What do the majority 'really' believe?

[wed4ever]

Recently I created a thread of a religious nature. What struck me is how many atheists/agnostics responded. I've noticed this often here in LS. I wouldn't expect the ratio to be 50/50 (seemingly) in a religious neutral forum. According to surveys, atheists are a small minority. So it makes me wonder if there are a lot of people out there who do not openly claim their skepticism about god and religion.

 

I'm one of them. I was a christian for decades but made a slow transition to becoming an agnostic over the last 4 years. I'm still working on it.

 

Besides my wife and brother, the rest of my family really doesn't know. They probably get the hint but it's not like I care to hop on a bandwagon and try to change everyone to think like I do. I had my fill of that with church enough in the past. I'd rather keep the peace for now. Plus, I'm still a work in progress in my beliefs.

 

My point is, do you think there is a large # of people who actually don't believe in religion and never say anything about it?

Edited October 19, 2014 by wed4ever

[M30USA]

It doesn't matter what you call yourself: atheist, agnostic, Christian...

 

Jesus said his true followers are in the minority, even among self-proclaimed Christians. Focus more on TRUTH than labels. Labels are for cans of soup.

[Ronni_W]

My point is, do you think there is a large # of people who actually don't believe in religion and never say anything about it?

I do, yes. After all, "don't talk about politics or religion", yes? I also think that, for many thinking/intelligent people, the dogma of most of the main religious traditions just leaves something to be desired; as if there is something "missing" or incomplete or somehow just out of reach. Obviously "faith" or "blind faith" fills that gap for others.

 

I've recently been reading material from the Ascended Masters. It lends a bit more logic/sense to what I was taught in my Christian/Roman Catholic-based formative years.

 

Best of luck in your searching for Truth...whatever it may turn out to be

[M30USA]

I also think that, for many thinking/intelligent people, the dogma of most of the main religious traditions just leaves something to be desired; as if there is something "missing" or incomplete or somehow just out of reach.[/Quote]

 

It's called the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that it will "teach you all things". Problem is...humans are born with no desire for the truth so most reject it.

 

Obviously "faith" or "blind faith" fills that gap for others.

 

Read what the philosopher, St. Augustine, had to say on the subject of faith and its relationship to empiracism.

[pie2]

My point is, do you think there is a large # of people who actually don't believe in religion and never say anything about it?

 

A large number, yes. But a large percentage of the population, no.

 

People who post on LS are a special group of people, mostly from middle to upper class of the Western world. Certainly not the norm of the entire world. I think most of the world's population has some sort of religious/spiritual faith.

 

Regarding the implied superiority of keeping silent about spiritual beliefs, I don't think most atheists keep quiet for noble reasons. I think it's mainly just not a topic that enters into their daily thought life (for the most part...there are fanatics on all sides), so they naturally don't discuss it.

 

It's called the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that it will "teach you all things". Problem is...humans are born with no desire for the truth so most reject it.

 

I must disagree. I think we're all born with a desire to seek truth. It just usually gets drowned out by desires and pleasures of what makes us happy. Without that desire that God has put on our hearts, we'd never search for God's truth.

Edited October 20, 2014 by pie2

[M30USA]

I must disagree. I think we're all born with a desire to seek truth. It just usually gets drowned out by desires and pleasures of what makes us happy. Without that desire that God has put on our hearts, we'd never search for God's truth.

 

This is an important topic. There are only 2 options:

 

1) We are born with a natural inclination to seek truth, but get mixed in with secondary error and get set off course (from our natural inclination to seek truth).

 

2) We are born with no desire for God, no desire for truth. Then God, in his mercy, reveals himself to us and, as a result, we begin to seek him (by his continual sustaining against our natural desire).

 

Anyone wanna take a stab? Scripture verses are encouraged.

