When You Suspect Infidelity In Your Marriage

[Owl]

LJ-

 

So how would you defend someone cashing in a $1200 CD without discussing that with their spouse, and the money just disappears?

 

I agree that it may not be an affair...and that this guy may be overreacting on some things...but there is SOMETHING going on here that they need to get addressed and fixed in their marriage.

 

And as far as Uberfrau's comment that people hide affairs from EVERYONE: That's not absolutely true. They'll share them with people that they think will SUPPORT them in what they're doing. The only reason they hide them is because they know that they're wrong, and they don't want to be slammed for their actions. If they know they'll be supported, they'll share, to attempt to justify their actions.

 

As far as the rest of Uber's comments: These comments are in no way meant to assist anyone...they're attacking, they're borderline racist, and I am REALLY hoping that we can get a moderator to finally come in and do something about your posts.

[Ladyjane14]

Originally posted by Owl

LJ- So how would you defend someone cashing in a $1200 CD without discussing that with their spouse, and the money just disappears?

 

I agree that it may not be an affair...and that this guy may be overreacting on some things...but there is SOMETHING going on here that they need to get addressed and fixed in their marriage.

 

I agree that there's SOMETHING going on that's just unhealthy for the marriage, and that NGM should make an effort to find out what it is. I just think he's making a mistake in drawing conclusions without supporting facts.

 

Without knowing exactly what's going on....he could be exacerbating the problem. He's making an assumption that there MUST be infidelity in play and REACTING accordingly.

 

She could have given the $1200. to a divorce lawyer, or spent it in a casino, or spent it on illicit drugs, or spent it on her boyfriend. His reaction, assuming that his goal is to preserve the marriage, would need to be taylored specifically to the facts.

[Owl]

Aye, since she's hiding SOMETHING, I think the steps I've recommended he take still apply. He'll be able to get a handle on who she's communicating with (could be OM, could be dealer, could be bookie, could be lawyer, etc...), and where the money's going.

 

At this point, if the communication has broken down to where they CAN'T talk about what the problem is, I don't think he'll be able to get her to address it until he exposes whatever the issue is. That, or escalate the issue to the point where she HAS to acknowledge it...make it clear to her that he can't live with her under these circumstances.

 

Regardless...good luck!

[whichwayisup]

She could have given the $1200. to a divorce lawyer, or spent it in a casino, or spent it on illicit drugs, or spent it on her boyfriend. His reaction, assuming that his goal is to preserve the marriage, would need to be taylored specifically to the facts.

 

Thing is, WHY Did she take it in the first place and deny taking it when asked??? He saw her take it!

 

As for our little rude posting buddy, SOME of what he/she says could be more helpful but usually it isn't. Owl said it properly ... "These comments are in no way meant to assist anyone...they're attacking, they're borderline racist"

 

Something is going on in this marriage and something isn't right with her. She has given him enough reason to doubt and act suspicious. May not be an affair but the red flags are flying high most of the time. He is married to her so he knows that she's changed somehow.

[ubermann]

Well owl looks like they canned uberfrau.. I had hoped someone would've done something about your posts when you told this one fella to date my wife and accused her of an open marriage. You never understood her points. I read it all and many just did not understand her, so good work buddy. She'll get another profile though.

[whichwayisup]

LOL! You're blaming OWL for your wife being kicked off the site??? YOU Ever sit and read what she writes to other peoples posts???? HELLOOOO? I personally think you both are the same fricken person. WTF is going on and I don't undertand what you're talking about. I must have missed something!

[ubermann]

It may have not been owl but its a coincidence that he makes the comment and she is now disabled. Honestly We are 2 different people. I used to post as Portableversion or dude x. I have posted on her thread and read her posts. I agree she really incited anger but then I got mad when when I saw people attack her with assumptions that were not correct and it started with her first thread the myth of monogamy. I thought it was time to create ubermann to try to maybe chill things out a little. We discussed her posts together hell i yelled at her on here on day, but now her profile is disabled.

But I wanted to create ubermann when I read other people saying they ought to date her, I thought thats enough. People made insinuations that we had some kind of kinky arrangement going on and I did not want to read that. We have no kinky arrangements. We have our problems like everyone else.

 

I always liked reading the ls and I found it helpful.

I assure you if you lived with me you would've probably made much worse comments. I can't take all the credit for her posts but I cant hepl to think I helped it out.

