Isn't it okay to say "no"... ever?

[fyrwyfe]

My husband & I are just not doing well. Quick rundown - he continues to look at porn, lies to me, bullies me, says whatever he wants in front of the kids (about me our our personal arguement) - our counselor said he's a narcissist & that he shouldn't be making the same mistake over & over and that he needs individual counseling in addition to us going to marriage counseling.

 

This has been going on for years really; just when things seemed better he was back at it again. So he's succesfully put some huge distance between. The latest was a discussion that turned into an arguement, and when I'd mentally had enough because we just weren't getting anywhere, he would not leave me alone. He continued to push his point, would follow me around argueing; I've tried ignoring him but that doesn't work; I tried to lock myself in the bedroom but he basically doesn't allow m to lock the door, and he stood out there demanding I open it. I was afriad he would kick it in, which he has done before, so I opened it. I have had to lay down in the bathwater just to get away from his words, you know? That is so pathetic. I was to that point, I was screaming for him to just leave me alone, crying.

 

Later that evening he decided to be man enough to admit he was wrong, and he apologized, but that doesn't mean anything anymore when we have brought up this very situation before - our counselor called it "bullying"; that he feels entitled to stand there & speak his mind even if I have had enough & need a break from the arguement.

 

So here I am, not happy with my marriage, waiting for him to get some help, hoping that it will make a difference, and just not feeling close to him whatsoever. But... he thinks I should still want sex. I don't get that. He thinks I am using sex to punish him; I am not. I just don't want to be intimate with him. He has turned me off to it. I want him to be a better husband & improve our relationship, and then maybe those feelings will come back. I feel that as a wife there is to some degree an obligation to have sex with him, maybe not every time he asks, but to do it sometimes even though I don't feel like it. Right now though, I just cannot fathom doing that at all. I don't even know if our marriage is gonna last and he surely doesn't give me much hope... I'm a little baffled that he expects me to be over this; I mean, I'm not walking around mad, but I'm not happy either - hat he did (again) was not okay, sorry doesnt make it better. Changing his behavior might, but sorry only goes so far. Isn't it okay to just not have sex, am I still obligated no matter what the hell he does?

[GirlDown]

of course it is okay to say no.

 

sometimes men think women are using sex to punish them, but how are you expected to be in the mood when he makes you so miserable?

[fyrwyfe]

I should've phrased my question a little better. I don't know how long I'm going to feel disconnected with him, & he's not making it any better by not understanding, our relationship is just crumbling right now. So I'm wondering... at what point should I (if I even should) just suck it up & give it to him? Am I obligated cause he's my husband, even though he's caused me to feel this way? I just feel like it's gonna make him meaner if I don't, but that's not fair either...

[Mz. Pixie]

Frye-

 

I could have written your post a couple of months ago. Except my husband wasn't obsessed with porn...........

 

I ended up leaving the marriage. I was so incredibly miserable. Anyway,

when I first told him I wanted a separation I said, "There will be no sex until I am in a better place emotionally and I feel that you love me" My STBXH accepted that if that was the only way I'd stay.

 

Sounds like your H is all about getting what he wants and not giving you what you need. They don't understand you just can't make love with them when you're not getting along. I did it for a long time and it made me feel like a cheap whore.

 

Tell him until his treatment of you improves and he meets your needs you will not be meeting his.

[fyrwyfe]

That is exactly what I feel like Mz. Pixie - cheap. I've done it many times throughout our marriage when times have not been good and it makes me angry inside; makes me resent him. Escpecially when I know HE knows I'm really not up for it but he'll take it anyway. It bothers me that he never refrains from asking, even when he's been a total jerk - he always has to put me in a position to either say "no" or do it anyway.

 

Just THIS time I feel different in that I don't want to anymore - I don't have that closeness with him, and I'm scared to say that I don't know if we can get it back. In the meantime though, I just don't see the point in sacrificing myself for him anymore, and I hope I'm not wrong in doing that, because I'm not sure of kind of man he will turn into - he may make my life miserable.

