohol might dull the pain.

 

Random things here, MLC.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

By the way, I don't think this is the case, but if it ever turned out that she made up the story of abuse just to manipulate me, I think that would be the complete, utter and irrevocable end of this relationship.

 

I'm sorry. I wasn't being very clear. I didn't mean to suggest that she was making up a story regarding the abuse. I meant the "manipulation" comment in the context of the conversation that you two had about her anxiety.

 

It's possible that if she does begin to get an inkling of Vesuvius simmering on the horizon, that she could be genuinely anxious. It's also possible that she might be jockeying for sympathy in order to evade the problem for a little while longer.

 

My thought was to assume that she's sincere, rather than manipulative.

 

If she's resistant to drug intervention on the anxiety, why not try some relaxation techniques? You know...yoga, meditation, tai chi, etc.

 

It occurs to me that having great sex with your husband might also be a good way to burn off stress.

 

I'm confused now that she says she's ok with making love to me, should I start trying again or wait on her to initiate. I began the 'dance of a thousand caresses" this morning but was quickly shut down by her backache and for good measure, headache. I get so many conflicting messages from her.

 

Initiate sex anytime you want. And try doing it with WORDS instead of putting out signals. Let her learn to trust your hands, so that your touch is recognized by her as comfort...rather than a prelude to your sexual agenda. Then, if she's not up for it, allow her to refuse....and take it gracefully.

 

In the above scenario, you might have given each other a back massage. You can say, right up front that you respect the fact that she doesn't feel well, and that you don't expect intercourse. But by giving her a massage, she becomes accustomed to your touch, and by allowing her to reciprocate, she gets to touch you in a non-threatening kind of way. It's intimate, but not sexual. And if you're having great conversation, listening to a little music maybe....it's a fun and positive interaction.

[Bubbles]

Well now there's a damn good suggestion! Go to the naughty store. They have books and books on sensual massage. I have one and it has taught me a lot about touch and how to touch without feeling like you are being invaded! It's a great ice breaker between couples.

 

bubbles

[midlifecrazy]

Feel like I kind of dropped the ball here for a while. Sort of an interesting week or so. A couple of days after our last intimate session we were at a pharmacy and Mrs wanted to buy a bottle of wine. Maybe after her earlier comment I should have discouraged her but I didn't. Anyway she had a couple of glasses later that night. Well, counseling may still be needed and candy is dandy but liquor is definetly quicker. We had one of the most energetic and erotic times we've had for quite a while. Talk about lowered inhibitions, hoo boy!

 

Then week after the first time, Tuesday AM again, we ended up doing it again. This time after some discussion. I guess I was absentmindedly making some "preliminary" caresses. She again began questioning the "normality" of my sex drive saying I wanted it all the time. I told her that I realized she had a lot of issues that affected things but that her lack of libido wasn't normal in my view. I said that we were just two very different people sexually wise and that I would learn to deal with it. Well now she was wanting to go ahead and I was telling her it wasn't necessary. Anyway we ended up doing it again, so I guess I got "mercy" sex that time.

 

My libido must be getting satiated a little finally, haven't been quite so horny now. I think she just doesn't understand that I NEED it on a regular basis. When I get "caught up" I probably won't seem so oversexed,

 

With all that we haven't talked about the underlying issues anymore. It's almost like ok its out in the open, I know about it and we're not going to discuss it anymore. One thing that's really started bothering me is that I don't know who did that to her or even if they're alive or dead. We've got grandkids. I don't know if there's someone I should be worrying about around them. If anyone harmed them I'd be spending the rest of my life in prison. I think that's something she's going to have to tell me.

 

One more probably pointless item. Oddly enough with the improvement in our relations my long lost dream girl ( remember her from the start of this thread?) came to me in a dream. We were 18 again and walking hand in hand heading toward the barn and thats the way it ended. Hmmm maybe that was Tuesday AM. Geez, cheating in my sleep?!

[amerikajin]

MLC,

 

Once again, your character is awesome. You're a real man. Much respect. Good luck and hope it all works out for you.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

One thing that's really started bothering me is that I don't know who did that to her or even if they're alive or dead. We've got grandkids. I don't know if there's someone I should be worrying about around them. If anyone harmed them I'd be spending the rest of my life in prison. I think that's something she's going to have to tell me.

 

This will probably come out in MC....if y'all ever get there. How's that going, btw? Have you scheduled anything yet?

 

I still think that going for MC could be extremely beneficial for the two of you. You've made some progress, but it will likely stagnate unless you both recognize the need to address the issues.

