This particular forum has me thinking....

[nextel]

but that is neither here or there.

 

The same argument can be used to say, perhaps women that date married men have too much free time and are too lazy to find single men. But, thats neither here or there!

[newby]

hey crazy girl!

you make me laugh

[MsMree]

No person that is lazy can keep that up for long!!! THE ENERGY IT TAKES IS INDESCRIBABLE...

 

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!1

[izzybelle]

some women will be with a MM cause of below reasons (not all inclusive):

 

- low self-esteem - hmm no lower than anyone else's. in fact those who know me would describe me as just the opposite. well it's much lower now after the mess with MM, and now i'm dating single guys who get to put up with that!

- cannot commit - i was perfectly willing to commit to MM - i know silly me. now, i'm terrified to commit to anyone!

- self hatred and self loathing - nope didn't loathe myself, except for the few weeks after the relationship with MM ended. then i just felt stupid, stupid, stupid!!

- wants something she cannot have - no, because of the circumstances, i thought he was available. if we're talking about wanting something i can't have, there is brad pitt... oh but wait, he is available now ...maybe?

- likes drama and emotional upheaval - god no, it's not healthy and i definitely don't seek it out

- doesn't think she deserves a single man who is available and decent - MM is decent and i was foolish enough to believe he was available. as to what i deserve? to be loved. and obviously MM was a mistake in that respect, although i do still believe that he did love me.

- challenge of stealing man away from wife - didn't think i was stealing anyone. she had told him she didn't want to be married anymore.... hated him wanted him out of her house....

 

anyway, i know there are plenty more reasons, none of them good. but my point is, these situations aren't cut and dry, or black and white, they are complex and confusing. and no, i never would have used most of the above phrases to describe myself before the relationship, several do apply now. so now that i know ..... i'll never say never but VERY unlikely i'd ever get myself into another mess like that again!

[moimeme]

Flowerpot

 

it's not 'browbeating'. I state my point succinctly. I don't write long essays filled with flowery phrases. Some folks love that I don't blather endlessley in making my point. Sorry if it's too abrupt for you but it's not browbeating.

[SixthSt.Girl]

Originally posted by littleflowerpot

 

 

browbeating has never worked before. what makes you think it will now? we are dealing with complicated emotions and you are forgetting that people are fallible (yes, even you). we all make mistakes and do things we shouldn't. berating someone about is probably not the best way to show someone the error of their ways, dear.

 

you are mistaken if you believe i'm trying to tackle you. i just don't understand your reasoning here. i don't understand your motivation. if you aren't here to help, you are here to either hurt or judge. if you are here to help, your current method just isn't cutting it.

 

 

Thank you - I'd also like to know just why people who aren't OW/OM, thinking of becoming an OW/OM, supportive friend of an OW/OM, etc. come here. Is it to be good Christians and save us? I don't know about you, but I'm in the midwest, and there's quite enough of those peeps in my life, already, I regret to say. If you don't like certain lifestyles, then why come to a board that is comprised of people involved in those lifestyles? Why do you care who wants to sleep with married people? There's not much you can do about it - even if it's your man that's sleeping around, that's still HIS business, not your's.

[moimeme]

even if it's your man that's sleeping around, that's still HIS business, not your's.

 

May it never happen to you.

 

 

I'd also like to know just why people who aren't OW/OM, thinking of becoming an OW/OM, supportive friend of an OW/OM, etc. come here

 

According to another post, you're in that group.

[SixthSt.Girl]

Originally posted by moimeme

May it never happen to you.

 

 

Hell no, I'm smart enough to stay out of monogomous relationships!

 

 

According to another post, you're in that group.

 

Yes, that is why I'm here, and, again I ask, what is your reason?

[lynnered]

Originally posted by nextel

but that is neither here or there.

 

The same argument can be used to say, perhaps women that date married men have too much free time and are too lazy to find single men. But, thats neither here or there!

LOL

whatever ,

no matter what anyone posts most of the time you act as if you have already formed your opinion ,and it doesn't seem to change through discussion?

so why bother ?

or maybe you cant get a single guy so your here trying to get tips on "snagging "a mm ?

 

LOL

[Grinning Maniac]

Wow...you broads sure are defensive in here. Moimeme brings up a valid point, and IMMEDIATELY all of you accuse her of trying to "attack" all of you, trying to establish a higher "moral ground" and of course...the good old standby..."JUST NOT UNDERSTANDING". Yawn. I may be reaching...but I think some of you are getting defensive for reasons other than feeling that she isn't trying to help(which isn't the case). "Fear and Self-Loathing in LoveShack"...