[SASSYGIRL]

Hell no! I wouldn't be having sex with him, husband or not, if he was treating me like hell. Everyday conversation is a need in a relationship, its a respect thing. I don't know about you, but when my hubby and I get like this (not as extreme) I won't have sex with him. You get to a point that you have to have something in return. I've learned that giving in to him wanting sex when I don't want it only makes me resent him. It sounds like he doesn't respect you at all. I say hold your ground until you get what makes you happy too! You only live once!!!!!!!

[VenusJ4F]

I agree with SassyGirl. You can not give him what he wants until he can respect you. I was in the almost exact situation as you exept instead of comments in front of children, it was our friends. I just got to the point that I would not give in to him. I have done so many things to try to make him happy and give him what he wants and it did not make it any better. You have to stand your ground and until he can understand that until your needs are meet that you will not give him what he needs. There may be some friction and really hard times, but you have to stand your ground.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by fyrwyfe

He thinks I am using sex to punish him; I am not. I just don't want to be intimate with him.

 

There is NOTHING that you'll be able to say that will make him understand your POV. It's like trying to explain it to your dog. (No offense meant to the guys who are reading. )

 

Believe me, I know how you feel. Been there, done that. It's a very degrading feeling to participate in a sexual encounter in which you are unaroused. Female arousal, of course, is dependent on emotional response to your partner in most cases.

 

Your choices are to either fix the marriage, so that your sexual interest in him returns...or to abandon the marriage altogether.

 

Abstaining from sex will compound the problem, not relieve it. Refusal of sex is an attack at a very fundamental level in a man's view. It's hitting below the belt, as it were.

[Mr Spock]

I agree with ladyjane....you need to make a decision here. Men that aren't having their sexual needs fufilled will go elsewhere eventually.

 

Please don't turn your jerk loose on the world like that.

 

 

I'm not saying you should snap out of your misery and put out. But if your relationship has tanked, end it instead of prolonging the agony.

[ReluctantRomeo]

A male opinion, for what it's worth. I agree with LadyJane and Mr Spock.

 

If you still want to salvage the relationship, you can't shutdown completely. I've not yet worked out how valid this is, but I have heard perfectly respectable relationship counsellors equate the male need for sex to the female need for conversation.... what signal would it send you if he refused to talk and just gave you the silent treatment?

 

Bottom line: manage it in a way that is a compromise between your needs, don't shut it down.

[Lil Honey]

Being his wife doesn't make you less of a human. You have every right to do (or not do) with your body what you wish. (I'll bet he could grasp that concept if he were talking about himSELF.)

 

Guys are wired differently than women. Guys (not necessarily ALL) have this idea that sex is sex and is apart from feelings. Women (not necessarily ALL), OTOH, have an emotional connection to the person that they are intimate with.

 

What I'm saying is that your husband could view it as something to do and you could see it as something to feel.

 

Once again, Mz Pixie said it all for me. When I gave in, I felt cheap. Sadly, when I read a post from a guy who says that his wife has sex like a dead fish, I know exactly how SHE feels, simply because I know that she doesn't want to be there. When it got to the point, where his touch made my skin crawl, it was all I could take.

[Mz. Pixie]

Okay, I agree with Spock and Ladyjane to a certain extent- however it doesn't sound like this man is willing to work on his marriage! She's tried giving in to him when she didn't want to to keep the peace and it didn't work. When my husband told me lack of sex was the problem, I tripled up on it- he said that would make him meet my needs. It didn't work.

 

When it comes down to it- yes you have to choose but there is nothing wrong with not submitting until you make up your mind.

 

I never thought of this as a form of abuse until I did some reading. It is a form of emotional abuse when you have to continually submit for sex to a man who otherwise treats you like a piece of garbage. Just because you are married to him doesn't give him the right to treat you like that.

 

My husband would go away almost every weekend, leaving me at home with our two children. He would come in late Sunday evening from his trip and unpack and finish putting up his stuff. By then the kids would either be in the tub or in bed. I would be exhausted from the weekend and he would say, "How about we go up in the bedroom and you give me some?" Oh yeah, that did it for me- big time!

What he didn't get was that if he would have been home or made me a priority in his life other than spread legs to come home to I would have gladly wanted to make love to him.

