dump a bad marriage for an old love?

[midlifecrazy]

and probably not viable either. But with since MW is repulsed by my most basic needs, it seems like the last best hope of avoiding what appears to be becoming inevitable. The whole idea is probably just another example of avoidance on my part, a delaying tactic to put off something that I know will be a terrible and life altering event most likely beyond anything I've ever experienced. And I suppose there's an element of I still feel like I'm trying to save her from herself, also. Ever the 'good guy", ever the hero.

 

As I see it the only other option I have is to sit down,shut up and go sit in the corner like little Jack Horner taking care of my own needs whenever I had to, and in the immortal words of Frank Barrone, a sage for the ages, await "the sweet release of death" No thanks, I've already ruled this one out.

 

I guess I'm just kind of talking myself through this here. Knowing the way MW feels about making love to me, that it's just an unpleasant,distasteful duty to her, well, I just can't go on with it anymore. And I actually do feel no desire for her anymore. How could I?

 

LadyJ says don't take sexual rejection as a personal rejection but that's such a big part of who I am I don't know how to do that. And I don't think I want to. That part has been denied for so long it cannot be contained for much longer.

 

If only Mrs MLC could have offered at least a glimmer of hope, a slight indication that she knew what it was like for me, cared about it and was at least willing to try to make things better. If only, if only...

 

And then I run into DG. If anyone ever had any questions as to why affairs happen, there's the recipe. Oh, and technically, I've never had my cake. I just got a few crumbs from the floor that fell off the table ocassionally.

[Ladyjane14]

LadyJ, one thing I noticed in your posts, you've never addressed the subject of HER infidelity.

 

Sorry kiddo. I never saw that as a factor.

 

It was a long time ago, and you made to decision to continue on in the marriage. You can't withdraw forgiveness that was given something like two decades ago. If her infidelity was a continuing factor in your emotional response to her....it should have been dealt with waaaayyy before now.

 

I think you're reaching here.

 

Clearly, what you want....is a close, intimate relationship with someone who can be a true partner to you. Your choices are either to work with what you have....or to move on in the hopes of finding it elsewhere.

 

Mz Pixie made an excellent point earlier..... You are emotionally vulnerable to whatever woman you make contact with; prime for not simply a physical affair, but rather an affair of the heart. You're looking to have your needs met. Plain and simple.

 

Observe your own reaction to a 15-minute conversation with a woman who, unbeknownst to her, had turned you on. That 'giddy' sensation was the dopamine reaction in your brain. And that was just a 15-minute conversation. Imagine the repercussions if anything romantic had happened.

 

You've been reading these boards here at LS for long enough to know the score. A person who is not getting there needs met at home, and for whatever reason..gives up hope that s/he can find a solution at home, runs out into the world to have them met elsewhere. Then DRAMA ensues.

 

It's not right to "try on" prospective new partners as if you were shopping for large ticket items and wanted to be sure before you made your purchase. That's the mistake that so many cheaters make. They want to keep their home-deal going....until they arrive at a place in their lives where they feel safe to let go.

 

That's certainly not fair to the one they're cheating on. It's not even very fair to the one they're cheating with. This isn't mitigated by the fact that your partner is failing to hold up their end of the relationship. Because it's an action that YOU select, it's an action that YOU are responsible for.

 

Further, even if you do decide to cheat....the amount of time that you'd have available to you to "try on" the new relationship would be insufficient. It takes about 2 years for infatuation to wear off, but your marriage will be OVER long before that happens. Imagine getting into a new relationship, then after two or three years, finding out that DG left her last relationship because she wasn't interested in sex past the infatuation stage.

 

Anyway, as a means of opening a dialogue...even if it's an angry one....your suggestion to initiate the "what if...." conversation has merit. If your agenda is in fact to ACTUALLY illicit her permission to procure extramarital sexual relationships....then nope...sorry...I just don't see it.

 

She may have said to you earlier, in a moment of anger or frustration, "Fine, go have your needs met elsewhere." But she didn't mean it. And she still won't mean it, even if you manage to get her to say it again. I think you already know that, otherwise you'd have probably acted on this.