 

Could be that your dream stems from a certain amount of indecision still on your part. Even though you've committed to trying, you're probably still uncertain of your ability to be successful all on your own. You're unsupported emotionally in your efforts. MC will also help you with that.

 

Also, if you have any reason to believe that you are overly preoccupied with sexual thoughts, you might consider talking to your doctor about it. Sometimes a low-dose of anti-depressant medication can help with that. It can return a raging libido back to NORMAL.

 

I very much doubt if that is the case for you, because sexually you have been limited by your wife's low libido. However, if it's worrying you, it's worth consideration.

 

This is just conjecture on my part, but I think that there are some chemical changes that happen to men at mid-life. It could be that your seratonin is either decreased in quantity, or otherwise unavailable in your system long enough to do it's job. I think that possibly the urge to create the dopamine release in the brain, and thereby get that little quick fix, could possibly play a role in increased libido.

 

I'm no expert, but if you are in any ways concerned....talk to the doctor. Believe me, he's heard it ALL, and you won't shock his tender sensibilities!

[midlifecrazy]

LadyJ I got busy last week and just never got hold of the couselers office. Got a scheduled appt. with my PCP Weds. so planning on talking to him about it since he will have to refer me anyway.

 

No. I don't think I'm "oversexed" in any way, probably just about normal for a guy my age. Like I told Mrs, maybe it seems that way to her but I think it's just because I get it so rarely. Once I've satisfied the desire that's been built up without any release I seem to slow down a bit. It's just like someone who's been starving. They're going to really chow down when they finally get a chance to eat something.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

LadyJ I got busy last week and just never got hold of the couselers office. Got a scheduled appt. with my PCP Weds. so planning on talking to him about it since he will have to refer me anyway.

 

Good news. Just a suggestion, but if it's been awhile between visits, you might jot down some of the things you want to talk to him about. People get like a deer caught in the head-lights when they get back into the exam room.

 

No. I don't think I'm "oversexed" in any way, probably just about normal for a guy my age.

 

Yeah, I didn't think that would apply to you....just thought I'd throw it out there in case it was bugging you. What I've noticed is a trend in men in their early 40's sometimes becoming a bit "obsessed" in response to mild chemical depression. By the length of your relationship, 30 years, I figured you had probably made it through the initial mid-life adjustment which seems to trigger that.

 

I've observed alot of guys at that age who are thrown into a mild depression by the changes in their bodies. Next thing you know....they're knee-deep in porn or extra-marital affairs.

 

I think that so much of our human psychological issues are simply unaddressed physiological issues. My personal theory anyway.....and Lord knows I have PLENTY of personal theories!!!

[midlifecrazy]

Ah well, anyone still following this saga? Not a good week. So down I didn't even speak to my PCP about counseling was feeling that it's almost useless by now at the time. I realize that was a mistake. I need to have some input on the crap I'm going through.

 

Went to hug her the other day not as a come on or anything just being affectionate and the look I saw in her eyes.... I don't know what brought it on I felt like the most repulsive creature on earth in her eyes.

 

Took her to a movie. She didn't like it (neither did I) "How could you pick something like that. I can't beleive we wasted our time and money on that...."yadda yadda yadda on and on. She has the tounge of a shrew.

 

She must be spoiling for a fight or something. Another non-incident really flared up almost instantaneously into something I felt could easliy have become another Valentines day type clash. I stopped it by shutting up and we're still pretty much on non speaking terms right now.

 

I don't know, I guess I've still got the goal of working on this 6 months or so. But it seems like what I figured at first,3 months will tell the tale, is going to be closer to being right. At this point even that,the 1st of June, seems far away. Vesuvius is glowing and rumbling and puffing smoke and it doesn't help that she keeps chucking sticks of dynamite down the funnel.

 

It just doesn't seem like anything I do can get through to her. She just always makes these veiled references to things not lasting or going on this way etc. Maybe despite what she's said she actually DOES want it to end with me being the one to do it. She still has shown no interest on her part to doing anything to improve our relationship.

 

I guess I've GOT to go in for the counseling and take it from there. I don't think the future of this marriage looks too bright.

[moimeme]

The sad fact of life is that some people are so badly damaged by their wretched life experiences that they are rendered unable to be good partners. Many of them resist any sort of help. It's just one more of the ways humans self-destruct. It's not booze or drugs, but it's just as damaging to everyone - even more so since one can partly understand emotional deprivation if someone is addled with chemical addictions.

