dump a bad marriage for an old love?

[Ladyjane14]

Tell your counselor everything. No need to hint around. Mz. Pixie is right. They are, for the most part, completely bound by law and ethics not to reveal information on a client. The only exceptions being active law enforcement investigation, national security, and such as that.

 

Don't worry about the gender of the counselor. If there's a problem engaging your wife, he'll probably be the first to suggest making a change. And it could even be a better thing for your wife to hear a man say, "That's not okay, the way you were treated".

[Mz. Pixie]

MLC-

 

I'm saying you bring home the books the counselor recommends for her and then tell her that you told the counselor it was for a "friend". That way she feels no one knows it's her!

 

I also take Wellbutrin. When I was on things like Paxil or Lexapro for anxiety I did feel like they supressed my emotions. I've always been quick to cry when I'm upset but when I was on the Paxil, it was just like "WHATEVER", I didn't care. Wellbutrin has been a miracle for me. Paxil supressed my sexual urges but Wellbutrin doesn't. Don't dismiss medication just because you've never taken it. Some people have to have it to function- as a matter of fact my dr. said I need to consider it like blood pressure medicine. I have to have it, just like a diabetic needs their insulin.

 

It could be that as she works through this, meds would be a godsend to her to help her manage. She doesn't always have to take them if they are not helping.

 

You sound so defeated in your last post. I hope that's not the case. I know you were hoping that this could be something that would be fixed quickly so that you could get on the road to marital recovery and it's not going to be. I'm sorry for that and I hope that your IC helps you!

[midlifecrazy]

Well, a begining. Saw the counselor. Not a lot came out of it yet but it wasn't too bad. Didn't have a whole lot of trouble getting into opening up somewhat. Can't say it really felt good but it was different to be unburdening a bit to someone in real time rather then bending the ears (eyes?) of all you good people.

 

He said I did not seem like I was someone who was ready to leave or divorce yet. Also from what I told him he thought that counseling alone might not be enough for MW's depression and that some form of medication might indeed be needed.

 

He suggested I see if she would be interested in coming in for joint counseling and if she wouldn't that I continue to come in by myself.

 

So it turned out pretty much as expected. Guess my next step is to see if she'll go.

[Ladyjane14]

Did your wife know that you were going for this appointment? Was she curious when you got home? Did you and she talk about it at all?

 

When I started counseling on my own, my husband was sooooo curious about what was said. But he didn't want to act like it.

 

Back then, I was pretty mad at him....so I let him stew. That didn't help too much, and I can't say I recommend it.

[midlifecrazy]

She thought it was just a regular doctor appointment. I told her this AM that it was for counseling. She was surprised but didn't really seem too curious. Her depression has been really strong here lately. I sort of steered her into the idea that this was more about depression than our relationship. And I actually think it is at this point.

 

I don't think either of us will ever be happy if she continues on with untreated depression. She at first said she didn't want to take medications because of the way they made her feel. I explained that there were a variety of meds that could tried until hopefully they came up with one that worked for her.

 

Finally I asked her if she would want to go and try talking to the counselor together. She said she didn't care. I'm going to take that as a yes and make an appointment.

 

Yes Mz Pixie, I'm afraid this won't be a quick fix. Treating the depression is probably just the first step. Who knows, it may turn out that she can be happy as a lark and still be one of those people not interested in sex at all. I hope not. This is obviously going to take longer than the 6 months I allowed for at first, but it's a lot more complicated and I did drag my feet a bit.

 

Well if we make it, great. Life may be better than ever before. If we don't at least I gave it my all and maybe she' ll finally be able to deal with her issues and find some degree of peace and happiness at last.

[Mz. Pixie]

God Bless you MLC. You're in my prayers

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

Finally I asked her if she would want to go and try talking to the counselor together. She said she didn't care. I'm going to take that as a yes and make an appointment.

 

Have you had any luck with that yet?

 

Do you think it's possible that her lack of input is something of a signal to you that she's willing to allow you to take charge of the situation?

 

I have to wonder..... You've always described her as a forthright woman. Maybe taking her hands 'off the reins' could be interpreted as an admission of her need for your guidance?

 

What do you think?

