Who "should" ask who out...

[somedude81]

And who wouldn't want to be one of those elite and special few.....

 

 

(Most girls aren't super eager to go out with someone who isn't really into her and for whom she's just the only option obviously available. I sure don't.)

 

So you rather that the guy you like not give you a chance to see if you're a cool person?

[Keenly]

Given my experiences, I feel that a woman asking a man out does work in very specific situations. Like:

 

-the woman is only looking for a short-term fling

-the woman is exceptionally good at picking out guys who are interested, so she doesn't run into a lot of "maybe" guys who will waste her time

-the woman has a particularly aggressive personality, and likes being in charge

 

I feel in other situations, the guy should ask the girl out. I feel this because:

 

-The girl is already doing the work to be attractive. To put in the amount of work required (gentlemen who love to snark about how "getting dressed and makeup" aren't a big deal, please talk to your lady friends. Women put in hours of effort to pick out good-fitting clothes, look good, and put on good-looking make-up), and then also have to do the initiating feels extremely lop-sided. If guys start to spend hours looking physically good, okay, but I feel it's deeply unfair to expect a woman to be attractive AND expect her to take on all of the flirting/initiating/risk of rejection

-Going off the first point, I've found that even when dating is "successful" and I end up in a relationship with the guy, he continues to expect me to do all the work. I have to plan the dates, I have to do all of the emotional lifting, I have to do the majority of the initiating, etc. But really, why should I be surprised? By asking the guy out, I made it clear that he can just sit back and be catered to, and that he doesn't need to do anything to be with me.

-You get labeled. I mentioned a girl I know in the other thread; she asks guys out and is assertively flirty. Because of this, she has gained a reputation as being desperate and slutty, even though she actually hasn't slept with a lot of guys. Girls don't trust her around their boyfriends, even though she has never knowingly hit on a taken guy. Because she is assertive and asks guys out, she gets labeled negatively.

-Guys assume things about girls who do the asking. They either assume you are desperate (why else do you have to chase after men? If you were attractive, men would be hitting on you), slutty ("She's hitting on me, which means she's up for sex right now"), or masculine.

Even if the guy is flattered and goes out with you, he isn't going to make you his girlfriend. It's the same logic that a lot of guys use about girls who sleep with them on the first date. A girl who sleeps with him on the first date is a slut, and thus not girlfriend material.... even if the guy actively enjoyed sleeping with her. Likewise, a guy may enjoy a girl asking him out, but it earns her a strike in the "Girlfriend" category.

 

Putting on makeup and dressing up does not count as putting in effort.

 

That's 100% passive. Its the same as me saying " well I left the house, so that's my effort"

[Shining One]

Every time a woman has asked me out, it's turned out well. They were interested and they chose to act upon it. It certainly raised my level of respect for them and I found it very attractive. I'll echo what others have said: Anyone can ask.

 

 

From a pure logic and efficiency standpoint, it makes more sense for women to do the asking. Women are significantly more selective when it comes to who they are attracted to. Men are far less selective. Thus, if women did the asking, there would be less asking overall. Of course, this is dating, so logic goes out the window.

[somedude81]

For the record, my ex GF had a secret crush on me for a couple of months before out first date.

 

We were friends in a dance class, and she had a boyfriend.

 

Shortly after the class ended she started making very obvious moves she was interested in me through email. I quickly found out that she had broken up with her boyfriend and we then went on a date soon after.

 

I quickly became absolutely crazy about her, until she dumped me down the line.

[Toodaloo]

So, the answer to this thread is BOTH men and women should ask each other out. Not one or the other. This will make things equal.

 

 

No its not.

 

There is no answer because the view points are so varied.

 

Some men would take offence to a woman asking them out, some would be really put off by it, some would enjoy it and some would be completely up for going out with a woman that asked him out.

 

Some women would not feel comfortable asking a man out, some women do feel comfortable...

 

The list is endless - it is a question that can't be answered because there are too many variables...

