You're right, women have it easier. Now what?

[Woggle]

Why is it okay for a woman to want a masculine man but if a man says he wants a feminine women people call him sexist. BY the way the negative traits given to women in this thread is something neither gender should want to be.

[Imported]

The big giant flaw those making this argument fail to recognize, but as Lernaean pointed out, is that different women have different tastes in men! In another thread someone raised up George Clooney as though it was some biological hardwiring in every woman to be into him when I am in no way swooning over Clooney...the person also acted like no woman has ever dumped Clooney...and I pointed out that good looking people get dumped like everyone else and no matter how hot you are, there are people who swill simply not be into you and like other looks.

 

So this idea that there is some objective 20% that ALL women desire and like is absurd. When what one woman might deem as desirable is not what another would.

 

Everyone wants to date someone THEY find desirable. I never dated any man I wasn't attracted to. That said, while I was attracted to them and while many of them were probably conventionally attractive and would at least be considered cute, they weren't models and it didn't mean that every other woman would be attracted to them too. As long as I liked them, that's what matters. Likewise how many times have women said a man can be good looking but you still have zero feelings for him or once you get to know him lose that attraction whereas a man less good looking you find yourself super into...but nope...those real life experiences and feelings are ignored to discuss some mythical 20% of men that ALL women go after. Mmmkay

 

 

Assuming the girl honest to God believes she is attractive enough for a "George Cloony", I promise you that a "George Cloony" will be more sought after by the vast majority of such women than a "George Costanza".

[clia]

The other thing I truly am confused about is:

 

If dating is easier for women and and harder for guys and supposedly women need to give a monolithic group called men a chance because it's harder....and assuming these women dating are straight...aren't they dating guys and already giving guys a chance???? :confused:

 

So if they are dating guys how can it be harder for guys when these women are dating guys...

 

It clearly has to be working BOTH ways as women aren't just dating themselves...

 

If they have 50 dates a year...clearly there are 50 guys out there going out with them....so can someone explain this to me. Or is the argument really that as an individual women don't want to date YOU so you are assuming this goes for every man and women should give you a chance and let's ignore all the other men they go out with....which I suppose leads some men to concoct this idea that the women who have dates and are dating men are dating rich, famous, celebrities in the 20% supposedly...

 

Yeah, I see plenty of men who objectively speaking are not in the top 20%, but who are wearing wedding rings and holding hands with women and have kids running around them. How on Earth are these men getting dates -- much less getting married and procreating -- if women have such high standards?

[Phoe]

The other thing I truly am confused about is:

 

If dating is easier for women and and harder for guys and supposedly women need to give a monolithic group called men a chance because it's harder....and assuming these women dating are straight...aren't they dating guys and already giving guys a chance???? :confused:

 

So if they are dating guys how can it be harder for guys when these women are dating guys...

 

It clearly has to be working BOTH ways as women aren't just dating themselves...

 

If they have 50 dates a year...clearly there are 50 guys out there going out with them....so can someone explain this to me. Or is the argument really that as an individual women don't want to date YOU so you are assuming this goes for every man and women should give you a chance and let's ignore all the other men they go out with....which I suppose leads some men to concoct this idea that the women who have dates and are dating men are dating rich, famous, celebrities in the 20% supposedly...

 

Apparently, the idea is that those 50 women who went on dates all went out with the same 5 guys. I think that's what they're trying to say

[Woggle]

I see plenty of men and women who are not model material in marriages and in many cases happy marriages.

[Phoe]

I think the biggest thing that would help both parties, is to step back and objectively realize the good and bad for both.

 

While I've personally had a harder time than most women, I accept that overall, most women have a better time than most men.

 

And some men have a better time than others, and some men have a better time than even a normal woman.

 

Both parties need to accept that there are variables. Men need to seriously accept that not every woman has men banging her door down, buzzing around her, waiting in line. Not all women have a list of men at her disposal at any minute where all she must do is choose which one she wants.

 

And women need to accept that some men really just have it crappy. And be more understanding. Take that knowledge in, and apply it to your future interactions.

 

There are women who need to stop being so dang awful towards men, treating them like dirt, or like they're disposable. Laughing in their faces. And there are men who need to acknowledge that there are women who want to see things get better for them. There are women who actively try their best to make it so that the men's dating world isn't so abysmal.

 

And men, for gods sake, stop attacking and targeting these women who are trying their best to help! Stop doing the "sure there are rare good women in the world, but they sure aren't on a forum talking about it". Seriously?? Just because I'm actively voicing my thoughts, and actively trying to create positivity for men on this forum, I'm a crook? Just by saying it, I'm false? A phony? Wtf.

 

Women need to take in what men are saying, and apply it. Be more kind, be more accepting and open. And men need to accept that there are women who are listening and willing to help, and stop attacking us every chance you get.