 

You're in a bad place and I feel for you honey. I got to the point where I wanted to vomit everytime I thought about having sex with my H. He would pout, sulk and basically throw a fit everytime I said no, even if I was really sick. I would usually give in or give him oral sex to get him to shut up- seething inside because he never did anything for me. I was so depressed I wanted to die.

 

Don't let yourself get to that point.

[Mr Spock]

Oh, I'm not saying she should give in. Just that she needs to make a decision as to where the marriage is going, and it doesn't sound like it's going anywhere but down the toilet.

 

Just please, please don't cut him off and then not kick him out of the house. You create an enviroment where he will go out and seek what you're not giving him.

[fyrwyfe]

Thank for all the advice everyone. I understand what you are saying Mr Spock, but honestly I don't think that I need to be worrying, in addition to everything else, that if I don't have sex with him he's gonna go get it somewhere else. He put me in this situation after all. I'm more worried about him turning into a total a**hole, but if he were to run off & get laid by someone else because he can't get any from me, wouldn't that be a sign of how totally selfish he is? Get real! This is happening because of him, shouldn't he be focusing his attention on fixing this problem? I just don't think it's too much to ask and I don't think that just because he's 'the husband' he should get sex when he want's it, even when he's treated me horrible.

 

Like I said in my previous post, I have given in to him many, many times, and I view that as me putting HIM before myself. How am I supposed to do that now? Sex is supposed to be mutual, and he has made me want to do nothing but hide inside my walls. Why should I let him in? He has treated me like such s**t... shouldn't he have to prove himself, not with words but with actions? Whether to divorce or not is a huge decision, and I realize I need to figure out what I'm gonna do, but his behavior & his actions will have some bearing on my decision. If he gets the help he needs & gives some effort toward our marriage & family rather than always doing for himself, making things can get better. We have children.... it's not so easy to opt out when that decision could tear them up.

[Mr Spock]

I'm more worried about him turning into a total a**hole, but if he were to run off & get laid by someone else because he can't get any from me, wouldn't that be a sign of how totally selfish he is? Get real! This is happening because of him, shouldn't he be focusing his attention on fixing this problem? I just don't think it's too much to ask and I don't think that just because he's 'the husband' he should get sex when he want's it, even when he's treated me horrible.

 

Like I said in my previous post, I have given in to him many, many times, and I view that as me putting HIM before myself. How am I supposed to do that now? Sex is supposed to be mutual, and he has made me want to do nothing but hide inside my walls. Why should I let him in? He has treated me like such s**t... shouldn't he have to prove himself, not with words but with actions?

 

Maybe this would ring true if you weren't married to a completely selfish person who obviously does not care one whit about your feelings. He'd rather be right in an arguement than end it on a positive peaceful note? Get real.

 

I am NOT telling you it's your duty to put out. Just that if you don't, he'll find it somewhere else eventually.

 

From what it sounds like I think you should kick his ass out of the house. Forget being MARRIED to the dude much less having sex with him.

 

It's not right to use your children as an excuse for staying if he is treating you like sh*t in front of them. If your dysfunctional relationship is evident for them to see. And kids are smart. They know. I can see how raising your children is a household that's harmonious, although sans husband, would be MUCH worse than keeping them trapped in the same household as your obviously poisonous relationship. (that was sarcastic. But not meant to be in a MEAN way)

 

 

Again, please don't think I am telling you to have sex with your husband if he's alienated you so badly to the point where it feels like rape. I'm just telling you don't turn your narcissistic assh*le loose on the world as another jerk married dude looking for a lay. If he's as bad as you post him to be, then I wouldn't be suprised if he's already done it.

 

You are in counselling with your husband. How's that working for you then? It appears that it's not. What is next for you? It seems like you're the one putting all the work into this. What's the point of that?

[fyrwyfe]

At this point I am the one putting everything into the relationship. We got into a discussion that quickly turned into an arguement, and he brought up the "D" word again. He says he doesn't want on but just feels he has dug himself a hole so deep that he can't get out. That he has poisoned our relationship. (Ya think?) That he "just want's me to be happy." And here's what gets me... I know where the flippin courthouse is! Don't get a divorce on my behalf, just get your a** to a counselor & start giving effort in this relationship. I told him divorce would be the easy road for him; put us in a really bad spot in our marriage, then bail out. I told him that he is a grown man & if that is what he wants then he should go file, because I can't be married to someone who doesn't want to be with me. I firmly believe that we should turn over every stone before calling it quits, & I think I can say that I have done what I can do, but he on the other hand has not. Maybe I shouldn't worry about what he's doing on his end anymore...

