Textbook until now... [update]

[LondonMM]

Though its appreciated, the majority of advice on here seems related to my marriage and why I need to divorce rather than my original question regarding what I should do with my MOW. As I said its appreciated, but one for another post on another forum.

 

Re my affair, advice seems split between a) its going to go on forever as we're on a rollercoaster, b) its died a death and she never loved me enough anyway.

 

Now I'm as pragmatic as they come and not one for rose tinted glasses, but surely 5 years of close friendship, love, romance, intimacy can't be faked or so easily vanish? Even bipolar people don't swing that much. I''m not trying to justify what we had or even cling onto anything - I just don't think its right to dismiss a relationship that taken on its own without the deception and lying to our partners etc was incredibly good.

[waterwoman]

Though its appreciated, the majority of advice on here seems related to my marriage and why I need to divorce rather than my original question regarding what I should do with my MOW. As I said its appreciated, but one for another post on another forum.

 

Re my affair, advice seems split between a) its going to go on forever as we're on a rollercoaster, b) its died a death and she never loved me enough anyway.

 

Now I'm as pragmatic as they come and not one for rose tinted glasses, but surely 5 years of close friendship, love, romance, intimacy can't be faked or so easily vanish? Even bipolar people don't swing that much. I''m not trying to justify what we had or even cling onto anything - I just don't think its right to dismiss a relationship that taken on its own without the deception and lying to our partners etc was incredibly good.

 

But why does it matter whether strangers on t'internet 'dismiss' your affair or not. It's in your hands and those of your OW. Regardless of how good it is, it looks as if she's developing severely cold feet. She might love you to bits but decide that she also still loves her H and is no longer prepared to put his happiness and her marriage at risk, she might have loved you but for some reason her feelings have changed (it happens - presumably you loved your wife once).... there could be a myriad of reasons for her change in behaviour. In the end it matters not how good the relationship was, it is as it is NOW and that is what you have to deal with. Talk to her, ask her what's going on and make a decision based on that.

 

BTW may I just take issue with this:

 

"a relationship that taken on its own without the deception and lying to our partners etc was incredibly good".

 

IMO in this situation you cannot take the relationship on it's own - the bald fact that you are cheating on two spouses and risking two marriages, cannot be ignored. It's the big fat elephant in the room.

[Owl]

Because she's as addicted as you are...and struggles with having the strength to end it.

 

The solution is simple. Tell her it was great while it lasted but clearly it has run it's course. Wish her well...and end it.

 

My advice was directly related to your affair.

 

And I think it's still accurate.

[Bittersweetie]

 

Re my affair, advice seems split between a) its going to go on forever as we're on a rollercoaster, b) its died a death and she never loved me enough anyway.

 

 

I would have to say that neither of you loved each other enough, to leave your spouses and give each other 100%. One thing, looking back, I didn't enjoy about my A is being in two half relationships. I've found that one full relationship (with my H) is 1000 times better than what I had during that time.

 

And I believe that no, you cannot go back to being close friends. That lined was crossed and is in the past. Maybe if two people have had an above board relationship...but an affair? No way. That's just even more drama and such on top of things to go back to being "friends."

[beach]

Now I'm as pragmatic as they come and not one for rose tinted glasses, but surely 5 years of close friendship, love, romance, intimacy can't be faked or so easily vanish? Even bipolar people don't swing that much. I''m not trying to justify what we had or even cling onto anything - I just don't think its right to dismiss a relationship that taken on its own without the deception and lying to our partners etc was incredibly good.

 

 

 

It may not be "right" to dismiss any relationship that has all that. That's beside the point when you consider the fact that those two people are married to someone else.

 

Both of you kept up the pretenses within the marriages and filled in your needs outside the marriages. That's really just using two relationships to act as if one is sufficient.

 

IF one is sufficient - then the second relationship wouldn't be necessary.

 

Your M isn't enough for you. I get that - so end the M.

 

Whether or not you think your OW will determine that her affair with you is "enough" to divorce her husband remains to be seen. For now it looks like it's "no" on that front.

 

Do people suddenly turn the switch off on their emotions? Sure, it happens. But why that happens - that person may never allow you to understand "why" they can participate that way.

 

She's used you - you've used her. You want her to care more than she cares.