 

While it's true that some people do have open marriages, it's equally true that those marriages are problematic at best. I can't think of even one example of this that was successful. The risks to the primary relationship are just too great. Sexual entanglements lead to emotional entanglements. Emotional entanglements lead one partner away, and the marriage ends....taking with it, the sense of companionship and friendship which was it's basis.

 

LadyJ says don't take sexual rejection as a personal rejection but that's such a big part of who I am I don't know how to do that. And I don't think I want to. That part has been denied for so long it cannot be contained for much longer.

 

If only Mrs MLC could have offered at least a glimmer of hope, a slight indication that she knew what it was like for me, cared about it and was at least willing to try to make things better. If only, if only...

 

Since you aren't a woman, you'll just have to take my word for it that she is fully capable of rejecting sex....without rejecting YOU. It's just the saddest thing that men and women differ in this ability.

 

You want her to validate your feelings. Then you're going to have to make sure she knows what they are.

 

You two have the WORST communications problems, with BOTH of you withdrawing from the field of battle before misunderstandings are ever resolved.

[midlifecrazy]

So she got the free pass on that one. Yeah.youre right, it was a long time ago but now I wonder WTF was I thinking then. I'm finding though that ripping open the old scar, letting it bleed and brooding about it is making it much easier for me to harden my heart against her. Screwing my nerve up to the sticking point as they say.

 

As far as 'tryouts", well picturing myself as a virile stallion running rampant, free and proud amid fields of feminine pulchitrude indulging indulging in acts of wild abandonment and orgiastic wanton (phew... 'scuse me, got a little carried away there:o ) SEX probably IS a symptom of midlife crisis In my heart I'm actually a romantic, head over heels kind of guy.

 

The thing is if MW crawled up into my lap now and started doing all I've ever desired I don't think I could let her. I know her true feelings and would see it only as a ploy on her part. I think the tipping point has done been tipped.

 

So if a grasping at straws bad solution is really no solution, then it is time to start paying legal fees.

[Ladyjane14]

As far as 'tryouts", well picturing myself as a virile stallion running rampant, free and proud amid fields of feminine pulchitrude indulging indulging in acts of wild abandonment and orgiastic wanton (phew... 'scuse me, got a little carried away there:o ) SEX probably IS a symptom of midlife crisis

 

:laugh: :laugh: Ya think?!

 

 

In my heart I'm actually a romantic, head over heels kind of guy.

 

I'm not surprised by that statement. But thirty years ago, you ran out and married a woman who was more pragmatic than romantic, which served it's purpose at the time. And now, here you are.....polar opposites on the scale of romance.

 

You know, both men and women are capable of compartmentalizing sex at times. Men can do it when their feelings aren't engaged. Once their S/O has elicited their softer emotions, men seem to combine sex and love in a way that makes them inseparable. I see soooooo many responses from men here who say "if your wife isn't having sex with you....she doesn't love you". That's just NOT always true.

 

Women compartmentalize sex as a function when they're suffering from low libido. They don't tend to see sex as integral to showing love. They show love when they're doing the "little things". Things like remembering your favorite brand of toothpaste, and buying you new underwear when you need them.

 

You're really angry right now. You're "screwing your nerve up to the sticking point". That may very well be the best thing to do. In my opinion, you need to up-the-ante until you have her attention. But that doesnt necessarily mean that you have to emotionally withdraw yet.

[Outcast]

I don't get why you're still batting for her when she said she can't be bothered working on the relationship. She has clearly checked out emotionally - and so should he IMHO.

[mazza32cott]

Sounds exactly like what I went through. My ex used to think about nothing but sex. I did the hard yards too. Worked through all of our 20 year marraige, brought up the kids, with little help from him, looked after the house, cooked every night, you know the hard work. He worked, came home and complained if I asked him to do anything. He treated me like crap when he wasn't getting sex and well, quiet frankly, I thought, what is in it for me?

 

He too liked the ass ****ing etc. Liked to do the threesomes etc.

 

Obviously, we were not sexually compatible. It wore thin after a while and I did not look forward to going to bed with him. I realised that he was a very self centred man who didn't really care about my feelings and what I needed.

 

I left and I have never looked back. Very hard to do.