 

PLus i showed her this site, I brought her here.

[moimeme]

People don't get people banned that I've ever seen. It has only ever been their own behaviour. She must've really let loose on someone once too often.

[GetOverYourself]

Hey friend...

 

and I feel like I could possibly be your friend.

 

I just gotta tell you.................I am a cheater. I cheated, years later cheated again, and currently idealize cheating. I will never ever ever save my own marriage. I think I married someone who won't care.

 

 

I am an expert on cheating. I have chosen to give you the benefit of knowledge and I will not ever be on this website again.

 

 

Sweetheart, cheaters will DO WHAT THEY CAN.

 

They will have:

a)the most complicated plans

b)the most reasonable excuses

c) the most logical explanations

d)and the common denominator is that you are an a=hole if you don't go along with it

 

 

Your wife is a cheater., I takes one to know one. I am one. She probably thinks you are a jerk. Bust her out cold enough to warrant respect - (it's worth regaining_ and then I think you should move on with a single life. (she has, and you are still married)

 

If you need a friend, I would love to be that friend.

 

I am happily married, but I know the insides of a ruined relationship and I will always listen to you. my e-mail is [email protected]

[Owl]

Ubermann-

 

I have no intentions of "threadjacking" here...please take a look at the pinned thread at the top of the infidelity site for my response to your comments here. It's the one that was authored by Midori. Thank you!

[NiceGuyMojo]

Most here will agree that something is definitely up! After some serious soul searching I found my approach was all wrong. I love her very much and am not going to give up on her, our marriage or kids that easy.

 

We had a civilized discussion the other night for several hours. A lot of anger built up in her like a pressure cooker... so I let her vent. We both agreed our marriage sucks with the biggest problem being money issues and offered suggestions to fix it. So I picked up a part time job on weekends which started yesterday making good on what I told her. I asked her some key questions if she love me, do you want to stay together or do you want to divorce me? Yes, Yes and NO. Asked her if she wanted us to go see a MC but she declined citing the expense and a high failure rate with MC's? She wants to take the situation on a day by day basics now and not committing to a solution or plan to resolve issues.

 

 

She told our oldest (12) about the video tape incident when I was very discreet. Apparently he had observed HER emotional outbreak at her Mother's which she could have diffused easily but she didn't? Now he's making wise cracks about it? A couple days later found she was sneaking out of bed at night to sleep with one the kids? Guess she couldn't sleep with me in the same bed.... Guilt perhaps? She is very good at giving guilt trips but very BAD when she is on the receiving end.

 

Her stress level is unusually very high which is why I suspect Infidelity. She keeps picking fights with me but doesn't leave the house. It is "as if" she is using this as a defense strategy to avoid confrontation or discussing issues with me. Something is going on either physical or emotional? Last night at Easter dinner out, we were coming home when she picked a fight in the car. The sad part is I engaged her in the fight with our kids in the back seat... The kids were up late last night and did not want to go to school this morning. She slept with one of the kids all night. I saw it coming. I knew but..... she got my goat pulling my strings. I don't want to continue on this emotional roller coaster ride with her damaging the kids. They know something is wrong.

 

 

She keeps trying to put the ball in my court like I did something wrong bring fault. Most of the crap is minor trivial stuff. It seems she wants to resume SOS lifestyle in our declining marriage without addressing the problems with it! Or wants me to back down? I came to the conclusion that I CAN NOT LIVE LIKE THIS ANYMORE. We either have to work together and fix it or throw it out. She has indicated to me she does not want me to leave or us divorce? Also has given cop-out statements like "You Do What You Need To Do" meaning if you want a divorce, You File! Hummm.... Keep getting mixed messages from her and not sure what to believe? She's cooking inside Big-Time because she is so caught up in the BS lies she tells! Pretty much have have my anger under control except when I have a couple (TWO) Beers. This is what happened at Easter Dinner out except it was wine so I'm not drinking anymore.

 

 

Need a way to present an Ultimatum to her that this is not going to happen anymore! Either we go to a MC and/or work on our relationship or end it! I want her to come up to table halfway and meet me. Can't live like this anymore.

[Owl]

OK, so have you started doing ANY of the things I'd suggested to help you figure out what is going on?? Seriously, I can't imagine very many people at all that you wouldn't catch by taking the steps I'd recommended. But that's up to you.

