dump a bad marriage for an old love?

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by Moose

May I suggest one more thing.....and make this the final move too. Trial Seperation. There are places you can rent month to month. Maybe with your absence, she'll begin to think on a different level. If things aren't better after a month or 2 of seperation......then I would concur that it's time for you to move on.

 

Separation might be required at some point. But I'm still hopeful that it can be avoided. Personally, I would issue the ULTIMATUM before going that route.

 

I know I'm like a broken record on the subject of MC ....but I do NOT believe that it can be avoided in your case. Regardless of whether you save the marriage or not, YOU need it for your own sake.

 

If it was going to be easy for you to walk away, you'd have already done it YEARS ago. Could be that you're trying to screw up your nerve to do something that you're not comfortable with, something that is against your nature to do.....or it would have been done by now. (????)

 

Your six-month foray into marriage-building is not a fair trial, UNLESS you overturn this last rock.

 

I'm a great believer in marriage and fidelity, and all that aside....I'm telling you, not in the interest of advocating my own belief-system, but rather encouraging you to be true to yours. Don't let another week pass without getting this done.

 

We've all got opinions here at LS, and we've all got our own experiences that we're willing to share, but we're not professionals.

 

I worry for you....that in your case your penchant for conflict avoidance is going to cost you your family-life forever. And as I said...mine is not a trained eye, but even I can see that. What might a trained counselor tell you?

 

Or, could it be that you're worried a counselor might stop you from leaving? Because if that's the case, and you're just screwing up your nerve to do it....you don't need permission. Not from anyone but yourself. You're the ONLY guy you have to please here. Our opinions are immaterial.

 

I've observed your posts on this thread swinging from very gung-ho and optimistic, to the other extreme. There seems to be this huge duality in you regarding your committment to the marriage....a crossroads.

 

You're going to be so much happier when you choose a path, and when you dedicate yourself to it.

[midlifecrazy]

I know I'm all over the place here sounding like I'm swinging back and forth on the subject. Someone, I think it might have been LJ, said when I was starting the "love campaign" that I should be in counselling at the time. That way if things didn't seem to be working out I'd have the support and benefit of someone else's opinion. Maybe that's what's happening. The situation isn't improving and it just seems to me that I am the only one putting any effort into salvaging this marriage.

 

I don't know maybe I haven't done enough in the love campaign lately. I have still been trying though. But it's hard to keep your spirits up when nothing you do seems to be appreciated or worse scorned (i.e. my lousy taste in movies we hadn't seen yet) The woman has a remarkable talent for sticking a knife in your guts in the evening and waking up the next morning and acting as if nothing has happened. Maybe this is the way she learned to cope with what happened to her but it's hell on me.

 

Why in this day and age of easy and commonplace divorce I am dawdling around is a good question. Financially I'll take a hit but still be in decent shape I think. She on the other hand will be devastated (we live in a non-alimony state). She'll have to do something she's never had to do before in her life, get a full time job and support herself. I'd hate to see that happen but if it does she's bringing it on herself.

 

The kids are raised. One of the things that dawned on me last fall when I began seriously evaluating this was that the no matter what happens I will always be their father and grandfather to their children. Especially if I don't do something stupid like have an affair. If their mother and I simply can't live together anymore which one of us will be more to blame?

 

Still it's true as LJ guesses for whatever reason I am not comfortable yet with the idea of ending so long a marriage. Maybe I don't want to admit failure. Maybe like convicts with long prison sentences I've become "institutionalized" afraid of the "outside world" on some subconscious level.

 

Several posters have expressed the opinion that I love her. Do I? I care about her welfare and happiness. I am concerned about her future. I wish no harm to come to her. I do love the way she cares for the family. But all that said to me it doesn't feel like man/woman, husband/wife love, romantic or otherwise. Guess my "love tank" is still running on empty.