 

I am not saying that you are like him. What I am saying is that you do seem to blame her for everything that is happening to you. My ex did that to me. Everything that went wrong was my fault. In fact everything that happens to him now is still my fault somehow, I suppose because he wasted his life on me.

 

I am a very affectionate and caring woman. I hoped that we could be friends when we split but even though he got 50% of all the assets, and I have the children, he is not happy. He has given me hell since we broke up. He is a man who will never find happiness but blames everyone except him.

 

I hope this is not you. All I am saying is that your wife is a human being too.It's sad when things don't work out especially after all this time. Tald to your wife. Maybe she feels the same. Sounds like you need to move on but really think about what has happened and maybe you will see that not all of the blame lies with her.

 

I have met a nice man. I now like sex again. My new man does not go for hours and nor do I want to go for hours. My new man does not want anal and nor do I. I am happy and I think I have found someone who is sexually compatible with me.

 

Good luck, you have a long road ahead of you.

 

Mazaz

[midlifecrazy]

mazza, thanks for your input. It sounds like, though, you have only read the first page or so. Can't blame you for that I guess since this thing seems to reaching novel length, but there's been a lot of issues addressed along the way.

 

LadyJ, I think I've got her attention. You thought our communication was bad before. Well it's gotten worse. We've gone from me being polite but withdrawn to her giving me the silent treatment. This really kicked in Sun. AM when she may have have been giving me the"signal" but I didn't respond. She got up and left the room shutting the door behind her pretty hard. Since then she's mostly spoken only in monosyllables in response to direct questions.

 

At one point she left to go somewhere without telling me she was leaving. After 3 hours and her not answering her cell phone I went looking for her. I found her talking to her sister,the one she had told about her affair. When I walked up they were talking about the fact that a third sister's husband was going out on her. Don't know if that was a coincidence or if MW thinks maybe I already am too. Or maybe rumour central web did kick in and it got back to her that I had been seen talking to a strange and attractive woman.

 

No way of telling cause she wasn't talking. We ate dinner in complete and abject silence. The whole afternoon and evening had the Valentines day massacre feel to it. I think all I had to do was ask "what's wrong with you" and off we would have went. But I'm interested in seeing where this goes, how long before she says something if she has it on her mind or reverts back to the everything's fine state of avoidance.

 

Funny thing is at one point during that 3 hours I was thinking that the most likely option might turn out to be the sit down/shut up one. It certainly would be the easiest. Coward's way out maybe. But when I think that this may really be going to blow up and all hell will break loose, it's tempting to retreat.

 

Then she's the one who ups-the -ante with the silent treatment. That makes it easier for me to lose any guilt or sympathy toward her. Who knows,if she gets irritated enough she may be the one to walk out before she can ever bring herself to discuss things. This latest turn of events has shelved for the moment the idea of asking the "what if" question since the possiblity exists that she thinks I already am. In fact I'm not going to bring up the subject of sex to her at all. Unless she brings it up herself, it's taboo.

[Mz. Pixie]

You're still hoping for the magic words that will make her snap out of it.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if you said, "I'm filing for divorce" if it would help??

[Ladyjane14]

What you want is an end to the status quo, right?

 

Hmmmm.....I'd say it's getting a little frayed around the edges, wouldn't you?

 

It's the conflict avoider inside you who is dreading confrontation. You know that the only way to elicit change is to face the conflict. Otherwise, the status quo reigns supreme.

 

The fact that she's showing a little wear 'n tear is a GOOD thing. It let's you know that she's at least noticed that something is different.

 

Let her stew. Why not? And think about what you want to say when she finally blows. But do NOT let her rattle your cage, or back you down.

 

Is it going to be the Valentine's Day Massacre all over again? You betcha! But this time YOU are in control. No matter WHAT she says....don't allow your anger to take control of the situation. Calm, cool, and serene. That's you. Let her run herself out.

 

She's going to say things she doesn't mean, but she'll say some things that she does. Wait 'til you've had time to sort the wheat from the chaff before making responses.

 

No matter what the outcome on the marriage, there's a series of confrontations that will have to come first. It's not as if you could actually divorce her without her noticing....(Yeah, I heard that!....but not REALLY. )

 

Anyway, the only way to avoid conflict is to embrace the previous status quo. It's your call.

