Preset Number or Failure?

[Mr Scorpio]

The common advice I read is 3-4 exercises per body part, 3-4 sets per exercise, 8-12 reps per set to reach failure. However, when I perform that routine, I can almost always perform more. That is to say I could go back and do another 5 sets of whatever exercise at a lighter weight.

 

Granted, I don't have a workout partner. As a result, there are some exercises I don't touch or can't go to failure on like bench press and squats (yes, yes, I know those are fundamental exercises).

 

So my question is, is there any advantage to sticking to the routine described above versus incorporating 'strip-sets' (i.e. whatever # of reps to failure at one weight, followed by dropping down to the next lowest weight and blasting to failure, then dropping again until you can't perform even at a very low weight)?

 

Personally, I love the strip-sets, especially considering I only hit each body part once per week.

[Tayla]

FAILURE? In what ways would anyone want to reach failure? The goal is slow and steady with variation. Not sure where the More reps ,more weights equals more muscle. Sometimes that simply is not the case. Its the oxygen rate, diet and protein established. I bike and adding another 10 miles each day can actually wear out the muscles ...instead of aiding the overall health.Anyways, please explain this failure concept as I fail at comprehending the inquiry stated.

[Priv]

Where do you get this advice?

 

 

The common advice is to start with compound lifts and pretty much stick with compound lifts.

 

 

Considering the way you train I assume you are doing this for looks because you are not getting much more out of it. So maybe some bodybuilders will chip in, but I am fairly certain even those say to start with compound lifts and bring up whatever you think should grow more with isolation exercises.

 

 

Compound lifts:

 

 

squat

press

bench press

deadlift

row (debatable in my opinion)

pull ups

clean

snatch

 

 

And variations thereof. Beauty of it is, do all these heavy and you don't want to do more than 3 sets and not more than 2 of the above in a single workout. Within a month you will also stop thinking in terms of body parts

 

 

Ps. I train without a spotter too. You certainly don't need 1 for the squat if you have those handles next to the squatting rack and I am sure you are not the only one at the gym. If you want to go for a max attempt at the bench press I am sure someone would love to spot for you for a minute.

[Mr Scorpio]

Anyways, please explain this failure concept as I fail at comprehending the inquiry stated.

 

Training to failure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Mr Scorpio]

Where do you get this advice?

 

Personal trainers.

 

Considering the way you train I assume you are doing this for looks because you are not getting much more out of it.

 

I get a good nights sleep, endorphins, and a cardio work out of it. But yes, my primary goal at this point is shedding fat.

 

I am familiar with the benefits of compound lifts. Frankly, I stay away from squats, deadlifts, cleans and snatch out of injury concern. I don't have decent form for these exercises, nor do I have health insurance.

 

I very much enjoy rows and pullups. I probably could recruit someone to spot me on bench, but I don't care for inconveniencing people. Everyone has headphones, everyone is in their own zone.

[Priv]

This may sound arrogant but that I don't mean to be, but most personal trainers (and I do mean most) don't have a clue about strenght training.

 

 

That said. If you train for endorphins, cardio and losing weight, how do you think that adds up to the feeling you could do a lot more even after the 3-4 exercises per body part, 3-4 sets per exercise, 8-12 reps per set to reach failure. It really doesn't.

 

 

So if you don't want to change exercises (which you should, I can understand the apprehension of not wanting to learn the clean and snatch, but the others are doable) start training a lot heavier. Find a weight which you can only lift say 5-6 reps of and do 3 sets of those. And progressively use more weight. Because the way you describe it now you are not hitting anything...

[thefooloftheyear]

Training to failure(or on the edge) is what seperates the ones that see results and the ones that dont....

 

Its as simple as this...

 

The human body is incredibly "adaptable"...If you do a particular set and you arent really struggling for the last few(of course while maintaining proper form) the body is just "going through the motions" and there will be little/no change...

 

The last few reps of every set should be such that you are struggling, sweating, face is red, veins popping..etc...Take a look at how many people in the gym that do this...very few....and they all look the same-day in and day out-year after year...The body cant "change" without this level of stress...I dont care what anyone says..

 

On my leg days, I can barely walk out of the gym...total wet noodles..Stress is what yeilds results....again...its important to not be at the point of injury, but anyone in any level of fitness can do this....and achieve results..

 

One more thing....Heavy, stressful training releases more natural testosterone...which builds muscle, depletes fat, and aids in better overall mood quality and vitality...

 

TFY

Edited September 2, 2014 by thefooloftheyear

[Tayla]

thanks Mr Scorpio for the educational link! It helped to understand.

 

Can't really find the positive in this form yet if its working with little to no long term damage then stick to it. Sounds like you are dedicated.

[Mr Scorpio]

The last few reps of every set should be such that you are struggling, sweating, face is red, veins popping..etc...