 

So have you ASKED her why she keeps going and sleeping with the kids? You need to do something, I agree. But dropping an ultimatum when you really don't know wnat's going on, just the symptoms of it, is risky at best.

 

She's NOT going to admit to whatever it is...she's demonstrated that. So you're going to have to get proof in order to move on in trying to fix it.

 

Good luck.

[whichwayisup]

I agree with Owl and I have to add she is NOT going to be the one to end it and walk away. She ain't gonna file, she's not going to do anything except continue doing what it is she is doing.

 

I feel bad for you because you don't deserve this s***ty treatment. You deserve the honesty and respect from her, for her to TELL you WTF is really going on inside of her.

 

She will not play the bad guy here, maybe there is more to that. I don't just wanna throw it out here, maybe I'll PM you after my supper.

 

Hang in there.

[NiceGuyMojo]

Originally posted by Owl

OK, so have you started doing ANY of the things I'd suggested to help you figure out what is going on?? Seriously, I can't imagine very many people at all that you wouldn't catch by taking the steps I'd recommended. But that's up to you.

 

So have you ASKED her why she keeps going and sleeping with the kids? You need to do something, I agree. But dropping an ultimatum when you really don't know wnat's going on, just the symptoms of it, is risky at best.

 

She's NOT going to admit to whatever it is...she's demonstrated that. So you're going to have to get proof in order to move on in trying to fix it.

 

Good luck.

 

My Eyes are NOT shut Owl and continue to probe gently behind the scenes. I blew the Cardinal Rule by letting her know I suspect asking her flat out. Deny, Deny, Deny and Lie, Lie, Lie is a cheater's motto. She's going to be MORE careful from Now on! I read what you wrote Qwl. Her cell has over 125 numbers that are work related and frequently receives calls off hours as part of her job. Difficult to track. She doesn't use the computer much at home either.

 

Not going to follow her around like a puppy dog either but like you said I need proof. My goal is based on known facts and the root of the issues in our marriage which Infidility is more a sympton of the problem but a serious issue! I want to catch her but is more difficult without professional help which I can not afford.

 

The ultimatum; is she "willing" to participate in fixing the marriage or end it with divorce. Right now doesn't seem so. "Go or get off the pot" She is in the denial/avoidance stage and not about to admit squat at this point. The tape still hangs in the shadows in her mind of uncertainty though.

[NiceGuyMojo]

Originally posted by whichwayisup

I agree with Owl and I have to add she is NOT going to be the one to end it and walk away. She ain't gonna file, she's not going to do anything except continue doing what it is she is doing.

 

I feel bad for you because you don't deserve this s***ty treatment. You deserve the honesty and respect from her, for her to TELL you WTF is really going on inside of her.

 

She will not play the bad guy here, maybe there is more to that. I don't just wanna throw it out here, maybe I'll PM you after my supper.

 

Hang in there.

 

Looks that way. That's why I want to cut to the chase and not waste anymore time. If she is having an affair, it will quickly derail and crash because the secrecy is GONE which fuels the passion. Now all she has is relationship based on lies and distrust. She will die with it in her grave before she tells.

[invincible summer]

"I want to catch her but is more difficult without professional help which I can not afford."- Do you have a friend that could spare some time? You'd be surprized how many people will do it just to catch a cheater.

[whichwayisup]

Looks that way. That's why I want to cut to the chase and not waste anymore time. If she is having an affair, it will quickly derail and crash because the secrecy is GONE which fuels the passion. Now all she has is relationship based on lies and distrust. She will die with it in her grave before she tells.

 

You are right, she knows you are aware and eventually she will slip up. Time will tell though won't it.

 

Do you have a friend that could spare some time? You'd be surprized how many people will do it just to catch a cheater.

 

That is an excellent idea and worth looking into.

 

I should have PM'd you my other thought earlier as right now I've totally forgotten (Sorry) what it was I was going to tell you.

[NiceGuyMojo]

It's been pretty interesting since the last post. Now she's talking about canceling ISP service/land line phone, getting me a cell with GPS to save money. (son told me about the cell phone today, he,heh) She just spent $55 to get her haircut yesterday and spent $45 on dinner out last night together. On a positive note both kids have been home every night this past week! So we're broke trying pay our bills, trying to save money? I'm doing everything in my power to fix the money issues but she still continues to spend... I believe this is more about control than money. Yes, she makes more than me. She feels it's more important for me to work extra than celebrate her birthday with family? Told her NO WAY and wouldn't miss for the world! Keep getting mixed messages from her?