 

You can't "make her care more".

 

The one who cares the least holds the most power. Right now it looks like it's your OW.

[lastTrainHome]

op:

 

How strong do you think your relationship with the ow is?

[2sunny]

I met S 15 years ago at university. For the first 10 years I must admit we weren't that close - the occasional lunch, mutual friend's parties, likes on Facebook etc. We went to each other's weddings, and once we had kids, went out as families a few times.

 

5 years ago she went through a rough patch in her marriage and for some reason started to open up to me. I suppose I did the same. Things changed, conversation become far more honest, meetings became more frequent, we admitted we weren't always telling our respective partners. Even if there was emotional intimacy there wasn't any physical boundaries crossed. It just felt good to have a close friend. A textbook emotional affair. Obviously in hindsight that was never going to be sustainable. I'm actually surprised we stayed that way for three years.

 

2 years ago lunch turned to a walk in a park on a summer's evening which led to a kiss and admissions of love. Our meeting to discuss the next day led to our having sex. However other than the physical nothing else changed - our friendship was as close as ever.

 

These last two years we've experienced much of what I've read on here - yo-yoing, guilt, discussions of leaving our partners vs staying until kids are older, little breaks of NC and coming back together with a bang. However even at our most antagonistic there was love and affection and appreciation we had each other. We also tried to maintain our domestic lives with our respective families until we decided what to do next. Its a cliche to say but I made more of an effort with my wife and kids. I suspect whatever happens I'll end up divorcing my wife as it wouldn't be fair my staying.

 

Three months ago something changed. We'd just spent a wonderful afternoon in a hotel room and as it was her birthday approaching I asked her to arrange another date so we could do something special. She exploded, accused me of pressuring her. I suspected she felt guilty so gave her space, and she after a week she came back. Sort of. Though we'd continue to speak and meet she stopped being as open, telling me weeks later after important events / life issues rather than immediately as she used to. We met again a few days ago (after my pleading) in which she appeared disinterested.

 

I asked if she had tired of us, tired of me, whether she wanted to end things yet she refused to answer - accused me of being needy and demanding. However saying I should give her a couple of weeks.

 

In my opinion the desire to do us seemed to have vanished, perhaps she's made her choice to stay with her family..which I don't begrudge. If she told me that I'd let her go if it made her happy. I just don't understand why she'd drag things out asking for more time given she seems disinterested?

 

After re reading your original post - it's possible she has a new OM.

[lastTrainHome]

Though its appreciated, the majority of advice on here seems related to my marriage and why I need to divorce rather than my original question regarding what I should do with my MOW. As I said its appreciated, but one for another post on another forum.

 

Re my affair, advice seems split between a) its going to go on forever as we're on a rollercoaster, b) its died a death and she never loved me enough anyway.

 

Now I'm as pragmatic as they come and not one for rose tinted glasses, but surely 5 years of close friendship, love, romance, intimacy can't be faked or so easily vanish? Even bipolar people don't swing that much. I''m not trying to justify what we had or even cling onto anything - I just don't think its right to dismiss a relationship that taken on its own without the deception and lying to our partners etc was incredibly good.

 

 

I guess you haven't been here long enough. I have been to several forums and each forum has it's own collective rules of thumbs.

 

One rule of thumb here is that you should get a divorce if you are not happy in a marriage. How about kids? It does not matter since your kids are already hurt. Never mind the kids often do not know anything going on between the parents.

 

In any case, if your ow is your best friend and she started to pull away, you deserve an answer from her. Only she knows what is going on in her mind.

[LondonMM]

I guess you haven't been here long enough. I have been to several forums and each forum has it's own collective rules of thumbs.

 

One rule of thumb here is that you should get a divorce if you are not happy in a marriage. How about kids? It does not matter since your kids are already hurt. Never mind the kids often do not know anything going on between the parents.

 

In any case, if your ow is your best friend and she started to pull away, you deserve an answer from her. Only she knows what is going on in her mind.

 

Rules of thumb are far too generic when dealing with so many variables. As I said divorce is inevitable for me but will only occur if my kids aren't effected. Right now my family is enjoying the blissful ignorance of my faking it so any bombs will need to be dropped lightly..for their sakes alone.