Edited October 20, 2014 by M30USA

[pie2]

This is an important topic. There are only 2 options:

 

1) We are born with a natural inclination to seek truth, but get mixed in with secondary error and get set off course (from our natural inclination to seek truth).

 

Anyone wanna take a stab? Scripture verses are encouraged.

 

Psalm 40:8 "I desire to do your will, my God; your law is within my heart.”

 

Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.”

 

Jeremiah 31:33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel

after that time,” declares the Lord. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

 

 

God has written his law into our hearts, and given us free access to seek God's truth. I don't think God necessarily MUST reveal himself first, and then we seek. Some of us have a natural inclination to want to know more as God has embedded what I think of as a receptor into each heart, which has and does receives God's love. With that receptor, we're able to detect God's message to us, and there is a deep-seated desire in our soul to connect with God. But we can make the choice to seek out God or not.

 

imo

 

And I know you're Calvinistic, and won't agree with me, yeah?

 

Anyway, you know all about the sinful nature overtaking the spiritual nature of man. I won't look for more bible verses for that.

 

Ok, so bring on the verses! How does the bible say the above is not correct?

 

:)

[M30USA]

I'm actually a Calvinist AND Arminianist. How's that for a mind bender? The Bible clearly supports both even though they are logical contradictions.

 

I'll get to my verses a bit later when I have time.

[wed4ever]

Almost all the verses you're going to come up with are not specifically talking about an individual. They are talking about Israel and the new covenant church. But I suppose what is true for a group could also be true for an individual.

 

I don't see what any of that has to do with the OP. It was a question if atheists feel discriminated against or not.

[M30USA]

I think the main issue here is what the PRIMARY or INITIAL factor is. Your verses are absolutely true, but they aren't the primary or initial state of the person (in this case the Psalmist, David). David, himself, said in Psalm 51 that "in sin did my mother conceive me". This suggests his primary state is sin. The anomaly to this primary state is his desire to seek God--which, by the way, did not originate within himself but was a gift from God, without which, he would continue back to his primary state (sin and ignorance). This is crucial to settle because, otherwise, man can take credit for his own righteousness or desire to seek God. And we know that is not the case. God gets all the glory. There is nothing good in man, apart from what God has regenerated within him.

 

Remember this verse?

 

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

there is no one who understands;

there is no one who seeks God." (Romans 3)

 

Ultimately everything has to originate from God. Philosophers call this a "first efficient cause". If we do have any desire to seek God, it's not our primary state. It comes later. And even then, it must be maintained by the grace of God, contrary to and in spite of our natural inclination.

Edited October 21, 2014 by M30USA

[pie2]

I don't see what any of that has to do with the OP. It was a question if atheists feel discriminated against or not.

 

The OP was this:

 

My point is, do you think there is a large # of people who actually don't believe in religion and never say anything about it?

 

Hence, the discussion relates to people, and what their belief systems are, or more specifically, how those belief systems might originate. What are the mechanisms us humans have to work with in order to believe (or not)?

 

We're discussing the root of the matter, imo: Are there people out there who have absolutely no desire to know God, and actually make of the majority? Or, do people have at least some small inclination to wonder about the supernatural.

 

At least that was my understanding .

 

I think the main issue here is what the PRIMARY or INITIAL factor is. Your verses are absolutely true, but they aren't the primary or initial state of the person (in this case the Psalmist, David). David, himself, said in Psalm 51 that "in sin did my mother conceive me". This suggests his primary state is sin. The anomaly to this primary state is his desire to seek God--which, by the way, did not originate within himself but was a gift from God, without which, he would continue back to his primary state (sin and ignorance). This is crucial to settle because, otherwise, man can take credit for his own righteousness or desire to seek God. And we know that is not the case. God gets all the glory. There is nothing good in man, apart from what God has regenerated within him.

 

Remember this verse?

