You're right, women have it easier. Now what?

November 5, 2014

I don't lose, if a man who sees no value in me, doesn't approach me.

What does that have to do with what I said?

November 5, 2014

This may come as a surprise but some men actually have a taste for women in their age bracket. Not every 45+ year old is chasing after youth. I've known several guys in their 30s and 40s who are good-looking, established, etc who almost exclusively date/seek "older" women. Reasons like not wanting drama, kids or underdeveloped personalities are commonly cited.

Way to stereotype and generalize. Funny you think "old" means mature. I've met a lot of immature dramatic older women. A LOT.

This dire warning to women about how no one's going to want them when they're saggy old crones or some such has always smacked of wishful thinking to me. Like it's comforting to imagine that all those women rejecting guys now will die alone in their old age (which is 40, mind you) because no one will want them past the usefulness of their ovaries.

Not no one. Just no one attractive. I didn't say they have no options. Just fewer and worse options.

Welcome to reality. Anyone who believes they maintain their same level of sexual attractiveness regardless of age just isn't living in reality. Simple as that.

But believe what you want. Reality will be what it is.

Sure, yes a large percentage of men find much younger women attractive but not all of them can get them and not all of them want to get with them long term.

Also, what defines a man as "quality" is not always just the size of his bank account and beyond that, what would a significantly younger woman see in a man twice her age to make her even consider him?

The same thing an older woman sees in him I would imagine.

You're not really thinking this through are you?

November 5, 2014

But if a quality man has the choice between an older, aging, menopausal "quality woman" and a much younger, prettier woman who is also "quality" why would he pick the older one?

Because he likes that one better?

November 5, 2014

Way to stereotype and generalize. Funny you think "old" means mature. I've met a lot of immature dramatic older women. A LOT.

Where did I say old meant "mature"? And how did I stereotype. I gave the reasons older guys have given ME for not wanting to date a younger woman. These aren't my personal thoughts and feelings.

Welcome to reality. Anyone who believes they maintain their same level of sexual attractiveness regardless of age just isn't living in reality. Simple as that.

But believe what you want. Reality will be what it is.

I can't even deal with this bit here because none of what I said had anything to do with what I "believe". I'm going based on what I've seen with my own two eyes.

The same thing an older woman sees in him I would imagine.

Of course. Yet wouldn't you know, those same things will have varying (and often decreasing) appeal the older the guy is.

A 45 year old sales manager likely has little appeal to a 22 year old woman. If she's going to date someone in middle management you can bet your ass he's not going to nearly twice her age. Why? Why would she date him when she can date a younger guy?? He's certainly not going to be lavishing her with gifts and trips - the generally accepted benefit to dating older men - so what would be the interest there? Unless she just happens to like old dudes.....

Meanwhile, to a 40+ year old woman, he's a catch.

You're not really thinking this through are you?

Why is it that all your posts ooze unwarranted condescension?

November 5, 2014

My roommate is currently having sex with a girl like that. She will call him at 4am drunk and beg him to come see her. She has a lot of guys hitting on her, but she doesn't want any of them, just my roommate. He is having sex with her because she is easy, but he is never gonna get involved with her. He's holding out for someone better. Speak of the devil, he just walked in. He's making fun of her already.

Wow this is disgusting. I would never be friends or live with such a disrespectful, nasty user. He's not a decent guy, nor are the guys who support him and listen to him make fun of this girl. Yuck.

November 5, 2014

Wow this is disgusting. I would never be friends or live with such a disrespectful, nasty user. He's not a decent guy, nor are the guys who support him and listen to him make fun of this girl. Yuck.

I used to think like this too but I soon adopted the attitude that unless the girl is mentally handicapped, she knows full well what she's getting into. I'll send my sympathies to Sierra Leone or something.

November 5, 2014

Where did I say old meant "mature"? And how did I stereotype. I gave the reasons older guys have given ME for not wanting to date a younger woman. These aren't my personal thoughts and feelings.

Doesn't matter who's feelings it is. All that matters is its a stereotype and its not necessarily true.

I can't even deal with this bit here because none of what I said had anything to do with what I "believe". I'm going based on what I've seen with my own two eyes.

Do your eyes work better than mine? I have better than 20/20 vision.

Of course. Yet wouldn't you know, those same things will have varying (and often decreasing) appeal the older the guy is.

A 45 year old sales manager likely has little appeal to a 22 year old woman. If she's going to date someone in middle management you can bet your ass he's not going to nearly twice her age. Why? Why would she date him when she can date a younger guy?? He's certainly not going to be lavishing her with gifts and trips - the generally accepted benefit to dating older men - so what would be the interest there? Unless she just happens to like old dudes.....