 

As for the OW. I miss her. I miss my best friend. It seems strange not to turn to her with the trivial and serious. I'm hurt and angry and trying not to take it out on those around me. I feel emptiness and alone and no amount of distraction - work, hugs from the kids, other friends can shake that feeling. I feel betrayed by her..whereas I understood everytime she pulled away feeling guilt this is different..she has such hate and anger when she speaks to me. I'm conflicted - I want her to be happy, I want her back, I don't want her back because everything has changed. I know we'll eventually meet and that makes me nervous. My dreams of a future with her have all but vanished and having to change all my plans is daunting. I'm so upset and can't tell anyone (other than you guys) because no one else knew what she means to me.

[lastTrainHome]

Rules of thumb are far too generic when dealing with so many variables. As I said divorce is inevitable for me but will only occur if my kids aren't effected. Right now my family is enjoying the blissful ignorance of my faking it so any bombs will need to be dropped lightly..for their sakes alone.

 

As for the OW. I miss her. I miss my best friend. It seems strange not to turn to her with the trivial and serious. I'm hurt and angry and trying not to take it out on those around me. I feel emptiness and alone and no amount of distraction - work, hugs from the kids, other friends can shake that feeling. I feel betrayed by her..whereas I understood everytime she pulled away feeling guilt this is different..she has such hate and anger when she speaks to me. I'm conflicted - I want her to be happy, I want her back, I don't want her back because everything has changed. I know we'll eventually meet and that makes me nervous. My dreams of a future with her have all but vanished and having to change all my plans is daunting. I'm so upset and can't tell anyone (other than you guys) because no one else knew what she means to me.

 

I was in your shoes. My AP started to pull away once I said the "love" word. Then the cold-and-hot pattern, which I guess is typical for married AP as they bounce between their marriage and the AP even though I said I respect their marriage. In my case I also suspect my AP suffers from some mild form of borderline personality disorder, or at least behaves like one. I felt so sad too because AP meant so much to me but I am trying to come to terms with it, but there was no hate from either sides.

Edited September 13, 2014 by lastTrainHome

[beach]

You stated:

 

 

 

Now I'm as pragmatic as they come and not one for rose tinted glasses, but surely 5 years of close friendship, love, romance, intimacy can't be faked or so easily vanish?

 

Yet you faked your M and feel that that's vanished, right? The affair isn't any different. Every relationship has a beginning and end - knowing when the end is -is key. Looks like your OW handed you the ending. Accept that. Maybe she even used you to get over the rough patch in her marriage.

 

Even bipolar people don't swing that much. I''m not trying to justify what we had or even cling onto anything

 

Yes, you certainly are trying to cling on to what the relationship WAS.

 

Get honest - you are clinging on to it when she's ended it.

[lastTrainHome]

You stated:

 

 

 

 

 

Yet you faked your M and feel that that's vanished, right? The affair isn't any different. Every relationship has a beginning and end - knowing when the end is -is key. Looks like your OW handed you the ending. Accept that. Maybe she even used you to get over the rough patch in her marriage.

 

 

 

Yes, you certainly are trying to cling on to what the relationship WAS.

 

Get honest - you are clinging on to it when she's ended it.

 

Thanks. I just realized this could apply to my case as well.

 

Still it felt so sad and haven't slept much since the break up.

[CaryAlston]

If you are not happy with your wife, you owe it to her to be honest and tell her. If your marriage is over, end it cleanly so you can both be happy.

 

Let your AP go; it's clear she's not into you anymore for whatever reason (stay w/ family, another lover, who knows?).

 

Affairs turning into marriage? Like Melanie Griffith, who cheated on Don Johnson, married her lover Antonio Banderas and is now divorcing him because he allegedly cheated on her? Why on earth would you marry someone who cheated on her spouse? If she cheated with you, she'll cheat on you, too. A mistress who cheats with the husband is as much as fault as he is. Not exactly an ideal lifetime partner.

[CaryAlston]

Agree with lastTrainhome:

 

op:

 

How strong do you think your relationship with the ow is?

 

 

OP, Just because you're the other man doesn't mean you are the only other man. If she cheats on her husband, what stops her from cheating on a lover?

