Forgive your WS's who are remorseful.

[waterwoman]

I totally agree popsicle. I see no point in staying with someone whom you won't forgive. The changes he has made, the remorse he has shown, the love and support he has offered me, deserves nothing less than loving forgiveness. And the man he is now is forgiven - utterly and uneqivocally - but the man he was then...well I am still struggling with that.

 

The thing is I don't think any BS truly wants to stay angry and unforgiving - it's exhausting and distressing, particularly when you love your wayward and WANT to stay with them. We all want to get to the state of forgiveness, otherwise what's the point of reconciliation?

 

But saying 'I want to forgive' is a bit like a couch potato saying 'I want to run a marathon'. The will to run a marathon is very important but you don't get there just by wanting it. It also requires determination, hard work and persistence and sometimes no matter how hard you try, and how much you want to succeed, you wont acheive it.

 

Nothing that anyone has done to me has hurt anything close to this. Betrayal of this kind hurts the most tender parts of you. To get over it, to let them in again freely and openly, takes a huge mental and emotional effort, day in day out. It's been over 2 years for us and while we are doing really really well, I still get my moments when I want to scream my hurt and rage in his face - those moments are few and far between and I have to look at him and see the now-man not the then-man, and sometimes I can't ease it except by going out for a run until the endorphins kick in and I come home calm and happy again.

 

All I am saying is that it isn't easy. You can't truly forgive just with an effort of will.

[BetrayedH]

You weren't desperate to forgive - you were just desperate. You wanted the shock and pain and the betrayal to just go away. If you can say the magic words "I forgive" it helps settle everything down for the time being. But then real-life intrudes on your bullsh*t fantasy and you to face the truth. You know how it works better than most. A BS will say and/or do extremely stupid things in an attempt to get their world back to normal. There is no worse time in a man's life then the first few weeks after d-day.

 

I tend to think that we're both right on this one. I was both desperate and I wanted to forgive. It's in my nature to want to forgive, when the person is remorseful. Took me a long while to figure out that she really wasn't. The continued lying after being stone-cold busted and voluntarily surveilled wasn't something I was prepared for.

 

Popsicle, your inference that it would "take a minute" to determine if they're truly remorseful made me laugh out loud.

[Got it]

Wouldn't there be multiple items and layers one is forgiving? I don't see something like this having one all encompassing forgiveness but over time one would work towards forgiving certain aspects.

 

I think as long as both parties are showing active efforts to keep things moving forward, that neither party is stuck for a considerable (and that is subject to the individuals and situation) amount of time or going backwards would show things moving in the right direction.

[PegNosePete]

Five years is a lot of wasted time.

WS should have thought of that before they cheated.

 

5 years is indeed a long time so why would you throw away a relationship, often much longer than 5 years, just to get some extra nookie?

 

The least you can do is give the BS the same amount of time back, to get over it.

[gettingstronger]

I kind of see what you are saying but true reconciliation is a long, slow, painful process- for me, I will know its time to go if I no longer love him, no longer feel like I am on the path to forgiveness and healing-

 

To me if:

 

they don't want/love you- leave them alone

if you don't want/love them- leave them alone

any type of abuse-leave

 

Reconciliation has so many ups and downs that what someone posts here on a down day can give the wrong impression of the whole relationship-

I am disgusted by my husbands actions, I feel cheating is wrong and cowardly, I am angry and hurt by all of this BUT I am healing and hopeful-he is working hard on himself, I love him, I value us enough to at least give it a try, we are not hurting, lying to or betraying anyone by reconciling-

 

I think perhaps OP you are taking the advice given to OWs and twisting it back on the married people-deciding to end an A is different than deciding to end a M- I am not saying one is easier, just saying its different-

[beatcuff]

OP thanks for this thread. and to the responders as well. my advice i give varies depending on the distance from d-day. the further you move along the more i tend to lean on the BS to either move forward or move on. i fully believe at some point the WS will determine the effort is futile if no 'light at the end of the tunnel' is seen. this results in even more pain for the BS (and no doubt restarts their recovery).

 

a 5 year recovery makes sense only if time span is a 'half-life'. so towards the end there a minor and brief 'concerns'.

 

otherwise you are wasting BOTH persons time. a/k/a the BS time would be better spent with independent recovery and search for a different partner.

 

as for some that think it's not --- this needs to be reconciled with 'life is too short' advice often provided to those in bad M without A.

[ComingInHot]

Pops I am glad you started this thread. My response is going to be all that I'll give as my formal update as well as anything more I simply cannot deal.

I HAVE forgiven him. I have tried for the past couple of years to move forward to a better marriage with him (that whole fake it til you make thing). I believed I was getting there, to a better marriage I mean. And sincerely, I AM over his A, I think. Maybe.

