So many questions - is it over? Should I end it?

[Jrdinvt]

I also posted this on another site - but it seems like there is no traffic there. So please help me out folks. Wondering why I am having such a hard time ending my relationship with my wife.

 

So - background: I am 38, and my wife is 39. We both were never married before, and we have been married for 10 years. We have two children (5 and 8).

 

My parents are still alive and married, while her mother and fathers split up many years ago, both of them remarried (he two times), and he has since passed on. Her mother is still married and happy.

 

The basic issues are:

I am a senior level executive and work sometimes as early as 7am (when I leave the house) and as late as 9pm (when I get home). This happens 2-3 times per week. Other days I leave at 8am (sometimes with one child to drop at school) and arrive home just after 5pm, but sometime am able to work from home and pick up the children. It's a juggle, but I tend to get online for work after people are asleep so I do not upset anyone.

 

I worked through my graduate degree when we had our fist child and it was hard. We both agreed on it, and how we would get it done, but my wife grew to resent the time away (2 classroom nights until 9pm) per week, rest was via online). She dropped out of college, and has serious regrets about it.

 

I had owned my own house before we met, and she moved in. She felt we needed a larger house, so we did buy one. We still own our other one (rented) so finances are not as good as they perhaps could be.

 

Last year during fall (she has depression, anxiety, and panic disorder) she became very upset with her choice of life, and decided she was "done" with me (and all her choices). She moved in with her mom, and we split time in the house. It was odd - but I felt better. The children didn't do all that well with it, as expected, and I feel we both tried I make it as easy as we could on them.

 

Then one day she decided it was time to move back in (2 months? after). Into the spare room and then back "with" me.

 

Now a year later we are in the same boat and she's ready to go again. She has started seeing a individual councilor (as we also go to marriage therapy bi-weekly - which was one way I decided we could work to fix what ever was broken last time).

 

She talks about future, and I if ask about it she backs way off. She has slept in the spare room for months now. She ended up going on many solo trips with her girl buddies (the kind where you fly away for a week), and she sat me down to tell me that they all ended up at a strip club where she messed around with a female stripper. The guilt killed her and she came to me crying and telling me she was worried about STI's and whatnot. She was checked out and was fine. I really bothered me, but I let it go. (Maybe because it was not a guy -weird double standard).

 

Then back to the same old stuff. In the spare room (still does not want to me close to me because now she is protecting me just incase she has something).

 

Things I have done that bother her:

I used to look at porn. I have a great little pantyhose fetish where I like to have her wear them - but she hates them and hates that about me. The porn was mostly because she and I were not physical with each other - it started to fill the gap. She took as if she was not good enough. So I stopped with the porn. I made it a point to tell her she was good enough and very pretty (which she is - and I thought I did anyway) but that hangs over my head.

 

I work hard and concentrate on work when I am the office - so random calls about what her friend said to her other friend may go unanswered for a bit). Sometimes I problem solve work issues mentally when at home and appear distracted.

 

She tends to put me down often - like I can't do many things right. I just tend to roll with that.

She feels like my family does not like her so when they come over she will often stay out of site. Really awkward.

She always wants me around, but when I am around it seems like she does not care - that's really confusing to me.

 

That should get us started. My main question is what in the heck am I doing staying? I know I will take a hit in the wallet if I move on, but I don't really care. I just want us all to be happy - together or apart. I somehow have a hard time moving in any direction because I am hopeful of change and I don't want to let anyone down / have a failed marriage.

 

The kids are great - and I know we will get through all this no matter what way it goes.

[Mr. Lucky]

She has started seeing a individual councilor (as we also go to marriage therapy bi-weekly - which was one way I decided we could work to fix what ever was broken last time).

 

Rather than get our feedback (which will be all over the board), what kind of progress have your made in MC? How long have you been going? What has your therapist asked of you individually and as a couple?

 

Mr. Lucky

[Jrdinvt]

Great question, Mr Lucky!

 

I called the mc and set up our first session about 1.5 years ago. She's a licensed independent mental health clinician.

 

Major suggestions for us:

Fake it until you make it

Date nights

Taking time to meet and greet as we arrive and depart.

Get the kids to bed earlier so we have some time to ourselves.

If seperation is the decision - make a plan. (Current plan is seperate together in the same house - we have room.). So she's bed shopping currently.