[LondonMM]

You stated:

 

Yes, you certainly are trying to cling on to what the relationship WAS.

 

Get honest - you are clinging on to it when she's ended it.

 

She ended it...spectacularly.

 

An argument over IM. The usual. She admits she's feeling broody and she wants another baby. With her husband because only another baby will make her happy. That only having a baby matters to her right now. That her husband refused but that she intends to work on him.

 

I tell her that if a baby would make her complete then I'd be happy for her however obviously wouldn't be happy with her being regularly intimate with her husband and that another baby would in essence mean a future together once the kids are older would be further delayed / unlikely.

 

My saying that was obviously wrong because she tells me we've over. That she'll meet to explain but doesn't want to talk further.

 

We finally meet a few days later, a coffee, public place. God she looked breathtaking. She was...polite? No anger, no emotion, no affection. Disturbing given I'm used to her high's and lows.

 

She told me she's had enough. That we don't work. That when I told her that she was making me upset it wasn't attractive, that my implying that the recent stresses in her work / family / marital life have impacted us was both patronising and more controlling than her husband. That my inability to be just a friend made her feel she was trading sex for friendship. It wasn't all aimed at me..she admitted she was crazy, selfish and will cull anything from her life that doesn't make her happy, including her husband who's she's contemplating divorcing. I assume thats because he initially refused to have another baby with her..but knowing her I'm sure she'll get her way.

 

She told me this could be temporary. That a she may change her mind in a week, month, year. Or never. But thats how she feels now.

 

I ask given everything going on in her life whether she still wants me as a friend. She says no.

 

I ask if we can meet again, in a month given I might be right. That perhaps this is all about stress and broodiness. She agrees.

 

Yes I'm clinging. Irrational and pathetic I know.

 

Oh she said something, an uncharacteristic phrase, which made me think she not only has read this post but knows it was written by me. If thats the case, S, hope you don't mind my writing this. I love you.

[lastTrainHome]

She ended it...spectacularly.

 

An argument over IM. The usual. She admits she's feeling broody and she wants another baby. With her husband because only another baby will make her happy. That only having a baby matters to her right now. That her husband refused but that she intends to work on him.

 

I tell her that if a baby would make her complete then I'd be happy for her however obviously wouldn't be happy with her being regularly intimate with her husband and that another baby would in essence mean a future together once the kids are older would be further delayed / unlikely.

 

My saying that was obviously wrong because she tells me we've over. That she'll meet to explain but doesn't want to talk further.

 

We finally meet a few days later, a coffee, public place. God she looked breathtaking. She was...polite? No anger, no emotion, no affection. Disturbing given I'm used to her high's and lows.

 

She told me she's had enough. That we don't work. That when I told her that she was making me upset it wasn't attractive, that my implying that the recent stresses in her work / family / marital life have impacted us was both patronising and more controlling than her husband. That my inability to be just a friend made her feel she was trading sex for friendship. It wasn't all aimed at me..she admitted she was crazy, selfish and will cull anything from her life that doesn't make her happy, including her husband who's she's contemplating divorcing. I assume thats because he initially refused to have another baby with her..but knowing her I'm sure she'll get her way.

 

She told me this could be temporary. That a she may change her mind in a week, month, year. Or never. But thats how she feels now.

 

I ask given everything going on in her life whether she still wants me as a friend. She says no.

 

I ask if we can meet again, in a month given I might be right. That perhaps this is all about stress and broodiness. She agrees.

 

Yes I'm clinging. Irrational and pathetic I know.

 

Oh she said something, an uncharacteristic phrase, which made me think she not only has read this post but knows it was written by me. If thats the case, S, hope you don't mind my writing this. I love you.

 

 

A big hug.

 

 

A break might leave both of you in a better place to make a plan for the future.

 

 

My AP also moved away but left a few hot-and-cold balloons for me to play with. In all reality I felt I was kicked to the curb and AP was not much into me in the first place. A lopsided situation.

[herself]

In that months time I hope you are well on the road to healing. Its been almost a month since our A ended and the exact description of your feelings anger, betrayal, hurt that a thing can change so quickly when we were once eachothers favorite place to talk, and share emotion and love and now the comfort is gone...but my feelings are fading...

I had to greive while still being 100% for my spouse and its just a painful cruel thing.