 

 

And I get to that point with the exercises that I'm performing. But I'm rarely sore the next day. I'm getting nowhere near enough protein for proper recovery, maybe 60g per day at 163lbs.

 

 

Now the last time I had a workout partner? Totally different story. Could barely walk for the next 3 days. But I can't get there on my own. At least not with the 3-4 exercises / 3-4 sets / 8-12 reps.

 

 

So I figure blast the hell out of the muscle? Once I can't go anymore pull-ups, I'll do lat pulldowns. Once I fail I drop the weight 20 pounds and do another set to failure. Repeat. Repeat. Until I can't even pull 50 lbs.

 

 

I'd like to think that I'm burning more calories and taxing the muscle. But then folks talk about "overtraining" and thus I'm not sure if my current path is a wise one.

[Mr Scorpio]

This may sound arrogant but that I don't mean to be, but most personal trainers (and I do mean most) don't have a clue about strenght training.

 

I doubt don't it. OTOH, it is hard for me to decide who to believe. It often seems the biggest dudes in my gym have the worst form. I was taught to do everything in a slow, controlled manner.

 

 

These guy just toss weights around. Swinging hips on barbell curls, doing dips with a itty-bitty range of motion. But it obviously worked for em.

[thefooloftheyear]

And I get to that point with the exercises that I'm performing. But I'm rarely sore the next day. I'm getting nowhere near enough protein for proper recovery, maybe 60g per day at 163lbs.

 

 

Now the last time I had a workout partner? Totally different story. Could barely walk for the next 3 days. But I can't get there on my own. At least not with the 3-4 exercises / 3-4 sets / 8-12 reps.

 

 

So I figure blast the hell out of the muscle? Once I can't go anymore pull-ups, I'll do lat pulldowns. Once I fail I drop the weight 20 pounds and do another set to failure. Repeat. Repeat. Until I can't even pull 50 lbs.

 

 

I'd like to think that I'm burning more calories and taxing the muscle. But then folks talk about "overtraining" and thus I'm not sure if my current path is a wise one.

 

 

You can try it for a while....overtraining is rare....That is usually a problem for guys that spend an hour on arms alone or do arms 6 times a week...

 

If your form remains pretty good, and you are getting proper rest, working a muscle to fatigue can be beneficial...Its also very important to stay mentally focused on the particular bodypart while training...I know for me, if I train, say, chest...then in the entire movement, I am envisioning blood flowing through every fiber...It works for me...

 

Yes, you probably have a bad(or lacking) diet...If you train pretty hard, then you should consume a g protien per pound of bodyweight...Best to get your protien from sources like lean meats, eggs, chicken, etc...than from protein drinks...I use a single post workout drink 60g protien and consume 6500 cals a day and 275g protein at 215#...broken up over around 7-8 meals..

 

TFY

[thefooloftheyear]

I doubt don't it. OTOH, it is hard for me to decide who to believe. It often seems the biggest dudes in my gym have the worst form. I was taught to do everything in a slow, controlled manner.

 

 

These guy just toss weights around. Swinging hips on barbell curls, doing dips with a itty-bitty range of motion. But it obviously worked for em.

 

Its all about genetics, drugs, or a combination of both...Some guys can look at a dumbell and get huge while others have to kill themselves for the smallest gains....

 

In this game, its not always "you get out of it what you put into it"...cruel in a way, but oh so true...

 

TFY

[Mr Scorpio]

You can try it for a while....overtraining is rare....That is usually a problem for guys that spend an hour on arms alone or do arms 6 times a week...

 

 

Well, I do arms and shoulders for an hour, but with gaps to breathe in between sets. After starting this thread, I guess my question relates to diminishing returns.

 

 

My logic is that since I have too much time on my hands, I might as well spend it exercising to get down to my ideal weight. But if I'm somehow better off limiting the amount of exercise I do, then...

[thefooloftheyear]

Well, I do arms and shoulders for an hour, but with gaps to breathe in between sets. After starting this thread, I guess my question relates to diminishing returns.

 

 

My logic is that since I have too much time on my hands, I might as well spend it exercising to get down to my ideal weight. But if I'm somehow better off limiting the amount of exercise I do, then...

 

 

You are over 30, no? Have your testosterone levels checked...if you have fallen off a cliff there,then you are just pissing into the ocean, as far as trying to get where you want to be.....Very important...It can also be the reason why you are feeling like shyt mentally(re: rant section thread)...take this advice and see a doctor..

 

TFY

[Mr Scorpio]

You are over 30, no? Have your testosterone levels checked...if you have fallen off a cliff there,then you are just pissing into the ocean, as far as trying to get where you want to be.....Very important...It can also be the reason why you are feeling like shyt mentally(re: rant section thread)...take this advice and see a doctor..

 

 

Eh, I can't afford to see a doctor for something so frivolous (re: rant section thread). I'm not pissing yet: my strength, cardio, and flexibility are all increasing. Thanks for the suggestion though, I'll keep it in mind for the future.

