dump a bad marriage for an old love?

[midlifecrazy]

Well I'll post another one on here since it almost feels like I am back in the place I was when I started this months ago. The love campaign has failed. I've had no contact physically with Mrs MLC for nearly a month. And I don't seem to really care. The truth is I do not feel attracted to her at all anymore. The neglect, rejections, indifference and harsh words have finally taken their toll I guess. I just hope it hasn't left me impotent although if she were to make a move on me now, that might not be so bad.

 

Haven't yet done any MC/IC. Don't know if there's anything left here to salvage or if I even care to try. Haven't tried your idea yet either, Bubbles.

 

So what am I gonna do? I don't know. I feel like I'm just sitting here waiting for the volcano to blow. Maybe it I get too tired of waiting I'll hike up the side and chuck a stick of dynamite down the funnel. And I know what that could be.

 

Dream Girl is still flitting around the edges of my world with a curious consistency. For awhile I was trying to avoid her but I found myself missing the hope she signifies. So I started looking for her again and sure enough she's still out there. It's only a matter of time before we come together. Then what happens, happens. Since that relationship came before my marriage it would seem almost fitting somehow, if it were the cause of it ending.

 

And if not her, then someone else. I know, I'll be a cheater but I've been pushed into it and besides, payback's a bitch.

[Outcast]

What is stopping you from divorce? Why do you stay? Are you afraid? Because you can't allow yourself to chicken out of life. It's time to face facts and life. Being alone won't kill you and it is far preferable to turning into a lying, betraying deceiver.

 

It takes guts to change your life. Have you got them?

[midlifecrazy]

I guess maybe I'm looking at an affair as something like a step off the cliff to start an irreversible process toward divorce. Once it's done there's no going back. Been told on here many times that its a bad idea. And I know it is. But I need to do something.

 

Do I have the guts to change my life. Haven't had so far. Guess I'm still trying to screw myself up to the sticking point.

 

I did a lot of thinking last night and decided I do at least need to give Mrs MLC one last chance to go to MC. Who knows maybe he might tell us to go ahead and split up. Or maybe he might be a miracle worker and help us bring this marriage back to life.

[Outcast]

Don't take the coward's way out. You'll hate yourself. Give MC a try - you're right; maybe the MC will give you the 'permission' you seem to need to end this disaster.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

I guess maybe I'm looking at an affair as something like a step off the cliff to start an irreversible process toward divorce. Once it's done there's no going back. Been told on here many times that its a bad idea. And I know it is. But I need to do something.

 

Yes, you do need to do something. I'm not the only one here who has told you MANY times that you need to get involved in some counseling, either IC or MC. You've let ALOT of time go by....and for the most part....you're still spinning your wheels.

 

You've had the keys to your own cage, all these thirty years. But you're so conflicted about what it is exactly that you want and need....you've never allowed yourself to use them.

 

I don't blame you a bit for that either. I, myself, would be extremely hesitant to make a decision that couldn't be undone. So, I DO understand how difficult it is for you.

 

Do I have the guts to change my life. Haven't had so far. Guess I'm still trying to screw myself up to the sticking point.

 

This isn't about "guts". It's about optimism. See, for folks who generally have an optimistic attitude, there's always another option. There's always a bit of room to tweak up the circumstances around you, and provide yourself with something to work with...or something you can at least live with.

 

It's more often the pessimist who runs out of hope and makes the difficult choices with ease. So, please don't be down on yourself for being "gutless".

 

A good counselor will help you sooooo much to sort through all that. What CAN in reality be tweaked up and changed will be sorted out from that which is impossible to address. In this way, your ability to make decisions regarding the marriage will be clarified.

 

I did a lot of thinking last night and decided I do at least need to give Mrs MLC one last chance to go to MC. Who knows maybe he might tell us to go ahead and split up. Or maybe he might be a miracle worker and help us bring this marriage back to life.

 

Get someone that YOU are comfortable with. YOU make the choice. YOU make the appointment. Start out from the beginning with an attitude of "this is about ME, and MY happiness". She'll just have to step up to the plate at that point....and devil take the hindmost!