 

 

We eventually worked it out and now (again) he swears he's going to try & that he will not hurt me again. Ok. Like I can believe that, but some effort here may make things just a little smoother. The counseling we have been going to has helped with certain issues - both of us really like him. I think it would've been more successful if we would have gone on a really regular basis. We'd skip a week or two, or even a month depending on how things were going... I guess not the greatest plan when trying to work on a marriage.

 

 

I know I have all the reasons in the world to leave him, but two things really scare me about divorce... firstly is the kids. We fight but not daily, it's just that sometimes an arguement starts, and if it's really big because he did something really mean then it lasts a while. I know that at times it's hard on them when we are at each other, but it seems to me that they will just get screwed up if we divorce. I worry more about the 15 year old then the 5 year old. I swear - if I thought they would be better off if we divorced I would do it. I USED to care about the financial aspect of a divorce; I stay at home with the kids & therefore don't a have my OWN income, and then there's our house, which previously I couldn't bear to lose - don't care anymore. I'll take half our equity & get something else. The other reason is that I know it will get worse before it gets better. That's a scary thought.

 

 

How do I determine what is best for the kids? I would sacrifice my needs to give them the better home life...

 

 

I don't know guys, I'm just glad I have this forum where members care about helping each other & I can bounce ideas off everyone - I so appreciate everybody's advice...

[Mz. Pixie]

Oh Frye, I feel for you hon, I know exactly how you feel.

 

I'm signing my papers today. It's a mix of sadness-hurt-anger-happiness-excitement all rolled up into one.

 

I wanted to post about the kids. I too thought I could never put my kids though their parents divorcing. I came from a broken home and never wanted my kids to. You'd be surprised how far you will go however when you become so miserable you can't stand it.

 

I had a breaking point. My beloved grandmother who raised me and the only person who ever put me before themselves died suddenly. She was 94 but still it was a shock. I went a little out of it for a couple of months- I had had a hysterectomy the week before- and then bam she died- I had to do the funeral, pay for it etc. I began thinking to myself. You know what- I have a beautiful home- two great kids- a good job- but I'm not happy. I dread coming home everyday because I don't have the kind of relationship I want with my husband. He never puts me first- he won't go to counseling- he won't try to meet my needs. What is the point of life? I have always had to be in charge, take care of everyone and everything and the only person who ever put me first is gone from the face of this earth. What do I really have? I'm passing time in a marriage where my husband doesn't want to spend time with me. I'm basically a glorified housekeeper, nanny, financial advisor, parent, prostitute for this man and I get nothing other than a roof over my head for all my efforts. George Strait has a song called "If you ain't lovin- you ain't living" and that summed it all up for me!

 

It hurt so much to tell my kids we were splitting up. The youngest is three and I basically had to do it. He cried through the whole thing. It's been hard on them yes, and it's hard on them now- I'm not going to lie. I couldn't stay for them, I couldn't stay for him. If I would have stayed it would have killed me. They deserve a SANE mother. I wasn't sane when I was living in that situation.

 

Money is tight- I'm living in a tiny 2 bedroom apartment when they are with me (we split custody) and they have to share a room. It won't always be like that. For me, leaving was the harder option- staying and working it out couldn't have been this hard but I still wouldn't have been happy I don't think because I couldn't connect with him on a sexual level.

 

I am happier now in that little apartment with no money than I was in the last three or four years of my marriage. I've met a great guy and we're building a great relationship. Things are progressing well in that area of my life. I think my kids are beginning to adjust- it's been several months since I moved out. I think children can adjust as long as their parents seem adjusted and happy. Sure they will miss the other parent but that's normal.

 

It's ultimately you that has to live in that house with him and lay down and submit to sex with him when you don't want to. You have to decide if you can live with that. If so, that's great- and if he's willing to make a change. I just couldn't do it.

 

I'm rambling but I'm in a thoughtful and emotional mood.