 

I think if women did most of the asking then they would end up labelled and men would hear that they were sluts etc and get the wrong idea before they started... Its very easy to get labelled - have had it happen to myself and it was during a celibate 4 years where I was not looking to date and was not showing any interest in anyone...

[verhrzn]

So you rather that the guy you like not give you a chance to see if you're a cool person?

 

Can't speak for her, but for myself, yes I'd prefer that. I have yet to have a guy change his mind about me. If a guy isn't attracted to me, he isn't attracted to me. No use wasting everyone's time confirming it. I have never ever heard of a guy who suddenly became attracted to a girl because of her personality. I've heard of guys who became more attracted, but they had to be somewhat into her in the first place.

 

Putting on makeup and dressing up does not count as putting in effort.

 

That's 100% passive. Its the same as me saying " well I left the house, so that's my effort"

 

Except it isn't passive. It is actively looking good. It is actively appearing attractive. A lot of guys really have no freaking idea how much effort women put in to look good. It is far, far more than most of the guys I know. Looking good takes a hell of a lot of effort.

 

If you refuse to ask your female friends how much time, effort and money it takes for them to look good, look at Hollywood. Actors and actresses are, more or less, equally attractive looking. And yet a guy can roll into a rewards show with a suit... a suit that probably took at most an hour to pick out, because suits are not exactly that diverse. He probably did very little about his hair, and is probably wearing no make-up or accessories.

 

Compare that with almost any actress at a rewards show. Her dress is probably unique, tailored to fit her body, she's wearing carefully executed make-up, the accessories match... It takes a lot of effort and attention to detail.

 

Men and women have that same dynamic, on a much smaller scale. I mean, hell, on this site, when I've talked about how I never get hit on, the advice is always: -best fitting clothes -more attractive make-up -better body

 

The fact that I already wear decent clothes and wear make-up every day doesn't matter. I have to put even more effort in to be attractive for a guy to say yes in the first place when I ask him out.

[verhrzn]

Every time a woman has asked me out, it's turned out well. They were interested and they chose to act upon it. It certainly raised my level of respect for them and I found it very attractive. I'll echo what others have said: Anyone can ask.

 

From a pure logic and efficiency standpoint, it makes more sense for women to do the asking. Women are significantly more selective when it comes to who they are attracted to. Men are far less selective. Thus, if women did the asking, there would be less asking overall. Of course, this is dating, so logic goes out the window.

 

Women are not more selective. Why do you guys insist on telling these lies??

 

Post a thread asking women, and then asking men, to post who they find attractive. I bet money, the thread in which women respond will have a huge diverse array of looks.... thin guys, bigger guys, taller guys, shorter guys, white guys, black guys, the whole range.

 

And I bet actual money the men's thread, with a few exceptions, will have the same cookie-cutter: long hair, big boobs, small waist, shapely legs, straight nose look.

 

Women can be persuaded by confidence and personality. Men cannot-either they're attracted to the girl (and become more attracted), or they're not. And that's why it makes sense for a guy to ask a girl out. The guy has a chance to make the girl fall for him. The girl asking the guy out has no chance, because other he was attracted to her (in which case he would have asked her out), or he wasn't, and she has NO way of knowing.

 

Put it another way. There's PUA for men that focus on personality, conversation techniques, body language, and persuasion. Ya know the PUA techniques for girls? "Look hotter." If guys can be persuaded by personality, why aren't there PUA manuals for women?

Edited October 9, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Keenly]

Its not effort. Sorry. Effort implies action. Action isn't passive. Makeup and clothes are passive.

 

 

I think that just like men when it comes to women, some women have no ides what men want or how they think.

[Toodaloo]

I have yet to have a guy change his mind about me. If a guy isn't attracted to me, he isn't attracted to me. No use wasting everyone's time confirming it. I have never ever heard of a guy who suddenly became attracted to a girl because of her personality. I've heard of guys who became more attracted, but they had to be somewhat into her in the first place.