[midlifecrazy]

Haven't got it actually set up yet, LadyJ. Trying to work around schedules and such. She hasn't mentioned feeling depressed for a day or 2 and she hasn't seemed quite as "down" but there are several physical symptoms popping up. I don't know if she'll need to see the PCP for those before we go to the counselor. Maybe they're psychosomatic?

 

I do have everything ready as far as referrals etc. All I have to do is call and pick a time. We're thinking about going away on a mini-vacation next week. She's been wanting to go somewhere for awhile and I think it might do us good to get off by ourselves for a bit. We haven't done that in a long time. I don't know if this is the right time to do it but it may be the only time for awhile.

 

She did something that's bugging me a little. She made a major commitment for the both of us without consulting me first. This is going to be a long term thing and take up a lot of our free time. Granted, I would have agreed to it also but it would have been nice if she would have at least talked to me about it first before saying yes. Anyway that's something that's going to have to be taken into account now too.

 

Maybe I'm misreading your use of "forthright" in describing MW. But with all the avoidance and repression or lack of sharing over these many years I don't think that really applies to her. Unless you mean forthright in telling me what she doesn't want to do and what she won't do. In that case you're dead on.

 

As far as the lack of input I think maybe its a combination of things. One is just going along with it to humor me and the other is she's felt so down for so long maybe she's hoping that it will actually work and help her feel better. Whatever the case at this point it sure can't hurt can it?

[Ladyjane14]

I think a mini-vacation is a great idea. Particularly, if you'll be spending time together having some FUN.

 

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

Unless you mean forthright in telling me what she doesn't want to do and what she won't do. In that case you're dead on.

 

Yeah, this is what I had in mind. Your description of her has been of a fairly 'stubborn-at-times' lady. If she's not acting that way now....why not take the lead? Make your next counseling appointment, and do send her to the PCP. If the bit's not stuck firmly in her teeth.....grab the reins!

 

Depression can work both ways. Sometimes it's physiological problems that causes the depression. Sometimes it's chemical depression that causes physiological problems. Encourage her to get it checked out.

 

As long as she's not actively thwarting your efforts, there's nothing stopping you from taking charge. If it bugs her, she'll most likely rouse herself to say something about it....and that would be, at the minimum, an opportunity to talk some issues out.

 

Oh, and when the subject comes up next time regarding the "major committment", let her know in a nice way that you'd like to be asked next time. You don't have to get into an arguement about it. But it's important to establish individual boundaries. If it wasn't worth mentioning to her....it wouldn't have bothered you, right?

[midlifecrazy]

I think Mz Pixie must be able to see the future. A couple of weeks ago she said I sounded defeated but I wasn't feeling that way at the time. Now I am. Really feeling down. It's not just the relationship. There have been several other setbacks recently.

 

I guess its everything together. And the fact that I don't actually believe this MC is going to help. Things will turn out like Outcast predicted. I'll end up stuck here in the same situation with no improvement feeling trapped and miserable and unable to do bring myself to do anything about it.

 

The mini-vacation looms. I'm going to try to suck it up and enjoy myself but I don't know. Honestly I'll be glad when its over so I can get back in to the counselor. It wouldn't matter if she wasn't going. I know I need it myself.

 

I've read partners of depressed people can become depressed themselves. Maybe that's what's happened. MW said today I was in a bad mood. I take that as being grouchy and irritable which I wasn't. Just wasn't too talkative.

She's not the only one allowed to get depressed but I didn't feel like arguing the point. It's so bad I find myself wondering just how good it was that I survived my health "crisis" last year.

 

Sorry just venting here.

[Mz. Pixie]

MLC-

 

I don't want to be right.....

[catb]

Having an affair will solve nothing. If you have really reached the end and want to divorce then do it. Ruining someone else's life because you are miserable will only compound your pain and hurt innocent people. If on the other hand you still have even the smallest hope for your own marriage there is an excellent web site-www.marriagebuilders.com that may help. I was miserable in my own marriage-had an affair and only then did I truly know misery. My problems were still there except now I had the pain and guilt of the affair to add to everything. There are two sides to every story my friend and we don't know your wife's side of things,maybe her needs are not being met either. Check out the web site- i got a few of the books and my marriage is back on track now, maybe it can help you!! Good luck

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

I've read partners of depressed people can become depressed themselves. Maybe that's what's happened.