 

Bear in mind that sometimes you'll have to interview more than one counselor before finding a good match. Don't be discouraged if you don't like the first guy you meet.

 

When you are going to counseling, and Mrs MLC knows that you are there discussing your marriage, and working on making decisions regarding it.....I think, she'll FINALLY see the smoke rising from Vesuvius.

[midlifecrazy]

Yeah, LadyJ, you're right again. One of my favorite songs by the Eagles is "Already Gone". The line in it about "how often people spend their lives in chains and never even realize they have the key" rings so true to me. All I have to do is SOMETHING!

 

I appreciate the views on gutless vs optimistic. I would prefer to think of myself as optimistic, perhaps blindly so. Kind of like " Well the Titantic's going down, but the water hasn't reached me yet so everything's just ducky".

 

I haven't really been trying to initiate sex with Mrs for awhile so I thought last night I would just see what would happen. Got shot down and shut down again of course. Wasn't any more than I was expecting. Like poking something to see if it's still dead. And it did provide a little more impetus do do SOMETHING.

 

Seems as if I'm a few weeks behind schedule of where I thought I'd be now. I'm going to approach Mrs this week about MC. She may think every thing is fine but God knows I have plenty of reasons. I think we're the king and queen of avoidance. Anyway I have a doc appt. Fri. and if she won't agree I guess I can get a referral for myself then.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

I'm going to approach Mrs this week about MC. She may think every thing is fine but God knows I have plenty of reasons. I think we're the king and queen of avoidance. Anyway I have a doc appt. Fri. and if she won't agree I guess I can get a referral for myself then.

 

Maybe you could post a preliminary version of what you'd like to say to her? It might help you build confidence for the upcoming confrontation to elicit some input here.

 

Just a thought.

 

You needn't necessarily get a referral from your doctor regarding counseling. Call your member services number on your insurance card. Some plans DO require referral; most don't. You'll feel alot more confident knowing the details of your insurance going in.

[midlifecrazy]

Well I thought it might go something like this (I'll just use shorthand for what I think Mrs MLC's responses might be)

 

me "What would you think about us seeing about getting some MC?"

 

her "WHY!!!?'

 

me "Because you say you're happy but you don't act like it. Because you say you love me but sometimes with your looks and words it seems as if you can barely stand me".

 

her " I AM happy. You are over-sensitive and imagining things. You are the one with a problem"

 

me "Yes I have a problem but I think its OUR problem not just mine. I'm trying my best to fix it but I can't do it alone. Will you go?"

 

If she says yes, great. We'll go from there. If she still says no, I don't think I want to issue that final ultimatum that was mentioned a while back but how about this?

 

"Then what will you do if I end up having an affair because that's what I'm afraid is going to happen if we keep on going the way we are"

 

Or is that too much of a threat? She'd probably just say "Go ahead divorce me and find someone you want then"

[midlifecrazy]

Maybe scatch that comment about having an affair and say something like this

 

" Unless we do something I'm afraid we're going to end up having to go our own seperate ways"

 

Better? Kind of a pre-final ultimatum. Of course her response may end up being the same.

[Outcast]

I think you're trapped. I think you are never going to leave or change. I think you'll likely just stick with the status quo. Your idea of having an affair sounds like a passive-aggressive way to get her to end the relationship because you can't bring yourself to do so. Definitely see a counselor - with or without her.

[Ladyjane14]

I think you might want to be a bit more direct and confrontive. Tell her in specifics what it is that you have as a goal. Don't ask her permission. Tell her what you want.

 

Also, perhaps you could describe your emotions in a more detailed way. Women have a fairly large emotional palette in qualifying emotions. Use it. You'll get ALOT more milage out of "I feel lonely" rather than "I'm unhappy". She'll identify with it more readily.

 

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

Well I thought it might go something like this (I'll just use shorthand for what I think Mrs MLC's responses might be)

 

me "What would you think about us seeing about getting some MC?"

 

"I would like for the two of us to seek couples counseling regarding our marriage."

 

her "WHY!!!?'

 

me "Because you say you're happy but you don't act like it. Because you say you love me but sometimes with your looks and words it seems as if you can barely stand me".