 

It is terribly unfortunate that she was abused, but that was a long, long time ago and surely she must have seen some news stories, documentaries, talk shows, etc etc about abuse and how people who have been abused need counselling and yet she has not sought help. Nor will she even though her marriage is in jeopardy. Unless you're gunning for sainthood, I don't see how it could be reasonable for you to continue to live this way.

 

I realize this is almost impossible to do, but try not to take her rejection personally. Her problems are all about her. She is wearing a filter which prevents her from seeing and appreciating the real you. It's not her fault, nor is it yours - but it's going to remain firmly in place until/unless she gets help and if she never gets help, IMHO you ought not be the one who suffers because she was mistreated.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by moimeme

I realize this is almost impossible to do, but try not to take her rejection personally. Her problems are all about her. She is wearing a filter which prevents her from seeing and appreciating the real you. It's not her fault, nor is it yours - but it's going to remain firmly in place until/unless she gets help and if she never gets help, IMHO you ought not be the one who suffers because she was mistreated.

 

I'm in agreement.....word for word. The only thing I can add to the above is that we each have our "filters" through which we view the world. Yours has been altered by 30 years of living with this woman, who has at times, made very little effort to meet your needs.

 

That's why the counseling is soooo important. It'll help you to see through your own filter much more clearly. You'll be able to bring the problems into focus. In that way, you can guarantee the accuracy of your own perceptions.

 

Should it come to splitting up, you'll be able to leave the guilt behind, because you'll know that you had truly exhausted all the possibilities. You'll be assured that this wasn't in any way your fault, and that there was nothing you could have done differently. You won't have to lug around the doubt you might have otherwise carried away.

[amerikajin]

Whatever the outcome, you know in your heart you've tried. That being the case, you can take a clear conscience with you. It will hurt like hell if and when you decide to part ways, because you obviously love her. But I agree with what moimeme said - she just might be too badly damaged to be relationship material at this point.

[midlifecrazy]

Yeah that helps a little bit to remind myself that most of this really isn't about me. It's kind of hard to keep that focus in the heat of an argument. When I said I just shut up during the last fight it wasn't just about being a smartass by clamming up. There probably was an element of that at first but I did manage to calm myself on the inside and realize nothing was to be gained by continuing to argue and let it escalate. I just kind of took myself out of it and let her rail at me until she tired of it. I don't think that's passive-aggressive, just practical.

 

I don't think I'm going to be a candidate for sainthood. I already feel cheated and deprived of sex. I can't go on this way and be happy and without resentment. And it's not as if she showers me with love and attention to make up for the lack of physical intimacy. Just the opposite, I don't know which is better, being taken for granted, ignored or bitched at.

 

Overheard her talking to some friends the other day about the goings on of our little Peyton Place. I guess what I got out of it was that if you want to screw someone else, fine, but get a divorce first. I'll keep that in mind along with all the cautionary tales and advice I've gotten here on LS. If we do finally break up it needs to be about us and not me and another woman. I've waited this long, I can wait a little longer and do things the right way.

[Mz. Pixie]

MLC-

 

Still following here- it's funny, Ladyjane just posted about filters- and I posted about that on a thread about dating someone who has been abused earlier- HA!

 

I don't really have anything to add- just letting you know I'm still here and still hoping for the best for you.

[midlifecrazy]

One thing I forgot to mention in my last post. If the way she's acting is about avoiding sex she doesn't need to bother. At this particular point in time I have NO desire at ALL to make love to her. If that's what she's been trying to accomplish she's reached her goal. Not a good sign is it?

[Mz. Pixie]

No, not a very good sign at all-

 

Didn't she tell you that's all you ever thought about??

 

I'm sad...........

[Moose]

May I suggest one more thing.....and make this the final move too. Trial Seperation. There are places you can rent month to month. Maybe with your absence, she'll begin to think on a different level. If things aren't better after a month or 2 of seperation......then I would concur that it's time for you to move on.

[Mz. Pixie]

Along with what Moose is saying-

 

Could you perhaps make a list of things you'd like to see worked on in the marriage in order for you to stay in it?

 

Do the trial separation and then have a discussion after the dust has settled about what your needs are in this marriage.

 

I would at the very least tell her that counseling was a must. If she wouldn't agree to counseling then I'd be seriously thinking about a divorce. It seems that you have tried everything else.

 

She needs to realize that this whole entire marriage is not about her. I understand she's been hurt and such, but you are reaching out to her and she's just not caring........and I know how it feels to be in that situation.