 

Suggestions for me:

Make some time for myself. (Do something fun for myself)

Delegate earlier and later meetings to others if possible.

 

 

Suggestions for her:

Live in the moment more.

Let the past be the past - let go.

See a person 1:1 for anxiety and depression. ( she has once, and is looking to continue.)

Exercise - speak with GP about current meds.

 

 

 

 

 

Those are some key points.

[Jrdinvt]

I left out my biggest "ah-ha" moment with the MC in a private session. I spoke about trying to make her happy with this or that, and she stopped me and asked me, "Why do you think its your job to make her happy?"

 

I just stopped and thought. I thought of "for better or worse" "sickness and in health", but what if I couldn't because she was so unhappy with herself.

 

Really got me thinking.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Jrdinvt

[Mr. Lucky]

I left out my biggest "ah-ha" moment with the MC in a private session. I spoke about trying to make her happy with this or that, and she stopped me and asked me, "Why do you think its your job to make her happy?"

 

I just stopped and thought. I thought of "for better or worse" "sickness and in health", but what if I couldn't because she was so unhappy with herself.

 

Really got me thinking.

Certainly true. And your job would be even bigger - trying to make someone happy that may be determined to be unhappy.

 

Some things in your post make me think that, while you understand this point, you still haven't totally bought into it...

 

Mr. Lucky

[tobrieornottobrie]

Have you considered trying a different marriage counselor? Is your wife open to maybe increasing your marriage counseling sessions? Are either of you seeing a counselor individually? Best of luck to you during this difficult situation.

 

~ the brie's knees cheese ~

[Downtown]

Suggestions for her: Live in the moment more.

Let the past be the past - let go. See a person 1:1 for anxiety and depression.

Junior, you seem to be describing a woman who has been reasonably stable for ten years and has simply fallen out of love with you. I nonetheless am concerned about the verbal abuse and the therapist's comments about her having anxiety, depression, and difficulty living in the present. All of these behaviors are red flags -- albeit, only mild red flags -- for having moderate to strong traits of a personality disorder. Hence, although it is unlikely your W is exhibiting strong PD traits, it may be worth a few minutes of your time to see if most of the red flags I list at 18 Warning Signs sound very familiar. If most of them do, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, Junior.

[Jrdinvt]

18 Warning Signs sound very familiar. If most of them do, I would be glad to discuss them with you. Take care, Junior.

 

I'd give her 15 out of the 18. I suspected this dx a bit ago after reading about it, but I am not qualified to make that judgement. Wow.

[Jrdinvt]

Certainly true. And your job would be even bigger - trying to make someone happy that may be determined to be unhappy.

 

Some things in your post make me think that, while you understand this point, you still haven't totally bought into it...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Not really bought into it - and I think it's out of the fear of failure. Asmitting to myself I choose the wrong one, and now I need to face that. Albeit, I have two amazing children!

[Jrdinvt]

Have you considered trying a different marriage counselor? Is your wife open to maybe increasing your marriage counseling sessions? Are either of you seeing a counselor individually? Best of luck to you during this difficult situation.

 

~ the brie's knees cheese ~

 

We go weekly now. Not sure I could increase it with life and work getting in the way. I don't see anyone 1:1, but the idea has crossed my mind. I truly need more guidance in this area. It's very hard on me, and I tend to internalize all of it.

[Downtown]

I'd give her 15 out of the 18. I suspected this dx a bit ago after reading about it, but I am not qualified to make that judgement. Wow.

Junior, I am not suggesting you try to diagnose your W. Only a professional can determine whether her BPD traits are so strong as to meet 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full blown BPD. Rather, I am simply suggesting that you learn how to spot the warning signs. Doing so is not difficult once you know what signs to look for because there is nothing subtle about traits such as frequent verbal abuse, always blaming you for every misfortune, and the inability to control her own emotions.

 

Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when and if they occur.

 

I caution that every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means everyone has it to some degree. At issue, then, is not whether your W has BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. Rather, at issue is whether she exhibited those traits at a strong and persistent level over your 10 year marriage.

 

Because most signs in my list sounded familiar to you, I suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my post in Rebel's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and the kids are dealing with. I also would suggest you read Stopping Walking on Eggshells, which is the best selling BPD book targeted to the abused spouses of BPDers. Junior, I also would be glad to suggest some excellent online resources that are available at no cost.

