Are you a feminist?

[lollipopspot]

Only arrest the 130 lb guy....let the 250 lb guy go or just shoot him??

 

Police officers are not doing hand to hand combat with criminals, and they are generally paired up so one has a weapon on the perpetrator.

 

Notice that a lot of officers are fat and out of shape, generally it's not that physical of a job.

[Taramere]

No I didn't and I can't be bothered to.

 

So you know of ONE issue, which is the most obvious i.e. men usually get shafted during divorce proceedings... and you've helped a guy out here and there - doesn't mean feminism as a movement has done anything to initiate that.

 

It does, if feminist theory encourages a person to focus on gender based stereotypes generally, the unfair impact they can have...and if it results in them being a better advocate for men who have issues surrounding getting contact with their children.

 

I helped a guy out once too - he was homeless and I gave him some money... wait... it was a homeless GUY. Did you ever notice that most homeless people are men?

 

Yes I have. Another thing I've noticed is that the people who like to point these gender differences out rarely seem very interested in taking action to address these situations. It seems to me that they'd rather spend their time complaining about how attention that successful awareness raising campaigns get for "female" causes, rather than trying to learn something from those awareness raising campaigns with the aim of using that learning to highlight causes they claim to care about. Possibly because anti-feminism is their cause, and there's not really any positive spin you can put on a cause like that - which is less about opening up opportunities for people and helping them to improve their lives as it is about trying to make life harder for the group you're "anti".

Edited October 30, 2014 by Taramere

[Woggle]

Taramere have you ever gotten any backlash from other women for helping men? When I worked for the chamber of commerce there was a woman involved who used to run a battered woman's shelter. One time she helped a man get out of town because his ex was trying to kill him and she was ostracized and considered a traitor by her peers for helping the enemy.

[camillalev]

I appreciate you caring about these issues but discuss them in some radical feminist circles and see what kind of reaction you get. Go on a blog like Jezebel and others and say these same things. See how they react to it.

 

Some of the articles I've read on jez have mentioned it, but it's definitely not their focal point. I have seen many women agree and chip in with their opinion or stories that align with this. As for comment sections.. The few extremists and die hards(who always seem to want to talk the loudest)from both sides will always have their piece to say. Most are not like them. I have seen women agree on balanced rights.

 

Below is a excerpt from one article:

 

"There are some really ****ty things about being a man. You are 100% right on that. You are held up to unreasonable expectations about your body and your career and your ability/desire to conform to traditional modes of masculinity (just like women are with traditional femininity), and that is absolutely oppressive. There are radical feminists and deeply wounded women and women who just don't have the patience for diplomacy anymore who absolutely hate you because of your gender. (However, for whatever it's worth, I do not personally know a single woman like that.) That is an unpleasant situation to be in—especially when you also feel like you're being blamed for the seemingly distant problems of people you've never met and towards whom you feel no particular animus.

 

 

Feminists do not want you to lose custody of your children. The assumption that women are naturally better caregivers is part of patriarchy.

 

Feminists do not like commercials in which bumbling dads mess up the laundry and competent wives have to bustle in and fix it. The assumption that women are naturally better housekeepers is part of patriarchy.

 

Feminists do not want you to have to make alimony payments. Alimony is set up to combat the fact that women have been historically expected to prioritize domestic duties over professional goals, thus minimizing their earning potential if their "traditional" marriages end. The assumption that wives should make babies instead of money is part of patriarchy.

 

Feminists do not want anyone to get raped in prison. Permissiveness and jokes about prison rape are part of rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.

 

Feminists do not want anyone to be falsely accused of rape. False rape accusations discredit rape victims, which reinforces rape culture, which is part of patriarchy.

 

Feminists do not want you to be viewed with suspicion when you take your child to the park (men frequently insist that this is a serious issue, so I will take them at their word). The assumption that men are insatiable sexual animals, combined with the idea that it's unnatural for men to care for children, is part of patriarchy."

 

 

 

I will say that though I agree with the above statements, I do believe that as a whole (not an individual by individual basis) that men, esp white men, have it easier than women. Gender and color is a factor in ones life, for someone who is white and male will generally have it easier than most.

[camillalev]

I appreciate you caring about these issues but discuss them in some radical feminist circles and see what kind of reaction you get. Go on a blog like Jezebel and others and say these same things. See how they react to it.