 

One other thing I don't know whether or not it's pertinent. Her mother has always treated her father horribly. It's been really, really bad over the years and yet he stayed with her. I've told my wife on more than one occasion that I would never put up with what he did. She's never been as bad as her mother. Maybe she's just testing my limits.

 

We're coming up on an interesting period. Almost to the time I first met her all those years ago. If I knew then what I know now would I do it again? For the kids and grandkids, yes. Take them out of the picture and probably...... no.

[Mz. Pixie]

Gosh, MLC- it's like I'm sitting here, watching her- and she's holding up her hand and it's full of sand. The sand is slowly trickling out of it bit by bit but yet she cannot see it, because she's not looking.

 

There is nothing wrong with following through with LJ's advice and giving her the ultimatum. You seem to have tried everything else.

[Bubbles]

I just want to make a statement here.....My humble opinion o.k.?

 

You seem to be quite "comfortably" miserable! How in the world could you exist on so little affection? I could not.......for so long!

 

 

Take Care MLC

 

bubbles

[moimeme]

One other thing I don't know whether or not it's pertinent. Her mother has always treated her father horribly. It's been really, really bad over the years and yet he stayed with her. I've told my wife on more than one occasion that I would never put up with what he did. She's never been as bad as her mother. Maybe she's just testing my limits

.

 

She learned her relationship style from her family. This bodes even worse for any hopes of her changing. Maybe had you tackled this earlier in the marriage but it's way too late now, IMHO.

 

Maybe like convicts with long prison sentences I've become "institutionalized" afraid of the "outside world" on some subconscious level.

 

It's inertia. Much, much less trouble and difficulty to stick with the status quo. It requires courage to change your life entirely. Everything with which you are familiar will change - and that can be uncomfortable. You know trouble will ensue when she gets upset with you (although it seems she's quite disengaged from you so she may not be as upset as you surmise). An awful lot of people will remain in their ruts just because it's a hassle to climb out of one. But do you really want to spend the end of your days like this? Because, realistically, this lady is not going to change.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

.....I am not comfortable yet with the idea of ending so long a marriage. Maybe I don't want to admit failure. Maybe like convicts with long prison sentences I've become "institutionalized" afraid of the "outside world" on some subconscious level.

 

I don't think that you're necessarily motivated by fear or "institutionalized" by your past. Anything's possible, I suppose. But, it's a really BIG decision, afterall, to end your marriage.

 

You have zero guarantees that you'll be happier without your wife. It's within the realm of possibility that you won't ever have another relationship at all after this one. Likewise, you have no guarantee that you'll ever find satisfaction within the relationship you have now.

 

I don't think ANYONE could blame you a bit for taking your time, when you're talking about the rest of your life.

 

So....take your time. And get some help with thinking it all through. You're looking a bit overwhelmed from here, like Atlas with the weight of the world on your shoulders.

[midlifecrazy]

Wow, been over a month since my last post. It's felt like there hasn't been much going on and then again maybe more than it seemed at the time. For those still interested I'll try to bring you up to date. This may ramble on a bit and I may break it up into 2 segments.

 

Bubbles you nailed it pretty good with the "comfortably miserable" phrase and Moi the inertia thing seems to peg it too. LadyJ I'm still swinging back and forth but I think a lot of this is due to whatever reactions I'm getting from Mrs MLC at the time. If we seem to be getting along I'm up and willing to keep trying for awhile. If not, I'm nearly ready to throw in the towel. Unfortunately using Mz Pixie's analogy, there isn't much sand remaining in her hand.

 

The love campaign has pretty much ground to a halt. It's not in full retreat yet but I am making some desperate last ditch efforts to keep it from becoming a total rout.

 

The child has finally moved out. It took a little longer than expected. I've always been a pretty private person. This coupled with the swings of our relationship has kept me from counseling so far. When I saw my PC doc the kid was still at home and we weren't doing too bad at the moment. Also from what I had been told by the Psychologist's office it wouldn't be hard to arrange a session when necessary. So I delayed.