[Jrdinvt]

Thanks! I have heard of that book and considered reading it.

 

Tonight she told me she was going to a lawyer. Guess I one answer to my question. What followed was a great deal of information around how bad I am putting work first always. I need to put God first l, then my wife, then my kids. Suddenly she is extremely religious. I am super ok with her being that way now - but she does not put me before the kids - just saying.

 

I do work hard. I do. I do it for the debt we have - the homes - the cars - etc. I am sure it's an ego thing for me too - but someone HAS to make the money - and I am the one with the degrees. :-(. It's not like I am not home and not spending time with the kids - so I am having a hard time figuring it all out.

 

Well well well - looks like my life is about to get much more complicated.

[Downtown]

Junior, after you've read my post in Rebel's thread, it would be helpful for us to know which of the 3 warning signs in my list you do not find characteristic of your W's behavior. By the way, I note that one of the first skills that is typically taught to a BPDer in individual therapy is "mindfulness," i.e., how to remain in the present moment instead of escaping into the past or future. BPDers tend to live in the past (because they feel so much shame carried from early childhood) and in the future (because they are so fearful of abandonment). This is one reason I was concerned when you mentioned that her therapist is encouraging her to be mindful and stay in the present.

[Jrdinvt]

Uh oh Downtown. I am terrified after reading all of rebel's post. My W's mom and dad split up when she was 3-4.

 

To your question:

 

temper tantrums, (yes)

emotional abuse, (yes)

push-away and pull-back behavior, (yes - sometimes in the same day)

black-white thinking, (yes - always)

immaturity, (yes - and loves drama)

controlling behavior (yes - in a non-straight forward way)

Edited October 16, 2014 by Jrdinvt
Added text.

[jakrbbt]

You can follow my threads Jr, but let me tell you in a nutshell that I have begun to internalize the hard lesson that as it turns out, the "why" of your partner's behavior only matters to a certain extent. You can explore her motives. But the more juicy those "Aha" moments with her feel to you, the less control you probably have over your own life choices and future.

 

I say that, but for many of us, the moments wherein we further "figure out" our spouses do feel pretty good.

 

Those moments are fool's gold.

 

I'd suggest individual counseling so that you can figure out how to truly take care of yourself and your children, live your life and be fulfilled regardless of how your wife is. That's hard. I did individual counseling, even did it with that very aim, and it still took a hellish half-year to start practicing self-care. In my case, the story unfolded into divorce. Your case may not be that way. But the similarity is that I see you describing another person very much and yourself very little-- if your post were a play, the "OP" character would be kind of wooden, sitting there while crazy stuff all happened to him. Learn how it is that you participate in your present, and by extension, how you can participate in your future.

 

I'm not at all saying you do anything wrong or bad, this isn't a "take responsibility for your contribution" kind of post. Instead, I'm saying that you may be far more powerful in securing your own health and happiness, than you appear to think you are. You should be. You have a responsibility to be.

 

I don't have anything too much more specific than that, I'm afraid, but I recognized the horrible limbo in your posts and wanted to offer a "hello there, I'm right up the same road a ways, here's what milestone I've passed."

Edited October 16, 2014 by jakrbbt

[Downtown]

The "why" of your partner's behavior only matters to a certain extent. You can explore her motives. But the more juicy those "Aha" moments with her feel to you, the less control you probably have over your own life choices and future.... Those moments are fool's gold.

Jakrbbt, your suggestion -- that Junior should stop trying to understand his W's behavior -- would be excellent advice for most people leaving a relationship that is both verbally and physically abusive. Most people have reasonably strong personal boundaries and no children -- and thus are capable of walking away from such toxic relationships without looking back. However, for a man remaining in that toxic relationship for ten years -- and having two young children who cannot escape for another ten years -- it is VERY IMPORTANT for him to understand his W's behavior.

 

One reason, of course, is that he must learn whether his two children are being raised by a BPDer (i.e., a person with strong BPD traits). This is important because this disorder is believe to be transmitted from one generation to another by both genetics and the environment in which the child is raised.

 

A second reason is the high likelihood that any man willingly tolerating such abuse for ten years has strong codependency traits. This means that Junior likely has (as I do) weak personal boundaries -- i.e., he is so empathetic that it is difficult for him to see where his own problems stop and those of his W begin. This unhealthy "enmeshment" with his W makes it difficult for him to see his contribution to the toxicity without first understanding and subtracting out the contribution made by his W. Absent that understanding, he will continue to misperceive his role as "just trying to help" instead of seeing himself as the enabler he has been for 10 years (and that I was for 15 years).