 

A post I wrote earlier if you haven't seen it:

 

I responded to this already but I will give and example to illustrate true equality for both men and women:

 

Believing women are born with maternal instincts and are naturally better caregivers. How this hurts men: in custody, courts will strongly favor the mother over the father because she is a woman. This, in my opinion, is wrong. It should be about the individual. Just because she is a woman does not mean she is the better, healthier choice for a child. There an instances where the male is the better caregiver. Men can be quite caring, loving, strong and capable of raising a child. Yes, some women are amazing mothers! It's a matter if the individual.

 

On the flip side, believing all women are born destined to be a great caregiver and child-rearer is detrimental to women who aspire to a working career.. This believe can express itself negatively during the course of a woman's career in many ways, esp when aspiring toward senior positions. Some people do not think business is a woman's place, unless you're a secretary. Some people do not think women are competent in leadership roles, etc

 

 

That is one problematic belief, expressing itself in different ways, but it stems from the same place.

 

There are two sides to everything, equality needs to be balanced.

 

That's basically some of my thoughts on balanced and equal rights as far as assigning roles according to gender.

[Taramere]

Taramere have you ever gotten any backlash from other women for helping men? When I worked for the chamber of commerce there was a woman involved who used to run a battered woman's shelter. One time she helped a man get out of town because his ex was trying to kill him and she was ostracized and considered a traitor by her peers for helping the enemy.

 

Not that I can think of. Other than, obviously, that the estranged partner of a man I'm acting for might not like me very much - but then the same thing can happen if it's a woman I'm helping. That's just the nature of it...that you're not likely to be viewed very positively by the other side.

 

If you mean on a social level...no, not at all. I just haven't encountered these sorts of people that I can recall. I'm honestly trying to think back to an example I could offer up. There were a couple of militant people I studied with years ago, but I can't imagine them ostracising somebody for helping a man who needed help. They were militantly feminist, but not man-haters. And in fact, the more militantly feminist people I've encountered in life were equally likely to become militant in support of a man who they felt was getting a rough deal.

 

From some of the things you've said, I've got this picture in my head of the kind of people you're talking about...and I don't doubt that they exist, but I just haven't encountered that type. I don't really know what sort of circles they would hang out in. I didn't meet them in my previous profession (which was a caring one), and I wouldn't expect to frankly. They they sound too issue-laden to get through the training and cope with professional demands to be produce objective, evidenced reports that would stand up to formal scrutiny. They also sound too issue laden to avoid getting disciplined for inappropriate behaviour in the workplace.

 

Oh. I've met the occasional person who's said "but kids are better off with their mothers..." But those people usually make the comment in a way that suggests traditionalism rather than an anti-male approach. The gender stereotypes "women are the nurturers, better with kids" thing I mentioned earlier. It's not a point of view that I can recall being presented in a particularly aggressive way though, nor have I encountered hostility for suggesting that some men are very geared to nurturing and may be better at anticipating and meeting a child's needs than a mother whose temperament isn't a particularly nurturing or child friendly one.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Taramere

[thefooloftheyear]

Yes because there is no way in hell she will learn techniques to control the 250 lbs man in training.

 

They also send them on their own, without any weapon, pepper spray or tasers.

duh.

 

 

I'm done wasting my time here.

 

 

Dont just take your ball and go home...Help a poor knuckle dragger like me to understand the logic..

 

Also, please clarify the bolded...RCMP are police, no? The sentence is difficult to read...but I am an idiot, so maybe I just need some clarification..

 

TFY

[thefooloftheyear]

Police officers are not doing hand to hand combat with criminals, and they are generally paired up so one has a weapon on the perpetrator.

 

Notice that a lot of officers are fat and out of shape, generally it's not that physical of a job.

 

Sorry, lols....yes...part of the job requirement of a police officer is to be able to subdue a perp hopefully without the use of deadly force..Sure, I am aware that probably some locales have cops that do little more than chase cats out of trees and write traffic tickets, but in the majority of places you will need some physical strength.....There are dozens of videos on YouTube that show female police officers getting their brains beat in by bad guys...Its tragic..

 

Heck, to work for me, an individual has to be able to regularly lift items that weigh up to and more than 200lbs at times...I dont have any all male hiring policy in place...Id happily hire a woman..Id do it tomorrow...Pay is pretty good, too..Almost 27 years and not a single applicant ever....

 

BTW, I am all for equality in the sense that if a guy cant do it, then throw him out as well..

 

TFY

[boilingpoint]

It does, if feminist theory encourages a person to focus on gender based stereotypes generally, the unfair impact they can have...and if it results in them being a better advocate for men who have issues surrounding getting contact with their children.

