Has lack of corporal punishment spoiled the younger generation?

[Fatal Femme]

There appears to be a problem in modern society with out-of-control children and young adults:

People are experimenting with drugs and getting into criminal activities at younger and younger ages. It is not uncommon to hear of 12-13 year old girls getting pregnant. Kids are blowing each other up with guns (most notably in the States). School teachers get assaulted by students regularly. The list can go on and on.

 

So what accounts for this increasing social problem - is it a lack of discipline? I've noticed that school teachers no longer have any power in disciplining kids these days, not just because smacking in schools is outlawed, but also because of the fear of litigation by the children's parents. In my country there are many civil libertarians that want to outlaw smacking altogether and make it illegal for parents to even smack their own children. Anti-smacking advocates say that the issue with smacking is that it involves using physical force as a solution to a problem, hence promoting violence to children. They are suggesting that if children did not get smacked while growing up and are not exposed to this so-called 'violence' in the family, they will not be violent as adults.

 

I think this argument would only hold true if there are no other outlets in society where children can learn about violence. But the reality is that even if kids are not smacked in their own homes, they will be exposed to rampant violence in the school playground, public places, TV and movie screens, and learn that violence can be used as a solution to a problem. Of course, I'm not suggesting that any kid who sees violence on TV will end up imitating it. What I am basically saying, is that anti-smacking advocates say that smacking encourages violence, and for that reason it should be banned. Parents smack their children considerably less often these days, and do we have a more peaceful society because of that? No, we have actually created a more violent younger generation than those from decades past when smacking was more acceptable.

 

So the question I'd like to open for debate, is that whether or not the lack of corporal punishment has spoiled the younger generation, and if not, then what factors have created today's messed-up youth.

[moimeme]

Another rant on society's ills?

 

Parents smack their children considerably less often these days, and do we have a more peaceful society because of that? No, we have actually created a more violent younger generation than those from decades past when smacking was more acceptable

 

Once again, you mix up correlation with causation. That two things happen simultaneously does not mean one was responsible for the other. You seek overly simplistic answers to extremely complicated situations. The world would not be immensely better if parents took to beating their kids' behinds again. It's not about that, that's not the reason the world is like it is.

 

It would be real grand if we could come up with one-liner solutions to all the world's ills. If it were doable, it would've been done by now. 'Relationships would be grand if marriage was abolished.' 'There'd be no crime if kids were spanked.' Nope, sorry. Life ain't that easy.

[d'Arthez]

People are experimenting with drugs and getting into criminal activities at younger and younger ages. It is not uncommon to hear of 12-13 year old girls getting pregnant. Kids are blowing each other up with guns (most notably in the States). School teachers get assaulted by students regularly. The list can go on and on.

 

Partially it is due, to an toughening of existing laws, which are enforced with almost utmost severity. Concerning sexual laws, they are barely enforced. In most countries and states anal sex is prohibited, but nonetheless it's quite popular. Is everyone who engages in anal sex a criminal?

 

Boys and girls get physically mature at younger ages, than 50 years ago, or 100 years ago. Probably caused by changed eating patterns and hormone meat. Concerning sexuality even the climate plays an important role. That is one cause why people of the cold northern climes generally mature slower (physically).

 

Drugs: there are legalized and illegalized drugs. Coffee and alcohol (above the age of 21) are allowed. Others are not allowed. Others are allowed with restricions, like pot on a medicinal basis in some states.

 

Concerning gunviolence, one must not forget that the right to shoot comes before the right to speak. And there are a lot of guns in the USA. The same is true in Italy. But in Finland most deaths by unnatural causes are caused by suicide, and suicidal behavior.

[alphamale]

Originally posted by Fatal Femme

So what accounts for this increasing social problem - is it a lack of discipline?

 

Yes

[sunlight]

Almost same amount as there was before, just more people now, so it is talked about more. That is the other thing, people talk more. Kids are abused, beating, and not given proper attention. Fix that first, and then lay down the law if need be. Until then stop complaining. Whens the last time you volunteered.

[MassiveAtom]

Originally posted by Fatal Femme

There appears to be a problem in modern society with out-of-control children and young adults:

People are experimenting with drugs and getting into criminal activities at younger and younger ages. It is not uncommon to hear of 12-13 year old girls getting pregnant. Kids are blowing each other up with guns (most notably in the States). School teachers get assaulted by students regularly. The list can go on and on.

 

Hmmmmm, I wonder where they would get the idea that it was okay to do just that. OH yeah, the military industrial complex that thrives on it's ability to efficiently and effectively destroy life.