 

 

What are you going to say if she wants to talk????

[midlifecrazy]

Hang on folks it's going to be a bumpy ride. It certainly didn't take long to get to her. It wasn't the full blown silent treatment I was getting today. More like what I was giving her last week with a bit of a hard edge to it. We had a grandkid visiting so I thought that might be tempering things somewhat.

 

Then late in the afternoon we were alone again. She said she was going to start looking for a job.

 

"Why?" says I.

 

"I'm going to have to start paying my own way sometime", says she.

 

"What are you talking about?", says I.

 

"You're going to be wanting a divorce", says she.

 

Well that caught me off guard. She was sitting and I was pacing as we talked. I walked out of the room for a moment to think. She hadn't said she thought I was cheating or anything yet. But I sure had gotten her attention. Seemed as if she had been reading over my shoulder. I went back where she was.

 

"Is that what you want?" I asked.

 

"You don't love me and it hurts me too much to stay". she said.

 

This transpired before I read your latest post LJ, but you would have been proud of me I think. I had a bad habit when I was younger of answering things right away off the top of my head. That caused me more than a few problems over the years. I think I have that more under control now because I decided not to say anything more right then without taking some time to consider my answer.

 

For her part she seemed remarkably calm and collected. She didn't seem happy but neither did she seem too upset. I imagine to an outsider our reactions would have looked quite similar. To me she appeared resolved and I wondered if maybe this wasn't something she actually wanted.

 

Despite the fact that an elephant had just taken a dump in our house we managed to avoid the unpleasantries most of the evening. Perhaps I was hypersensitive though because every so often there would be what could be taken as a dig at me, or not.

 

Anyway I pondered what to do. Ask her again if she wanted to work on our marriage, suggest the "open marriage' option, tell her she was right and we should go ahead and divorce? She seemed so ready to give up on our marriage without a fight I doubted anything would help. I thought I might wait till I could get on here and get some advice.

 

Then we were sitting there watching TV. I don't know what came over me. I figured all she could do was push me away. I got up, went over and put my arm around her. "What are you doing?" she asked. "Hugging you" I said.

"I thought you didn't love me" she said.

"I love you" I said and kissed her. And then she broke down crying. She had been so afraid that I didn't love her anymore. She didn't know where she was going to go or what she was going to do and how it really actually makes your heart hurt.

 

I told her I had been withdrawn because I had been hurt not because I didn't love her. So we sat and hugged and kissed and she cried for quite awhile.

 

I read something on another site that said something like one decision you can always make it to accept things as they are and choose to be happy with them, I think thats what I have to do even after all this, embrace the status quo willingly. I can't hurt someone I've spent my life with as deeply as this would. So the struggle is over.

 

Just means I'll never get a BJ, unless I can become exceedingly limber.

[mazza32cott]

I was not judging you in my previous post, I was merely trying to say have you looked at this from her side? Maybe she feels that you have not put in where she thought you should have.

 

Anyhow, breaking up after such a long time is a VERY difficult thing to do. I do wish you luck and sympathise with you.

 

Maz

[Outcast]

You are living my nightmare.

 

The only recurring dream I ever had was that I married someone and then realized it was the wrong person but stayed married and miserable till the end of my days so not to hurt the person I married.

 

Fortunately, after my divorce, the dream went away and never came back. The divorce was a mutual decision and everyone's moved on. There was a bit of pain on both sides; parting is never easy but neither of us was the injured party and both of us are better off now.

 

Being condemned to live a life feeling unloved and unwanted is a hell I'd wish on nobody.

[mazza32cott]

I agree with outcast. It is really best not to lay blame but to talk about how you are both feeling. In the end you have to do what is best for you. I can tell you though it can be a bit of a lonely road out there on your own and it will take quiet some time to get over it but when you do and you both move on you can start to live your life the way you want.

 

As for finding the perfect mate, well I don't know what it's like where you are but I am a woman in Australia where there is a 20,000 surplus of single women who cannot find a partner. Maybe move over here lol...

