M30USA Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 I'm required to take a philosophy course as a prerequisite for my school program. We have just learned about the "Sophists", who were a group of philosophers shortly before Socrates. I am amazed at how much their views resemble modern thought. They deny the existence of absolute truth and, more specifically, believe that truth is merely that which allows an individual to "succeed" or "prosper" in his personal affairs. In other words, they believed truth is whatever gets you wealthy. They also believed in rhetoric, or the use of persuasive argument, to decide what truth is. In their view, the truth is whatever wins in an argument (such as in court, etc.) Modern Christianity reeks of Sophist philosophy. I believe a recent Barna group poll said that, while most Americans do believe in God, only about 30% believe in absolute truth. This data includes Christians, since most Americans identify as Christian. Are Christians, like ancient Sophists, teaching that truth is whatever brings success? We might get very tricky with words and substitute success for "blessings". Whatever we call it, it's all the same. Truth is truth regardless if it makes us rich or poor, happy or sad. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
todreaminblue Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 i am christian ....i love philosophy......i believe truth to be something that enriches your life and makes you wiser even when the truth is difficult to follow or believe it still makes you wiser ....richer for knowing...i believe accumulating wealth and or success in worldly ways....isnt a handle on truth.....might be when you lose it all....and find that you have to live life without and strive for happiness regardless......when you lose success and then lose all the friends you thought you had as friends.....your home your life as you know it......and then shy away from distruths you were led to believe in by personal success, status and financial gain.....i think when you have nothing, no one and hav elost all hope of ever havign any success....and god is there for you ....you see christianity as being what is the saving grace in your eternal life that doesnt end in pockets in shrouds......so that would be in truth absolute.................deb 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted September 13, 2014 Author Share Posted September 13, 2014 i am christian ....i love philosophy......i believe truth to be something that enriches your life and makes you wiser even when the truth is difficult to follow or believe it still makes you wiser ....richer for knowing...i believe accumulating wealth and or success in worldly ways....isnt a handle on truth.....might be when you lose it all....and find that you have to live life without and strive for happiness regardless......when you lose success and then lose all the friends you thought you had as friends.....your home your life as you know it......and then shy away from distruths you were led to believe in by personal success, status and financial gain.....i think when you have nothing, no one and hav elost all hope of ever havign any success....and god is there for you ....you see christianity as being what is the saving grace in your eternal life that doesnt end in pockets in shrouds......so that would be in truth absolute.................deb Yes. And thankfully Socrates came along and straightened out the Sophists by exposing their error. Did you know Socrates was KILLED for this? Read up on his trial. I swear it bears striking resemblance to the trial of Jesus. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
todreaminblue Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Yes. And thankfully Socrates came along and straightened out the Sophists by exposing their error. Did you know Socrates was KILLED for this? Read up on his trial. I swear it bears striking resemblance to the trial of Jesus. i will mousa i know socrates as one of the powerhouse greats.....i don't know much about his philosophies.....i have always wanted to study philosophy......along with theology and sciences i have no idea really what branch to swing on......i just keep getting wait not yet...... when i pray...i just know i have to study and understand the gospels first and they are huge .....so many points of reference and tangents to explore.....i am seriously thinking about theology though ......... i will check socrates out...my ancestor was a philosopher.....g.k chesterton......i respect his ideas......i like the thinkers...i like to think and be challenged ...how are you finding your course...what is it exactly you are studyign right now.....the name?..deb 1 Link to post Share on other sites
endlessabyss Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 "Christianity is Platonism for the masses" -Nietzsche Everything stemmed from the Greeks. If you look back in time, all the ideas we have now are a rehash of the past. I am proud to be one of their descendants. Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted September 13, 2014 Author Share Posted September 13, 2014 i will mousa i know socrates as one of the powerhouse greats.....i don't know much about his philosophies.....i have always wanted to study philosophy......along with theology and sciences i have no idea really what branch to swing on......i just keep getting wait not yet...... when i pray...i just know i have to study and understand the gospels first and they are huge .....so many points of reference and tangents to explore.....i am seriously thinking about theology though ......... i will check socrates out...my ancestor was a philosopher.....g.k chesterton......i respect his ideas......i like the thinkers...i like to think and be challenged ...how are you finding your course...what is it exactly you are studyign right now.....the name?..deb Really? I read "Orthodoxy" by GK Chesterton. So how are you related to him? You must be of English/British descent then. CS Lewis cited Chesteron as one of his main influences. At one time, CS Lewis said "Everlasting Man" by Chesterton was his single favorite book. Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted September 13, 2014 Author Share Posted September 13, 2014 Everything stemmed from the Greeks. You're broadbrushing. I could make the same case for the Hebrews. Link to post Share on other sites