 

A third reasonis that, if Junior is codependent like me, he is a caregiver to a fault. Our problem is not wanting to help others. Rather, it is our willingness to keep helping even when it is to our great detriment to do so. Hence, the notion of walking away from a sick loved one is anathema to us. That idea runs against our family values, our religion, our sense of goodness -- indeed, it is against every fiber of our being. There is no way we will abandon a sick loved one. Yet, if you can explain to us how we are not really helping -- and explain that we are, in fact, harming the loved one with our enabling behavior -- you can free us of the guilt and sense of obligation that keeps us mired in the toxic relationship.

Fourth, when our partners have strong BPD traits, we excessive caregivers find that such relationships are highly addictive. This is so because the hateful, spiteful periods are intermixed with wonderful, ecstatic periods, during which we are adored and regarded as white knights who can fix anything (i.e., a codependent's notion of heaven). This bouncing back and forth between enraptured highs and painful withdrawals is very similar to the behavior of people addicted to heroine, alcohol, and gambling. Hence, telling us to "simply walk away" is as useful as telling a drunk to simply toss his bottle away.

 

Fifth, in the unlikely event that we codependents would walk away from a BPDer, there is a good chance we will throw ourselves into the arms of another person just like her if we do not take the time to learn the red flags we should look out for. Because we are caregivers to a fault, we are strongly attracted to anyone projecting a strong sense of vulnerability. For us, it is as attractive as catnip is to cats. And BPDers, forever thinking of themselves as victims, are masters at projecting vulnerability. I have a friend, for example, who is now dating the third woman (in a row) who exhibits emotional instability and other strong BPD traits.

 

These five considerations imply that it can be extremely difficult to persuade a codependent person to stay away from a toxic relationship. And this is especially true when his partner has strong BPD traits. Hence, the very first thing I encourage an abused person like Junior to do is to read about BPD traits so he can determine whether he is seeing most warning signs occurring at a strong and persistent level. If so, I encourage him to see HIS OWN psychologist -- not his W's therapist -- so he can obtain a candid professional opinion on what he and the children have been dealing with.

 

This effort to understand his W -- contrary to your belief that it gives him "less control" over his own life choices -- should give him several important insights: (a) the partner's dysfunctional behavior likely originated in childhood and thus is far beyond his ability to fix, (b) his efforts to comfort and calm her are counter-productive because they prevent her from facing her issues and learning how to control them, and © his "enabling" behavior harms her by allowing her to continue acting like a child and without suffering the logical consequences.

 

Once an excessive caregiver realizes that he is harming his sick loved one, he is freed from the feelings of obligation and guilt that were tying him to the toxic relationship. And, at that point, he likely will be receptive to the idea that his futile efforts to help her -- i.e., to do the impossible -- were actually strong signs of his own codependent traits, which he must work on to avoid repeating the same mistakes.

 

I'm not at all saying you do anything wrong or bad, this isn't a "take responsibility for your contribution" kind of post.

Again, we disagree. I believe that, if Junior's W really is a BPDer, he has been doing something wrong for ten years. Finding out what it is will be a good thing because it will be empowering. When you are stuck in a toxic marriage, finding out what you can do to improve your situation gives you the power to stop the pain.

 

Importantly, if Junior has been living in a toxic marriage for ten years, the toxicity is not something SHE is doing to him. Rather, it is something BOTH PARTIES are doing to each other. Of course, her contributions to the toxicity -- e.g., verbal abuse, blame-shifting, and temper tantrums -- are easy for Junior to see. His contribution, however, will be much harder to see because -- after all -- he has only been "trying to help" for ten years.

 

Yet, if she has strong BPD traits as he suspects, he fails to realize that his mere presence in the home serves to frequently trigger her two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. He also fails to recognize that, by rushing in to sooth her whenever she is upset, he is destroying her opportunities to learn how to do self soothing -- a skill the rest of us learned in childhood. And he fails to see that, by always protecting her from the logical consequences of her own bad choices, he discourages her from confronting her own issues and learning how to manage them.

[Jrdinvt]

Well - I get it. This makes sense. Pretty freaking scary. I knew this about myself - and I understand the more I try to help the more I enable her to stay the same. At the same point everything makes me want to to her.