 

Anyway, thing is. I don't see him the same. I want to so badly but I don't. I trust he'll never cheat again. He's never been more happy and satisfied with 'us'. I'm different now. I grew this 'switch' that I just shut off when I want to get what I've been craving . I just can't.

 

So, it took me a loooong time to figure this all out. At the end, I failed. I couldn't do it. I so wish I could because honestly reading the nightmares of dating when the age is turning 40 + is REALLY disheartening and terrifying. I know I've got time. That I need time.

 

I love him. I DO forgive him. Now I'm the sorry one because I failed all of us in the long run.

 

So Popsicle, I appreciate your thread and your sincerity behind it.

CIH* out-a-here

[dichotomy]

Each person - WS/BS has the choice to stay or go, deal with it or not.

 

For 4 years there was no real regrets/remorse from her, and no real forgiveness from me.

 

We each knew the basics of how each of us felt and chose to stay. She could have left ....and so could have I. Between 4 to 5 years the regret and remorse and accountability came in modest nature, as did my forgiveness.

 

I know what I was doing in choosing to say those years without forgiveness and so did she. My reasons are my own, as were my unique circumstances.

 

Those 4 years included amazing times and saw children enter the world that would have been lost.

 

Who knows what will happen next? Success in marriage looks a lot like perseverance . ....I will keep making that choice for the time being.

Edited September 26, 2014 by dichotomy

[nightmare01]

You are posting in the infidelity section. If you can not trust your WS again and/or continue to think they are a bad partner, then you need to leave them.

 

I've not read the entire thread yet - only up to this post.

 

If the WS does not have the stones to stay and deal with the repercussions of the horrible thing they did, then they need to get the hell out of the M. You prefer to be with your AP.. then GO and have a happy life.

 

Early on after my Dday WW accused me of "crying just to make [her] feel bad".

 

A BS that agrees to attempt to R with their WS is giving them a gift. A HUGE gift. The pain a BS feels is beyond description, and to ask us to just stuff it and shove the whole thing under the carpet and never say anything about it again is a further disrespect to the BS.

 

You are expecting someone hurt so badly they experience PTSD to just get over it and never say anything about it again??? just because bringing up a trigger might make their WS feel bad?? ARE YOU KIDDING????

 

You're delusional.

[No Limit]

Nope. I can do better.

[nightmare01]

I would tend to agree that 5 years seems a stretch, although I suppose that date range refers more to fully reconciled than forgiveness. I can't tell you how many times I "forgave" my wife in my 8 month effort. Heck, I wasn't even close to really forgiving in that time frame.

 

5 years a lot of wasted time? Perhaps. Perhaps not if the marriage ends up fully reconciled.

 

Forgiveness takes as long as it takes. The WS has to be in it for the long haul. If they want to stay with their BS they need to persevere and do all they can to repair what THEY BROKE. If the WS is not all-in then get to get-out.

 

Time itself doesn't heal anything, it's what you do with that time that counts.

 

And trust? I was an idiot to trust my WW as completely as I did. I learned my lesson and will NEVER trust anyone to that extent again.

[nightmare01]

Just to be clear -

 

A WS is no prize. I mean, if any BS had known what their WS was capable of we probably would not have married them. So even considering taking them back an reconciling is a huge gift. If the WS wants forgiveness, then remorse is the minimum we would want. The WS has to win us back if they want the M to continue. If the WS is not willing to do that, then they should go and be with their AP.

[HereNorThere]

After reading this thread and others, it's hard not think that there isn't a hint of laziness in reconciliation for some. Forgiving and moving on is hard and scary, but not as much as the unknown for some people. You see comments all over here about how hard dating would be past a certain age and sorts of other excuses. There's also a ton of disconnection between their partner and their partner's actions.

 

The person laying next to you is also the person who cheated on you and lied to your family. Some people do not have the power to pretend it never happened and some people do. For some, reconciliation means a life long panic attack, low self-esteem and hypervigilance and other people are able to move past it with relative ease. It's almost easy to spot which side of the fence the BS will be on based on personality types. The more analytical, obsessive type personalities will never, ever let it go. Now or 20 years from now, they'll think about the betrayal every single time they hear your name. The more laissez faire type personality are more likely to accept this type of behavior and move on.

 

No one personality type is right or wrong, but it is rather predictable. I have a feeling most WS factor this in as well when it comes to what information they are willing to come forward with.

[Popsicle]

After reading this thread and others, it's hard not think that there isn't a hint of laziness in reconciliation for some. Forgiving and moving on is hard and scary, but not as much as the unknown for some people. You see comments all over here about how hard dating would be past a certain age and sorts of other excuses. There's also a ton of disconnection between their partner and their partner's actions.