 

Well, dealing with a depressed person can be REALLY depressing. So, I think there's merit in the idea that people in that situation can become depressed themselves.

 

But...I want to throw something out to you here. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, so you correct me if I'm wrong, okay?

 

From your very first post:

I've made up my mind that she is not going to be the last woman I make love to.

 

Alot has happened since that first post. You've discovered some things that you didn't know before. And you've taken the time to look at your relationship in a new way. You've put ALOT of thought, and effort into the process. And you've challenged yourself to do some things that you didn't know you could do.

 

But now, here you are. And if you are to continue on in the marriage, then the idea of EVER having a new woman in your life must be once and forever put away.

 

That's got to be difficult. At a certain point, when a person has come to accept that the old relationship is over, they're going to start looking ahead....maybe with optimism even....that there can still be something new and exciting before they've reached the end of life's path.

 

The decision to rebuild an old and somewhat stale relationship might seem like the "right" thing to do. It might be the "best" thing to do. But it still requires that you say goodbye to an unrequited dream.

 

You don't have to do anything that you don't want to do. You've got the keys to your own cage, afterall. So, you can elect to divorce your wife and try your luck in the 'single's scene' at any time. Your decision.

 

But thus far, you've made a choice to stick it out for a while longer. What that is going to require of you is obvious.....full 100% dedication to the goal of marriage-building. Anything else is self-defeating. It's hedging your bets. It's half-assed.

 

So, if you go into marriage-building full tilt....the old dream has to die. And your current wife WILL BE "the last woman you ever make love to".

 

Maybe that's something to talk over with your counselor? I don't want to be a "dime-store psychologist" here....but maybe, that could be something that's part of the midlife crisis. I don't know.

[Ladyjane14]

Good to see you Catb!

 

Yours was the FIRST thread that I ever posted to. And that was almost a year ago. I'm REALLY pleased to see in your post that you're doing so well

 

I'm still hanging in there too. So....it's ALL good!

[midlifecrazy]

Kaazinng! LadyJ, I feel like its judgment day and my words have come back to haunt me. As you noted though, that was from my very first post. That was a lot of hurt, anger, resentment and frustration talking talking there.

 

Unfortunately a lot of those feelings still exist even though they've been eased a bit by what I've learned. But I still don't feel she's putting forth much effort to help. Someone early on in this thread came to my defense saying it would be nice if Mrs MLC were putting as much effort into saving this marriage as I was and I've come to feel that's very true.

 

It's funny that you should bring that line up. Just today I was thinking how pissed-off I'm getting that I feel I'm being backed into a corner where I'll end having to do something that I really don't want to do. I would much rather stay with MW if things were better than go through all the turmoil of a divorce and plunging into the dating scene again. Someone else said that I sounded comfortably miserable. That's probably true but the scales are tipping slowly but steadily toward the miserable side.

 

Another thought I had about our relationship today was that about the closest thing I could compare it to would be when you love someone but the other person just wants to be "friends". Even with the occasional "benefit" that's not enough for me. I don't want to be tolerated. I want to be desired. I want passion.

 

I guess what I'm really hoping is that the "new woman" I end up with will be the one I've been married to for over 30 years. How sappy does that sound? I don't know if that will happen. I made the MC appt. today. She tried to back-pedal a bit asking why I wanted her to go.

 

I'm playing the depression card pretty heavily. She asked why I was depressed. I said I didn't know. She said everyone knows why they're depressed. I asked if she still was and she said yes. I asked her why and she hummed and hawed and never answered. I said that's why she needed to go. So I don't know if she'll end up going with me or not. I hope so but I wonder if the counselor will even be able to get anywhere with her or if she'll just clam up. Guess I'll find out.

 

I guess the real dream I have is to love and be loved by someone as I love them. I hope it ends up being MW but if not... that's not a dream I think I'll be able to give up.

 

BTW LJ, nice new look, although I liked the other one too (and this from a guy who as a kid thought Tinkerbell was HOT!)