 

Agree with this completely - so for me its simple. If he likes me enough he will ask. If he doesn't then I am not missing anything by him not asking and me not being aggressive in my approach and asking myself because he just doesn't like me enough.

[Keenly]

Every time a woman has asked me out, it's turned out well. They were interested and they chose to act upon it. It certainly raised my level of respect for them and I found it very attractive. I'll echo what others have said: Anyone can ask.

 

From a pure logic and efficiency standpoint, it makes more sense for women to do the asking. Women are significantly more selective when it comes to who they are attracted to. Men are far less selective. Thus, if women did the asking, there would be less asking overall. Of course, this is dating, so logic goes out the window.

 

Women are not more selective. Why do you guys insist on telling these lies??

 

Post a thread asking women, and then asking men, to post who they find attractive. I bet money, the thread in which women respond will have a huge diverse array of looks.... thin guys, bigger guys, taller guys, shorter guys, white guys, black guys, the whole range.

 

And I bet actual money the men's thread, with a few exceptions, will have the same cookie-cutter: long hair, big boobs, small waist, shapely legs, straight nose look.

 

Women can be persuaded by confidence and personality. Men cannot-either they're attracted to the girl (and become more attracted), or they're not. And that's why it makes sense for a guy to ask a girl out. The guy has a chance to make the girl fall for him. The girl asking the guy out has no chance, because other he was attracted to her (in which case he would have asked her out), or he wasn't, and she has NO way of knowing.

 

Put it another way. There's PUA for men that focus on personality, conversation techniques, body language, and persuasion. Ya know the PUA techniques for girls? "Look hotter." If guys can be persuaded by personality, why aren't there PUA manuals for women?

 

 

 

try your experiment. I dare you. Watch the female thread have repeating names . I bet every woman picks dude from SoA. That's pretty cookie cutter.

[Toodaloo]

Its not effort. Sorry. Effort implies action. Action isn't passive. Makeup and clothes are passive.

 

 

I think that just like men when it comes to women, some women have no ides what men want or how they think.

 

This is true most of us have no clue...

 

But to imply that someone is just sitting pretty in the corner because they don't ask men out is really not reality.

 

The reality is that make up is touched up, clothes carefully selected adjusted changed, then on top of all that we go out and converse and talk to people to get to know them. We flirt with those we are attracted to and try to make our attraction known so they have ample opportunity to ask is NOT passive.

[somedude81]

Can't speak for her, but for myself, yes I'd prefer that. I have yet to have a guy change his mind about me. If a guy isn't attracted to me, he isn't attracted to me. No use wasting everyone's time confirming it. I have never ever heard of a guy who suddenly became attracted to a girl because of her personality. I've heard of guys who became more attracted, but they had to be somewhat into her in the first place.

 

 

Just because a guy hasn't asked a girl out, doesn't mean he's not attracted to her.

 

A guy be attracted to a girl, but she may be a bit difficult to have a conversation with, so he assumes she's not interested and he moves on.

 

There are also girls that are cute, but that don't "wow" me. After getting to know them better, their personality combines with their looks and then the wow sets in. My ex is one such example.

 

So yes, that was a case of me becoming more attracted to her but I somewhat into her in the first place. Though "somewhat into" pretty much applies to every girl I've talked to more than once.

[Keenly]

Agree with this completely - so for me its simple. If he likes me enough he will ask. If he doesn't then I am not missing anything by him not asking and me not being aggressive in my approach and asking myself because he just doesn't like me enough.

 

How's that working out for you?

[Imported]

 

 

From a pure logic and efficiency standpoint, it makes more sense for women to do the asking. Women are significantly more selective when it comes to who they are attracted to. Men are far less selective. Thus, if women did the asking, there would be less asking overall. Of course, this is dating, so logic goes out the window.

 

Don't speak for me, I am very selective and I don't need nor do I want, women I have no interest in asking me out. In fact, please don't! Your logic and efficiency views are just a rationalization to make yourself feel better.