[fyrwyfe]

Pix - Reading that you are signing papers today makes me tear up. How hard it must be, but I can imaging there being some relief in that too. I will be thinking about you today. I'll probably there some day too. The feelings you describe about the life you were living with your husband, that's me - all the different 'hats' you wear but get nothing in return, that's me too. It's so sad. I don't have much hope for us but will try anything until every option has been exhausted... and if it comes to that then I can walk out knowing there was nothing more I could've done. Good luck with you today, and thanks so much for you input and kind words...

[Mz. Pixie]

I am about to head there now to sign. I'll be signing at my attorney's office so I won't have to see him. We try to miss each other- pick the kids up from daycare when it's our turn to have them etc.

 

I was telling BF last night how I was feeling and he said it's perfectly normal. He said he felt that way when his D was final, even though he had exhausted all of his efforts to make it work (she cheated for 18 months before she left him).

 

I was explaining to him how let down I feel at my failure to keep this committment, even though I know I couldn't keep it alone. I was incredibly committed to this person for a very long time (13 years married, five dating) and the sheer committment kept me in the marriage longer than the feelings.

 

Change and fear of the unknown is a very scary thing. That probably keeps alot of people, particularly women, from leaving when they feel like they should. That is changing now though because more and more women are not willing to settle for half of a marriage.

 

It's very comforting to know that I'm not alone though. I'm not the type of person who HAS to have someone to be happy- but I met him and we clicked and even though it wasn't the right time for a relationship it just happened. We have both joked that this feels so much like first love for both of us at our age!

 

I will check in this afternoon if I feel like posting.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by fyrwyfe

I firmly believe that we should turn over every stone before calling it quits, & I think I can say that I have done what I can do, but he on the other hand has not. Maybe I shouldn't worry about what he's doing on his end anymore...

 

You can't control "what he's doing on his end" anway. You can only control what you do. Your expectation that he should step up to the plate, and do his part is understandable. The fact that he's failing to do it though, is adding to your sense of frustration and resentment.

 

Each partner needs to put in 100% commitment in order to reconcile a troubled marriage. If you stop doing your 100%, and wait for him to start putting in his 100%, I guarantee you that you'll face disappointment. If he was going to come charging in on his white horse to save this thing, he'd have probably done so by now.

 

I doubt that he sees the need to do it. I'll be honest with you, my husband didn't see it either until I met with an attorney. If you look around right here on this forum, you'll see that there are LOTS of people who don't see the need to work on the relationship....until it's too late and the relationship is over.

 

As I said before, there are only 2 choices available to you..either repair the marriage, or end it. The fact that he's not stepping up to the plate doesn't excuse you from doing your part if you elect saving the marriage. Against great odds, you must still do your 100%. Doing otherwise will compound your problems.

 

That is not to say that you should participate in sexual activities that you find repugnant. I've learned that men don't want mercy sex anyway. So, giving in and having reluctant sex with him is NOT fulfilling his EN's. His EN is to feel loved. It's passionate sex that makes a man feel loved. Reluctant sex just makes him feel inadaquate, thereby also compounding the problem.

 

Men are men. Women are women. We don't think alike. We don't respond to the same expressions of love and devotion.

 

Your man may very well just be a really bad one, without any redeeming qualities. We don't know, we only know what you post to us. If he's not worth your effort....leave him. But if he is worth it to you....then you have to put your effort to good use.

 

I'm not telling you what to do. I was where you are once, and I repaired my marriage. I'm mostly happy today. Ms Pixie was where you are once, and she elected to leave the situation. She seems to be happy with her choice as well.

 

Only you can decide what's best for you. But some of the agony that you're feeling is probably caused by INDECISION. It's tough to live in the limbo that you feel when you haven't decided on your course of action.

[Mz. Pixie]

I did make the decision to end the marriage, but please note only after he'd denied every avenue of me trying to save the marriage. I worked on myself, I went to counseling, I read the books, articles. He just wasn't willing until it was too late for me. You can only hold up a marriage so long my yourself and I had done it for a long time.

 

LJ- you are right on on the differences in men and women. We just are different. I even tried to give my x a example, because I heard in a marriage seminar that men respond to being shown what the problem is.