[Outcast]

I guess the real dream I have is to love and be loved by someone as I love them

 

You share that dream with many people.

[Mz. Pixie]

"I guess the real dream I have is to love and be loved by someone as I love them. I hope it ends up being MW but if not... that's not a dream I think I'll be able to give up"

 

MLC- hugs honey. I was sitting here reading your thread thinking how I know exactly how you feel. I remember how depressed I felt after my grandmother died and the only person in the world who had ever put me first had left this earth. I thought to myself, I have everything you could ever want- a beautiful new home, a nice car, a good job, healthy great kids, wonderful inlaws. But, I didn't have a relationship with my husband, and as George Strait says, "If you ain't loving, then you ain't living"

 

I gave up much sooner than you did. I'm not saying that giving up on my marriage was the best thing, and the affair was certainly not the best thing. But leaving was all I could do. If not I would have had a full nervous breakdown. I had to resign myself to the fact that he would not ever change. Of course, his issues were not because of childhood sexual abuse- had that been the issue I'm not sure what I would have done?

 

You know what? He still hasn't changed. The only thing he is doing differently is spending more time with his kids and having to pay his bills- only because I'm not there to always do that for him. He still goes and does whatever he wants, puts himself first and his new spineless girlfriend drags along with him for all his fun activities (she's perfect for him because she has no needs apparently).

 

When I left him, for me, it was the perfect time. I say that because if I would have left sooner or if I would have left later I would have never have met my new husband. It was a perfect alignment of the planets when we met because we would have never met otherwise. I can only say that since the day I met him in November my life has changed. Even though I was put through the wringer financially and emotionally with the divorce- and I lost almost everything I had- friends- etc and gave up the other- my home, my car that it was all most certainly worth it. Even if sometime down the line he was to ever leave me, it would have all been worth it because I got to love him for a period of time and got to be loved by him.

 

See, I've never been loved like he's loved me. Never been put first- never had my husband dance with me in the living room on a Sunday night for no reason- never had lovemaking so achingly good that I wanted to cry- never connected with anyone like I have with him. People that know me marvel at the change in me. I smile, my eyes sparkle, I giggle anytime his name is mentioned. Funny thing, it's the same for him. That was worth it to me, whatever the price I had to pay. Everyone should love and be loved like that. I'm not saying if you do leave it will be perfect or easy or that you will get what you want. But, I just happened to do it. I took a chance and I won. I hope if you take a chance that you win too.

[midlifecrazy]

MzP I am so happy for you and glad that you finally got what you wanted, needed and deserved. I hope things continue to go great for you.

 

As I recall her story I think Lady J was once about at the place I'm at now. But she managed to get things turned around within her marriage before it was too late. I hope I can do that. I don't know, maybe MW has been so traumatized that she'll never be able to break out of her shell.

 

I told her when we were going together that she was too good for me. I think she took it the wrong way. What I meant was that I was the hoodlum over-sexed boy you girl's mothers always warned you about. She on the other hand was above all that nastiness. So far I've been right.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

As I recall her story I think Lady J was once about at the place I'm at now. But she managed to get things turned around within her marriage before it was too late. I hope I can do that. I don't know, maybe MW has been so traumatized that she'll never be able to break out of her shell.

 

Yeah, you're right. My marriage got really bad. It was, for all intents and purposes, an emotional divorce. In which we aped the "partnership" of marriage, but did NOT feel it in our hearts. We were adversaries, sitting on a powder keg really, in that we had all but stopped seeing to one another's needs.

 

A conflict-avoiding male is a whole new animal from my particular perspective. That's not my experience.

 

I'm the one who walked on the egg-shells in this house. Not all the time, mind you. He'd launch off 4 or 5 good verbal assaults before he'd see a counter-strike. By and large, I'm a peace-lover.

 

But I think perhaps there comes a time when a person has to decide "enough is enough". It took a crisis in our marriage to get there. It became 'make-it-or-break-it' time.

 

And we took it to the wall.

 

I was DONE. I'd made my decision. I was tired of dealing with it. There was NO WAY I was going to change my mind. I was bent on divorce.