[Lernaean_Hydra]

Why is it okay for a woman to want a masculine man but if a man says he wants a feminine women people call him sexist. BY the way the negative traits given to women in this thread is something neither gender should want to be.

 

Who said it wasn't okay? I have no problem with a guy saying he wants a feminine woman, in fact, I'd like to know what exactly it is you consider "feminine".

 

The only time I would consider a guy a "sexist" is when it becomes clear he's not looking for 'femininity' but a distressed damsel in stiletto heels. A lot of guys apparently believe a woman cannot be both independent and feminine which is also something that bothers me.

[Phoe]

Who said it wasn't okay? I have no problem with a guy saying he wants a feminine woman, in fact, I'd like to know what exactly it is you consider "feminine".

 

The only time I would consider a guy a "sexist" is when it becomes clear he's not looking for 'femininity' but a distressed damsel in stiletto heels. A lot of guys apparently believe a woman cannot be both independent and feminine which is also something that bothers me.

 

Indeed. I was recently told by a poster that men don't want me because I don't teeter around in dresses and heels, falling over so men can catch me. That they don't want to catch me because they probably mistake me for a man.

 

Okay then...

[MissBee]

Assuming the girl honest to God believes she is attractive enough for a "George Cloony", I promise you that a "George Cloony" will be more sought after by the vast majority of such women than a "George Costanza".

 

Look...this is real life we're talking about.

 

Most people in the world aren't models or celebrities and most people are dating, sleeping with and having sex with regular folks like themselves and are quite happy about it. While someone may appreciate the look of a George Clooney, and as I said, he looks alright to me, I don't fancy him, appreciating it and being ONLY attracted to that or wanting every man to look like that is not the same.

 

Anyone trying to base their standards off of the rich, famous or uber good looking and chasing that will find themselves sorely disappointed...but for the rest of us normal folks, we want someone we like, are attracted to, at least find cute and click with...that's it.

 

Every woman can't be Beyonce...and if every man were expecting that they'd have a rough life. While a man may find her attractive and good looking it doesn't mean he can't find any other normal woman attractive and can't appreciate a normal woman because there exists other women better looking. Looks aren't all as well..which I'm immensely confused about why this is even a topic...I know NOTHING about George Clooney as a person, he might be the most aggravating person to hang out with...but just because I know how he looks I'm supposed to be taking my panties off and chasing him down the street. NO. I like more than just a handsome face. I'm not shallow and one dimensional or smitten by just good looks. I need to lick with a man and feel good with him...and sorry every handsome face doesn't do that for me. And while I have my celeb crushes, I am quite happy when dating my normal boyfriends and have ZERO interest in leaving them for the fantasy of come celebrity.

[MissBee]

Apparently, the idea is that those 50 women who went on dates all went out with the same 5 guys. I think that's what they're trying to say

 

Which is clearly absurd. But if someone needs to twist reality and logic to go to the illogical to find solace...mmkay!

[Anela]

And I almost never see a sentiment like this.

 

Like "I've been there" or "I know how much that sucks".

 

Or as a woman "Yea, I rejected a guy like you. That sucks."

 

It's really the right sentiment.

 

As a woman: "Yeah, I've been there, and I know how much it sucks."

 

Several men in response to this: "There is no way that you can relate. You can get sex whenever you want, because men will have sex with just about anyone."

[MissBee]

Yeah, I see plenty of men who objectively speaking are not in the top 20%, but who are wearing wedding rings and holding hands with women and have kids running around them. How on Earth are these men getting dates -- much less getting married and procreating -- if women have such high standards?

 

The theory according to Cristo is that they have settled for one of the dreaded 80 percenters...but are probably waiting to jump ship if they ever meet a 20 percenter .

 

It makes perfect sense why dating feels harder than average if these are your views.

[pteromom]

This is as much a stereotype as some of the crap the misogynists post. Men want love as much as anybody else and finding genuine love for either gender is very very hard these days.

 

True - men want love too.

 

But when men are saying "Dating is easier for women", what they are considering are the initial stages of dating.

 

It's easier for most women to actually GO on a date, because in general, men pursue.

 

It's easier for most women in that they do not face the potential rejection of asking someone out.

 

But beyond that, the playing field becomes equal again.

 

Once you've said yes and gone on a date, both men and women face the same struggles. When to become vulnerable; when to trust; how to deal with differences; learning who the other person is and learning to accept the parts of them you may not be crazy about; sharing the parts of yourself that you aren't crazy about; keeping balance in romance and the drudgery of daily life; etc; etc; etc.

 

Relationships are hard for men and women. Neither has an advantage once you get past the initial stages.

 

But sure - I freely admit that when it comes to the first step, women generally have it easier than men do. There are men who have it easy though, and women who have it tough. There's no absolute rule.