 

The nest emptied. Things started getting edgy again. I pissed her off over basically a nothing incident and she ripped into me calling me dirty names. I don't call her names, never have. I may think them but I never verbalize them. That's when I thought maybe it's not going to be like Vesuvius. Maybe it's going to be like those old movies about the French revolution where the peasants are just pushed and pushed until they finally explode, storm the Bastille and start lopping off heads. Valentines Day 2004, only this time we don't retire to our corners.

 

Well this time we did stand down or maybe I just never really rose to the bait. But I was still pissed at the way she'd treated me. I've been doing a lot of reading on other forums here at LS and at other sites. I really think that I could make a case that she is emotionally abusive to me.

 

Anyway she got over her mad at me easily enough I guess. A few days later she intiated what usually for her is a come on for sex (on the rare ocassions she wants it) She asked me to scratch her back. I did and then got up out of the bed. She asked where I was going. I told her I was going to get breakfast. She never said anything but I had the feeling she was expecting me to make love to her. This is where I get ugly. I didn't know if I'd hurt her but I hoped I had.

 

I felt like this all day and into the next. I was harboring such resentment toward her that I was finding her repulsive and enjoying the fact that I hadn't caved in this time. Then later on I realized that this wasn't right, so I decided to make an IC appt. Didn't work out...... to be continued

[midlifecrazy]

As I was saying, once my conscience surfaced through the anger and resentment I'd been feeling I realized I wasn't proud of trying to hurt her. There have been times in my past where I wish I'd treated someone differently. Nothing drastic or scandalous but times when I could have treated a person better. I didn't want to add to whatever load of guilt I already carry.

 

I finally screwed up my resolve, swallowed my pride and called to make an appointment for counseling. Whereupon I ran smack dab into an obnoxious little buzzsaw of an "apparitchik" who promptly informed me I wasn't jumping through the necessary hoops. Certainly wasn't the warm and reassuring welcome I'd been led earlier to expect.

 

So shelving that for the moment I reconsidered. As hard as it was for me to get to that point I seriously wonder if I would be able to talk to a counselor. To open up to basically a total stranger about the most private and intimate details of my life seems to me to be an almost insurmountable chasm for me to leap.

 

As I mulled that over for a few days we seemed to enter a more tranquil time. Maybe it was a last ditch love campaign attitude from me or maybe she realized I was still hurting and was trying to make amends. Whatever it was her criticism of me slacked off. She actually began using "honey" and "dear" when talking to me. I guess that tells you how far down the slope you are when it's things like that which stand out. For my part I did my best to rid myself of negative feelings and respond to her in kind.

 

We went on like that for awhile. All the time though I was still avoiding making a sexual overture to her for fear of being rejected again and rekindling the negativism. Then she made her own move. She started out like she always does, playing with herself. Things were going ok, making out etc. Then as I've been told on here ( I'm not blaming anyone, I would have done it anyway) I told her what I needed and wanted sexually (oral sex). She became quiet and I looked at her. She had an odd look on her face so I asked her what was the matter. She began sobbing uncontrollably. I immediately aborted the lovemaking and tried to comfort her but she still wouldn't tell me what was wrong.

 

And she was still masturbating and crying all the time. Now is the time I felt like a complete perv as LJ thought I might in an earlier post. I told her it was ok we didnt' have to do anything but she said she wasn't finished yet. Well wee willie had gone south and was no longer in the mood but I didn't know what to do. If she was doing it for herself or just to please me or for herself by thinking she's pleasing me. I managed to get it back up and we made love and I was really glad when it was over.

 

We had company most of the day after that but that evening I again asked her why she had been crying. If the woman can do nothing else, she sure can stonewall. All I ever got out of her was that she had felt bad. I don't know if its because of her abuse or me or something else. And I don't know what do to when the mere thought of a relatively common sex act with me brings my wife to tears.