 

Yes I have. Another thing I've noticed is that the people who like to point these gender differences out rarely seem very interested in taking action to address these situations. It seems to me that they'd rather spend their time complaining about how attention that successful awareness raising campaigns get for "female" causes, rather than trying to learn something from those awareness raising campaigns with the aim of using that learning to highlight causes they claim to care about. Possibly because anti-feminism is their cause, and there's not really any positive spin you can put on a cause like that - which is less about opening up opportunities for people and helping them to improve their lives as it is about trying to make life harder for the group you're "anti".

 

Who are you referring to? Who are these people? If you're accusing me of these things than say it directly.

 

It's not so much complaining about the success of feminist campaigns, which are always of course for female causes, but it's complaining about their stupidity and one-sided view on things.

 

Let me give you an example of a stupid campaign for a female cause... remember the ban bossy campaign? A campaign that tried to eliminate a word in the english language. A word. So what would you call that? I'd call it an attempt at political censorship and an attack on freedom of speech.

 

That was a campaign led and advocated by very powerful women i.e. Cheryl Sandberg and Beyonce...

 

My take is that feminism is old hat and any attempt to rebrand it as a movement that's primary focus is on equality for all rather than just about more rights for women is a misnomer.

 

Society is made up of men and women and everyone knows it takes 2 to tango - i.e. if your gender has a gender role then it's because other members of your gender have happily accepted that role, regardless of whether you like it or not - that goes for both men and women.

[SummerDreams]

Feminism added extra obligations to women while left men with the same ones they used to have. What started as a choice (work for women) has now become an obligation. Nobody can accept that a woman may not want to study or work. I realize feminism has done good as well to the humanity, but it has a bad result for me so I am against it.

[Revolver]

Modern american feminism is middle class white female privilege

[TigerLilly78]

Also, She says she is feminist but all of her beliefs seem very traditional (men "need to be men", women need to stay home to tends to kids, etc).

 

Honestly, most of the people who dislike feminism seem to have traditional values and resent the fact that the world is changing. .

 

I have what I guess alot would consider traditionalist values I think women should be able to take care of the home to some degree (this doesn't mean shes the mans servant) but it means she should cook keep the home some what clean that said I also think its good that women have the freedoms to chose and leave abusive relationships when they need to.

 

I think feminism is a good idea until the point its twisted and becomes destructive to the very core values of society.. when people take it to far its wrong...Or when women use all our wonderful "freedoms" to their benefit with no consideration for men.

 

Case in point there is another thread at the moment were a man is upset his GF is having a abortion but many say its "her body her choice" what about his choice and say in the life he also helped create? dont mean to create a powder keg with this one but it seams relevant to me as an instance were mens rights are totialy disreguaded for a womens "rights"

[Taramere]

Who are you referring to? Who are these people? If you're accusing me of these things than say it directly.

 

I thought I had been pretty clear already. I'm talking about antifeminist activism. It's commonly called "Men's Rights Activism" which I wouldn't have a problem with. However, in practice it often seems to be less about wanting to make life better for men, more about making it worse for women. I mentioned earlier one particularly prominent so-called Men's Rights organisation concerned with this sort of thing.

 

There are of course some very good ones (I've often mentioned a group called Families Need Fathers on here). The key difference between the useful organisations and those which just seem to be a bit poisonous is, again, that A are genuinely concerned with promoting awareness of men's issues whereas B are more concerned with countering movements and branches of education that are concerned with women's issues.

 

It's not so much complaining about the success of feminist campaigns, which are always of course for female causes, but it's complaining about their stupidity and one-sided view on things.

 

Let me give you an example of a stupid campaign for a female cause... remember the ban bossy campaign? A campaign that tried to eliminate a word in the english language. A word. So what would you call that? I'd call it an attempt at political censorship and an attack on freedom of speech.

 

Yes, I would agree that that sort of thing is just ridiculous. It's also quite amusingly ironic. "Stop calling women bossy. We're not bossy! Start calling us leaders." "I'm not controlling. Stop calling me controlling. I'm telling you, just stop it right now."

 

So yes, I'll definitely give you that. Good leaders of both genders tend, I think, to be people who influence and inspire as opposed to being little dictators who want to micromanage everything other people do. Trying to ban this and that just results in paralysis setting in with people.

 

 

My take is that feminism is old hat and any attempt to rebrand it as a movement that's primary focus is on equality for all rather than just about more rights for women is a misnomer.

 

Well, once again it really depends on what you mean by feminism. You can regard it as a political movement, which it certainly once was. Or you can see it more as an area of study that deals with issues impacting on women. Almost like a branch of anthropology. Not necessarily something that is focused exclusively on women's rights and promoting those rights, but that is more involved with helping women to do things well. How to negotiate certain tricky aspects of life - particularly those which tend to be specific to women.