 

From a "logic" standpoint, people aren't logical when dealing with people. Most don't know wtf they are doing. Most people "playing games" aren't playing games. They just actually don't know wtf they are doing and try really hard to protect their ego and appear like they are cool. Look beyond that. You know, sight beyond sight. Thundercats.

 

Be the guy that knows what he is doing. And also, be attractive looking. Women will show you interest, it will be obvious. Women are pretty damn emotional, without trying. Somethings, they don't hide very well. Most basement dwelling, video game playing boys hide their emotions much better.

 

Choose the one you actually want of the women that are obviously interested and go up to her. It'll be easy. You ever get a pre-approved loan? It's kinda like that. It's pretty much yours for the taking.

 

Sure, there are some women that are dingbats. You don't need to point out the exceptions.

[Imported]

How's that working out for you?

 

If she's attractive, it'll work out very well.

[somedude81]

 

 

Except it isn't passive. It is actively looking good. It is actively appearing attractive. A lot of guys really have no freaking idea how much effort women put in to look good. It is far, far more than most of the guys I know. Looking good takes a hell of a lot of effort.

 

If you refuse to ask your female friends how much time, effort and money it takes for them to look good[/b]

 

On a daily basis, do women spend hours every day to look good? I really doubt it. And if they did, there is no reason to.

 

The average young woman looks really good when all she's wearing is a tight shirt and shorts/jeans. Then she has light makeup and her hair isn't in a mess. That's it.

 

Everything else is extra that guys just don't care about.

 

A lot of girls try too hard to look good, with layers and accessories that are just a distraction.

[sdrawkcaB ssA]

Beware.

 

Gosh no! In my laptop too! *Pulls DVD ROM drive out and uses flashlight and magnifying glass* Hello anyone in there??? Ah, playing with my paranoia are you!

[Toodaloo]

How's that working out for you?

 

Actually quite well.

 

I got to know a chap, made it clear that I liked him, he made his move and I accepted.

 

The fact that it was all bollocks as he was not over his wife was a mis-judgement on my part. I did not ask, he did the running (with my encouragement!).

 

So its not that my tactics are not working more that I am liking the wrong men, hence my enforced break to take time and sort out my boundaries and priorities (which are not dating related).

 

When I have done the asking and taken the driving seat I have soon learnt that the chaps are in fact lazy (all round not just shy as I first thought) and can't be bothered (with anything much). They let me do the running because they are not bothered and I become one of the "your there so you will do" women.

 

To put it bluntly they are just not all that into me. Now I am not bothered much by that. I would rather not waste my time on someone who is not all that bothered by me and would rather they went and found someone they are into and leave me free to do the same. However when I have made the guy do the running (with my active encouragement) I have been treated much better and the relationship has been much happier for both parties...

 

Surely the purpose is not just to date but to date people you are into.

[verhrzn]

Its not effort. Sorry. Effort implies action. Action isn't passive. Makeup and clothes are passive.

 

Learning how to apply makeup, learning how to dress well, making the effort to put on makeup and dress well.... these are actions.

 

On a daily basis, do women spend hours every day to look good? I really doubt it. And if they did, there is no reason to.

 

The average young woman looks really good when all she's wearing is a tight shirt and shorts/jeans. Then she has light makeup and her hair isn't in a mess. That's it.

 

Yes, they do. I am considered a "5-6", and yet I put tons of hours into my hair, make-up and clothing. This weekend, I got my hair cut (took an hour), went dress and make-up shopping (3 hours) for a wedding. My boyfriend? Will shower and put on the same old suit he always wears, and he will be considered just as attractive as me, despite me putting in twice as much time, effort and money.

 

Dude, you have no idea. Just no idea. No, the "average girl" doesn't look good wearing that outfit. The cut of the shorts, the type of T-shirt, the "light" makeup... do you even know what that means? I have shown you pictures where I was exactly that, and you found me unattractive. You yourself to put in more effort. I mean, seriously, Somedude. You yourself undermine your own argument.