 

She thinks my calls to her at work are me checking up on her around 5PM? Sure... but each call is for a valid (normal H&W) reason. Thursday she worked late till 8:45 and NEVER called until after the FACT? The answering machine picked up the call and said she was working late w/reason and on her way home after she picks up the kids? When she got home she said I DID call and TELL YOU I was working late. Played the message she left and told her it was AFTER THE FACT not before! Yea... this was like throwing Gasoline on an open flame!

 

Our relationship has improved because I put my foot down and said this can't happen anymore! Not going to back down and THIS (positive things)) has to happen. Or we call it quits. Period, Bottom Line!

 

Seems I'm educating her on "How To" cover up or be more careful? Perhaps I should Shut-Up instead and observe collecting info. The Al edged tape still hangs over her head because she doesn't know for sure if it is Real or not? SHE keeps bringing it up in conversation when she claims to believe the tape does not exist? Hummm... She is hiding Something and Infidelity is First on my list.

 

 

She had saved all 28 of those nasty cell messages I left when she would not return my calls and listened to everyone while she left on vacation for one week. Her claim was out of the Coverage Area? Yes, I was pissed when my emotions were running wild but why did she save it and tell me she saved it? All the messages were conviently deleted which she probably knows about now. Seems she has a pre-planned agenda where she is five steps ahead to regain control over ME and the situation but SHE DOES NOT WANT to end the marriage. Maybe because of the Kids and/or a Mother's natural instinct to hold the Family together?

 

 

I've come to terms with my anger and the situation. I am focusing on ways to deal with it in a positive manner. Regardless of what happens, I'm prepared to deal with any possibility . She is reacting positive but NOT GIVING 100 Percent? Her idea is to see what happens tomorrow and take it Day By Day without a plan to resolve issues. I hope this is not a scam or cover up because I can't deal with anymore lies! I'm ready to cut the ropes if need be but want to give our marriage a fair chance.

[Sal Paradise]

If she is cheating (which she probably is) you'd think if she loved you the guilt would be eating at her and she'd tell you and try to save the marriage.

[jmargel]

I tell you what.. She has you suckered in big time. You are really way in deep with these head games. What did I tell you before? You don't seem to be listening to my advice or others. The only way to even start to chip away at any secrets of hers is by going to a MC. If guilt is such a big factor for her then when she is sitting with you & the MC and either of you ask her point out if she's cheating there is a good chance she will break down.

 

Your priorities right now seem to be set on finding out if she's cheating and not focused on what is wrong in the marriage. Give her the ultamatium and stick with it. She is counting on you to back down on it. And don't make up anymore stories such as the tape, because that is something she will bring up in MC as well. You are concerned she is lying to you, yet you do the same to her. There is no justification for it.

[Sal Paradise]

Originally posted by jmargel

I tell you what.. She has you suckered in big time. You are really way in deep with these head games. What did I tell you before? You don't seem to be listening to my advice or others. The only way to even start to chip away at any secrets of hers is by going to a MC. If guilt is such a big factor for her then when she is sitting with you & the MC and either of you ask her point out if she's cheating there is a good chance she will break down.

 

Your priorities right now seem to be set on finding out if she's cheating and not focused on what is wrong in the marriage. Give her the ultamatium and stick with it. She is counting on you to back down on it. And don't make up anymore stories such as the tape, because that is something she will bring up in MC as well. You are concerned she is lying to you, yet you do the same to her. There is no justification for it.

 

Good advice.

[NiceGuyMojo]

Originally posted by jmargel

The only way to even start to chip away at any secrets of hers is by going to a MC. If guilt is such a big factor for her then when she is sitting with you & the MC and either of you ask her point out if she's cheating there is a good chance she will break down.

 

 

 

jmargel,

 

She REFUSES to see a MC either separate or together. Any thoughts? I feel deep down she is hiding "something" that she does not want me know. Ever! The "guilt feeling" I sense from her seems to be eating away inside resurfacing every few days in intense emotional anger. She tries to control it but comes out like cooking a raw egg in a microwave oven. I go to give her a kiss or hug everyday and she backs up like I'm invading her space then realizes what she did when I ask her what's wrong? It seems she's searching for ANYTHING to argue about but can't say what's REALLY on her mind?