 

Maz

[Ladyjane14]

A couple of posts ago, Outcast asked me why I keep going to bat for Mrs. MLC. All I can say is that when push comes to shove....I believe MLC loves his wife.

 

People are flawed. I'm a flawed person myself. Many of the issues that MLC faces were issues in my own marriage. My husband was not getting the close, loving partnership that he craved. I had to OWN that, if I wanted it to change.

 

It's possible to be a flawed person and still be capable of great love. And it's okay to love a person who is flawed. When it comes to it....aren't we all?

 

Here's the thing though... For me, it wasn't until I had a full-on marital CRISIS, until I was willing to examine a different perspective.

 

But that's not the case here. There's no crisis. And not everyone can survive it when there is. The MLC's might NOT be able to, who knows? Maybe that's why he's unwilling to push.

 

So, what we're left to work with is Persistance. That's the only tool we have, if we don't dare to push the envelope.

 

Persistance takes time and planning. You've got to have a strategy....and you need stamina to pull it off.

 

MLC, I believe that you LOVE your wife. I think you're angry with her at times. I think you're disappointed in her at times. But I also think that you love her.

 

Just look at how you protect her. How, when she finally breaks down enough to let you in a little....you're just willing to do ANYTHING it takes to fix it for her. It seems to me, that THIS is what you most want....just to be let in.

 

After a positive interchange, when you've achieved Intimacy with her, (and I'm not talking about just sexual intimacy, but rather emotional validation)....the relief and hope in your posts is tangible.

 

My suggestion to you now is that you take a different tack. One of persistance and charm. You've been willing to try alot of things so far. Maybe you'll try this. (????)

 

The idea is much like the the same technique you would use for getting one of your grandbabies to eat their peas. Mollycoddling when necessary; backing off when you're not making progress. But persistantly...over time....teaching her to like PEAS. Again, we're not talking sex, but rather Intimacy.

 

I think it's time to re-introduce the Emotional Needs questionairre. You'll find that at marriagebuilders. She should know what a POJA is. She should be able to identify a Lovebuster. Over time (and not in any kind of rush), she should be familiar with the entire Basic Concepts of marriagebuilding.

 

But MOST IMPORTANTLY, she needs to know Why. You have to describe to her the relationship that you've been dreaming of. She needs to know how very important it is to you. She needs to SEE the dream of partnership, the dream of unity, that you have in mind.

 

Use your charm. Have a skin soooooo thick it CANNOT be penetrated by her frustration. You wouldn't let a child hurt your feelings. She's going to flail about like Helen Keller learning to eat from the table. You can't take offense and still pull this off.

 

Anyway, there might still be middle-ground....between the status quo and complete abandonment.

 

Your thoughts????

[seven]

Hi. Newbie here. I googled something or other 2 weeks ago and landed on this thread. If you don't mind my two cents, read on. I think Ladyjane's assessment of you MLC still loving your wife is very true. It's actually quite touching the way you genuinely care what happens to her. There are those who would not, even after years together [saw this firsthand in my sister's marriage--was so sad and awful that it affected me in trusting others, but that's a story onto itself]. Also, if you really didn't want her anymore, I think you would have brought up her past fling whether she wanted to hear about it or not, but you didn't.

 

I may have missed this among all the posts, but just wondered if the two of you go out on "date" nights and/or as a couple with other friends or as part of a social activity? It's not always easy to find couple time with family and work, etc., but this could help with feeling "unified" and just for fun. And I have to ask ... would a cocktail or two help get her in the mood? I'm not suggesting that she become reliant on alcohol, just that a margarita along with the right person can do wonders for letting inhibitions go.

 

I don't know what is best for you and your Mrs. in the long run ... just thought I'd throw this in the mix.

[Horse]

I'm afraid this is going to be the longest thread ever. Nothing will ever get resolved because both of you are too afraid of hurting the other person to confront them and lay all your cards on the table.

 

The empathy will wear off and your own frustration will resurface and this will just go round and round forever condemming you to a life of frustration and your wife to a life of feeling resented. Both of you will go on feeling unloved.

 

The whole time I've been reading this post I've been thinking "It's probably going to end in divorce, but he might have a chance if he does something to get her attention and forces her to make a choice between divorce or therapy." You finally had her attention and you didn't use it.