[boilingpoint]

No its not.

 

There is no answer because the view points are so varied.

 

Some men would take offence to a woman asking them out, some would be really put off by it, some would enjoy it and some would be completely up for going out with a woman that asked him out.

 

Some women would not feel comfortable asking a man out, some women do feel comfortable...

 

The list is endless - it is a question that can't be answered because there are too many variables...

 

I think if women did most of the asking then they would end up labelled and men would hear that they were sluts etc and get the wrong idea before they started... Its very easy to get labelled - have had it happen to myself and it was during a celibate 4 years where I was not looking to date and was not showing any interest in anyone...

 

Who cares if you're labeled? Have confidence and be your own person. If a guy takes offence at you asking them out and essentially complimenting them they are idiots and not worth wasting your time on.

 

When you say 'there's no answer' I can't see how you disagree completely with what I said i.e. both men and women can make a move if they choose to. There shouldn't be a 'rule' about who does the asking i.e. putting pressure/expectations on the man.

 

Can't speak for her, but for myself, yes I'd prefer that. I have yet to have a guy change his mind about me. If a guy isn't attracted to me, he isn't attracted to me. No use wasting everyone's time confirming it. I have never ever heard of a guy who suddenly became attracted to a girl because of her personality. I've heard of guys who became more attracted, but they had to be somewhat into her in the first place.

 

Agree with this completely - so for me its simple. If he likes me enough he will ask. If he doesn't then I am not missing anything by him not asking and me not being aggressive in my approach and asking myself because he just doesn't like me enough.

 

Guys are just as much into personality as girls. You also both have to be physically attracted to each other for it to work. Ok guys are maybe worse at rejecting so you have to decide when to cut losses... women maybe reject too much so you don't even get a chance... essentially these are things you have to deal with in dating because of social conditioning of both sexes.

 

You have to judge the guy you're dealing with in a particular case and if he isn't asking you out it doesn't mean he isn't interested. So take a risk, ask him out yourself and if he does seem blasé just ditch him for a while and go onto the next guy.

Edited October 8, 2014 by boilingpoint

[somedude81]

Learning how to apply makeup, learning how to dress well, making the effort to put on makeup and dress well.... these are actions.

 

 

 

Yes, they do. I am considered a "5-6", and yet I put tons of hours into my hair, make-up and clothing. This weekend, I got my hair cut (took an hour), went dress and make-up shopping (3 hours) for a wedding. My boyfriend? Will shower and put on the same old suit he always wears, and he will be considered just as attractive as me, despite me putting in twice as much time, effort and money.

 

If you consider yourself, a 5-6 with putting in that much effort. Do you think you'd be a 3-4 if you put in half as much work?

 

The answer is no. You'd still be a 5-6.

 

The only people who would tell/know that you didn't put in a ton of time/effort is yourself and possibly other women.

 

Dude, you have no idea. Just no idea. No, the "average girl" doesn't look good wearing that outfit. The cut of the shorts, the type of T-shirt, the "light" makeup... do you even know what that means?

 

Uh, I live in SoCal and I'm finishing up my last semester of college. Tight shirt and shorts is pretty much the uniform for girls around here on a daily basis. Unless a girl is really fat, they all look good.

 

I have shown you pictures where I was exactly that, and you found me unattractive. You yourself to put in more effort. I mean, seriously, Somedude. You yourself undermine your own argument.

 

Dude, I have never said that you look unattractive. The only thing I've ever had an issue with about you is that you do the FWB thing. Your appearance was never a negative.

[Toodaloo]

Who cares if you're labeled? Have confidence and be your own person.

 

Doesn't mean you can't give it a shot with the guy you kinda like... ;-)

 

I care if I am labelled. I care about the consequences of that. You do not have to look at me in the mirror every day I do. I want to continue to do that with out being ashamed.