 

As far as the 20%, I never had any interest in those flashy guys. I always was attracted to guys who were smart and interesting and had something to say and share. There are plenty of young women like that out there. But we aren't the flashy girls... so you have to look past the flashy ones and look to the quiet girls behind them, and yes - you have to be willing to make that first move.

[Phoe]

As a woman: "Yeah, I've been there, and I know how much it sucks."

 

Several men in response to this: "There is no way that you can relate. You can get sex whenever you want, because men will have sex with just about anyone."

 

Literally. Exactly.

 

If we try to console and just offer an ear, we are still told off.

 

I remember I was in a thread once of a guy, and I had gone through a similar situation, so I added my experience to the thread, tried to comfort the OP, and some other poster came in and just rained down hate on me, told me to get out and stop posting in the OPs thread, that I was just making it worse, and it doesn't matter if my experience seems similar, that it's not similar, because I'm a woman, and I will never know what it's like and I need to stop posting, that it's very insulting to men.

[Phoe]

The theory according to Cristo is that they have settled for one of the dreaded 80 percenters...but are probably waiting to jump ship if they ever meet a 20 percenter .

 

It makes perfect sense why dating feels harder than average if these are your views.

 

Indeed, I would feel pretty frustrated if I had those views. In fact, I could easily reverse them and state, based on my experiences, men will jump ship if they get a better deal.

 

I've never dated a top 20%. I've dated what society would probably consider the bottom 20%. Conventionally unattractive, no job, no car, no education, virgin, socially awkward, etc.

 

But wouldn't you know it, I got cheated on and dumped for that girl more than once. Always a girl that was far prettier and higher quality than me.

 

Sure would be easy to find a pattern and start blaming men. But I dont.

[pteromom]

Assuming the girl honest to God believes she is attractive enough for a "George Cloony", I promise you that a "George Cloony" will be more sought after by the vast majority of such women than a "George Costanza".

 

True, but only part of that is about looks.

 

The other part is that George Clooney comes across as a very happy, radiant, charming guy. His energy is very attractive, so people want to be with him. Even though he isn't my type of guy, I would absolutely love to hang out with him and his friends, because it would probably be a blast.

 

Compare that to George Costanza. He's bitter, depressed, sarcastic. He lies. He is always looking for ways to manipulate people to get what he wants. While he's very funny on the show, his personality is JUST AWFUL. Nobody wants to be with someone like that.

 

In real life however, Jason Alexander is married to a tall thin and very happy looking woman, despite obviously not being in the top 20% of lookers. And he married her in 1982. That was before he was highly successful, so she didn't go to him for his money. My guess is that in real life, Jason Alexander is a smart happy fun guy.

[Got it]

But you do admit that women have it easier. It would be nice if women admitted this, at the very least.

 

You know what I find frustating. Is the entitlement I owe another person, including the whole male gender, anything. That as a women I am expected to dole out my sexual advances because men feel they are entitled to female companionship.

 

That is a want not a need. No person is owed sexual companionship. So if it doesn't seem fair, isn't working out, feel that the other side has it "easy" then bow out.

 

Because once you stop prioritizing it then this whole dynamic stops mattering. Your world will continue to go around but this major weight is off your shoulders.

 

And if you want a sexual relationship, but feel that the deck is stacked, have your family arrange a marriage. This is not common in the western culture but is common in a few others. Then this whole attraction/love piece is diminished. It is about what is the best for the families.

[Rejected Rosebud]

One item I would like to see balanced is payment for dates. In previous generations when women had no money of their own, the man paying made sense. I don't see what the man is paying for now.

 

 

In one year of unsuccessful dating, I spent well over $5,000. I admit that a large part of that was my own foolishness for not properly detecting disinterest early enough. The point still remains though: Dating is a gamble for men who generally invest more money.

 

 

I believe costs should be split early on until a relationship is defined. Both parties she be investing equally early on.

 

Then you should live that way. That's good, to live by your beliefs. But it's not a societal issue. You can only see it balanced in your OWN life.

 

As long as some guys want to take girls out and pay for it, there will always be girls who accept and enjoy that.

 

I do believe in equality and I don't think that guys should have to pay because they're a guy, but when one asked me on a date, chose something really special, and treated me to it, it made me feel so good.

[Imajerk17]

Going out with a guy one time is not leading him on. It's giving him a chance. Once you've done that and are sure that there isn't anything between you two, then just tell him if he asks for another date.

 

 

 

Date, hang-out same thing.

 

You don't have to spend the whole day hanging out with a guy. Just do something you would enjoy regardless and have him come along for an hour or whatever.

 

This is what I am confused about though.

 

I know, from reading the threads on here, that there are a few guys on here posting on this very thread, who have women who seem clearly into them. Why won't these guys take this very advice and give the woman a chance and go on a date with her?

 

She might have a side to her that you haven't seen. You and she might really get each other's humor. You both might have a great time. If nothing else you might end up friends.