 

I felt compelled to bring something up. There's one common statement thoughout this whole thread (and many other) that keeps me in stitches:

 

"It's complicated."

 

Let me give it a whirl. You're involved with someone else's partner and they're lying to at least one of you. Possibly both of you. They will either: A) never leave their spouses and waste every good year of your life that you *let* them waste, while you wait and "settle"...or B) leave them and more than likely repeat the cycle once the "new car smell" wears off...or at best, make you constantly paranoid of that happening.

 

Would that sum up the general situation? How exactly is it "complicated"? It seems pretty cut and dry to me. If you didn't know he was married before, that is certainly a shame. But guess what? You know he's married NOW. Mentioning that you didn't know beforehand doesn't make a BIT of difference with what you do about it NOW. Continuing to stay in the situation and acting as if you no longer have any choice in the matter and were "trapped by the complex puzzle of love" is just a smoke screen that you've foolishly aimed in the wrong direction. You can yell at me all you want, but deep down inside you know that's a lame excuse and a weak attempt of justifying YOUR DECISION. Love makes us crazy. Love can convince you stupid choices are right. "Love" does NOT contractually bind you to stay in a situation which is clearly bad for you. Situations like these are STATISTICALLY proven to be a road to nowhere. In normal relationships, there's always some chance that your partner will hurt you, but with these it's almost a certainty. Scary thought...those women in relationships with the guy who punches them in the face after a few drinks? They loooove their man too.

 

When someone bothers to ask you folks why you choose to stay in these situations, aside from hemming and hawing, the reply generally given is the "but he's my soulmate!!!" line. Give up the lie. There is no such thing as a soulmate. Deal with reality, ladies. Not Disney fantasies. I'd bet that your MM doesn't see you in that way. Unless Disney makes pornos now... Your "Prince Charming" is someone who has no trouble with coldly and calculatingly lying to at least one person he claims to love, and finds it perfectly acceptable to humiliate and hurt his wife in the worst way possible...and you're in love with him. Real classy guy. I suppose I've had it all wrong on how to be a "real" man. I've wasted so much of my life. I guess being a real man means having no spine and looking out for no.1 at all costs. I grew up thinking that whole "honesty and courage" was attractive to women....boy was I wrong. You have to be a c*cksucker to get your c*ck sucked. It makes perfect sense and I shall change accordingly.

 

One last thing...and this is what I'm really wondering about. When you come across posters like me or moimeme (that sounds funny), who say that this is foolhardy and you need to just drop it full stop, even though it certainly will hurt..we get the internet-equivalent of you telling us to "talk to the hand" by saying that we just don't "understand your pain" and that what you'rel going through is wayyyy too complicated to look at in that manner, and that what we advise is a lot easier said than done. I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong, but have any of you ever considered that it actually ISN'T that complicated? I've heard posters claim that our advice means nothing because we haven't been in these kinds of relationships and therefore our advice is biased...but do you realize the ultimate hypocrisy in the fact that you yourselves are even MORE biased in the way you decide to handle things? You ladies have something to lose(IYO) since you're "in love". Considering that reality...don't you think it would be in your best interests to listen to people who *haven't* gotten into this mess themselves? Doing things "your way" seems counterproductive. Part of you is going to struggle no matter what..because part of you simply wants to stay around. Ever think you're subconciously making the situation out to be more "complicated" than it really is, so that you'll have an excuse not to leave? Laugh if you want...but for all of the sense the rest of the "reasons" I've heard tend to make, it doesn't seem all that far-fetched to me.

 

It seems like people are lying to themselves and just perpetually stalling in taking any action. Maybe you think you'll be the lucky lottery ticket that "wins" and lives happily ever after? Who knows. Some of you duck and run..and to you folks, I say bravo. Really. But let's be honest..."gathering the strength to leave" is just beyond lame and a bad idea if you think about it. Someone get me a violin. Gathering the strength? Months and month pass by and I've come back to notice posters still in the.same.situation. Real effective. You're just *dashing away*, aren't you... C'mon... This is a bold thought, but maybe all of this slowww "strength gathering" is just thumb-twiddling when it comes right down to it. You're wasting time and all the while, probably lying to yourselves and internally finding reason to stay just a liiiiittle bit longer. You could suddenly die tomorrow. Believe it. It's quite possible. Would you want to spend your last minutes on Earth so f'ed up and confused? You don't get a 2nd round.