 

How about something like this:

 

Her: "I thought you didn't love me"

 

You: "I do love you, but love has to be nurtured. I'm afraid we haven't been nurturing our love for a long time and we are drifting apart. I love you now, but I'm afraid if things keep on going as they have been, there may come a time when I can't love you anymore. I don't want to lose you... but I'm miserable and I can only think of two ways to resolve this and make us a happy couple again."

 

I thought LJ was being harsh when she said you both suck at communicating, but she was right. You obviously know how to put the words together for a bunch of strangers, you just don't know how to say them to the person who needs to hear them the most.

 

If you really can just accept it, be happy and live the rest of your life without passion, physical affection, or sex with a woman who you know needs help, then go for it.

 

Otherwise, sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

 

I think you are leaving the big steaming pile of elephant dung in the middle of the room and trying to ignore it.

[Outcast]

.I believe MLC loves his wife.

 

That may well be. I do not believe his wife loves him. I believe she wants a husband around. I believe she needs him. But I do not believe she loves him.

 

And so we have yet another person puppy-dogging around behind someone who mistreats him and shows little care for him - but he loooooooves her. So does Beth love her impossible man. So do many people 'loooooooove' people who mistreat them constantly. This is not a love story. It's a wretched story of one human being who needs love and care accepting scraps and crumbs from someone who won't give him anything and demands he give everything.

 

IMHO there is nothing to celebrate here.

[midlifecrazy]

Well ok, here we go. There’s a lot to be said for intimacy , connection, communication etc. but let’s not downplay the sex thing. I’m not sorry for being a guy and it IS my love language. That being said, boy did we have a great talk today.

 

I was still in the comforting mode when MW took the lead. One thing led to another and we ended up in a lovemaking session that was among the all time greats for us. Had to be in the top 5 at least and maybe…best ever? All I can say is if this is make up sex why don’t we fight more often.?

 

It didn’t seem like a ploy on her part. It seemed genuine and natural I think on our part this did seem like a full blown marital crisis. We have never been as close to splitting up as we were now. One wrong move or word or attitude and I think that would have been it. All she had to do was push me away when I went to hug her, but she didn’t. I think she finally realized that the situation was deadly serious. Maybe we had to get to this point before a crack could ever be made in her protective shell. But I think now it has been made.

 

Yes, I honestly think she loves me and that it’s the ghosts of the past that have prevented her from being fully trusting and intimate with me even after all these years, I know I sound like I’m nuts here, “I love her. I don’t love her..I don’t know if I love her. Maybe I love her a little”. I don’t blame y’all for saying WTF!

 

I don’t know if we’re out of the woods yet but we’ve made a start. I guess I’m out if I decide I am. I don’t think she’s going anywhere. She always said she was happy before. But I think there’s going to be improvement. LJ, I like the approach you lay out, sounds almost like I should mount another love campaign now that her defenses have been breached.

 

Horse and Outcast, I hope you’re wrong. Seven you almost touch on another thing I was thinking about. I would like for us to get back to where we were even before we were married. Having fun being together, getting the spark back. I heard something on the radio awhile back that said one of the greatest loves you can experience in when you fall back in love with your own spouse. That’s what I want for us.

[Horse]

I think she loves you as much as she is capable of loving anyone. I think you are right when you say she has too many issues to trust you enough to open up and love you fully.

 

but that's where the frustration comes from. You had and hopefully still have her open.

 

If you don't act on this opportunity, everything is going to go back to the way it was before. You have to be very clear and direct about what you need and the eventual consequences.

 

Maybe last night was sincere. Maybe the idea of losing you reminded her of how passionately she once felt about you. That's great, but it won't last on it's own.

 

I totally get the "I love her.. I don't love her" thing. You love her, but you are frustrated almost to the point where it doesn't matter. What I don't get is why you have been so timid in confronting her.

[mazza32cott]

This is a very difficult situation. I loved my husband and I didn't love my husband. Think I just wished like hell it would all work out for the kids sake but he was so mean to me. It was so tough. In the end I did not want to have sex with him, I tried to make myself but it would always go back to where it was.