 

I do not want people looking at me and thinking I am a whore. Nor do I want to suffer the indignity of other women believing those rumours and accusing me of sleeping with their husbands... Sorry but its just not worth it.

 

Yes that does happen and all I did to warrant it was be "nice" in the course of my work. I ended up having to leave. My bosses were very upset as I was very hard working and it was difficult to replace me. The people spreading these rumours thought it was "funny" and a joke. They were sorry. It still didn't stop them doing it to the next lass that was nice to them...

 

I don't live in a big city - I live in a small rural area where everyone knows everyone. It is devastating and even after 20 years people still remember how "wild" I was in those days (I was working from 5:30am - 11-12pm, 7 days a week, had no social life and was exhausted all the time - totally rad eh!)...

 

I have tried asking before on several occasions (all be it many many years ago) and it has never worked. So I went to the self help books etc and they all advised that women should encourage, but not make the move. That women should not take the front seat but should lead from behind so their men feel masculine and in control... Tell me what is wrong with wanting the man I date to feel good about himself? if it means that I have to stand back then so be it. I will stand back.

[Shining One]

Women are not more selective. Why do you guys insist on telling these lies???

This is rather interesting. I went out to find some studies to help prove my point and I came across this. I'll do some more reading on this later, but I find it fascinating. Basically, the study shows that women are currently more selective because they are approached more often. When the situation was reversed in the study (women did the approaching), they were less selective.

 

 

Don't speak for me, I am very selective and I don't need nor do I want, women I have no interest in asking me out. In fact, please don't! Your logic and efficiency views are just a rationalization to make yourself feel better.

I did not claim to speak for all men. My logic and efficiency views are not rationalization to make myself feel better. It was merely an observation. I actually feel that gender should not determine who does the asking.

 

 

Apparently, I may be wrong about the inherent selectiveness of women as shown by the study above. I have more reading to do.

[Frank2thepoint]

I have yet to have a guy change his mind about me. If a guy isn't attracted to me, he isn't attracted to me. No use wasting everyone's time confirming it. I have never ever heard of a guy who suddenly became attracted to a girl because of her personality. I've heard of guys who became more attracted, but they had to be somewhat into her in the first place.

 

Not including basic attraction in the argument which anyone can have for someone, I tend to get attracted to a woman once I get to know her, if her personality matches mine. I had gone on two dates with a woman that I knew for ten months, never thought of her anyway romantically, just as another human being, until she began remembering things about me. I gauged her personality through more random chatting, and asked her out once I liked what I knew so far.

 

On the flipside, I've met women that were attractive, and I liked them just because of physical looks. Once I talked to them, I didn't like their personality at all. I never even bothered to try to ask them out, regardless if they would of said yes.

[d0nnivain]

women should encourage, but not make the move. That women should not take the front seat but should lead from behind so their men feel masculine and in control... Tell me what is wrong with wanting the man I date to feel good about himself? if it means that I have to stand back then so be it. I will stand back.

 

There is a bit of an art to this . . . driving from the back seat but it depends on the man.

 

I tried encouraging 1st.

 

I met an attractive man at an event. We chatted for most of the time. Turns out he was in the market for a service I provide so the bulk of the conversation was work / professional. When it was time for me to go, I handed him my business card & told him that I'd be happy to help him if he called but I'd be happier if he called me for personal reasons. I winked as I said the last part & left.

 

A few days later he called & asked me to dinner. Over dinner he admitted that if I had not said that he never would have called.

 

Whatever approach you take, you have to be happy in your own skin & with your choices. There is nothing wrong with asking a man out but if by doing so you think you are emasculating him, then it's going to end up in disaster.

 

With the man who is now my husband, I maneuvered situations so we'd be alone. I send short messages & voice mails. I made sure to get off the phone quickly & 1st. It was tough because he wasn't responding the way I expected him to. I finally gave up & let my alpha side loose & we were both happier.