So what accounts for this increasing social problem - is it a lack of discipline?

EXACTLY, ADULTS would serve this world better if they had the discipline to honor their commitments, control their own behavior, and not lash out at others for insignificant acts.

I've noticed that school teachers no longer have any power in disciplining kids these days, not just because smacking in schools is outlawed, but also because of the fear of litigation by the children's parents. In my country there are many civil libertarians that want to outlaw smacking altogether and make it illegal for parents to even smack their own children. Anti-smacking advocates say that the issue with smacking is that it involves using physical force as a solution to a problem, hence promoting violence to children. They are suggesting that if children did not get smacked while growing up and are not exposed to this so-called 'violence' in the family, they will not be violent as adults.

I was a schoolteacher for 4 years. Never hit a kid. Didn't have problems with creating a very disciplined, and orderly environment in which they could Learn. I never resorted to fear tactics.

 

I have two kids of my own. Never hit them, don't even raise my voice to them. they have no problems with their behavior. I bet if I started hitting them their behavior would go bonkers.

 

I was corporally disciplined as a kid. [actually is qualifies as abuse] You know what, I was a violent kid. As a father, I can't imagine using my huge powerful physical force against and innocent, silly, rambunctious, inexperienced kiddo. It just doesn't make sense to me. Plus I know how frightening it actually is. Even a smack on the butt is scary. I don't lead with fear.

I think this argument would only hold true if there are no other outlets in society where children can learn about violence. But the reality is that even if kids are not smacked in their own homes, they will be exposed to rampant violence in the school playground, public places, TV and movie screens, and learn that violence can be used as a solution to a problem. Of course, I'm not suggesting that any kid who sees violence on TV will end up imitating it. What I am basically saying, is that anti-smacking advocates say that smacking encourages violence, and for that reason it should be banned. Parents smack their children considerably less often these days, and do we have a more peaceful society because of that? No, we have actually created a more violent younger generation than those from decades past when smacking was more acceptable.

 

Maybe you missed this in the EVIL Media reports but PARENTS STILL PHYSICALLY PUNISH THEIR KIDS! IT's actually in the majority.

So the question I'd like to open for debate, is that whether or not the lack of corporal punishment has spoiled the younger generation, and if not, then what factors have created today's messed-up youth.

 

Lack of physical violence by a parent or other authority figure has NOT spoiled the younger generation. In fact the absence has created a safe place in the hearts of those kids so lucky to have been spared. Yeah they're inundated with violence all day, shouldn't their parents' arms be free from violence and physical torture?

 

It's called a circle of being. It's built of Dad, Mom, siblings, friends, the media, government, the church, and everything that affects the kid. Then the events of their lives, and how they're handled. That's where they develop into productive members of society. To blame the poor or arrested development of a person on one factor is naive and short-sighted to say the least.

 

When you're a Parent, if your hand hurts, It YOUR hand that hurts.

[HokeyReligions]

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

 

I think that it contributes, but is not the whole cause. I don't think any one thing can be pinpointed. Look back over history and you'll see that society is cyclical.

 

A hundred or so years ago people married very young and began raising families. Laws changed and new laws created to adapt to our ever changing society. Premarital sex was a scandal and if a student were pregnant they were yanked out of the public school system immediately.

 

Morals and values of society change constantly. I am pro-capital punishment, but in today's environment I don't believe that the distinction between abuse and a spanking is clearly defined so that everyone can understand it. Rather than break it down its easier to lobby and protest and attempt to criminalize any form of physical contact between parent or adult and child. Is that hug a sexual advance? Or is daddy just hugging his daughter?

 

There is a TV commercial on about some kind of soap. The father is walking down a hall in his boxers and T-shirt and his daughter is riding on his bare foot. He lifts his leg and boosts her into his arms. Seemed harmless to me, but I was on another political discussion board where there was a group who were very upset by this because the father was in his boxers! It had too many 'sexual' overtones and they felt it was wrong to show his skin touching his daughter! It never dawned on me to think like that, but apparently many people do.

 

A swat on a kids bottom when he (or she) is badly misbehaving in public is seen by some as abuse. When I was growing up, and when I had my kids and their friends around and someone misbehaved I would swat them. As a kid other kids parents or other adults would swat me me too if I was misbehaving. It was expected, accepted, and relied upon as a viable and productive way to discipline a child. Now someone's kid can be having a tantrum in the theater seat next to me and if I say anything they get angry and indignant because I verbally chastised or warned their child and if I ever were to swat one on the bottom I could go to jail. It's stupid and sad IMO.

 

But its not the only reason that society is what it is now.