 

The person laying next to you is also the person who cheated on you and lied to your family. Some people do not have the power to pretend it never happened and some people do. For some, reconciliation means a life long panic attack, low self-esteem and hypervigilance and other people are able to move past it with relative ease. It's almost easy to spot which side of the fence the BS will be on based on personality types. The more analytical, obsessive type personalities will never, ever let it go. Now or 20 years from now, they'll think about the betrayal every single time they hear your name. The more laissez faire type personality are more likely to accept this type of behavior and move on.

 

No one personality type is right or wrong, but it is rather predictable. I have a feeling most WS factor this in as well when it comes to what information they are willing to come forward with.

 

Yes, this is spot on.

[Popsicle]

Just to be clear -

 

A WS is no prize. I mean, if any BS had known what their WS was capable of we probably would not have married them. So even considering taking them back an reconciling is a huge gift. If the WS wants forgiveness, then remorse is the minimum we would want. The WS has to win us back if they want the M to continue. If the WS is not willing to do that, then they should go and be with their AP.

 

This thread was made with remorseful WS's in mind. I get the feeling that most WS's referred to by BS's in this thread are not truly remorseful. I would also like to add that if one thinks their WS is a piece of trash like you allude to in your post, then that BS should without a doubt leave, NOT stick around. I honestly have no idea why a BS would stick around if they think this way about their WS for an extended time. To stay would be no better than the WS because it would staying be for the wrong reasons. (i.e. out of comfort, fear, obligation, not love)

[BetrayedH]

This thread was made with remorseful WS's in mind. I get the feeling that most WS's referred to by BS's in this thread are not truly remorseful. I would also like to add that if one thinks their WS is a piece of trash like you allude to in your post, then that BS should without a doubt leave, NOT stick around. I honestly have no idea why a BS would stick around if they think this way about their WS for an extended time. To stay would be no better than the WS because it would staying be for the wrong reasons. (i.e. out of comfort, fear, obligation, not love)

 

I have yet to hear you address the time issue. In one post you mention that it may take a minute to tell if they're telling the truth. Above you mention "an extended period of time." Precisely how long do we BSs have to determine if our WS is truly remorseful before we're "no better than the WS?"

[Popsicle]

I have yet to hear you address the time issue. In one post you mention that it may take a minute to tell if they're telling the truth. Above you mention "an extended period of time." Precisely how long do we BSs have to determine if our WS is truly remorseful before we're "no better than the WS?"

 

I would say not more than a year (and that's a long time, stretching it). Longer than that and patterns are unconsciously set that have an effect on both people and the M.

 

I'd say IC is paramount too for yourself.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Popsicle

[BetrayedH]

I would say not more than a year (and that's a long time, stretching it).

 

No offense but it seems you're just kinda winging it here. I like the idea of BSs forgiving a truly remorseful WS but I have a hell of a time with putting some kind of artificial deadline on it. Hypervigilance, PTSD (3 therapists said I had the symptoms), mind-movies, triggers - as someone else said, you don't just will them away.

[2.50 a gallon]

When I caught my Ex kissing, a pretty boy, body builder guard at her work place, I threw her under the bus and told her not to come home. This made her extremely mad, so she ended up moving in with OM, for over a month. Then she had a sudden turn around and desparately wanted me back. Sobbing, rolling on the floor, begging for a do over, wanting to go to a MC, etc.

For me it was too late. The whole hearted trust that I had was gone. I could no longer take a chance of her being the mother of my future family.

Forgiving is one thing, forgetting is another story.

The worst part was the mind images. She claimed they had never had sex, as he suffered from whiskey cock. I know she had several sexual partners prior to us getting hitched, that never bothered me. However my mind just could never get over seeing her giving him a BJ trying to get it up. There was no way I could ever kiss her again.

She did not give up, and continued to reconcile for the next 3 to 4 years.

[BetrayedH]

When I caught my Ex kissing, a pretty boy, body builder guard at her work place, I threw her under the bus and told her not to come home. This made her extremely mad, so she ended up moving in with OM, for over a month. Then she had a sudden turn around and desparately wanted me back. Sobbing, rolling on the floor, begging for a do over, wanting to go to a MC, etc.

For me it was too late. The whole hearted trust that I had was gone. I could no longer take a chance of her being the mother of my future family.

Forgiving is one thing, forgetting is another story.

The worst part was the mind images. She claimed they had never had sex, as he suffered from whiskey cock. I know she had several sexual partners prior to us getting hitched, that never bothered me. However my mind just could never get over seeing her giving him a BJ trying to get it up. There was no way I could ever kiss her again.

She did not give up, and continued to reconcile for the next 3 to 4 years.

 

If I may ask, what's the moral of the story? Was it a waste of 3-4 years? If so, could you have known that at the time or is it just looking in hindsight that you now know it was "too late?"

