Improving Phoe

[Mr Scorpio]

As a guy Id like a woman that has a solid career and some skills...I have been completely self sufficient my whole life, but I also like a driven type as well, its a huge plus....

 

 

Agreed. Not only from the pragmatic perspective of being able to afford nice things, and not only from the perspective of wanting a partner with drive. My ex was a psychologist, and as shallow as it may be, I enjoyed being able to introduce her as such.

[Mr Scorpio]

The subject of this thread is Phoe, not me.

 

 

Technically true. However, from a broader perspective, the subject of the thread is how to improve oneself. From your previous threads, this seems like a subject you would be interested in.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Mr Scorpio

[Phoe]

What are your thoughts about those women you define as "stereotypical"? Do you also feel negatively about them, or is it just a case of wanting to avoid being like them because of things you've heard men say about them?

 

Being a woman isn't a wrong thing, Phoe. Being a stereotypical woman, whatever that means...so what? Being criticised because you're a woman and because you're not studiously avoiding every piece of behaviour that people bitch about as "typically female"...so what?

 

If somebody is a tomboy by nature, then great....but you've said that you were groomed by your father to be a tomboy. If you went back to being a child, taking your father out of the equation for a moment - what sort of things did you enjoy doing? What did you want to be? Did you have a clear idea of these things that were separate from who your dad wanted you to be?

 

I'm kind of stunned to see a number of responses suggesting I have negative feelings towards women. That shows that I definitely am miscommunicating what I'm trying to say.

 

I have nothing against women, unless they happen to be a mean woman. Same with mean men, really. I just don't like mean people, regardless of gender.

 

I don't judge people on their physical anatomy, but I just find that I don't have QUITE as much in common with the stereotypical "girly, feminine woman". I don't dislike her, and I get along just fine with her, but I'll rarely get close on a deep level, because we just don't have a lot in common.

 

I also see I miscommunicated my father's role in me becoming a tomboy. It's not like he forced me into it and ripped barbies out of my hands in favor of legos. I always was predisposed to do things the boys were doing. I wanted to play sports. I wanted to run around and dig in the dirt. I wanted to be a power ranger and I loved monster trucks. My mom desperately wanted me to be a disney princess, a barbie lover, a dress wearer. I hated all of it. She bought barbie after barbie, and I wouldn't even take them out of the box. I just didn't care. I wanted to play with my legos instead.

 

Because of that, he really latched on to that and raised me as if I was a boy. No treating me like a girl. He even gave me a bowlcut at one time when I was a child, and everyone at school thought I was a little boy. My mom was LIVID when she came home to find that haircut on me.

 

I don't suppress something inside me to avoid being very feminine, it's just not a desire I have, and all the negative things I heard when I was younger, simply cemented into my mind that being a tomboy seemed "right".

 

Had I heard really positive things about girlyness, I likely would've tried to suppress the tomboy and become girly. It's only NOW, in my mid-20's, that I start hearing about how men prefer girly, they prefer feminine. That the girl who can do all the things a man can do, is not desirable.

 

I tend to agree with some of the other posters that moving to a bigger city would open up your options a lot. I just don't see what is going to change about your job situation if you stay where you are, given that you are having so much trouble finding a job there over the past two years. You are still going to be stuck doing hard labor, making minimum wage, with little extra money. Do you want to still be doing that two years from now? It might be time to just take a risk and make some changes.

 

I really find it hard to believe that you couldn't make more money waitressing in Los Angeles. If not waitressing, there have got to be far more job opportunities there than where you are now. As for living expense, find roommates or just rent a room somewhere for awhile. You can do that relatively cheaply. I think you mentioned you were in a sorority? Aren't there alumni networks that could help you find roommates? Moving itself will cost you gas money and a month's rent (maybe, depending on your lease.) It just seems like being in a city like Los Angeles (for example) would allow you to possibly network within your field of interest (I can't remember your major, sorry) or to get more involved in that field, which could lead to a job in that field. Or at least provide more opportunities than what you have now.

 

I won't move without already having a job lined up that I know is enough to pay rent and living expenses. But I can't get a hit for any job, and I know being a waitress won't get me enough. I tried applying for waitressing jobs here, to do as a 2nd job, and still can't get accepted. I'm literally applying for anything and everything, high and low, to either get a 2nd job, or 1 job that's better than my current one.

 

If I could even just get a raise or promotion at my current job, I'd have enough to start making changes, get back to school for my masters, or even do some vocational training to get me into something else, to help fund the masters.

 

My major is archaeology, and I minored in music and exercise studies.

 

 

 

Time to heal and time to better yourself are both fine, but not dating until 2016... are you sure that's not also avoidance of something that, in your own words, you suck at? Some aspects of dating get better by... dating.