 

“There is no one righteous, not even one;

there is no one who understands;

there is no one who seeks God." (Romans 3)

 

Ultimately everything has to originate from God. Philosophers call this a "first efficient cause". If we do have any desire to seek God, it's not our primary state. It comes later. And even then, it must be maintained by the grace of God, contrary to and in spite of our natural inclination.

 

God doesn't say when he wrote the law on our hearts. I think it's a technicality to say that God gave us the ability to know his laws so therefore he's guiding our actions. God gave me the ability to walk, but I choose to use that ability. Of course God gave me the ability, and it DOES originate from Him. But I choose to employ it or not.

 

But God says that the law is written in everyone's heart. Not that God will only pick a few people to reveal himself to. Anyone who wants to seek, can find.

 

We could go on and on.

 

We need TFW to post a video...he knows all the good ones that would explain this whole thread!

[M30USA]

The verse about God posting the law in our hearts is a prophecy pertaining to the New Testament. Which means at some point prior we didnt have the law in our hearts. Actually there was a time when we didnt even have the law at all--even outside of our hearts. This was during the days before Moses. So whether you look at humans as individuals, or the human lineage from beginning to end, sin and ignorance is the primary state and obedience and knowledge is what comes later, merely by God's grace and not our own doing.

Edited October 21, 2014 by M30USA

[pie2]

According to Paul, God has been known since the beginning of time:

 

Romans 1:20-25

 

"For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

 

 

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen."

[M30USA]

Pie, which of the following do you believe?

 

1) People are born evil.

2) People are born good.

3) Somewhere in between.

 

The Bible makes it clear that number 1 is true. It's been a fundamental tenant of basic Christianity for centuries. In fact, if number 1 is NOT true (even if number 3 is true), then Christ died for no reason.

[pie2]

Pie, which of the following do you believe?

 

1) People are born evil.

2) People are born good.

3) Somewhere in between.

 

The Bible makes it clear that number 1 is true. It's been a fundamental tenant of basic Christianity for centuries. In fact, if number 1 is NOT true (even if number 3 is true), then Christ died for no reason.

 

 

I believe people are born with a sinful nature (number one), but ALSO have a desire to know God. I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive. Just because we have a desire to know God, doesn't mean we're holy beings. It just means we want to meet our Maker, imo.

 

I don't see how wanting to know God (aka Truth) equates us having the cleansing power to erase sin. We still need Jesus, and his sacrifice, without a doubt.

[M30USA]

Another question:

 

As it stands, by default, are humans on the road to heaven or hell? Paul tells us that, if we reject Christ, we "remain" condemned. This implies condemnation is the status quo for humans. It's not a decision we make at some point. We already ARE condemned at birth.

 

I finally understand your position, at least. You believe we are both born in sin AND born wanting to seek God. But sin implies a blindness towards God and refusal to seek him.

[Ronni_W]

My point is, do you think there is a large # of people who actually don't believe in religion and never say anything about it?

I don't see what any of that has to do with the OP. It was a question if atheists feel discriminated against or not.

Sorry...I didn't get your second question from your OP . But yes...I do think that atheists may well not express, or be reluctant to express, their spiritual/religious position for fear of the judgment and "teaching" and "preaching" that all-too-often follows.

[serial muse]

Recently I created a thread of a religious nature. What struck me is how many atheists/agnostics responded. I've noticed this often here in LS. I wouldn't expect the ratio to be 50/50 (seemingly) in a religious neutral forum. According to surveys, atheists are a small minority. So it makes me wonder if there are a lot of people out there who do not openly claim their skepticism about god and religion.

 

I'm one of them. I was a christian for decades but made a slow transition to becoming an agnostic over the last 4 years. I'm still working on it.

 

Besides my wife and brother, the rest of my family really doesn't know. They probably get the hint but it's not like I care to hop on a bandwagon and try to change everyone to think like I do. I had my fill of that with church enough in the past. I'd rather keep the peace for now. Plus, I'm still a work in progress in my beliefs.