 

I've known some men to become interested in feminism as a result of having a daughter. In fact, I can remember being surprised to find my own father (who isn't exactly Germaine Greer) reading a book on Women's Studies when I was in my teens. It was because he wanted to understand me better...as part of us improving our relationship.

 

I think there is certainly a place for a philosophy more geared towards men which can similarly help men to negotiate those aspects of life that tend to cause more problems for men than they do for women. It's not necessarily about having a political movement that makes certain demands and tries to impose restrictive laws. In many ways, every law that seeks to change the way people behave is a failure on the part of the society that introduces it....because it suggests fairly widespread poor parenting and poor education.

 

 

Society is made up of men and women and everyone knows it takes 2 to tango - i.e. if your gender has a gender role then it's because other members of your gender have happily accepted that role, regardless of whether you like it or not - that goes for both men and women.

 

The question is whether those roles exist as a sort of guidance (ie for people who want to be told "here's what it means to be a traditional man or a traditional woman...here's what you need to do if you want to fit into that traditional role) or whether it's imposed on people through either the legal system or through widespread social shaming of those who don't fit the traditional roles or stereotypes.

[angie2443]

Police officers are not doing hand to hand combat with criminals, and they are generally paired up so one has a weapon on the perpetrator.

 

Notice that a lot of officers are fat and out of shape, generally it's not that physical of a job.

 

LOL! We have plenty of cops in my family. They and plenty of their officer friends seem to have that skinny rear, big stomach thing going on. A lot of these officers look more like well fed couch potatos than well trained fighters.

[sillyanswer]

Actually, that WOULD make you a feminist.

 

It may be the "dictionary dedinition" focuses o women because women have historically been at a disadvantage, with men generally setting the rules and having most if the rights(obviously this more complicated than I'm able to express in one sentence). However, nowadays that we are mor on par(but with more work left to do) many feminists focus on and believe men should also have some of the rights that women have. Many if them would be quite ecstatic if we could stop assigning gender roles not only to women but men as well.

 

 

Feminism is not just about equal rights it's about balanced rights.

 

Then "feminism" is the wrong name for that thing.

[boilingpoint]

I thought I had been pretty clear already. I'm talking about antifeminist activism. It's commonly called "Men's Rights Activism" which I wouldn't have a problem with. However, in practice it often seems to be less about wanting to make life better for men, more about making it worse for women. I mentioned earlier one particularly prominent so-called Men's Rights organisation concerned with this sort of thing.

 

Nothing you write is very clear - it's all very general and vague. I wouldn't label myself antifeminist or MRA or whatever. You make sweeping statements on both and it doesn't have much to do with the stuff I wrote.

 

I'm just a guy with an opinion that I believe is valid. You could just dispute the points I make rather than making general statements about antifeminism activists... it's like a muslim zealot calling me an infidel. It gets us nowhere.

 

There are of course some very good ones (I've often mentioned a group called Families Need Fathers on here). The key difference between the useful organisations and those which just seem to be a bit poisonous is, again, that A are genuinely concerned with promoting awareness of men's issues whereas B are more concerned with countering movements and branches of education that are concerned with women's issues.

 

If you say so.

 

Yes, I would agree that that sort of thing is just ridiculous. It's also quite amusingly ironic. "Stop calling women bossy. We're not bossy! Start calling us leaders." "I'm not controlling. Stop calling me controlling. I'm telling you, just stop it right now."

 

So yes, I'll definitely give you that. Good leaders of both genders tend, I think, to be people who influence and inspire as opposed to being little dictators who want to micromanage everything other people do. Trying to ban this and that just results in paralysis setting in with people.

 

OK...

 

Well, once again it really depends on what you mean by feminism. You can regard it as a political movement, which it certainly once was. Or you can see it more as an area of study that deals with issues impacting on women. Almost like a branch of anthropology. Not necessarily something that is focused exclusively on women's rights and promoting those rights, but that is more involved with helping women to do things well. How to negotiate certain tricky aspects of life - particularly those which tend to be specific to women.

 

Modern feminism isn't just some theory or study you write an essay on only to forget about it later... It is most definitely a political movement that has an affect on the real world. For me it's the obnoxious feminist articles I read in leftie newspapers, the BBC radio shows where I listen to women's issues for 30min while I eat my breakfast in the morning, the women I see in real life who tell me it's a man's world with glass ceilings at work while they make more money than their boyfriends... All this is political and doesn't make me feel any closer to understanding women other than seeing that many are still complaining a lot even though as a woman they're are many perks that men don't have. Mostly it just makes me feel more and more alienated to the 'feminist' cause.