 

Don't know the answer.....

 

Maz

[seven]

Good news…on the shagging that is!! lol (your post made me think of Austin Powers … what can I say). Keeping the love campaign up sounds like a fine idea, what the hell really. Maybe suggest she take a day to pamper herself … shop for new clothes, hair/nails done, whatever she likes. If she feels like she looks good, this will help spark her. Plan a night out on the town, whatever you both like to do and see what happens.

 

Also, in your 9/13 post you mentioned that your wife contemplated going back to work because she thought she may have to, but then it sounded like the idea got dropped when you made up so to speak. But you know that may actually be a good idea for her, perhaps part-time so it doesn’t seem so overwhelming to her (it’s not easy transitioning from being at home to jumping back in the workplace). It may help her with her depression, boost her self-esteem, help her feel a bit more independent, and just a change of routine can be good. When you two are at odds, her being dependent on your income, benefits may make her feel lost or restricted (I’ve felt this way myself at times). One last suggestion … perhaps you might want to search for a book on the topic of being sexually abused in adolescence (reading it before you give it to her might help you understand her better and then she can discuss it with you as she reads it). Since she doesn't want to go the therapy route right now, it might help her thinking and perspective. Just a thought.

 

I’m not trying to influence you in what to do, just seemed from your last post that you've now got the steam to keep trying. Hope it works out for you both.

[Ladyjane14]

I do not believe his wife loves him. I believe she wants a husband around. I believe she needs him. But I do not believe she loves him.

 

Why would it be so difficult to believe that she loves him? He seems like a fairly nice guy. She's lived with him for 30 years now, spending more time living with him than she's spent living without him. He tells us that he's been good to her, providing security for both her and the family. Certainly, he hasn't been aggressively hostile with her. He's been fairly polite and considerate. Why would she not love him?

 

I spent some time today thinking about emotional vulnerability. Being emotionally vulnerable with your partner would suggest that you have faith in their ability to love you....even though you are a flawed person. Being a flawed person, you might make mistakes; sometimes BIG mistakes, but mostly small ones. Can you trust your partner to love and support you anyway? Can you be imperfect and still be loved?

 

Sometimes I think that in our efforts to be supportive of a poster, we can forget that there are two sides to every story. We can forget that ALL of us live in our own glass house. We're all imperfect. We're all flawed. And we all make mistakes.

 

MLC isn't perfect. And while it's not for us to judge him, we can't make the assumption that he is made of more stirling stuff than the average mortal either. He makes mistakes, same as anyone.

 

That said, fully half of MLC's relationship problems are his own fault. He doesn't allow himself to be emotionally vulnerable to his wife. She's not safe to be emotionally vulnerable with him. He's a pretty good husband overall, but he gets mad, he gets disappointed....and then he withdraws. (Please do correct me if I'm reading that wrong, MLC. )

 

Already, before she even came to him....Mrs. MLC was somewhat closed off. She had learned NOT to be emotionally vulnerable. She had learned to be strong and not let people in. She'd been hurt before. She'd been abused.

 

But that was 30 years ago. Surely, if MLC was doing everything just right to make her feel emotionally safe, and if he was sharing himself in like manner....she wouldn't be closing him out like this after all this time.

 

MLC still can't see her POV, so he still can't see where he could be improving his side of the relationship. He hasn't taken ownership of any serious faults or flaws.

 

Well, that's not entirely true. He's very willing to say when he screws up some aspect or other of it. But he hasn't taken action to change something intrinsic to his dealings with her. Not a consistant change anyway, something that would be unfailingly continuous past his next disappointment.

 

And even if he did....people are very much formed be their experience in youth. Some are just less emotionally vulnerable than others based on childhood development....and maybe even base on physiology.

 

Then there's the confusion factor. Perception is the truth in that whatever Mrs. MLC truly believes, right or wrong, that's what's got to be dealt with. He may love her like CRAZY. But if she can't believe it....she can't feel it.

 

Anyway, I'm fairly convinced that Mrs. MLC does in fact truly love her husband. She cries EVERYTIME he cracks through the veneer, which tells me that she very likely IS emotionally vulnerable to him.