[moimeme]

You can't live forever with someone who is ill but refuses help. While she's not physically ill, she may well be suffering from PTSD and refuses to get it fixed. You are at a standstill - things improve a tiny bit and then retreat.

 

Do you honestly believe this is ever going to change after 30 years?

[Bubbles]

Personally I am starting to think that your wife it nuts!

 

How can a person lay there in bed playing with herself and sobbing at the same time? BIZZARE! I have NEVER been able to do that!

Boy that IS talent!

 

bubbles

[midlifecrazy]

To me it seems as if when I said "I do" she said "I used to and boy am I glad I don't have to anymore". I don't know at what point she decided that she would have the final say and veto power over all matters sexual in our relationship but it was early on. I think probably the only way to have altered the dynamic would be to do exactly what we're doing right now. Struggle over it with the realization that the marriage may very well end. But there were the kids and so we've put it off until now. And no, Moi, I really don't think it's going to change.

 

Bubbles, I also have this nagging suspicion about the abuse. I hate to think it but maybe she is making it up as an excuse. It would seem to explain things but to tell no one, no one for all those years. To tell me now but not say who it was and swear me to secrecy? To refuse to get help dealing with it? Can you see why I might have some doubts?

 

Now there's this crying during sex thing. It almost seems to me that I am being manipulated. After that incident I don't think I'll ever feel right again even mentioning oral sex to her. She did make me feel like that big of a perv. All she's willing to do occasionally is straight missionary style sex. As far as variety about all I've got left to ask for is a hand job and I seriously have my doubts if she'll even do that.

 

Maybe I've been manipulated from the very beginning. When we were dating she never turned me down and I didn't want to be the kind of guy who would take a girl out just for sex and then dump her (quaint idea, isn't it?). Then I think I sensed something too needy and demandingly clinging about her. As I tried to distance a little and think about things she initiated sex back then. Granted no one held a gun to my head but hell I was a normal dumb horny 18 year old. As I considered my options, I would be going back to college soon and that would force some separation between us, she got pregnant. End of that story and the beginning of this one.

 

I think an ultimatum will come this summer. If she wants to work on saving this marriage we can try MC together. Perhaps we can support each other in an effort to keep from tearing ourselves apart.

 

Now for something completely different and completely wrong. Wrong in that I said I wouldn't do it, I shouldn't do it and it's not helping my marital situation. Different in that it made me happy.

 

A couple of months ago I saw the old friend who had told me the story that had cost me the "dream girl". I asked him if he remembered. He hummed and hawed and said he sort of remembered her name but nothing else. What can you say when someone says they don't recall? He had to go so I dropped it.

 

I haven't been frequenting places where I might see her but yesterday I was driving though town and saw her I did. And she waved at me! My first reaction was wait was that who I thought it was? So I whipped it around the block and headed back. I didn't see her truck on the bridge leading out of town but I thought maybe I just hadn't been quick enough. I turned back into town and then I saw her parked at a convince store. She wasn't in the vehicle though.

So I wasn't sure if it had been her. I circled the block and then I saw the vehicle leaving and it was indeed my dream girl. She left town then and I went on about my business. Funny thing I had an oldies station on and it was playing an absolutely correct song.

 

Now maybe I'm wrong and she was swatting a bug. And then again it's fairly common around here for people to wave at each other when driving. But there's usually some sort of connection. But in my fantasy world perhaps my friend mentioned the fact that I mentioned her and it eventually got back around to her. And maybe she was flattered. I know it took me back to those thrilling days of yesteryear and it felt terrific! I also know that all she would have to do is waggle her finger at me and I'd be in bed with her. Can't help it but I'd love to take that little cowgirl for a ride. And that would probably end my marriage dilemma with a real bang!

[Mz. Pixie]

Yeah, I'm with Bubbles- laying in bed playing with herself- that is just too bizarre.