[EasyHeart]

Train to failure; otherwise you're just wasting your time.

 

Use a safety rack and you can squat to failure. Or do deadlifts instead. Use dumbbells for your bench.

 

If you train to failure you won't be able to lift for more than 20-30 minutes. You just won't. If you can go longer than that without being exhausted, you aren't training hard enough.

[Emilia]

I am familiar with the benefits of compound lifts. Frankly, I stay away from squats, deadlifts, cleans and snatch out of injury concern. I don't have decent form for these exercises, nor do I have health insurance.

 

I very much enjoy rows and pullups. I probably could recruit someone to spot me on bench, but I don't care for inconveniencing people. Everyone has headphones, everyone is in their own zone.

 

Depends what your aim is but I'd say generally speaking, if you shy away from the big compound lifts, you are wasting your time.

[Thruster]

Mr:

 

 

Strip sets -- Drop sets - ETC:

 

 

no remember this

 

 

It is for size 100% -- not power

not endurance

 

 

just for the show

 

 

 

 

warm up - say bench 135lb - 10

175 - 4

 

 

200 - 2

 

 

then hit 10lbs under you last max -- have the plates stacked in 5's / 10 's

workout should last close to 3/4 minutes

 

 

as you fail each lift - strip off 10 /20 lbs and back to it

all the way down to just screaming at pressing the bar - 5 times

 

 

the pump will show

 

 

but you will not get strong -- just big

[HermioneG]

I go to failure. That feeling where I know at that moment I just cannot do it again.

[HermioneG]

Train to failure; otherwise you're just wasting your time.

 

Use a safety rack and you can squat to failure. Or do deadlifts instead. Use dumbbells for your bench.

 

If you train to failure you won't be able to lift for more than 20-30 minutes. You just won't. If you can go longer than that without being exhausted, you aren't training hard enough.

 

Ayup!! Exactly!!

[Mr Scorpio]

If you train to failure you won't be able to lift for more than 20-30 minutes. You just won't. If you can go longer than that without being exhausted, you aren't training hard enough.

 

The problem I'm having is that I don't know how to train hard enough when I'm training alone.

 

I did arms and shoulders last night. I was in the gym for a little over 90 minutes, so that includes rest time between sets. I was not exhausted when I left. I am not sore today. I did at least 6 sets of shoulder presses to failure w/in the 6-12 rep range.

[learning_slowly]

The problem I'm having is that I don't know how to train hard enough when I'm training alone.

 

I did arms and shoulders last night. I was in the gym for a little over 90 minutes, so that includes rest time between sets. I was not exhausted when I left. I am not sore today. I did at least 6 sets of shoulder presses to failure w/in the 6-12 rep range.

 

You need more weight. I think there's some study's which show anything over 1 hour will actually cause less growth.

 

Also,compound moves are important, but I usually notice the main gains when I stop 5x5 as your body adapts.

 

But only you can try different methods and see if your body responds and allows you to obtain your goals. If it was easy, everybody would look good and be fit.

[Priv]

There is a very good/comprehensive article just published today on TNATION about this subject.

 

 

T Nation | How Hard Do You Need to Work Out?

[Andy_K]

If you can be at the gym for over an hour and still feel like you've got more to give, you're not pushing yourself hard enough.

 

Here's a benchmark - see how many pull-ups (or chin ups if you prefer) you can do completely fresh at the start of a workout. Do another set at the end of your workout, after a rest. If you can do more than half what you could at the start of the workout, you haven't pushed yourself hard enough. By the time you finish your muscles should feel like they've got nothing left to give.

 

You want heavy compound exercises for lower rep ranges, squats in particular are excellent. Isolation work just won't push you enough. It's good if you're recovering from an injury or some sort, but otherwise try to avoid if you can.

 

I'd always aim to be at failure by the last set of any exercise at the least.

[Priv]

If you can be at the gym for over an hour and still feel like you've got more to give, you're not pushing yourself hard enough.

 

Here's a benchmark - see how many pull-ups (or chin ups if you prefer) you can do completely fresh at the start of a workout. Do another set at the end of your workout, after a rest. If you can do more than half what you could at the start of the workout, you haven't pushed yourself hard enough. By the time you finish your muscles should feel like they've got nothing left to give.

 

You want heavy compound exercises for lower rep ranges, squats in particular are excellent. Isolation work just won't push you enough. It's good if you're recovering from an injury or some sort, but otherwise try to avoid if you can.

 

I'd always aim to be at failure by the last set of any exercise at the least.

 

Except you don't want to fail in the squat, clean or bench press (unless you have a spotter with the bp). Deadlift, presses and isolation exercises are ok to fail at. Ever failed in the squat? It is not a good feeling and I encourage people to try it out with a moderately heavy weight pretending just so you don't panic when you do fail.

 

 

I am talking true failure btw. Not form breakdown, that comes before that but is ok when maxing in my opinion.