It's getting better for me and my eap has lasted years longer than your A.

I'd count her out. It sounds like she is set.

It sounds like even if she rekindled you would walk on eggshells as she is clear she will cut ties any minute she isnt perfectly happy.

And those who are planning to leave a spouse arent at the same time planning a baby with that same spouse.

Its understandable for you to cling and hope now...but it's just as well you accept she's gone and get the tears and anger out so you can finally let go. She seems to be cold...you go cold now for her. Im so sorry. It's an aweful loss I know first hand. Be well. Be patient with your healing.

[LondonMM]

In that months time I hope you are well on the road to healing. Its been almost a month since our A ended and the exact description of your feelings anger, betrayal, hurt that a thing can change so quickly when we were once eachothers favorite place to talk, and share emotion and love and now the comfort is gone...but my feelings are fading...

I had to greive while still being 100% for my spouse and its just a painful cruel thing.

It's getting better for me and my eap has lasted years longer than your A.

I'd count her out. It sounds like she is set.

It sounds like even if she rekindled you would walk on eggshells as she is clear she will cut ties any minute she isnt perfectly happy.

And those who are planning to leave a spouse arent at the same time planning a baby with that same spouse.

Its understandable for you to cling and hope now...but it's just as well you accept she's gone and get the tears and anger out so you can finally let go. She seems to be cold...you go cold now for her. Im so sorry. It's an aweful loss I know first hand. Be well. Be patient with your healing.

 

Thank you. Must admit it hasn't fully hit me yet; I don't think I believe its actually over. Still checking constantly to see if she's messaged, disappointed when she hasn't. Happy for the distraction of work during the day, but the longing preventing sleep, going to bed later and later. Crankier, with my spouse, my kids. Distant. I really must work on that.

 

But no acceptance - an underlying belief in what we had, what what we mean to one another, what I mean to her...even if everything she has said and done contradicts that. I don't think I could accept it being over even if I wanted to. Even writing this down here makes me realise what I lost cause I am!

 

Perhaps for my own sanity I need to have hope that she'll return one day...even if she does have a baby, rather than face anger, hurt, loss? Is hope really so damaging?

[herself]

Thank you. Must admit it hasn't fully hit me yet; I don't think I believe its actually over. Still checking constantly to see if she's messaged, disappointed when she hasn't. Happy for the distraction of work during the day, but the longing preventing sleep, going to bed later and later. Crankier, with my spouse, my kids. Distant. I really must work on that.

 

But no acceptance - an underlying belief in what we had, what what we mean to one another, what I mean to her...even if everything she has said and done contradicts that. I don't think I could accept it being over even if I wanted to. Even writing this down here makes me realise what I lost cause I am!

 

Perhaps for my own sanity I need to have hope that she'll return one day...even if she does have a baby, rather than face anger, hurt, loss? Is hope really so damaging?

 

I believe we are twins at this moment. Every feeling matches.

Its a sheer shock and disbelief. It really shatters your system.

Its like the moments of anger help me the most cause to feel my feelings are changing.

For me, my ap still writes almost daily and this is cruel too as its extremely platonic and all I read really despite the friendly cheery messages from him is "Im ok without us" "glad your continued friendship exists and you dont hate me for ending our love"

But I think yes hope can be bad because it keeps the pain so close and the longing so alive.

Im sorry shes done this to your heart.

[LondonMM]

I don't think I could sustain a platonic friendship, in fact I know I couldn't. I suspect was proven these last few months when I'd eventually turn superficial conversation into requests for meeting and complaining about the lack of romance and intimacy.And though I was glad to have her around for the daily updates we were both miserable.

 

Perhaps why I'm not angry...she did the right thing. And perhaps its why I maintain hope that she may one day come back when she's ready to be in that romantic place again.

 

Is your relationship confined to writing to one another or do you still regularly meet. Where the former would be painful enough for me, the latter would be impossible.

[herself]

I don't think I could sustain a platonic friendship, in fact I know I couldn't. I suspect was proven these last few months when I'd eventually turn superficial conversation into requests for meeting and complaining about the lack of romance and intimacy.And though I was glad to have her around for the daily updates we were both miserable.