 

It's only a little over a year. Not long at all. I typically spend anywhere from 6 months to 6 years between relationships, taking breaks from dating is just what I do, and it's kind of just the way things turn out. I don't get pursued often. The 6 year gap was not by choice. I wasn't getting asked out, and my approaches were getting rejected. I wanted to date and find someone SO BADLY, and I didn't even have a chance.

 

Huh? I gave her a compliment on her looks because she seems to think part of it has to do with her looks when it definitely doesn't.

 

I'm kind of stunned that no one wants to even touch the looks issue. I know that NO ONE enjoys criticizing a woman's looks, but it's necessary.

 

I know that looks is the thing that deterred the single men who are friends with me. They like me as a person and think I'm fun, but aren't attracted. I'm too tall, or my nose is too big, or my ears or too big, or my lips too small, I don't wear lipstick, I don't have enough tattoos, too many tattoos, butt too small, legs too long, hair not long enough, hair needs highlights, etc.

 

There's always SOMETHING.

 

So people simply saying "you look fine", feels like a cop out. Obviously my looks need to change if men are not attracted and literally tell me so.

 

If someone tells me "you need to wear heels and dresses and do hair and makeup fully EVERYDAY" well, I'm not gonna go to that extent. But if it were something that really would help, I might find a compromise and find ways to work it into my routine.

 

I can imagine that one issue you've known, which isn't AS common to all, is that you're so attractive that you've been so bombarded with social attention that you never even get much of a chance to call a time-out, walk back to the huddle, and call the next play.

 

First of all, look at the males in and around your world while you were in your formative years. Was there abuse or alcoholism or heavy drug use/addiction among them?

 

Not sure what you mean by me being bombarded with social attention? I have friends, but when it comes to romantic attention from men, I typically feel pretty invisible. I go years without dates, not by choice.

 

No drugs or alcohol. I date and interact with men who either don't drink at all, or only minimally. One guy hit me and I immediately left and never saw him again. The others just have had moments of verbal abuse.

 

Phoe, I read over your list of requirements back on page 2. I don't see anything wrong with it, that was basically the same list I had (minus the job since I was mostly going for university students). I think Andy K gave good advice- I think personally you went quite quickly with your last guy. You didn't really see what else is out there- you just went with the first guy who came along. Maybe you aren't really cautious? Maybe you don't really pay attention to red flags when they come out?

 

I think I don't even know what to consider a red flag. Unless I just start being hyper paranoid and analyzing EVERYTHING, I don't know how I'll accurately determine a "red flag" from normal behavior.

 

I'd suggest that you might benefit from dating far more casually for a few months. Keep the profile up and just go on some first dates. Compare the dates, and see how each man treats you differently, has different personalities, different life goals, different tastes, different humor, etc. Maybe you'll discover that you DO have preferences. There is NOTHING wrong with having preferences! It is what makes our own significant others special: they match our preferences. If you simply attach to the first man who asks politely, it is unlikely that you'll stumble upon a really wonderful match.

 

Dating casually may be good practice, although I do question it morally... I don't want to lead a guy on if I'm dating solely with intentions of casual interactions, and I don't have sex outside of relationships, so even that wouldn't be an option. It feels like I would just be using men. Go on a date, interact with him, maybe date a few more times, then call it off. On principle. Just so that I get practice at dating.

 

Seems so wrong...

 

Hi Phoe,

 

I haven't been reading this forum for very long but I remember a couple of things from recent posts of yours. One was you said "I never turn down guys, I have no business doing so." Another one was something about how you have never had an orgasm with a man but you would never expect one to work at it.

 

And you seem to have a negative view on women. You say that you are not like "most women" a lot. We're all unique but there is not anything wrong with being a woman.

 

Do you have any close girlfriends?

 

When I can count on my fingers the number of times I've been asked out, I do get the mindset that I have no business turning men down.

 

I could turn a guy down and it might be 3 years before I get a chance again.

 

Had I been picky and rejected guys, I'd be a dateless virgin right now.

 

I don't view women negatively. I touched on it earlier in this post. I just don't relate with certain aspects of being a feminine woman. I say I'm not like most women, because it's true. I'm rather odd, I'm an outlier. I may like things that most women don't, and dislike things that most women do. It's not some huge conspiracy, me stating i'm not like most women, is just a fact. I own up to that. The problem is whether that's a good or bad thing, because I'm starting to feel like it's a bad thing.

 

I have a handful of girlfriends. I'd say my girlfriend/guyfriend ratio would be about 40/60. I have more male friends simply because my interests are more commonly enjoyed by males. But I get along with women just fine. I was in a sorority so friendships with women are not some foreign concept.