[pteromom]

Because once you stop prioritizing it then this whole dynamic stops mattering. Your world will continue to go around but this major weight is off your shoulders.

 

And if you want a sexual relationship, but feel that the deck is stacked, have your family arrange a marriage. This is not common in the western culture but is common in a few others. Then this whole attraction/love piece is diminished. It is about what is the best for the families.

 

True!

 

The whole thing is you have to deal with reality.

 

And if you believe that you have zero options to date because of the way society works, you still have to deal with that reality.

 

So assuming that is true, what are your options?

 

- Be angry and bitter and spend your life miserable.

 

- Try to change the way the world works. Seriously - if this is your plan, good luck. Work on your message so that people will be open to hearing it. Learn to speak publicly about it. Make YouTube videos. Give people action items to start changing the world. Turn your passion into action.

 

- Never give up and just keep asking out women until one says yes and you can hold on to her.

 

- Work on your looks, personality, success, etc. so that you become more attractive and can play the game.

 

- Settle for anyone you can get.

 

- Challenge your thinking and see if you can get to a place where you are more positive about your options and learn whether it makes a difference for you.

 

- Decide to put dating on the back burner and work on making the rest of your life fulfilling. If it happens, it happens, but you won't waste a bunch of energy worrying about it.

 

- Pay for sex.

 

You have to choose something. And I am not saying one path is better than another. But you have to decide who you want to be in this life.

[Anela]

Literally. Exactly.

 

If we try to console and just offer an ear, we are still told off.

 

I remember I was in a thread once of a guy, and I had gone through a similar situation, so I added my experience to the thread, tried to comfort the OP, and some other poster came in and just rained down hate on me, told me to get out and stop posting in the OPs thread, that I was just making it worse, and it doesn't matter if my experience seems similar, that it's not similar, because I'm a woman, and I will never know what it's like and I need to stop posting, that it's very insulting to men.

 

That's why my reaction is usually something like this now:

[Phoe]

One item I would like to see balanced is payment for dates. In previous generations when women had no money of their own, the man paying made sense. I don't see what the man is paying for now.

 

 

In one year of unsuccessful dating, I spent well over $5,000. I admit that a large part of that was my own foolishness for not properly detecting disinterest early enough. The point still remains though: Dating is a gamble for men who generally invest more money.

 

 

I believe costs should be split early on until a relationship is defined. Both parties she be investing equally early on.

 

$5000????

 

Either you're going on a crazy large amount of dates, or you're spending waaaay too much per date.

 

All my first dates were either free, or about $3 for a coffee.

 

No man has ever spent more than $15 on me for a date. And that was well into an established relationship.

 

You should definitely rethink your dates.

[Phoe]

That's why my reaction is usually something like this now:

 

I literally write that sometimes.

 

Only, when I post on the forum, tone and inflection is lost, and it appears rather bland.

 

Alrighty then.

 

See?

[Rejected Rosebud]

What I would love to happen, even though I know it has a zero percent chance of actually occurring; is for women to accept that dating is harder for guys and to just give a guy one date as long as he's decent looking and seems nice.

 

WHY? Sorry because I guess it's hard for you but I would not accept that and frankly guys' dating problems are not my business to accept or not accept, that is not a part of my life. If I am looking for a partner, I am not going to give any guy a "chance" when I know absolutely that he is not the guy for me. "Decent looking and seems nice" hardly even enters into the picture for me. If I am not looking for a partner and satisfied with my life as it is, I am also not going to give a guy a chance just because he wants to go out with me. Why would I if I am not interested for ANY reason?

 

Why is it that you guys think that what a guy wants is so important, moreso than what a girl wants (or doesn't want)? I just don't get it. Just because you are a guy doesn't mean that you are ENTITLED to have dates or a girlfriend. None of us are. We're all really lucky when we get that.

 

 

Women seem to have such high standards that even getting one date with an average girl is a feat of strength if you aren't a super amazing guy.

 

He needs to be a super amazing guy to ME anyway. Or else why go out? Unless you're a golddigger who is looking for free meals.

 

Of course the current system is working for women, so why would they change anything? They don't care what men have to go through.

 

Do you care what women have to go through? I know you don't think that we go through anything, so just leave it at no, you don't care. Anyway, your dating problems are not the problem of women in general. If you're having dating problems then figure out how to be more dateable or just accept your lot in life - that goes for anybody male or female.

[Got it]

Going out with a guy one time is not leading him on. It's giving him a chance. Once you've done that and are sure that there isn't anything between you two, then just tell him if he asks for another date.

 

 

 

Date, hang-out same thing.

 

You don't have to spend the whole day hanging out with a guy. Just do something you would enjoy regardless and have him come along for an hour or whatever.

 

And for every person who says this is another person crying, "why did you go out with me if you were never interested in me! Why lead me on!?!"