 

My point is, do you think there is a large # of people who actually don't believe in religion and never say anything about it?

 

It's an interesting question. I suspect there might be; particularly in the US, it seems rather stark to baldly state that one is an athiest. I would classify myself as agnostic, but that was a thing that took me some time to say out loud, even though I was long aware of it, in large part because my mother (who I adore) is religious and I didn't want to hurt her.

 

And I suspect a lot of people have those sorts of barriers. Religion is a very social thing, and it's kind of tribal in the sense that people tend to cluster together and shut others out who aren't of the same "tribe". I say that without rancor; I was raised Catholic and went to mass every weekend and sometimes more; there is a powerful sense of belonging in knowing all the rituals and the prayers and in an entire congregation reciting as one. Shared rituals are as old as the hills, and their impact is profound. It can be awe-inspiring and moving to participate in.

 

But it does throw up a lot of barriers (just check out that Muslim thread raging on). So if declaring one's beliefs means risking alienating family and friends...well, I can totally understand why that would be a hard thing to do. Easier, perhaps, just to pipe down and quietly think what you want.

Edited October 21, 2014 by serial muse

[M30USA]

For Pie2:

 

[beach]

It's called the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that it will "teach you all things". Problem is...humans are born with no desire for the truth so most reject it.

 

 

 

Read what the philosopher, St. Augustine, had to say on the subject of faith and its relationship to empiracism.

 

This is incorrect. Truth is different for every person.

 

My truth is mine. Your truth is yours. We can both be correct in having our own truth.

 

You keep quoting books - and that works for you. But for another person who only see those books you quote as writing - it's important to consider being authentic with each spoken and written word and actions as adding joy to living.

 

Not everyone believes in the bible and some of the greatest givers I've ever met don't believe it to be anything other than a regular book.

 

I look within. The heart and intent of any person is what I look at.

 

That childlike spirit is what I consider my higher power. Everyone has it when the are young. Some people lose track of what it looks like as they get older. Some regain it too - after losing their way.

[M30USA]

This is incorrect. Truth is different for every person.

 

My truth is mine. Your truth is yours. We can both be correct in having our own truth.

 

You keep quoting books - and that works for you. But for another person who only see those books you quote as writing - it's important to consider being authentic with each spoken and written word and actions as adding joy to living.

 

Not everyone believes in the bible and some of the greatest givers I've ever met don't believe it to be anything other than a regular book.

 

I look within. The heart and intent of any person is what I look at.

 

That childlike spirit is what I consider my higher power. Everyone has it when the are young. Some people lose track of what it looks like as they get older. Some regain it too - after losing their way.

 

So everyone's truth is different? Well, then, I believe dogs have 5 legs. That's my truth.

 

And it's quite ironic that, in your assertion that everyone has his own truth, you are claiming that my truth is false. This is a logical contradiction and shows why relativism is an impossibility. Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle all proved this very point that relativism/skepticism is an inherent contradiction. Your better stance, they say, is to take a position and see where it stands up on its own as true.

Edited October 21, 2014 by M30USA

[wed4ever]

Religion is a very social thing, and it's kind of tribal in the sense that people tend to cluster together and shut others out who aren't of the same "tribe".

 

A very good point. I agree.

[M30USA]

A very good point. I agree.

 

Truth should unify everybody. In this light, skin color and country and language should fall into the shadows. The Book of Revelation says that, among those who are servants of Christ, there will be members of every tribe, nation and language on earth.

[serial muse]

Hence, the discussion relates to people, and what their belief systems are, or more specifically, how those belief systems might originate. What are the mechanisms us humans have to work with in order to believe (or not)?

 

I thought the intended point of the thread was pretty clear from the OP. You guys are having an interesting discussion but it's also a threadjack...maybe start a new thread for that? The OP is interested in whether atheists/agnostics feel disenfranchised in any way, or like they can't own their beliefs. It's a social, not biblical, discussion.