 

Try not to put words in her mouth regarding her feelings. Concentrate instead on describing yours.

 

"For some time now, I have been concerned that you and I are drifting apart. I feel lonely, and disconnected from you. I had thought of our marriage as a partnership, a union.....with you and I TOGETHER at the nucleus of our family. These days, I feel I am on the periphery of our family life.

 

I have tried many times to describe my feelings to you, and I feel that I have failed to make you understand my feelings and my needs. I would prefer to think that I have failed to communicate all this to you, rather than to think that perhaps you just don't care anymore.

 

But I have to recognize that as a possibility as well. You don't seem to have the same need for closeness and companionship that I do. And I don't feel like I'm an important person in your life anymore. You continue to tell me that you love me....but I can't FEEL it."

 

her " I AM happy. You are over-sensitive and imagining things. You are the one with a problem"

 

me "Yes I have a problem but I think its OUR problem not just mine. I'm trying my best to fix it but I can't do it alone. Will you go?"

 

Very good. 'Our Marriage = Our Problem'. Not just your problem. Don't lose sight of that.

 

She's going to bring up your sex life at some point in the conversation. She'll be convinced that EVERY problem you have with her leads back to that. Don't buy into it. Be prepared to deal with it as ONE aspect of the relationship. It's a symptom, not a cause.

 

"Yes, sex IS important to me. It's one aspect of our relationship, not all of it however. I will not deny that I feel a greater emotional closeness to you when our sex-life is active. I feel that my importance in your life is validated when YOU want to be close and intimate with me.

 

Let's face it, if it was just about having an orgasm....I could do that for myself. It means more to me than that, and one of the reasons that I want to go to counseling is so that I can find a way to communicate ALL these things to you."

 

If she says yes, great. We'll go from there. If she still says no, I don't think I want to issue that final ultimatum that was mentioned a while back but how about this?

 

"Then what will you do if I end up having an affair because that's what I'm afraid is going to happen if we keep on going the way we are"

 

Or is that too much of a threat? She'd probably just say "Go ahead divorce me and find someone you want then"

 

Leave out the ultimatums on this inital salvo. Do tell her that you intend to pursue the counseling on your own, and you will go without her if necessary. And do tell her that your perception of her interest in improving the relationship is colored by her non-compliance.

 

Then, go on to counseling. Your councelor will help you find ways to deal with her after you get there.

[midlifecrazy]

Well crap, I had nice long well thought out and written reply to both you LJ and Outcast, and then I lost it before it got posted. Anyway LJ thanks for all the pointers. I appreciate it. Wish me luck.

[midlifecrazy]

Feels like giant steps after all this time. We had the MC talk. Thank God for the Pat Croce show. They were showing a follow up to an earlier show I think I mentioned once before. It was the one where a couple broke up after 30 years of marriage. While it was on I told Mrs that I thought we should get some MC.

 

She of course asked why. I told her what I thought about her not being happy even though she said she was and that I didn't feel loved even though she said she loved me.

 

LJ, she did indeed try to link it all back to my dissatisfaction with our sex life. I managed to deflect it. That morning I guess she had given me the "come on" signal ( a pat on the shoulder) and I hadn't reacted. I thought it might have been but I wasn't sure and of course the phone rang and she got up to answer it and get into a long conversation. I just got up and went about my normal business.

 

The conversation didn't go exactly as I predicted or you outlined, LJ. But at least we're talking. She seemed to think counseling would involve going to a pastor, etc. I told her that wasn't what I had in mind at all. In the end she didn't agree but neither did she say no.

 

She started getting teary-eyed and saying she really did love me and that everything was her fault. I don't know if it was the right way to handle things but I was trying to comfort her and we did end up making love.

 

The other good news is that I finally took the plunge and have an appointment set up for counseling next week. Haven't told Mrs about it yet as this first one is just for IC. I want to talk to the guy and see what I think of him.

 

I get the feeling that Mrs thinks everything is ok now since we made love. Crisis averted for another couple of months until we have to do IT again. I hate to see her hurt but now that I've got things moving a little bit I have keep going.