 

There's a theory about love that I hold real close to my heart, and it is this: The way love makes you feel is technically the same as any drug you can get on the street. When it becomes a PROBLEM, you've got to treat it like an actual drug. Get it out of your system completely and start some "rehab". Trying to end a bad relationship by going back again and again for just onnnne little hit sounds like a real bad plan. I certainly wouldn't try getting off crack cocaine that way. Someone should find a forum of recovering drug addicts and try to compare dialog. It'd be interesting at the very least. In any case, you're addicts. Plain and simple. You don't have to wait for the "right time" to end it...or find the "right way" to say it...I thought chicks were supposedly tough these days. Why don't you just walk up to the guy, bitchslap him and give him a "mad as hell and not taking it anymore"? Switch locks, change numbers, hire a hypnotist, or just take a vacation. I can understand fear and confusion more than you'd all like to believe, but slow and steady seems to be "winning" the race in a way that leaves you feeling like lukewarm dog crap from what I can see.

 

Well, back to work. Laters.

 

PS: Once again...I don't revel in your misery, think I'm "better" than you, or gleefully await your downfall in a "moral jihad" with pecker in-hand. . I honestly hate seeing people get hurt when they don't deserve to be. Not just when they're hurt by someone else, but also when they do it to themselves out of foolishness.

[erika2610]

Originally posted by Grinning Maniac

Wow...you broads sure are defensive in here. Moimeme brings up a valid point, and IMMEDIATELY all of you accuse her of trying to "attack" all of you, trying to establish a higher "moral ground" and of course...the good old standby..."JUST NOT UNDERSTANDING". Yawn. I may be reaching...but I think some of you are getting defensive for reasons other than feeling that she isn't trying to help(which isn't the case). "Fear and Self-Loathing in LoveShack"...

 

-I- have accused her of attacking people, but only because I've read other posts from her. I've read posts such as 'OW are skanks' and so on and so on. OW or exOW come here looking for advice and support.. not to be judged and berated.

And yes, the relationships do get complicated, and you'd have to have gone through it to know that.. things aren't always so cut & dry..

[Grinning Maniac]

GM: "How exactly is it 'complicated'? It seems pretty cut and dry to me." .... "I've heard posters claim that our advice means nothing because we haven't been in these kinds of relationships and therefore our advice is biased..."

 

erika: "And yes, the relationships do get complicated, and you'd have to have gone through it to know that.. things aren't always so cut & dry.. "

 

-------------------------------------------------------------[somewhere in an alternate universe...]----------------------------------------------------------------

 

GM: Hm...I wonder how florescent lightbulbs work in comparison to tradtional lightbulbs. The kinds of light that they produce are very different. I especially wonder what causes florescents to to give your skin that dead, colorless look in a mirror.

 

erika: Yes, lightbulbs illuminate rooms. There are several different types of lightbulbs.

 

[erika2610]

Why do you feel the need to be rude?

[Mr Spock]

Not bothering to get too off topic here, but it's pointless to argue with someone who feels they're never wrong. So don't do it.

 

 

 

Your MM will not leave his wife and you'll only end up miserable so cut him off, do NC, do all the things that people who get broken up with while they're still in love do .

 

 

Is entirely true. The chances of you ending up happy are a billion gazillion to one, to be factually exact.

 

 

 

 

I honestly hate seeing people get hurt when they don't deserve to be. Not just when they're hurt by someone else, but also when they do it to themselves out of foolishness

 

Is what you need to take out of GM's post.

 

 

But back on topic.

 

 

Hopefully, my brain will advise my loins next time they gravitate towards someone who isn't single, to stay the hell away. Simply because it can't handle any more of the same old sh*t. I don't WANT to go through the same crap again.

[erika2610]

Grinning Maniac.. Things can get complicated just as they do in other relationships.. the feelings are just the same. Just because we are or were dating married people, doesn't make the feelings any less. I didn't go out looking for a MM.. I avoided him for over a year because I knew he was married. But I couldn't fight my feelings anymore. I feel hard for him. Noone going into this kind of relationship really knows what they're getting into.. knows the consequences. But alot of us, at at least for me.. I got enough judging and berating when I was with him from people I knew. I came here for support trying to get over it.. not to hear judgements from condescnding people who don't know what I'm going through.

[Mr Spock]

He doesn't think he's being rude, he thinks he's being funny.

 

 

GM, you have OPINIONS in these situations but no real knowledge of them from a woman's point of view. Don't take it personally-it's hard to express opinions in a way that's useful if you haven't been there.