[Mz. Pixie]

Nah, it's not the only reason but it's a good one. We are also taught to raise our kids to be politically correct, yada yada. What reason could there be that younger workers (like the ones that work at the company where I manage) have no qualms about calling in sick because they broke up with their boyfriend or not committing themselves to their jobs like I did in my 20's?? You cannot find a young person under 23 that really wants to work and expects to work hard. I'm not saying all but we've had alot come through here and that's been my experience. You might get 1 out of 5 that will committ to their jobs.

 

I do spank my kids on occasion. I was beat as a child and I know the difference. I do not beat them. I also punish them in different ways depending on what they are doing. I believe sometimes spanking is all that's works. I don't hit them in the face- only the rear or the legs.

[Elmo]

Lack of parenting, not lack of beating. Seems now parents are afraid of the job they signed up for. Spoilage is rampant as are the excuses of ADD, bipolar II, someone looked at my kid crosseyed, etc.

[d'Arthez]

Ever wonder why these particular diagnoses did not exist 100 years ago Elmo? Is it perhaps because society has changed dramatically in the past 100 years? Humans evolve a lot slower than the society humankind has created.

[blind_otter]

Gawd, not another long and involved thread on smacking your kid around. People always say "Back in the day...." as if the past were some idyllic spree of delight and we all drank tea and old people gave young whipper snappers peppermints and an ankle was exciting. More like, increased population density has brought the ills of society more into the light. Am I the only one who read Upton Sinclair or, god forbid, Charles Dickens, or Joseph Conrad?

 

I think any person who is an adult who grew up being physically abused as a child can attest to the fact that - like elmo said, it's lack of PARENTING, not lack of beating, that is the problem. Lack of parenting was a problem ages ago, and it is today. Nowadays we have more resources available to the general public.

 

But big whoop, instead of the working class using gin as their drug of choice, they use meth instead.

[d'Arthez]

About 150 years ago 1 in 4 children in parts of England died because of infanticide. It's in official government reports. Lack of parenting skills? Or something else?

[opaleye]

Nope I don't think that because teachers can't hit kids at school it has made them less disciplined. There are other ways of discipling children than hitting them. You can take the whole "spare the rod spoil the child" saying as a metaphor for sparing DISCIPLINE spoil the child.

 

Many different psychology studies have come up with correlational evidence which claims that physical punishment is correlated with increased immediate compliance but is also correlated with child aggression, child antisocial behaviour, adult aggression, adult mental health and adults abusing their own children. Another study showed that increased exposure to physical punishment during childhood is associated with significant increases in rates of psychiatric disorders, suicide attempts, substance abuse and dependence and criminal offending. This stuff doesn't seem good.

 

I don't think that parents should be able to hit their children. Why should they? You aren't allowed to hit other adults so why should you be allowed to hit the most vulnerable group of people? Because you gave birth to them? Because you can't think of anything else to do to discipline them?

 

There is also the danger of escalation. When parents are physically punishing their children they are often unaware that their behaviour is escalating and can quite easily move into abusive levels. This is especially true for adults who were physically discilpined or abused as children because they may have become desensitized to the effects of physical discipline (others can go the other way and oppose it passionately).

 

I think it's too easy to blame the state of society on the fact that physical discipline is less accepted in some places and that teachers do not have the right to hit their students.

 

Protecting children from potential abuse and pain is more important than a parent not being able to hit their kid in the supermarket- what I mean is that a childs right to not be assaulted by those closest to them is more important than a parent's right to hit their child- parents don't die from a kid throwing a tantrum but kids die from getting beaten to death by their "loving" parents.

 

And I think you do have to think about what you are teaching a child when you hit them. That its okay to hit someone if they are not doing what you want them to? That adults are allowed to hit? That those you love you hit you? Do you want to teach your children these things? I sure don't.

[moimeme]

as are the excuses of ADD, bipolar II,

 

 

I guess you don't believe in cancer either. Serious mental ailments are not 'excuses', they are explanations.

Apparently, there's also a horrible condition that is afflicting people in ever greater numbers - an allergy to learning.

 

Spare the rod, spoil the child.

 

This is lame, facile, and dates back to the same Bible wherein people are counselled to stone disobedient children to death. We've advanced a couple thousand years since that and learned that what people learn when they get hit -

is to hit! Wow. Great lesson to be teaching, that.

[Rosewilt]

I think lack of parenting plays a huge role.

 

Everyone is different in all kinds of ways(especially culture)

 

I too grew up on corpal punishment and all it did was install fear into me.

 

I can not imagine hitting my daughter. Even though, my daughter is at times out of control, I try to tell myself she is still a baby.