 

This happen last night on her Birthday also. We had celebrated her birthday this past weekend because we both had to work and everything was great. Last night after I refused to engage her in a pointless argument, then she began to talk for a few moments about her emotional needs not being met and I listened carefully... Then she stopped and said I'm tired and going to bed. She wanted some comforting and I gave it to her in a positive, loving way. Something is really cooking inside her and I don't have any idea how to address it except to try and meet her needs? Sex lately has been extremely very intense and long. She wants it. Haven't experienced this in years... Possibly one of the signs of infidelity? Yes, no or Maybe?

 

I realize now that I did some very bad things accusing her (without proof) which is coming back as "her fuel" for arguments. On a positive note it did bring the issues out in the open rather crudely but still effective. You're right jmargel, I need to address the real problems in our marriage not the symptoms of a marriage in trouble and resolve it together. "Lies will breed more lies" and "honesty breeds honesty" is what I've learned. We both are in agreement that our marriage is in The Pits and she Does Not want to divorce. I'm willing to fix it but she seems to be struggling inside with bringing issues to the table and her anger?

 

 

The other day she went off on rant about me calling her at work everyday around 4 or 5 saying I was calling to check up on her and her whereabouts asking her employees. Told her OK?.... (casual manner) I won't call you at work anymore.... Period and your employees volunteered the information. Simple enough to fix? Then, (rant) that's Not what I mean! You CAN call... (rant) You know what I mean! This is an example of her behavior. I was completely calm while she had her fit and said very little. Then, (I think) she realized that she was over reacting based on my response and became very frustrated. "People who have nothing to hide, Hide Nothing" Dr. Phil.

 

I have come to terms with my anger when she goes off (rants) on me and arrived at a solution to fix our marriage which I am 100 percent committed to do so. In the unlikely event it can't be fixed, I'm prepared for the worst. I started to layout some basic ground rules for US to follow.

 

1) No more fighting or arguing at ALL. It's affecting BOTH our children. We can discuss things like grown, mature adults without fighting and arguing or not at all. I will tell you when this starts to happen (as a warning) and not participate in the conversation if it continues in this manner. This CAN NOT happen any more. If you are stressed or angry, you will have to deal with that in another way. Not by taking it out on your children and me. How's that sound for starters?

 

2) Accountability to each other. If you are working late, please extend the common courtesy to me by picking up your phone to give me a call and I will do the same. No more after the fact telling me! You know in advance if you are not going to be home on-time or running late.

 

3) Our Children. We do things together either as a family or the two of us. No more dumping the kids off at the relatives. BOTH kids are to be home and in their bed at a reasonable hour EVERY night. No more coming home at 10 PM on a school night and them falling asleep by 11PM or later. No more will the kids be staying over for days at a time without coming home at your relatives because you were working late. I will pick them up and bring them home if necessary when you are working late or if you can not do so for any reason.

 

 

This is a sample of just a few and by no means complete. I can't control what she does or where she goes, only what I do. I can not stop infidelity but I CAN deter it from occurring. I feel she wants to shut me down but I'm not backing down and will hold my ground in a positive way. For the sake of her, our children and our marriage together.

[whichwayisup]

then she began to talk for a few moments about her emotional needs not being met and I listened carefully... Then she stopped and said I'm tired and going to bed. She wanted some comforting and I gave it to her in a positive, loving way. Something is really cooking inside her and I don't have any idea how to address it except to try and meet her needs? Sex lately has been extremely very intense and long. She wants it. Haven't experienced this in years... Possibly one of the signs of infidelity? Yes, no or Maybe?

 

Definately push this conversation further with her. She is telling you something and by her reactions, the moods and accusing you of checking up on her is a redflag. She has to cave eventually!

 

1) No more fighting or arguing at ALL. It's affecting BOTH our children. We can discuss things like grown, mature adults without fighting and arguing or not at all. I will tell you when this starts to happen (as a warning) and not participate in the conversation if it continues in this manner. This CAN NOT happen any more. If you are stressed or angry, you will have to deal with that in another way. Not by taking it out on your children and me. How's that sound for starters?