 

I said, "Honey, I feel unloved and unappreciated when you only give me affection when you want something from me sexually. Picture this- I looked down at his penis and tapped it with my hand like you would pat a child on the head and said, "There there- see ya next month". Would that hold your sexual need over? He said, "No" so I said, "It doesn't hold over my need for affection and attention either". It was like a lightbulb went off in his head- for about two weeks. Then it was back to the same old thing again.

[fyrwyfe]

We had been fighting a lot & in Jan decided to try a fresh start. He was totally happy with how are relationship was progressing & we were great for about a month, yet he still managed to make things go sour again by breaking trust, lying, being sneaky, etc... at that point I was giving 100% and he clearly was not. So if our newfound happiness didn't keep him from screwing things up, then what will is what I am wondering?

 

Since then he continues to do things to push me farther away, yet he want's everything to be normal and wants me to try again. I am wondering how many times I can do this... let him in so he can screw me over. I'm not claiming to be perfect, but if he were to post here, he would admit to causing the problems I have talked about.

 

Ladyjane - You're right. I do have to give 100% also if it's going to work. I guess I'm just afraid to do that because that means I will be vulnerable to being hurt again. He says he's gonna do what it takes to prove himself, but it's so hard to turn off my hurt feeling and lack of trust... How do I give 100% when I feel this way?

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by Mz. Pixie

I did make the decision to end the marriage, but please note only after he'd denied every avenue of me trying to save the marriage. I worked on myself, I went to counseling, I read the books, articles. He just wasn't willing until it was too late for me. You can only hold up a marriage so long my yourself and I had done it for a long time.

 

There's ALOT that one person can do to repair their relationship. But....in the end the effort must be MUTUAL with each person displaying an on-going commitment to keeping the relationship healthy.

 

My husband, met me halfway. It took a loooong time for him to get there, but he made it. I can't begin to describe to you how SHOCKED I was that he did, because I had given up hope.

 

Ms Pixie's husband apparently never reached that level of understanding....and lost his wife because of it. That's sad, but some people never do get it.

 

Time will tell if your husband is one who will eventually see the need to work on his marriage or not.

 

In the meantime, you might consider getting a new MC, or increasing the frequency of your sessions. You said earlier that you both liked the therapist, but perhaps a new technique might be in order, since you aren't making much progress. (????)

[fyrwyfe]

I think he needs to start seeing an individual counselor like our MC suggested, then maybe we can up our own sessions to weekly as well. Our MC has already told him that if he doesn't stop these bad behaviors that I will probably leave him, and that it would be because of what he's done, not anything I've done. We see him again on Monday, thank goodness. He really has a way of getting through to my husband, but if if he doesn't act on the advice that he's given then it's not going to any good.

 

I don't know... I mean, I can see that we both need to try, but that's going to be so hard after all this. I don't know how to put it all aside. You know the saying 'fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me' - I feel like I'm so far gone that I am becoming a spineless doormat. I think if I would have treated him the way he has treated me, yet he continued to stay with me, that I would figure I could keep on behaving any way I wan't because he obviously never leaves. So it is a double-edged sword here? Damned if I do, damned if I don't?

[Mz. Pixie]

Fyre- yes, I hear you loud and clear.

 

My mother was mentally ill and she had a pattern of hurting me while yet saying "I love you- you are everything to me-" blah blah. But then her ACTIONS wouldn't reflect any of that. I grew to distrust words when the actions don't back it up.

 

That is what H's emotional abandonment did to me. He paid lip service to how much he loved me, how I was his number one priority but then his actions never reflected that. If he would have loved me and put me first he would have stayed home those 230 weekends over our marriage that he was gone.

 

As time went on and I confronted him about his behavior he would say he would change or make an effort. He would for a week or so then I would be back to the bottom of the list. This happened 15 or 20 times. So, then when he would tell me he loved me or something it just went in one ear and out the other. Because my mom had done it to me and he had done it to me. That is why I couldn't believe him when he said he would do whatever it took to keep me. Yeah, he probably would have in the short term but it would have been the same thing again. He's so selfish he's not capable of putting anyone before himself.

 

That is one of the first things I told my bf. Your actions have to match your words with me or else I will not believe you. Don't get me wrong I love to hear sweet things but I want the treatment that goes along with it.