Meanwhile, to a 40+ year old woman, he's a catch.

Why is it that all your posts ooze unwarranted condescension?

So you admit women have to lower their standards as they age because they have less options.

Thanks for proving my point. :laugh:

November 5, 2014

So you admit women have to lower their standards as they age because they have less options.

If a younger woman dated him, wouldn't she also be lowering her standards?

November 5, 2014

Wow this is disgusting. I would never be friends or live with such a disrespectful, nasty user. He's not a decent guy, nor are the guys who support him and listen to him make fun of this girl. Yuck.

It is but at the end of the day she keeps going back for more. With my former FWB we were completely honest with each other and she was clear she only wanted casual. When she started to get feelings I broke it off and told her that couldn't happen but she wouldn't leave me alone. I started acting like a complete jerk hoping she would go away but it only made her more attracted.

November 5, 2014

Doesn't matter who's feelings it is. All that matters is its a stereotype and its not necessarily true.

No, it does matter who's feelings they are since you told me I was stereotyping. Although what doesn't matter is whether it's a stereotype or not because a lot of guys feel that way regardless of the level of truth in it.

So you admit women have to lower their standards as they age because they have less options.

Thanks for proving my point. :laugh:

How is it lowering your standards? Absolutely nothing changed about that scenario except for the age of the women in question. He's just not a "catch" to the 20-something because he's old.

I have no idea why you're laughing because your arguments are poorly thought out.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Lernaean_Hydra

November 5, 2014

That's good! Most women aren't like this, but I've seen plenty who are. They're usually the ones with a FWB, but can't seem to find a BF. You'll find a lot of them in the ranks of women complaining about every guy they meet "using them for sex."

I guess I cant relate. If whe doesnt want to be his fwb, she can stop having sex with him.

You missed my point. The point was women overlook men who see them as more than a real life sex toy.

Ok fair enough, but lets not pretend things will be honky dory because hes a regular guy.

It's the same advice women tend to give men on here, but they don't seem to want to take their own advice.

(I dont know if ive ever told a guy to avoid attractive girls because theyre bitches. Im pretty sure ive spoken up when people were saying derogatory, presumptuous things about good looking women.)

Make of it what you will. Keep on doing your thing and let me know how that works for you.

Ok. Im pretty happy with what I have going on now.

November 5, 2014

If a younger woman dated him, wouldn't she also be lowering her standards?

Only according to Lernaean_Hydra

November 5, 2014

No, it does matter who's feelings they are since you told me I was stereotyping. Although what doesn't matter is whether it's a stereotype or not because a lot of guys feel that way regardless of the level of truth in it.

The level of truth totally matters when you're using such a statement to support your argument that there is no reason for a man to prefer a younger woman.

How is it lowering your standards? Absolutely nothing changed about that scenario except for the age of the women in question. He's just not a "catch" to the 20-something because he's old.

I have no idea why you're laughing because your arguments are poorly thought out.

I'm not the one who said he is not a catch to the 20-something because he is old. That was you.

My only argument is women have less options as they age. So far you have not provided a good counter argument. So the only one here with a "poorly thought out argument" is you.

November 5, 2014

My only argument is women have less options as they age. So far you have not provided a good counter argument. So the only one here with a "poorly thought out argument" is you.

Isn't this all opinion though? Is it only a good argument if you find it acceptable?

I would interested in what evidence exists for all of this. Not anecdotal but actual demographic data and independent evidence. Like in articles and stuff. Not just blogs.

The divorce rate is lower in Australia (slightly) than in the US and I am married, so I can't comment based on experience or observation.

But there is evidence (as in, actual published literature) like marries like based on socio-economic factors. The previously cited "7 year age gap" is narrowing but more prevalent in second marriages. So in reality, we generally don't move to far from our comfort zones. Highly educated, high earning couples are less likely to have children and less likely to divorce.

The social science literature has also looked at time frame to remarriage after divorce. Men, without question, move on and remarry faster than women.

The thinking being that men value the comfort and security of a relationship more than women. But obviously the are marrying women so it isn't a 1:1. The gaps appear to be that the singles are in young men and older women. So in that sense, it doesn't sound like middle aged men have it too hard to me.

How appropriate.

There are also cultural factors. There is an "oversupply" of young men in Asian countries as women are increasingly educated and have more options in terms of career, location and who they marry.

So my interpretation of this is, most people don't have it too hard. There are always outliers but based on the evidence that there are more single older women (also attributable to the fact that women live on average 8 years more than men), I am not sure how it logically follows that "women have it easier"

Young women might, older women are virtually socially invisible.