 

Outcast, I've felt trapped for a long time. Now I finally feel like I'm doing something to change that. I hope the change will be greater satitsfaction in my marriage. If that doesn't work out and I decide to stay and be faithful I hope it can be with open acceptance and without resentment over what I feel I'm being denied. And that, my friend, is a very, very tall order.

[Outcast]

Glad you've taken that step. You will feel much better when this is finally resolved one way or the other.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

.....I finally took the plunge and have an appointment set up for counseling next week.

 

Good news. Don't forget to post and let us know how it went for you.

[midlifecrazy]

The probable outcomes of my situation I see as these;

 

1 Nothing really changes. I stay with her feeling, frustrated, neglected resentful

until I finally die a bitter,old man ( a la Outcast's scenario)

 

2 Mrs MLC joins me in MC. We have a miraculous breakthrough and develop a

great, vibrant and fulfilling for both of us sexual relationship that overflows

intimacy throughout our marriage.

 

3 She resists all attempts at repairing our relationship until we finally end in

divorce.

 

4 Nothing changes between us. We stay together and I secretly go outside our

marriage for sex.

 

5 As in number 4, but she gives me permission to screw around, glad to be

relieved of the burden.

 

6 Like number 1, but IC helps me deal with my negative feelings and I am more

or less content.

 

I'm sorry but the way she is and has been, I'd have to put my money on #3. I can't see me being able to do 1 or 6. I feel I've already put up with far too much. Number 2 is the ideal outcome but highly unlikely, I'm afraid. Number 4 would eventually lead back to 3 probably and #5 I really can't see her doing.

 

Anyone else have thoughts on it?

[Outcast]

Or 7 - you decide you've had it and initiate the divorce. Are you this reluctant to initiate definitive actions in other aspects of your life? Do you have problems making other decisions?

[midlifecrazy]

Actually, 7 is 3. Maybe I sounded ambiguous, but if we divorce I'm 99% sure it will be me who files.

[Ladyjane14]

Your first session of MC is coming up soon, isn't it?

 

Try not to worry yourself too much over it. Things will work out....one way or the other. Time will tell. The hard part is sometimes just taking that first step.

 

I'm really proud, on your behalf, that you're trying this. I think that no matter how things eventually turn out, you'll be glad you did. You'll always have the satisfaction of knowing that you did all you could.

[midlifecrazy]

Thanks LadyJ, It's been a long trip getting to this point, but I'm finally here. Guess I'm just trying to think ahead. I can't believe that Mrs MLC is oblivious to the fact that something is up. I mean from what I've posted on here about our interactions it should be pretty plain to her, shouldn't it? I think it must just be easier for her to crawl back into her shell of denial than to try to deal with the situation.

 

I've been thinking again about asking her what she would do if I had an affair to satisfy my sexual needs that she chooses not to. Her "No, because I don't want to" while valid I guess, has worn too thin for me. I don't want her doing anything she doesn't want but I don't think I'll want to stay with someone who can't, for whatever reason, desire me every bit as much as I do her.

 

When I said "forsaking all others" I think there was an implied concept that others wouldn't be needed because we would mutually see to each others needs as much as possible. She hasn't kept up her end of the bargain.

 

But I'm this close to IC so I should probably wait on any further serious discussions I guess.

[midlifecrazy]

OK, any doubts I had that she was molested are gone. They had been fueled a little bit as recently as last week. MW, her sister and our daughter were talking and the subject of what her mother had gone through came up.

 

Later MW told me that although she thought she had told her before daughter said this was the first she'd heard of it. She also told her that he had tried to touch her. She told me that she wished she hadn't told daughter about that now. I said there were things she hadn't told me such as who had molested her. She said she wasn't going to tell me that. I asked if it had been her uncle (her mothers brother). She said she would have killed him if he tried anything. Enter the doubt.

 

Fast forward to this AM. She said she was feeling very depressed. I asked why. She again said she wished she hadn't told daughter. That she was afraid daughter now felt she was dirty somehow. I assured her she didn't and there was nothing for her to feel guilty about etc., etc..