 

I'm starting to wonder if you're not being manipulated. If you are, that's just wrong on so many different levels I can't even comprehend.

 

MLC- you're right about where I was when I started my affair. I was aching for someone just to touch me or talk to me. I expressed all of this though to my exh, as I've said a million times. Makes me sad to think about it.

 

My BF and I had a discussion about sex. I think that many men think that their wives or ex wives or gfs manipulate them with sex. I don't understand that concept. What I do understand is that many women cannot "feel" a man sexually unless they are emotionally intimate with them. Then, men cannot feel a woman emotionally unless they are having sex. God sure did make us all very different!

 

Many of the BS's who have husbands that cheat should come here and read your thread. It may help them to understand where some of their husband's minds might have been when they cheated. Often times they have no concept of how the other person was feeling when they did what they did.

[Bubbles]

Mz. Pixie

 

You are sooooo right. Many, many BS's need to read this thread just to have their eyes opened to how their SO's are feeling - I think a lot of women think that their husband don't have ANY feelings, but if the truth be known? They actually feel MORE than women do, they just do not know HOW to express it.

 

 

bubbles

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by midlifecrazy

I finally screwed up my resolve, swallowed my pride and called to make an appointment for counseling. Whereupon I ran smack dab into an obnoxious little buzzsaw of an "apparitchik" who promptly informed me I wasn't jumping through the necessary hoops. Certainly wasn't the warm and reassuring welcome I'd been led earlier to expect.

 

So shelving that for the moment I reconsidered. As hard as it was for me to get to that point I seriously wonder if I would be able to talk to a counselor. To open up to basically a total stranger about the most private and intimate details of my life seems to me to be an almost insurmountable chasm for me to leap.

 

Well, I'm sorry that you had a bad experience with the scheduling. I hope you won't allow that to stop you though. You need this support, kiddo.

 

When you're working through your insurance plan, it helps to call and verify your benefits in order to get a clear understanding of the insurer's protocols. It keeps you from getting caught off-guard in a situation in which you might already be feeling somewhat uncomfortable. And clearly....you are uncomfortable with going to counseling, otherwise you'd have already taken these steps.

 

One of the important things to bear in mind is that the first person that you talk to in the reception area....isn't necessarily going to be the best person to put you at ease. They're just answering the phones and filling in the blanks on their little forms. Don't be put off by a receptionist's poor handling.

 

Believe me, I was uncomfortable with the thought of sharing out my troubles with a stranger too....but oddly enough, it's liberating to get an unbiased opinion.

 

Anyway, if you're not making any progress whatsoever, maybe you should consider a brief separation? I almost NEVER recommend that to people, but maybe that's what will be needed to get your wife's serious consideration. Further, it might not be a bad idea for YOU to have some time alone and determine whether or not you miss her.

 

Just a thought.

[midlifecrazy]

Bubbles, BS = Betrayed Spouse?

 

All I want is for someone to ardently, eagerly, enthusiastically DESIRE me instead of barely being able to tolerate my touch. I don't think that's too much to hope for. It's something everyone deserves. Now I'm pretty sure that Mrs MLC is never going to be able to feel that way about me until she deals with some of her issues. I'm getting nowhere. She's going to need professional help doing that.

 

Right now I'm kind of in a holding pattern. Since our last kid moved out my wife has been running the grandkids in several times a week to stay over night. We still have been alone together very little. I love the kids as much as she does and I may be wrong but it almost feels to me like she's using them as a shield knowing we can't get into any heavy discussions while they're around. I feel pretty certain that she's hoping I'll get over this phase and go back to what she felt was normal for me all these years. And if we're constantly surrounded by kids and grandkids that just helps to keep the lid on the situation.

 

Sooner or later though they're going to slack off and we can get down to business. I have some different ideas as to how it may play out but however it does I know we'll reach an impasse again and that's when I'll ask her again to go to MC. If she still refuses it will be time for the ultimatum. If she still won't go I guess it will be time to make plans to pull the plug.