 

I'm just not sure how you're supposed to "know" as a BS. My wife "seemed" remorseful (mostly). It took 8 months of being hypervigilant to discover that she really wasn't. After all of the lying and deception, how is a BS supposed to know when it's time to forgive?

[2.50 a gallon]

BH

 

 

My error, we had a lightening storm come thru, and in my hurry to get shut down, did not notice the missing words in the last line.

The last line should read: She did not give up, and continued to (want to) reconcile for the next 3 to 4 years.

I walked away and stayed away. Alas never, I never remarried and never had any kids. I regret not having any kids, but not by her, as I am almost certain, that I would have ended up paying her CS

[HermioneG]

After reading this thread and others, it's hard not think that there isn't a hint of laziness in reconciliation for some. Forgiving and moving on is hard and scary, but not as much as the unknown for some people. You see comments all over here about how hard dating would be past a certain age and sorts of other excuses. There's also a ton of disconnection between their partner and their partner's actions.

 

The person laying next to you is also the person who cheated on you and lied to your family. Some people do not have the power to pretend it never happened and some people do. For some, reconciliation means a life long panic attack, low self-esteem and hypervigilance and other people are able to move past it with relative ease. It's almost easy to spot which side of the fence the BS will be on based on personality types. The more analytical, obsessive type personalities will never, ever let it go. Now or 20 years from now, they'll think about the betrayal every single time they hear your name. The more laissez faire type personality are more likely to accept this type of behavior and move on.

 

No one personality type is right or wrong, but it is rather predictable. I have a feeling most WS factor this in as well when it comes to what information they are willing to come forward with.

 

This is an interesting observation.

 

My experience has been the opposite. The more analytical and logical personality types ( which is my personality type, for the record, complete with a diagnosis of an obsessive disorder), the more deliberate they become in their determination- whether that is to leave or to reconcile.

 

My friends in my life who have also experienced infidelity are, strangely, more like me ( birds of a feather), and it has been the same with them.

 

But everyone's mileage may vary.

 

FTR- I am a reconciled BS, many years past. My esteem is just as high as ever, and as for letting it go? I cannot remember the last time it came up between my spouse and I. I am on the forums because I find the dynamic fascinating. And I labor under the delusion that maybe some of what I learned along the way from people who helped me can be paid forward.)

Edited September 27, 2014 by HermioneG

[Popsicle]

No offense but it seems you're just kinda winging it here. I like the idea of BSs forgiving a truly remorseful WS but I have a hell of a time with putting some kind of artificial deadline on it. Hypervigilance, PTSD (3 therapists said I had the symptoms), mind-movies, triggers - as someone else said, you don't just will them away.

 

Did you expect me to give you an expert research scholarly answer? You pushed for my opinion and I gave it to you. I still feel the same way. I get that a bunch of BS's just won't forgive. Fair enough. I wish you luck. I tried.

[waterwoman]

Did you expect me to give you an expert research scholarly answer? You pushed for my opinion and I gave it to you. I still feel the same way. I get that a bunch of BS's just won't forgive. Fair enough. I wish you luck. I tried.

 

That's a bit unfair. Many of us gave you detailed and heartfelt posts about how forgiving is simply not that easy or quick no matter how we want to do so and you come back with 'a bunch of BS's just won't forgive'.

 

You posted earlier about patterns being set. That will only happen if bothinh changes. Reconciliation is a dynamic process - it won't be the same 3 months from now, 6 months from now, a year from now. If a BS stays at the same level of anger and hurt, shows the same behaviours towards their WS, refuses to move on at all for that suggested period of 2 - 5 years, I agree that a very unhealthy pattern has been set and I would respectfully suggest both parties are wasting their time.

[DKT3]

That's a bit unfair. Many of us gave you detailed and heartfelt posts about how forgiving is simply not that easy or quick no matter how we want to do so and you come back with 'a bunch of BS's just won't forgive'.

 

You posted earlier about patterns being set. That will only happen if bothinh changes. Reconciliation is a dynamic process - it won't be the same 3 months from now, 6 months from now, a year from now. If a BS stays at the same level of anger and hurt, shows the same behaviours towards their WS, refuses to move on at all for that suggested period of 2 - 5 years, I agree that a very unhealthy pattern has been set and I would respectfully suggest both parties are wasting their time.

 

I think forgiveness is in large part earned by the WS. In a case like your talking about its likely the WS is still has the wayward mindset, doing stuff that is making it more difficult. Maintaining contact with AP, not being open and honest, expecting the BS to "get over it" without doing their part.

 

Rolled all up in this is the fact that a lot of us (BS) also feel we have to forgive ourselves, for not trusting our guts, for not seeing or refusing to accept/admit the signs. I for one felt stupid, like I how didn't I put it all together sooner. Looking back it was sooo clear. How did I miss it?