 

So here's a little tid bit. Today I came home and she made me dinner. w-t-f. This sounds classic to what you have been describing, Downtown.

[Downtown]

This sounds classic to what you have been describing, Downtown.

JRD, because you believe that most of the BPD warning signs have been occurring throughout your marriage, I have some more specific suggestions:

 

As an initial matter, I recommend that you NOT tell your W about your suspicions. If she actually is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

 

Second, if you think you may stay with her a while, I again suggest you read Stop Walking on Eggshells, the best-selling BPD book targeted to abused spouses like you. Or, if you decide to get a divorce instead, I recommend Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Both books are written by the same author.

 

Third, I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the largest and most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. It offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the "Leaving" board and "Parenting after the Split" board.

 

Fourth, while you are at BPDfamily, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My favorite is article #9 at Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder.

 

Fifth, I again suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with -- and how likely it is she may pass it on to your two children. (My experience is that, when one parent has BPD, it is unlikely a child will develop strong BPD traits as long as he is getting strong support from the nonBPDer parent in shared custody.) As I've explained in other threads, your best chance of getting a candid opinion regarding a possible BPD diagnosis is to see a psychologist who has never seen your W and has no intention of treating her. In that way, you are assured that the psych is ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers. This means you should NOT take the BPDer along when consulting with your own psychologist. Therapists generally are loath to tell high functioning BPDers the name of their disorder (for the clients' own protection).

 

Finally, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers. Your story has already attracted nearly 450 views in just three days.

[Jrdinvt]

Thank you Downtown. Buying the book for my iPad.

 

Are you PsyD? Just curious. Good advice and youre passionate about it. Great stuff!

Edited October 17, 2014 by Jrdinvt

[Downtown]

No, JRD, I'm just an excessive caregiver like you. All I do is point abused partners to resources describing BPD warning signs so they can decide, for themselves, whether that is what they're seeing.

[Jrdinvt]

Well done, Downtown. I'll keep this thread updated as needed.

 

Best & thank you!

[Jrdinvt]

Well - I've learned a great deal about myself and out BPD. Still not sure if my wife (who claims we are seperated, but living in the same house has BPD, but it seems likely.

 

I have nearly finished the book, stop walking on eggshells, and I have also begun seeing a mental health councilor l help with clarity. I did hear from a PsyD not to place my wife in a diagnosis "bucket" as that's not always the best way to look at things. However, it is a bit hard as she lines up with nearly 100% of the traits.

 

She said she was going to a lawyer, but hasn't. I may just to cover my butt, but it's hard to spend money from a joint accout worhout notice.

[Downtown]

I did hear from a PsyD not to place my wife in a diagnosis "bucket" as that's not always the best way to look at things. However, it is a bit hard as she lines up with nearly 100% of the traits.

JRD, the PsyD probably is referring to the fact that, if your Ex has strong traits of a personality disorder, it is very unlikely she has only one. Recent research shows that the vast majority of people having a PD also have one or two others as well. The reason is that PDs are not separate diseases. Indeed, they are not diseases at all. Instead, they are simply groups of behavioral traits that tend to be seen occurring together and, at strong levels, become dysfunctional.

 

Because the psychiatric community created too many of these PD categories back in 1980, the categories contain traits that often overlap. The result is that, although a disordered person has only ONE personality, he likely will exhibit strong traits of two or three personality disorders. Hence, if your W actually has strong traits of a PD, she likely exhibits some strong traits of one or two others as well. This is not to say, however, that she cannot have a set of traits, such as BPD traits, that are predominant.

[beach]

Jrdinvt;5948546]I left out my biggest "ah-ha" moment with the MC in a private session. I spoke about trying to make her happy with this or that, and she stopped me and asked me, "Why do you think its your job to make her happy?"

 

I just stopped and thought. I thought of "for better or worse" "sickness and in health", but what if I couldn't because she was so unhappy with herself.

 

 

It is hers to address, not yours.

 

And until she does that work on herself you should expect to live with an unhappy wife.

 

Or not.

[Jrdinvt]

She's seeing a social worker now - but it's going to be a long hall. I am STILL with her - though we are "seperated" in the same house.

 

It's rough folks. The books are helping. Helping me learn a great deal about me as a caregiver, fixer, helper, etc.