 

Maybe it's in letting something go, that you can finally see the value in it. I don't know. And I'm really not sure if it was because I, myself, had let it go, or if it was because my husband could finally see that there were no opportunities left for him where I was concerned. Maybe it was both of those things.

 

But I do know that having taken that moment to look into the crystal ball and really see what life would be without each other..... well, it changed BOTH of our minds.

 

I don't think you're quite there yet. And I think there's still time to work in counseling to see what you can accomplish. Your greatest chance for success in this is to go at it with 100% conviction. Stretch to your limits; be the best person, the best husband, that you can be.

 

But when push comes to shove, and BEFORE you commit yourself to a life of comfortable misery, "taking it to the wall" is something to think about.

 

I want to be desired. I want passion.

 

That's all my husband really wanted too. I'm very lucky that I finally got into a state of mind where I could both perceive and accept that.

 

It changed EVERYTHING.

 

Maybe you two will get there without risking it all. I hope so. But maybe, at some point, you'll have to roll the dice. Let it go, and see if it comes back.

[midlifecrazy]

Well the mini-vacation is now history. Certainly didn't turn out to be a "romantic" getaway. Within 10 minutes of arriving at our destination MW decided one of the locals had been less than cordial to her. I don't know, I was outside. Anyway that set the tone for the rest of that day. I think she wanted to say let's turn around and go home but realized how off the wall that would be.

 

Wouldn't say where she wanted to eat. Wanted me to decide. Then when I suggested something, turned her nose up at it. Finally found southing that was ok with her. And that's all we did. She didn't want to try any other activities that day.

 

Couldn't get her out of the hotel until noon the next day. We did do a few things. There were a lot more things we looked at and talked about but she decided she didn't want to do. I did a couple of things myself because she didn't want to go with me.

 

She seemed to enjoy what we did do but just wasn't willing to let herself go and have a good time. By the third day she was ready to go home and I was willing because I was tired of trying and getting shot down on everything.

 

Of course she never wants to go back and wonders why I ever chose that place, insinuating that everything's my fault. Truth is I merely mentioned it as a possibility and shes the one who took the ball and ran with it. That's not the way she remembers it though, but being this close to going to MC I chose not to argue about it.

 

Anyway during a long 6 hour drive home I don't think she spoke over 20 or 30 words. I eventually got tired of talking to myself and shut up too. I don't think she was mad or anything. I don't know what she was. All I know is even when she seemed to be having fun, somehow she seemed miserable. I guess its the depression. Is that considered a mental illness? Because it occurred to me that she really does seem mentally ill somehow.

 

Yeah Ladyj, I guess I'm not yet at the point you were. I'm still struggling with the decision. The fact that she may not be totally responsible for her actions really complicates things. I hope MC can help us sort all this out.

[Outcast]

Is that considered a mental illness?

 

If it's clinical, yes. Is your MC a psychologist?

[Ladyjane14]

Well, I'm sorry to hear that your vacation didn't go very well.

 

Outcast is exactly right....clinical depression is classified as a mental illness. Sometimes it's physiological in nature. The chemical balance of the brain is affected due to other changes in the body

 

Here's an article for you:

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/publicat/depression.cfm#ptdep3

 

 

Depression is not always manifested as "Major Depression" which is often debilitating as you will notice.

 

Anyway, I'm NOT a psychologist, so I'm VERY glad that you're seeing one.

 

I'm wondering what your reaction was to her lack of enthusiasm during the trip. And I do hope that you'll be able to delve into the matter in detail when you get to your next counseling session. I'm thinking that analysis on this particular example of your interactions could be useful.

 

For one thing, it's current and displays your marital communications today. For another, it illustrates how out of touch your wife is with meeting your most basic needs; this time for simple companionship. And possibly it also paints a picture of your tendancy to avoid confrontation in dealing with her. (????)

 

I hope you'll give us a post and let us know how it goes.

[midlifecrazy]

Outcast, yes the MC is a psychologist.

 

Lady J, That was a good link. MW has almost every symptom listed for depression. Surprisingly,or maybe not, I have quite a few too. Although it doesn't seem as if it should be considered depression if you can pinpoint a definite cause and effect. I mean if bad things happen you're bound to feel bad aren't you? Like losing your money in the stock market or losing your job or getting cancer etc.