November 5, 2014

Isn't this all opinion though? Is it only a good argument if you find it acceptable?
I would interested in what evidence exists for all of this. Not anecdotal but actual demographic data and independent evidence. Like in articles and stuff.
.....
Young women might, older women are virtually socially invisible.

Isn't the start of your post contradictory to the ending?

November 5, 2014

Isn't the start of your post contradictory to the ending?

No, it is internally consistent. Mister Zen is generally disagreeable with anything that doesn't support his personal experience. He spoke of "no good argument" that is - one that supports his view.

There have been some good counter arguments as to why women do not have less options as they age. It might depend on where you live and your socio-economic status. It is entirely likely that both men and women have relationships gaps as they age but that does not mean that they won't partner up later in life.

November 5, 2014

No, it is internally consistent. Mister Zen is generally disagreeable with anything that doesn't support his personal experience. He spoke of "no good argument" that is - one that supports his view.

There have been some good counter arguments as to why women do not have less options as they age. It might depend on where you live and your socio-economic status. It is entirely likely that both men and women have relationships gaps as they age but that does not mean that they won't partner up later in life.

I have not seen any solid evidence as to it, but anecdotal from women I know and articles I've read, they say its harder. Harder compared to their more bountiful younger days though does not mean its extremely difficult. They now have to put in more effort I'd say. When I did OLD, I noticed on one site that the sign up rate for older women was 10x greater than for younger women, and I am sure that reflects it. (and is part of the demographic imbalance on OLD). At the same time its not like most older single guys are exactly having a ball either. Testosterone/GH and women's sexy beauty and need to have a family motivates guys when they're young. That all fades after 40. I guess it depends how much older single guys crave companionship or someone to look after them. Still its better to be a hit with the opposite sex in your prime youth years than your wrinkle years, imo.

November 5, 2014

I disagree with the "lower quality" remark.

A quality women will always attract a quality man. After the blush of youth has passed, all she loses are the noise of men only attracted for her youth.

In most cases than not, a quality woman would have found her mate long before she turn 30, if not sooner than that. After all, that is the best time to snag the best possible male out of the bunch as your life mate.

And while there may be quality women remaining that wasn't lucky to meet that mark (or simply wasn't looking during that time frame), they are certainly rare enough that you have to be lucky to find her and she has interest in you.

So unless you are able to win the dating lottery, you are basically out of luck.

November 5, 2014

The level of truth totally matters when you're using such a statement to support your argument that there is no reason for a man to prefer a younger woman.

Where are you getting this stuff from? I never said there was no reason for a man to prefer a younger woman nor was that the implication. I said some men prefer older women for various reasons. That's just an undeniable fact.

I'm not the one who said he is not a catch to the 20-something because he is old. That was you.

Yet you implied that the 40 year old who viewed him as such as "lowering her standards" due to age. The origional agrument - before your attempt to derail it - was that a large prtion of younger women have little interest in older men that can only offer them the same or less than a man within their own age range. The point being, regardless of how many older men might like a younger partner, the number of young women willing to date them is still relatively small in comparison.

My only argument is women have less options as they age.

No one is disagreeing women have less options as they age - as does everyone. I am, however, firmly disagreeing with the supposition that circumstances are as dire as you - and a few others - make them out to be.

So far you have not provided a good counter argument. So the only one here with a "poorly thought out argument" is you.

Frankly I feel like my arguments have been quite sound thanks. But I'm not going to sit here an argue whose argument is better or worse with you. Instead I'll allow them to speak for themselves......

November 5, 2014

I used to think like this too but I soon adopted the attitude that unless the girl is mentally handicapped, she knows full well what she's getting into. I'll send my sympathies to Sierra Leone or something.

She may or may not have some mental handicap, but she's emotionally handicapped and may well have some kind of child sex abuse that makes her allow herself and her body to be so disrespected. People who have any self esteem don't allow that. But regardless of what is going on with her, I think the guy (or you can reverse the genders) who disrespects and degrades their sexual partner is not a quality person. And to be friends with that person and support that degradation of another person doesn't indicate a quality person either.

I can't even imagine a friend of mine ridiculing, degrading, and using their sex partner, even if that partner seemed somehow desperate and willing. It's a low level of human development and interaction and it's gross.

Edited November 5, 2014 by lollipopspot

November 5, 2014

Doing that stuff in the workplace is fine but most people in general don't want somebody that approaches relationships like that. Women don't like men who act like that in the home so what makes anybody think that it will work the other way around. I know plenty of guys who can leave that at work and still be loving partners so why is that impossible for some women to do?

Today, despite all of the gains we have made, neither men nor women have real choice. Until women have supportive employers and colleagues as well as partners who share family responsibilities, they don't have real choice. And until men are fully respected for contributing inside the home, they don't have real choice either.”