 

LJ, you and Moose have suggested a trial separation. As long and hard as this road has been if we do break up I don't really think I'd consider it just a trial. I foresee only doing what is required by law for a divorce. I wouldn't want to have to go through this again.

[moimeme]

Sooner or later though they're going to slack off and we can get down to business

 

There'll always be something. At some point you have to take the bull by the horns. Or inertia will take you to the end of your days sitting waiting until one or another thing happens before you do something about this.

[midlifecrazy]

Holy crap! I may end up talking to "dream girl" before I ever talk to a counselor. She was back on my turf again today, at the conveinece store again. Very odd. I'm going to start having to make myself presentable before going to town.

 

Sounds like I've fallen off the wagon and am right back where I was at the beginning of this whole long thread. But if I run into her again inside the grocery store or something I really don't want to ignore her. I'd like to at least say hi to her and find out for sure if she does remember me. What's the worst that could happen? She doesn't? Pepper spray?

 

Playing with fire maybe. Mz Pixie, any of this sound familiar? Should alarm bells be going off?

 

There is one more aspect to the whole situation. A deep, dark secret I've never revealed. Maybe I will later on. Hell I ought to sell this storyline to Desperate Housewives and cash in.

 

Maybe it's like LJ predicted it might go, quite a while back. I've been beating my head against a wall and getting no place so now it seems hopeless. And the thing is I really don't whether I care anymore or not.

 

After I questioned the old friend about dream girl he turned the subject to the last girlfriend I had before I met the future Mrs MLC. That girl had dumped me. She had also been friends with my old friend. After I got involved with wife to be the first girl changed her mind and wanted me back. I had moved on but my old friend was always championing the first girls's cause. I tried to stay friends with her because we had been friends before getting romantically involved.

 

Mrs to be never liked her. I guess because she sensed the first girl wanted me back. On the night before our wedding I had a bad scene with the first girl. Mrs MLC to this day does not know about that. If she did it might explain her feelings about her yet today. Just recently Mrs was doing something to our daughters hair, highlighting, coloring whatever. Anyway daughter was laughing and said mom had been telling her what a bad boy I had been in my misspent youth. She then said mother sure didn't like "B" (the dumper girl).

 

I let it go kind of amazed to myself that Mrs was still completely oblivious of the one that could actually be a threat. A few months ago we traveled through the down where dream girl had lived. Mrs was driving and doing a helluva job whipping around shortcuts and backstreets. I asked her how she knew the town so well. She said she had used to go with someone from there. She may have told me that before but if so it was so long ago I forgot. On the way back I mentioned that I too had gone out with someone from there. Her response was "Yeah,right." I don't know what that was supposed to mean but she absolutely refused to believe me. No point really other than I offered to share and maybe she didn't think I was much of a prize.

 

Kind of a long and pointless ramble but I felt like talking. I really don't think anything will come of dream girl. But if I were to find out she was available that would certainly put things in a different light. And that's kind of stupid because if she's not available I'm certain there are a lot of other candidates out there. Sounding more and more like we've waited too long to save this. Sad.

 

Last ditch is getting closer. Moi, I'm not talking several weeks or months. I want to issue an ultimatum by ,what else, Independence Day.

[Bubbles]

STAY AWAY from dream girl. She is only a teaser that life is throwing your way. You need to start seeing her as that. You obviously desire something more than what you have but........if you start with her? The WHOLE town INCLUDING your wife will know what you were doing (innocent or otherwise) in a matter of hours!

 

Trust me I am from small town in the middle of no-where and EVERYBODY knew MY busines without my saying a damn word!

 

Use your brain!

 

 

bubbles

[Bubbles]

mlc,

 

I sent you a private message. Did you read it???