 

Perhaps why I'm not angry...she did the right thing. And perhaps its why I maintain hope that she may one day come back when she's ready to be in that romantic place again.

 

Is your relationship confined to writing to one another or do you still regularly meet. Where the former would be painful enough for me, the latter would be impossible.

 

She did do the right thing its just always tough to imagine that being seperated from the one you love is right.

I asked my xeap in our final talk to end the romance...he said "what we had was so romantic" I asked "how will you make peace with never having that level with another person (besides w) again"?

He said I guess I (we) have to find comfort in the fact that we both married good people and focus on that.

I guess maybe your AP feels she can maybe make her marriage work. I dont understand wheres she is at but yes, she did the right thing.

We met about once every few months for coffee or a beer. Ironically I saw him 3 times in the ladt month...once while with my h and we just all hung as friends for a huge city event...

Once on 9/11 as we vowed to always connect this day as we worked together and spent the origional tragic day together...and once by sheer chance in a place I never dreamed he would be...I looked up and there he was...

All three times I saw him were painful and awkward. I couldn't read his eyes...we weren't the same...its just all unreal.

He writes daily and also called twice last week.

I think he is really just trying to soften the blow for me.

The last time he ended it he went cold and silent...never contacting and responded coldly to an email from me so I went silent for 4 months.

I am thinking the not talking was hard and sad...we became near strangers but this might be harder? I don't know.

[LondonMM]

All three times I saw him were painful and awkward. I couldn't read his eyes...we weren't the same...its just all unreal.

 

This was one of the most startling aspects of our last meet, not being able to gauge her. As you said it suddenly doesn't feel the same. Even during heightened arguments there was always love (or arousal) in her eyes which was reassuring. But her indifference was disquieting. Its the one think I'm nervous about for our next meeting.

 

That said I'd prefer to have her in my life than not. I've done the latter too and it was a dark period for me. But I know she's one to cull rather than maintain / fix so I don't think I've got a choice either way. I suspect its lose-lose for us so a moot point regardless!

[herself]

Referring to your point about it being lose lose...that's why I suggested you just let the hope go as painful as it is...let the reality shatter the hope. If you can. I think the 'dead' eyes to me were a sign of indifference.

Though it was a shock to me..it wasn't a shock to him.

I believe he was preparing himself to gain the courage to pull the plug.

I was blindly blissfully just sharing love and happiness never hearing the low whistle of the oncoming train. I too take comfort (to a tiny degree) that he did the right thing as you said she did. I guess my argument was how could true love ever be wrong but it doesn't matter now. He was just writing to me...no doubt expected me to continue throughout the workday.

I just wished him a nice day. Meaning you dont get to keep writing all day for my comfort and support while I am still patching my heart together and getting used to the idea of you no longer loving me.

[LondonMM]

I think its unfair (to them) to think they don't love us. I suspect they do, but they have their own realities and emotional wants and desires to consider. Don't get me wrong I'm a die hard heart on sleeve romantic and believe love conquers all, but even I appreciate that affairs of the heart are difficult to sustain, and have unfavourable chances of consistent success.

 

Perhaps his writing to you is also for his benefit - to keep you in his life in whatever way he currently can. That sounds far more hopeful than cutting you out completely..or wanting a baby with his spouse!

 

It was heavenly when her wants and needs were aligned to mine, however its an all or nothing commitment. I was prioritised. What is certain however is we're not their current priorities.

[herself]

I absolutely KNOW I was loved.

The love was so strong it left me breathless.

The magic of that same page same thought often left me breathless and so often he said he was on cloud nine.

It can't just go away but its as he said it would be unrealistic to think we could just continue that way forever. I agree but then I don't.

Every now and again I would check in on his guilt levels...make sure he didn't need a break or to scale back. He said he hadn't been thinking at all along those lines and that it only added to life.

I dont know it seemed the craziest time to end it.

I think it had gotten to real.

And in your ap case she may have tired of the feeling she was "cheating" on you as she was trying for a baby. I wonder why she didn't think to leave her spouse and try with YOU?

How can you see her and not fear opening up that wound again?

You must just have to know if her eyes at that time would tell you anything?

My guess is it will take you right back to square one of healing.

I dont believe I will ever see him again.

In a way, I dont want to. I wanna heal.