[CaughtUp]

I really enjoy the fact that people who are so high and mighty and who have such wonderful lives have time to come to this site and make judgements about this situation. Because I know that when I'm happy and have spare time I go hunt out pain in other people and try to make it worse. GM, didn't I see you at an AA meeting with a beer in hand telling the members it was all in their heads and they should all just be like you and be a social drinker? and Moi Didn't I see you somewhere thumping on a bible?

 

I just hope that for your sake that your precious moral codes and sense of what is right and wrong is never put to the test and you find yourself doing something that you never thought in a million years that you would do because I believe that you would kill yourself rather than say "Hey, maybe things aren't always so black and white for everyone." and it would be ashame to lose such wonderful people from our lovely planet. This is of course assuming that you honestly feel this strongly and aren't just here to irritate people you feel that you are better than...

[MsMree]

Here's a quick hint - you can tell those who think they are superior by the size of their posts - YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO READ IT - loke people who like to hear themselves talk - BECAUSE THEY ARE SO BRILLIANT.

 

Brilliance can usually be summed-up in less than one paragraph

[newby]

I really enjoy the fact that people who are so high and mighty and who have such wonderful lives have time to come to this site and make judgements about this situation. Because I know that when I'm happy and have spare time I go hunt out pain in other people and try to make it worse. GM, didn't I see you at an AA meeting with a beer in hand telling the members it was all in their heads and they should all just be like you and be a social drinker? and Moi Didn't I see you somewhere thumping on a bible?

 

QUOTE caught up

 

nicely put caught up!

 

GM talking about stuck records moimeme didnt bring up any point that we havent already heard and just to disprove your point that "gathering the strength to leave" is just buying more time to stay, it was coming here and getting alot of support by nice people that gave me the strength to leave.

having people tell you that you are immoral, selfish and foolish doesnt really make you think "well fantasic! i've got so much going for me!, i really dont need to hang on to a relationship where i'm treated like cr^p"

i cannot believe that anyone with a brain would think its helpful, therefore there is either one of two reasons why somebody comes here and says such a thing.

you can work it out

[sweet-oooh]

Im new on this forum, have just been reading through and find it very interesting.

I was seeing this guy, an old friend from school, hadnt seen eachother for 18 years, and we started dating 8 months ago, and YES i fell for him, in a big way. He recently confessed to me that hes been in a relationship for the last 7 years. They are not married, TWAT!!

And i broke it off, broke my heart at the same time, but i believe its the right thing to do. I love this guy so much, but its wrong, he belongs to someone else.

i think sometimes we lie to ourselves, telling ourselves we CANT break it off, but the fact is, THEY ARE NOT OURS!! And i agree that we should look out for eachother, i feel so sorry for his g/friend and id never want to be in the same situation as her, she has no idea that hes been cheating.

I think IF they do leave their wives for us, then we are just swapping roles, cos if theyre gonna cheat, theyre gonna cheat. So come on girls, im brokenhearted here, but i walked away.

[MsMree]

NO REALLY, GREAT!! I didn't realize how very wrong it was until i just read your post.

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

NEXT.

[SixthSt.Girl]

I want to ask this again, since no one has answered it yet - why do those who only want to judge and bug come here? HELLO - read the board description. Those who aren't the OW/OM or want to kindly support their relationships really seem out of place. Do they really think that on a board created for people in "sordid paradise," they have any kind of influence at all?? From some of the other responses to these bothersome, old, comments, I see that many other posters are feeling the same. I think we should just hold our tongues because they won't learn their lesson, apparently. Praises bookstore is having a 25% storewide sale - run, run like the wind! (Are they gone yet?)

[moimeme]

As usual, people totally ignore the good sense in GM's post. Never mind how 'complicated it is'. Never mind how you 'didn't mean to fall'. Just get the hell out. And quit whining about people being 'judgmental', etc etc etc. You have no idea of anybody's situations and therefore have no right whatsoever to say who may or may not post on 'your' board.

 

I got news for you - telling you you're doing something that's doomed to failure and that you should exit and why you should exit IS being helpful. You won't listen. You'll bitch and whine at so-called 'judgemental' people, and in the end you'll realize how completely right we were and be sorry you didn't listen sooner because of how much of your life you wasted.

 

Enabling is not supporting. Joining someone in their self-delusion is not supporting. Telling people what life is like and how they're screwing up their own lives is supporting - supporting people to make choices which will benefit them in the end.