 

 

bubbles

[moimeme]

Kind of a long and pointless ramble but I felt like talking. I really don't think anything will come of dream girl. But if I were to find out she was available that would certainly put things in a different light. And that's kind of stupid because if she's not available I'm certain there are a lot of other candidates out there. Sounding more and more like we've waited too long to save this. Sad.

 

Last ditch is getting closer. Moi, I'm not talking several weeks or months. I want to issue an ultimatum by ,what else, Independence Day.

 

What I'm seeing, MLC, is someone eager to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. You are looking like someone who can't bear the thought of being alone - that's why you've delayed dealing with your marriage so long and why now, with a new companion in sight, you're more eager to change.

 

DO NOT PURSUE THIS 'DREAMGIRL'. At least not yet. You run the risk of regarding her as a shelter from your turmoil and, because of that, mistaking her for an actual dream girl. You need to get out of the marriage and then spend some time learning to be independent and comfortable on your own without taking on a new relationship.

[midlifecrazy]

got it bubbles, thanks

 

Moi, I guess I sound kind of fixated on dream girl but I'm not really. I think if we do end up breaking up the last thing I'd want to do is settle right down with someone again. I've got 30 years of catching up to do. I'd like to play the field awhile before I hit eharmony.com looking for my one and only.

[moimeme]

moimeme (playing 'mom')

I'd like to play the field awhile before I hit eharmony.com looking for my one and only.

 

moi-même (playing 'mom'):

 

Well don't forget condoms, dear. The world's a lot different than it was 30 years ago

[midlifecrazy]

Cripes,"Mom"! Hadn't really thought that far ahead, and considering that I'm still firing "live ammo" too, that's very sound advice. Hate to have a new little bundle of joy at this late stage of life. The thought sends shivers down my spine. LOL

 

Oh, bubbles I sent you a PM back. Get it?

[Bubbles]

Yes mlc and replied back to you...........with some suggestion.

 

Never mind worrying about getting someone pregnant.....in this day and age? You need to worry about diesease FIRST and FOREMOST!

Right Moi?

 

Rubbers are our friends!!!! One for every finger, tongue, member..... and anything else you would like.......tee, hee, hee!

 

 

bubbles

[midlifecrazy]

Mrs and me did "engage" again. It was pretty much routine. OK but not very passionate. At least she didn't break into tears this time. But then I didn't ask her for a BJ either. Sorry to be crass but there it is.

 

She just absolutlely refuses to consider that. And that is something that I say I absolutely need. (She says want but don't need, whatever). So we're at an impasse there.

 

I saw a Dr Phil show a while back and there was guy on there complaining that his wife wouldn't give him oral. One of the things that struck me when they talked to her was something she said. It was"Do you know why all the brides have such big smiles on their faces as they walk down the aisle? It's because they never have to do THAT again!" I thought she was an arrogant biotch.

 

Dr Phil asked the guy if it was a deal breaker for him and he said it wasn't. Would have been for me, if she'd only done till she thought she had him tied up and then cut him off, wow.

 

We were so young when we got married that we hadn't even tried any kind of sexual variation. Hell, she was pregnant 6 weeks after I met her. Anyway I guess I grew sexually and she didn't. And what little experimentation I got her to try in our early days has long since gone by the board.

 

I honest to God don't know if she'll even give me a hand job. I'm betting no. I'm still not past or accepting of her refusal to do oral but if she can't even stroke me its time for an ultimatum. Get help because we can't, I can't, won't go on like this. Putting an end to this will just be a sad formality.

 

I had some health problems last year(everything's fine now) I asked Mrs if I hadn't made it if she ever would have gotten re-married. She said no because I was her husband and she didn't want anyone else. Go figure. She wants me but she doesn't WANT me.

 

Love campaign is in tatters and I feel like I'm struggling in the last ditches. Maybe its like LadyJ said about going along for years before and then trying to fix things and how if it doesn't seem to be working the deterioration of the relationship speeds up.