 

She said she had been thinking of leaving, that everyone would be better off if she was gone. I did my best to try to make her feel better but I don't think it did much good. I told her how much everyone loved her and needed her. She was crying during all this. I think I said something about getting her some help in dealing with all this.

 

She said something last week about how she wished things were over or would end, something like that. It's obvious to me that she is in a deep depression and probably has been most of her life. It's amazing that she's functioned as well as she has.

 

I know I'm not getting the full story of what she's been through. She told daughter her GF either had fondled her breast or had tried to. All she ever told me was that he had tried to run his hand up her knee. So its just bits and pieces at a time she's revealing. I said I was concerned about kids and asked if person who had molested her was still alive. She said no.

 

Clearly she needs professional help. I don't know how to approach it exactly. She kind of swore me to secrecy when she told me about the molestation. I guess just go in for my IC and hint around about it without actually saying it?

 

 

I hope I can get her to go for counseling. I don't know what I'll do if she doesn't.

The way she looked, so sad, hopeless and helpless. There's no way I can leave her now or hurt her by cheating on her. I guess I do love her, I'm friggin' tearing up myself. Damn it, damn it, damn it.

[Mz. Pixie]

Okay, now we are beginning to get somewhere. Little bits of details are coming out....... this is good, although for a while it may cause depression and anxiety- in the long run it will be the best for her. I'm throwing out random thoughts here, so if I'm not making sense, PM me and I'll clarify.

 

Yes, she could be depressed. It's obvious that she's feeling some self loathing right now, which is easy to do. It's very hard to tell someone the first time but it gets easier as you go. To be honest, my new husband doesn't know the full details of my abuse, only that it happened and that it wasn't full intercourse.

 

When you see your IC, it's not betraying her trust to tell the therapist. They are sworn to secrecy and actually, this is YOUR issue as well. You need to work through how you're feeling about this and what it's doing to your marriage.

 

I do see however if the abuse was extensive (and the details are just now trickling out) and she feels the focus of your marriage is on sex, how she would feel a little abused by that. That is the way I would feel when my exh would just say we had no problems, all we needed was to have more sex. I do not feel that you are doing this, but in fact, your needs haven't been met in so long you're past frustration level.

 

In talking to her, I'd still insist on counseling. Tell her that you can see what it's doing to her- don't mention you or your sex life and how that she needs that to figure out what's going on and feel better. It really is the only thing that will make it better.

 

With me, and I know as well with others who have been through trauma (Blind Otter is a great source on this subject) there is a pushing away reflex. Once you feel that someone is in too close you automatically want to push them away. You want to hurt them or keep them at a distance because when someone gets close to you they can hurt you. I've done that my entire life and haven't let others in as I should because I'd been hurt. Perhaps she's experiencing this? Even now, in this wonderful marriage I have sometimes I almost panic thinking that I have to get away from this- it's much too intimate and requires too much of me. Of course that's not true but I do have to fight against that.

 

MLC- I hate this for you in such a bad way. I still do not feel that the abuse is a reason to neglect your marriage, no matter what. I believe that you've shown her love and with your tank on empty it's going to be hard to stay the course if she doesn't go to therapy. I pray you can convince her. What are your thoughts on getting the therapist to recommend some books for her and then bringing them home to her?? You could tell her you asked for a friend......

[midlifecrazy]

I don't know if she'd read any books at this point, Ms P. I don't know if you call it denial or repression or what but after 35 years she's just now opening up a little about this and having a hard time doing it. I too hope I can get her to go to counseling. I don't think she needs meds or anti-depressants now to deaden her feelings. She needs to come to grip with the fact she was a helpless and betrayed victim who wasn't at fault and bears no guilt at for what happened.

 

I try to tell her this, but I think its like I'm just her hubby, what do I know. I think she would probably do better with a woman counselor and the person I'm going to see is male. I guess I'll just have to play things by ear for awhile.

 

As for me I hope IC will help me deal with my feelings and be able to help her too.

[Outcast]

Meds and anti-depressants aren't there to 'deaden feelings'. They're there to stop excessive feelings (in this case, of misery) from stopping someone from living.

[midlifecrazy]

She's tried them before and that's the way she says they make her feel, dead to everything. She hated them. But maybe they have something better now.