 

As far as my reaction about the trip, I'm a bit disappointed but not very surprised about the way it went. I feel sorry for her that she can't seem to enjoy life and discouraged about the chances she ever will. I guess there may be some irritation at her too that even though I don't think she can help it I get so tired of dealing with it all the time. The reason I think I'm trying for the present to avoid much of a confrontation with her is I'm afraid if I allow one to really get going I think it will go nuclear, like the Valentine's day incident ( I even mentioned that one to the counselor).

 

I'm not ready for that yet because if we get that far, chances are this time we'll go all the way and one of us will end up walking out the door for good. Before that happens I want to make sure I've given her and us every possible chance. So you're right LJ, I'm not yet where you were. Yet.

[midlifecrazy]

Well the MC turned out to be a complete and utter fiasco. MW basically curled up into a defensive ball and wouldn't participate very much. She acted like she had no clue what we were doing there.

 

The doc tried to draw her out a bit but she mostly gave monosyllable replies. When he asked me what brought us there I said the most immediate thing I was concerned about was her depression. At first she acted like I was nuts but she finally admitted that she had been telling she was depressed.

 

We batted stuff around a bit and really got nowhere. He said if there was anything he could do for us in the future to give him a call.

 

So that's over. She hated the experience and said she just wouldn't tell me about things anymore. I know some of you are going to say find another counselor. That's not going to happen. For one thing, around here those kind of resources are very limited. And the other thing is I'm not going to put myself through this again. If we ever end up in MC again its going to be because MW wants to and has made the arrangements herself.

 

So what happens now? Whatever it is, we're on our own. I'm going to get a little distance from today and then I think we're going to have to have a frank and detailed discussion about our sex life (yes I've said it again). But there's no getting around it. That IS the big issue for me.

 

I'm not going to make demands because I don't want her doing anything she doesn't want to do willingly or happily. However I do have needs that aren't being met and expectations that sometime they will be. If she decides can't or won't meet this needs and has no interest in trying, we'll have to figure out what to do. I think I've narrowed down the possibilities from the earlier ones I listed. Assuming the worst, I don't think I can condemn myself to spending the rest of my life in frustration and desperate misery. So either we'll break up or come to an arrangement where I'll leave her alone and get my needs met outside our marriage. I'm not going to sneak around behind her back and have an affair.

[Mz. Pixie]

MLC-

 

So sorry the counseling wasn't what you thought it was. Keep in mind that everything cannot be solved in one session. I truly believe it would take more than several to get your wife to open up a bit. I wish that you wouldn't give up- that you would at least continue to go, and encourage her to go.

 

Can't this woman see that she's losing someone who truly loves her??

 

One thing that popped into my mind with your post. There is a dangerous aspect of you having your needs met outside of the marriage. First of all, you're starved, completely and utterly starved for affection, attention and sex. Anyone that you meet and start sleeping with or whatever, unless it's a paid professional ( ) is going to just rock your world. That is because you've been without that for so long. I don't think that it will be enough for you. You will want more and more of what you haven't been getting and there you go, you'll be leaving her anyway. You might fall in love. The man that I think you are, from our conversations over these last few months, you will not be satisfied with just getting your physical needs met. This is not about getting a tingle, it's about the fact that you long for a connection! I know, because that is what happened with me. I had a little taste of what COULD be and it just wasn't enough for me. I fully thought I could be one of those women who could have affairs, not get emotionally attached to that person and carry on for years and years that way. WRONG. I didn't get attached to the OM, but I could see how it would be possible for me to do that, and it scared the heck out of me. That's why I decided to end my marriage. I also didn't have it in me to be that deceptive and continually unfaithful. I'll probably have guilt for years and years about the two times I was in the first place, much less carry on for years and years. I was just so high with the attention and affection I was getting that I hadn't had in so long!

 

You're so hoping that a magic bullet will hit her and you will get everything that you want from her or get permission to get what you want outside of the marriage. I don't think that's what will satisfy you, you're too honorable for that.

You don't want to upset everyone's apple cart by leaving and you're hoping there is a way around that. I'm not sure that there is. Just my .02 dearheart. Please consider what I've said.