todreaminblue Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Really? I read "Orthodoxy" by GK Chesterton. So how are you related to him? You must be of English/British descent then. CS Lewis cited Chesteron as one of his main influences. At one time, CS Lewis said "Everlasting Man" by Chesterton was his single favorite book. On my maternal side....theres a book in the mitchell library dedicated to my family....my great aunt was a historian.who extensively researched our family history............yes i am of british and also german descent...wilhelm kirchner.. Karl Ludwig Wilhelm Kirchner ..so i am a mutt.....smilin....but i am an aussie born and bred ....and by a wanderer gypsies feet am led....don't know where i got the gypsy in me...most of my family have been a bit travelish by nature.....most of the people on my mothers side are thinkers though....they lucked out with me...kidding......ill do them proud one day.....deb... Link to post Share on other sites
Ronni_W Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 Are Christians, like ancient Sophists, teaching that truth is whatever brings success? We might get very tricky with words and substitute success for "blessings". Whatever we call it, it's all the same. Truth is truth regardless if it makes us rich or poor, happy or sad. No, FACTS are facts, regardless. Truths are foundational to a system of philosophy or beliefs. All such systems depend on truths to support itself, but not necessarily on facts. Christians use truths, not facts, to support their beliefs and "understandings". But which devout or scientist does NOT do that? Link to post Share on other sites
todreaminblue Posted September 13, 2014 Share Posted September 13, 2014 (edited) No, FACTS are facts, regardless. Truths are foundational to a system of philosophy or beliefs. All such systems depend on truths to support itself, but not necessarily on facts. Christians use truths, not facts, to support their beliefs and "understandings". But which devout or scientist does NOT do that? arent facts truths that are undeniable........heres a dictionary def...... a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: so...as far as the bible goes......if a devout person has seen or heard or knows of god through personal experience and observations.....then that is fact......it is not simply a belief that lies in founding thought or trepidatory foundations it is a living breathing personal experience and or observations with a heartbeat...its a fact that lies in actions it lives.....in truth if i say that god talks to me and he does, that i have seen gods hands in my life and experienced his presence specifically the presence of the holy spirit.....in revelation premonition etc....then that is fact....it is refutable because others have not seen or heard what i have so therefore can say i am delusional i dont know the truth and that its simply what i want to believe........does not make it less truthful that they dont accept it...everything living and non living can be refuted, debunked argued against.......... that people dont accept what i know to have occurred that i have personally had prayers answered and many observations and experiences i have had that prove to me the existence of god...............it is truth ...it is fact...whether people choose to believe that fact...is their own agency.......doesnt make it less truth....what it does make it for me is truth undeniable..or fact......deb Edited September 13, 2014 by todreaminblue Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted September 13, 2014 Author Share Posted September 13, 2014 The problem is that, in our postmodern world, much like the ancient Sophists, we don't deny there are truths. What we do, instead, is say there can be multiple truths. Each person can have their own truth. Truth, itself, is a shifting target, moveable to fit whatever your current goal is. So when a person says they believe in truth, that means very little. Everyone believes in truth. But the devil is in the details. Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Scorpio Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 if i say that god talks to me and he does, that i have seen gods hands in my life and experienced his presence specifically the presence of the holy spirit.....in revelation premonition etc....then that is fact....it is refutable because others have not seen or heard what i have so therefore can say i am delusional i dont know the truth and that its simply what i want to believe........does not make it less truthful that they dont accept it... By this logic anything can be claimed as a fact. In that case, doesn't the word lose all meaning? Link to post Share on other sites
Ronni_W Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 if i say that god talks to me and he does, that i have seen gods hands in my life and experienced his presence specifically the presence of the holy spirit.....in revelation premonition etc....then that is fact....it is refutable because others have not seen or heard what i have so therefore can say i am delusional i dont know the truth That's a perfect example, deb. That is A truth, YOUR truth...but not a fact and not THE truth. But it is definitely one truth in this Universe...even if it only belongs to you. (Not saying that others have not had the same or a similar experience...for those people, it will also be a truth and one that they share with you.) People who do not believe that this can happen will call you delusional, yes. It then becomes THEIR truth, that you are delusional...but it will not be a fact. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 I'm required to take a philosophy course as a prerequisite for my school program. We have just learned about the "Sophists", who were a group of philosophers shortly before Socrates. I am amazed at how much their views resemble modern thought. They deny the existence of absolute truth and, more specifically, believe that truth is merely that which allows an individual to "succeed" or "prosper" in his personal affairs. In other words, they believed truth is whatever gets you wealthy. They also believed in rhetoric, or the use of persuasive argument, to decide what truth is. In their view, the truth is whatever wins in an argument (such as in court, etc.) Modern Christianity reeks of Sophist philosophy. I believe a recent Barna group poll said that, while most Americans do believe in God, only about 30% believe in absolute truth. This data includes Christians, since most Americans identify as Christian. Are Christians, like ancient Sophists, teaching that truth is whatever brings success? We might get very tricky with words and substitute success for "blessings". Whatever we call it, it's all the same. Truth is truth regardless if it makes us rich or poor, happy or sad. I think it's extremely important to understand that Gods ways are not ours. I think most, which is kind of normal if we think about it, consider blessings as something good that occurs. Something bad is typically considered 'of the enemy'... for me it depends on what the situation is. Gods will may seem bad because we see things in the temporal (for the most part), but God sees what we don't. Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 That's a perfect example, deb. That is A truth, YOUR truth...but not a fact and not THE truth. But it is definitely one truth in this Universe...even if it only belongs to you. (Not saying that others have not had the same or a similar experience...for those people, it will also be a truth and one that they share with you.) People who do not believe that this can happen will call you delusional, yes. It then becomes THEIR truth, that you are delusional...but it will not be a fact. Are you a postmodernist? Link to post Share on other sites
Taramere Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 so...as far as the bible goes......if a devout person has seen or heard or knows of god through personal experience and observations.....then that is fact..... Our own personal experiences become our truths. If somebody hears a voice in their head, that's truth to them. They're hearing it. Others might diagnose them with a condition of which "hearing voices that aren't there" is a symptom, but as long as that person is hearing the voice in their head it exists. Nobody else can fit into their skin and listen out to see if they hear it too. If that same person says to others "did you hear that?" and they say "no" they might conclude three things 1. The voice is in their head only and others can't hear it 2. Others are lacking in a special ability that would enable them to hear the voice 3. Others hear the voice too, but are lying about hearing it. I think when Christianity or any other religion takes on the role of trying to convert other people around to its set of beliefs, that's two in operation. That if others would only open their minds or hearts, they too would "hear" the voice. Like trying to persuade somebody that they should enjoy a piece of music because you enjoy it. That if they fail to enjoy it, it's because they're doing something wrong or just not listening out properly. In specific groups, if the people with influence like a particular genre of music then it might become a group thing. Everybody has to either love that music too, or they have to learn to love it - or they have to pretend to love it in order to feel like part of the group. Similarly with religion. In regions where it has a strong grip, people who don't really believe in the deity might have to just pretend they believe in order to get along. For those who hate pretending, it might become a terrible internal conflict whereby they're desperately trying to find evidence that would enable them to believe..but just can't do it since there isn't any objectively gathered, compelling evidence supporting the beliefs they're told they must have in order to be considered a good person. Link to post Share on other sites
Author M30USA Posted September 14, 2014 Author Share Posted September 14, 2014 Taramere, It's part of being human to spread who we are and what we believe. Everybody does it, including Christians and atheists. Even if it's not verbally through persuasion, it's non-verbally through how we live and what we participate in. There is no neutral ground. Human beings cannot be blank voids. We all promote something. We all worship something. Link to post Share on other sites
Taramere Posted September 14, 2014 Share Posted September 14, 2014 (edited) Taramere, It's part of being human to spread who we are and what we believe. Everybody does it, including Christians and atheists. Even if it's not verbally through persuasion, it's non-verbally through how we live and what we participate in. There is no neutral ground. Human beings cannot be blank voids. We all promote something. We all worship something. Yes, of course it is. I'm not against beliefs that are based on faith rather than facts. I think most people, if they're honest, need some sort of faith-based belief system to get them through difficult times - even if in some cases it isn't based on any particular religion. It can also be psychologically healthy. Opening one's eyes to something that has a very strong ring of truth when that truth is precisely the opposite to what you want to believe can be a terrible experience. Potentially it could leave a person desolate if they have no sort of faith whatsoever to fall back on. Remember the one thing that was left after Pandora opened the notorious jar or box. It was hope. People need to have hope, and those who drive it out of their systems completely with pure logic and facts can become dead inside. I'm an agnostic who has a little bit of faith. A little bit of hope. I know how to conjure up that hope when I need it, and I'll defend it from people who want to steal it. And I don't believe in trying to part people from their religious convictions. I do believe in fighting any attempt to use religious convictions to bend me to the will of others, however. A privately exercised faith can be an incredible boon to a person - but organised religion, used for political purposes and to control others, is something else altogether. Edited September 14, 2014 by Taramere Link to post Share on other sites
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