 

I've known some men to become interested in feminism as a result of having a daughter. In fact, I can remember being surprised to find my own father (who isn't exactly Germaine Greer) reading a book on Women's Studies when I was in my teens. It was because he wanted to understand me better...as part of us improving our relationship.

 

That's great. I've looked into modern feminism and had a lot of distaste for it. If I had a daughter it'd be very nice but I'd be more interested in her own beliefs based on experience rather than any political movement she might ascribe to.

 

I think there is certainly a place for a philosophy more geared towards men which can similarly help men to negotiate those aspects of life that tend to cause more problems for men than they do for women. It's not necessarily about having a political movement that makes certain demands and tries to impose restrictive laws. In many ways, every law that seeks to change the way people behave is a failure on the part of the society that introduces it....because it suggests fairly widespread poor parenting and poor education.

 

Yep, maybe you're right. One of the philosophies I would start with is to be sceptical of all the politically aggressive modern feminism these days and that women are not as innocent as you can be made to believe with all this complaining. Women have a lot of sway and can treat men like crap and do!

 

The question is whether those roles exist as a sort of guidance (ie for people who want to be told "here's what it means to be a traditional man or a traditional woman...here's what you need to do if you want to fit into that traditional role) or whether it's imposed on people through either the legal system or through widespread social shaming of those who don't fit the traditional roles or stereotypes.

 

Again you speak very generally and all with an academic air that doesn't actually enlighten all that much.

 

I don't see how gender roles are imposed legally, they're just enforced by the opinion of the other - we are all impaled on the crook of conditioning.

[Taramere]

Again you speak very generally and all with an academic air that doesn't actually enlighten all that much.

 

Well, I guess you and I are best not discussing this further. No point wasting further time

[Woggle]

Some men become feminist when having a daughter but some women also become anti-feminist when having a son. A friend of my wife's flipped out when she heard her son's teacher was openly male bashing while teaching class and said that innocent boys don't need to hear that.

[boilingpoint]

Well, I guess you and I are best not discussing this further. No point wasting further time

 

Ok. No offence intended.

[Taramere]

Ok. No offence intended.

 

No problem. I know I'm guilty of getting overly wordy at times, and I can see that it makes my posts/points less clear. It's something I need to work on.

[Maleficent]

Then "feminism" is the wrong name for that thing.

 

Good point. In the beginning, fight for equality meant fighting for women's right but today's reality has changed.

 

Probably why most 'women's studies' programs have been renamed to 'Gender Studies'

...

[Cristo]

Some men become feminist when having a daughter but some women also become anti-feminist when having a son. A friend of my wife's flipped out when she heard her son's teacher was openly male bashing while teaching class and said that innocent boys don't need to hear that.

 

This is true. My mother was a feminist in the 1970s, but has become anti-feminist since having 2 sons and seeing how poorly men get treated in society. I think she dislikes feminists more than I do lol.

[Cristo]

Why or why not? What aspects do you agree with,not agree with?

 

I am not a feminist and do not understand why any man would be. The main goal of modern feminism is to give women supremacy over men (which is happening). Why would I support a movement whose sole intention is to hurt me?

[ufo8mycat]

I am not a feminist and do not understand why any man would be. The main goal of modern feminism is to give women supremacy over men (which is happening). Why would I support a movement whose sole intention is to hurt me?

 

Many men are feminists as they like women and see them as peers with equitable rights. They may also observe the unconscious bias that occurs in many sphere and disagree with it. Fixed assumptions of gender hurt men and women.

 

While there are some extremists, as a feminist I am not part of a movement that advocates the supremacy of either sex or one that hurts anyone. I don't know anyone who believes that I am a left wing feminist with lots of other feminists and I don't know any that subscribes to this approach. It really frustrates me when people with little idea tell me what I am supposed to believe.

[Maleficent]

Many men are feminists as they like women and see them as peers with equitable rights. They may also observe the unconscious bias that occurs in many sphere and disagree with it. Fixed assumptions of gender hurt men and women.

 

While there are some extremists, as a feminist I am not part of a movement that advocates the supremacy of either sex or one that hurts anyone. I don't know anyone who believes that I am a left wing feminist with lots of other feminists and I don't know any that subscribes to this approach. It really frustrates me when people with little idea tell me what I am supposed to believe.

 

This! Right now, instead of fighting for equal rights for everyone, we are stuck fighting againts MRM and AVFM and the likes who are just the other side of extremists 'feminism'.

As a result the fight for equality is 2X harder.

 

Funny how that works....