 

I think she's just afraid. And I think she's been hiding her fear behind a tough bluff for a VERY long time.

 

Sorry for the ramble. I'm thinking out loud today, I suppose.

 

 

 

 

Anyway, MLC....I'm in agreement with Horse. I think you could very easily lose the slim progress you've made.

 

It's well past time to make a SOLID decision on your desired outcome. If your choice is truly to stay in the marriage, it's time to back it up....with true DEDICATION to your goals. No holds barred. No withdrawal.

[Ladyjane14]

Also, in your 9/13 post you mentioned that your wife contemplated going back to work because she thought she may have to, but then it sounded like the idea got dropped when you made up so to speak. But you know that may actually be a good idea for her, perhaps part-time so it doesn’t seem so overwhelming to her (it’s not easy transitioning from being at home to jumping back in the workplace). It may help her with her depression, boost her self-esteem, help her feel a bit more independent, and just a change of routine can be good. When you two are at odds, her being dependent on your income, benefits may make her feel lost or restricted (I’ve felt this way myself at times).

 

Good suggestions all....but I especially like this one. It really does have a negative effect on a woman's self-esteem to be completely financially dependant on a man. Even if she doesn't make much...a little bit of her own hard-earned money might make her feel like a million bucks.

[Ladyjane14]

I'm sorry. I'm tired, and I'm making a muddle of this....

 

I meant to cite you an example of what I mean by emotional vulnerability.

 

When my husband and I had all our trouble, and I told him in no uncertain terms that I was through, that I wanted a divorce.... he gor REALLY upset. It surprised me.

 

See, I had thought that he didn't love me anymore. It had been my belief for a long, long time, and I believed it right down to my bones. I didn't think that ANYTHING I said or did would affect him. I didn't think he cared enough to be bothered by me.

 

But he was DEVASTATED. And I was flatly shocked by it. Because the whole time I had considered him to be invulnerable to me. I was convinced he cared nothing for me. How could I hurt him, if he didn't care?

 

The TRUTH was that he was COMPLETELY vulnerable to me. So much so, that he had shut down. I wasn't getting anything in terms of positive emotional response because he was guarding. I was just getting the negative, angry stuff.

 

He was keeping me out, because he was getting hurt consistantly by my inattentiveness. The prospective divorce forced his guard down....and his vulnerablility became obvious to me.

 

My challenge at that point became to drop my own guards. They were SERIOUSLY entrenched too. I had been taking some really bad treatment for a LONG LONG TIME. But I had to realize how very much it meant to me that I could finally see my own effect on him. I was empowered in my ability to hurt him. And I was AWED that he trusted me with it.

 

I could see the proof that he cared, because he was vulnerable to me.

 

I needed to give him that gift in return.

 

Allowing emotional vulnerability is STILL challenging for me. There are habits, long ingrained that I must be wary of. The most serious of which is avoidance. It's waaaayyy too easy to slip back into the habit of avoiding him when one of us is having a hard day. But once you know what you're looking for....it's ALOT easier to recognize.

[midlifecrazy]

I think I ought to just invite you all over to my house and everybody can sit around with their favorite beverage and we can just talk. Man, there are some insightful comments that come out here. LadyJ sometimes you’re almost scary. That part about being emotionally vulnerable really hit home. To me it’s almost an alien concept to think of myself that way or allow others to see me like that.

 

I took a good share of emotional abuse myself before I ever met MW. The way I dealt with it was to fort up, be stoic and let no one see pain. I even took Simon and Garfunkels “I Am a Rock” as my personal theme song. Hmm, maybe that’s part of the reason I put up with so much frustration for so long. To me it seems almost unbelievable that a woman would want her man to show vulnerability, that it would almost denote weakness. Would she want a weak man? Are you sure on that one?

 

On the idea of her working, she can do that anytime she wants, doesn’t bother me. But in the past she has been mostly miserable every time she tried it. I’m not going to encourage her to do it because even if I said otherwise I think she would perceive it as I want her to go to work.

 

Got quite a bit more to say, but don’t have the time so say it tonight. I’m thinking ,barring unforeseen developments, it may be getting near time to wrap this thread up. Maybe I can expand on this next time.