 

I dont know if she will be more respectful to me if I spank her whenshe acts up, but i dont want her to be scared of me.

 

I am an excellent parent and I think that if it came down to it, if/ when she acts this way once she gets over the TANTRUM years or does something to harm herself or others than maybe I would spank the tush......or do whatever to help

 

what do you guys think?

[HokeyReligions]

Originally posted by moimeme

This is lame, facile, and dates back to the same Bible wherein people are counselled to stone disobedient children to death. We've advanced a couple thousand years since that and learned that what people learn when they get hit -

is to hit! Wow. Great lesson to be teaching, that.

 

Well, I think that is BS, but then again some people thing that all physical discipline is abuse. Beating is not the same as spanking. Too bad there are so many people who just don't understand that and take bits and pieces of history or Bible lore and apply it liberally to everything without understanding what is written on page seven does not apply to what is written on page 200, it applies to the situation on page seven.

 

Sometimes spanking works and sometimes it doesn't. Beating someone never works.

 

I still think its part of the whole issue, but it it not the whole issue. As someone else said, bad parenting encompasses much more than styles of discipline.

[blind_otter]

Would you be willing to allow someone that you don't know to physically discipline your children? We don't have the same schools that we used to, when corporal punishment via the teachers was still socially acceptible. Those were almsot like neighborhood schools, everyone knew everyone - now you have schools with so many students and such horrible student teacher ratios that those teachers could be smacking kids right and left.

 

But again, lack of parenting is endemic. I think parenting classes should be somewhat mandatory, especially for expectant parents who are having their first baby - it was for me on medicaid when I was pregnant. Parenting is a learned behavior, not an instinctual one -- and I know very few parents that are aware of/acknowledge the fact the children have developmental issues in terms of how they process consequences, etc., and don't understand the whole idea of brain development as it relates to emotional or physical development.

 

Not pointing any fingers, just a general observation.

[Mz. Pixie]

Lack of parenting is rampant. Parenting is not for sissys and if you're not going to do it right you shouldn't do it at all.

 

I combine parenting with discipline when needed. I do not believe in a overkill of either. For instance, I never understood the problem about jumping on the bed, so I let my kids do that. They are not allowed, however to act up in someone elses home, church or a public place.

 

For example- I have always made my children sleep in their own beds. I helped them both learn how to fall asleep on their own. My best friend, however has one child who is horrible. She's spoiled and rules that home. They are always constantly exhausted because all they do is cater to her. She is almost four and sometimes my friend holds her down to get her to go to sleep. They also used to let her get up in the middle of the night- around 1 am and stay up until four- they would get up with her and go to the den and let her play. WTF??? It's obvious who is in charge there.

 

I've told all of my friends who are expecting or want to be parents variations on this: It's hard work. Sometimes it would be easier on you not to be consistent with them- you may be tired- sick whatever. It is important that no matter what you be consistent with them. When you say no, mean it. If you say you're going to punish them if they don't stop what they are doing, follow through with it. Sometimes the problem is that the parents are too lazy to enforce the rules. It's just easier to let them run the household, or sleep with you than to get up in the middle of the night and put them back in their bed. That's why there are kids still on a bottle at age three.

 

Yes, I would let a teacher paddle my child. I make it a point to know my children's teachers. I know people who have known them and people who's kids have been in their classes. It's important for them to respect authority figures. I do not expect the teachers though to take my job and do it for me. I am the parent ,they are the teachers. It's not up to them to teach them right from wrong- that is my job as their mother.

 

There are tons of people who do not take the job of parenting seriously.

[opaleye]

Hitting a child is not the only way to have discipline. Many people forget that.

[Mz. Pixie]

Of course it's not. I use many forms of discipline.

 

What I'm talking about is spanking and not beating- there is a difference.

[Bronzepen]

This question has been covered, more or less here.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t50853/

[boshemia]

I do remember that there were rules in place the only time I was ever physically disciplined at school.

It had to be an offense you had been disciplined for at least twice before,

there had to be a member of both sexes present

and a member of the opposite sex was supposed to administer the actual swats.

Your parents were to be called first, at they always had first shot at dispensing punishment as they saw fit…

and your parents always had the choice of signing a no corporal punishment slip…

 

I only remember this because my mother signed one after my swats…

 

So under these circumstances I wouldn’t mind them reinstating these policies, because I still have control over whether or not my child got swats. But it wasn’t like some mad maniac was swinging an iron paddle and scarring kids for life. 20 years later, I still remember those swats, I still remember the reason I got them, and I don’t feel abused or traumatized in any way.