 

You see people running off the end of a cliff, you holler at them to stop because they're going to end up crushed. Some will listen. Others have to leap off the cliff, land in a crushed, bloody mass at the bottom, and then drag their broken, bleeding selves along for a long time until they heal. Even our formerly unrepentant Spock is now not such a big fan of affairs.

 

So what are you going to be? The roadkill at the bottom of the cliff or the smart one who stops before the end and walks away?

[izzybelle]

this discussion will always come back...no matter how many times it's debated and no matter how many times moderators may interfere. this is a forum, that for some reason, always seems to head off in these directions at least once a month if not more. and i have no idea why i'm getting involved in this debate again... <<yawn>>

 

I got news for you - telling you you're doing something that's doomed to failure and that you should exit and why you should exit IS being helpful. You won't listen. You'll bitch and whine at so-called 'judgemental' people, and in the end you'll realize how completely right we were and be sorry you didn't listen sooner because of how much of your life you wasted.

 

i'm sure you have the statistics to back you up about the small % of MMs who leave their wives for their OWs, or end up leaving their wives as a result. but the problem with statistics is getting a sample that is going to be a representative sample, and i'm never quite convinced that this is. lying with statistics or tweeking them to say what someone wants is common. one of the most helpful courses i've ever taken was a graduate level course in research methods. we spent many an hour learning how to judge whether or not a study was valid...to be educated consumers of statistics and not just the "average" person who looks at the stats and treats them as the gospel truth. an MM may leave his W and not say it's because of an affair, but it may be, they just maybe didn't get caught. but still, who cares, we all know the chances, we all know the probablity, we can all site cases, including me, of MMs who chose to stay with their Ws. BUT i personally know at least 6 MMs who have left their Ws and are with their OWs. my first MM just left his wife, not because of me, but he did leave. so in my "small" world, the %s are a whole lot higher than the national average perhaps. but that doesn't matter, really. but they are all not doomed to failure, the majority may be ... but each situ is diff and it's IMPOSSIBLE to make global statements about these relationships.

 

You have no idea of anybody's situations and therefore have no right whatsoever to say who may or may not post on 'your' board.

yeah well ... back at ya, and not in a disrespectful way. you also have no idea of anybody's situations and while you may have the right to post here it is not always accurate, or in someone's best interest to tell them they're self-delusional, etc. etc.

 

i don't know that many (or any) of us are "fans" of affairs. i'm not. and will i do it again? highly unlikely, and as spock has said here or elsewhere, i hope that history doesn't repeat itself, and i will do what's necessary to try to ensure that i don't end up down this road again. it's not like most of us go out looking for an MM to mess with. and the one thing that many here will never, ever realize is that saying things with kindness is more likely to get the results they think are "best". it amazes me at the slow learning curve.... people get "judgemental" - by someone's definition anyway, an argument starts, and here we go again.... and again ..... and again ...... and they will never realize (and i do hate the word never) the same message can be delivered in several ways...some will be seen as supportive and others won't.

 

<<sigh>>

[blind_otter]

I remember this one time I was hanging out with this guy RIIIIIGHT after I got divorced 2 years ago. He was a tattoo artist who wanted to do work on my back (I have an ongoing piece that I keep adding to). We hooked up a few times, he poured his heart out about his ex, I poured my heart out about my exH - we were the breakup couple, I thought, we were seeking solace from each other about our past relationships. rebound city, right?

 

I was at his house and someone pounds on his door. Guess who? Keiko, his "ex", was actually his Girlfriend/fiancee! She kicked the door in and bloodied his nose and came after me. She looked exactly like me, plus about 5 inches and 30 lbs. Same shape and everything! I had to jump out the bedroom window with no shirt on to get the hell away from her. I'm sure the two of them proceeded to have a tearful reunion and makeup sex.

 

A few days later she called me at my house to grill me about my interactions with her "man". I related that her man and I were no longer associating with one another and I hoped to god she could extricate herself from her relationship with him because he was a lying, cheating, a**h***. Eventually, she did....

 

here's the thing. Moral of the story. I found out he was attached, not even married mind you, but attached to someone else, and I dumped him. End of story. Next guy please.

 

Ah I wish I could have done that with my abusive exBF. I suppose we all have our hangups. I re-enact horrific trauma situations by getting involved with physically abusive a**h***s, some women are committment-phobic and are irresistably attracted to emotionally unavailable men. Whatever your poison, I suppose. I can't really judge. But at least when I am self-destructive, I don't hurt anyone but myself - ya know? I mean, seriously.