 

When she starts in and raises her voice, end the conversation. Walk away and tell her when you calm down and can be more civilized THEN we can talk. More productive that way.

 

You seem to be in a better frame of mind in dealing with this.

[jmargel]

You are on the right track. When she starts to rant tell her that "I don't wish to talk about this anymore right now, but we will later". If she snaps back just ignore it. This is letting her know you will come back to the issue when it's not as intense. As for the rules, you are correct. You need to set some ground rules that she will respect.

 

Having less or more sex could be a sign of infedility but not just in itself. IMO there are a combination of other signs that maybe contributing to this. She is pushing away because you are being too over-bearing. Let her come to you. Let her say "I love you" first. I had the same problem, as soon as I gave my wife some emotional space she was coming to me. I will feel awkward and totally against all your instincts but this is the best way to go about it. It may take a few days without exchaging I love you for her to realize. If she mentions why you haven't been saying it, tell her that you love & care for her so much that you are doing what she is asking. Do this in a non-scarastic voice, it has to be sincere.

 

What is her reason for not wanting to goto a MC? I believe you may benefit by going to one by yourself. This will not only open her eyes to the fact that something is really wrong but that once you go a few times she might be comfortable enough to join you. I've went by myself when my wife refused to. It helped alot, everytime I left that office it felt I left a ton of bricks behind. I was a great stress reliever. Good chance I might go back since what happened last night to me.

 

Anyway, hang in there. Be firm but encouraging.

[NiceGuyMojo]

She is pushing away because you are being too over-bearing. Let her come to you. Let her say "I love you" first. I had the same problem, as soon as I gave my wife some emotional space she was coming to me. I will feel awkward and totally against all your instincts but this is the best way to go about it. It may take a few days without exchanging I love you for her to realize. If she mentions why you haven't been saying it, tell her that you love & care for her so much that you are doing what she is asking. Do this in a non-scarastic voice, it has to be sincere.

 

 

 

jmargel,

 

It's working, but with mixed results? The closes hug or kiss was her asking my Daughter to give me a kiss from her and a two second scratch on the back before bed. A few nights ago after she put the kids to bed, she came in our room to go to sleep and I reached over to give her a hug and she went off! DON'T TOUCH ME!..... THANK YOU VERY MUCH PLEASE!!! I asked her to hand me the TV remote on her night table and she said it's not HERE! AND I'M NOT A LIAR either!!! (way out of context) Following night, same deal but was a little more nice about it which is not saying much.

 

We just had gotten back from the weekend retreat with her work which was a really great time and for the first time in a long time we enjoyed each other without fighting at all. Then something happened to her when we stopped for dinner on our way back? She grew quiet almost in a day dream like state. When were leaving and I accidently knocked her purse off her shoulder. The expression on her face was if looks could kill, you would be dead now! She was less touchy-feely with me not showing affection. Something is cooking inside her Big Time which leads me to think she could have been faking it the whole time on our trip? Remember she got really POed when I asked if I could go with her and I pushed the issue? She did not want me to go at all!

 

 

She doesn't want to talk about any issues in our marriage or see a MC. Don't know why? Wants to just stick her head in the sand and go back to the SOS routine as before! This didn't fly with me so I gave her an Ultimatum...We either Fix the Marriage or get Divorced because I Am NOT continuing to live in this manner anymore! We work on marriage together or we cut to the chase and it's over! I said her name and told her she was LOSING me! (shock) Her idea of"Seeing what happens tommorow" is not going to fix anything. You have to be pro active and WORK at it everyday to improve it! I don't think she likes that part because it means she has to communicate more now...

 

 

I kissed and hugged the Kids before they went off to school today but not her, I got a half a wave bye? She picked up on that right away.

 

 

jmargel, whatever it is, it's EATING her alive inside but can't find out what it is? Still convinced she is having an affair and someone is coaching her now to hide it better. Your advice is working and I feel I'm over doing it a bit now (which pushes her away) because my emotions start to get in the way of rational thinking. I really feel the need now for "Discovery" on her issues before we can move on. Just don't know how.... It's driving me crazy every single day and her too keeping it bottled up inside! Very rarely do people admit they are cheating and more so with women. They have to be caught in the act which could take Months or more. Don't want to go through this pain anymore. I need a plan of action to resolve it.