 

Technically true. However, from a broader perspective, the subject of the thread is how to improve oneself. From your previous threads, this seems like a subject you could benefit from.

 

Indeed, the thread is about self-improvement, and if it can help others as well, then great!

[Phoe]

I suppose the big thing I'm not understanding, is this...

 

If, in another lifetime, I'd rejected the men that I accepted in THIS lifetime, better men would have approached me?

 

In that other lifetime, I would've had men approaching, who didn't approach me in this lifetime? All because I rejected the other men?

 

Men, do you decide not to pursue a woman, based on who she dated in the past? Assuming you're not friends with one of those men, because that's an obvious no go.

[NJ123]

I'm kind of stunned that no one wants to even touch the looks issue. I know that NO ONE enjoys criticizing a woman's looks, but it's necessary.

 

I know that looks is the thing that deterred the single men who are friends with me. They like me as a person and think I'm fun, but aren't attracted. I'm too tall, or my nose is too big, or my ears or too big, or my lips too small, I don't wear lipstick, I don't have enough tattoos, too many tattoos, butt too small, legs too long, hair not long enough, hair needs highlights, etc.

 

There's always SOMETHING.

 

So people simply saying "you look fine", feels like a cop out. Obviously my looks need to change if men are not attracted and literally tell me so.

 

If someone tells me "you need to wear heels and dresses and do hair and makeup fully EVERYDAY" well, I'm not gonna go to that extent. But if it were something that really would help, I might find a compromise and find ways to work it into my routine.

 

 

Well, obviously we can only judge you based on the photos you post on here. We don't know how you look day to day. But judging from your pictures on here, you look completely fine to me. You got a pretty face & seem to be in pretty good shape. I don't get why guys wouldn't give you attention, unless it's maybe the way you dress that are turning a lot of guys off. I really don't know.

[Phoe]

Well, obviously we can only judge you based on the photos you post on here. We don't know how you look day to day. But judging from your pictures on here, you look completely fine to me. You got a pretty face & seem to be in pretty good shape. I don't get why guys wouldn't give you attention, unless it's maybe the way you dress that are turning a lot of guys off. I really don't know.

 

I posted earlier with a website showing the kinds of clothes I wear.

 

Un-fancy.com

 

I am a minimalist, with a small wardrobe that's very similar to hers, but with fewer dresses/skirts, and no heels.

 

I have no idea how men feel about those kind of clothes.

[NJ123]

I posted earlier with a website showing the kinds of clothes I wear.

 

Un-fancy.com

 

I am a minimalist, with a small wardrobe that's very similar to hers, but with fewer dresses/skirts, and no heels.

 

I have no idea how men feel about those kind of clothes.

 

Well to me those outfits on that site look cute. I think it's mainly due to the area you live in which is causing you limited options. And you also need to be more picky in who you choose to date instead of going out with any guy since you've said you had a lot of problems with your exes. But the problem with that is it would give you even less options by being more picky since you have limited options as it is. I just really don't think it has to do with your looks at all.

[SincereOnlineGuy]

 

 

Not sure what you mean by me being bombarded with social attention? I have friends, but when it comes to romantic attention from men, I typically feel pretty invisible. I go years without dates, not by choice.

 

No drugs or alcohol. I date and interact with men who either don't drink at all, or only minimally. One guy hit me and I immediately left and never saw him again. The others just have had moments of verbal abuse.

 

 

 

Phoe, I'm asking about your childhood environment. Was there any alcohol or drug abuse in your environment back then?

 

And, was any prominent male abusive to you during (your) childhood??

 

(although the report that one guy hit you and you never so much as looked-back, gives me confidence that you'll report minimal if any abusive traits in the male role models you had while you were growing up)

[Phoe]

Phoe, I'm asking about your childhood environment. Was there any alcohol or drug abuse in your environment back then?

 

And, was any prominent male abusive to you during (your) childhood??

 

(although the report that one guy hit you and you never so much as looked-back, gives me confidence that you'll report minimal if any abusive traits in the male role models you had while you were growing up)

 

Nope, no childhood abuse, no bad influences. I was an odd child, but was happy.

[somedude81]

Nope, no childhood abuse, no bad influences. I was an odd child, but was happy.

 

And odd child, or just odd?

 

[Phoe]

And you also need to be more picky in who you choose to date instead of going out with any guy since you've said you had a lot of problems with your exes. But the problem with that is it would give you even less options by being more picky since you have limited options as it is.

 

This is the dilemma!

 

Being told to be more picky, but how can I afford to when my options have been so sparse as it is!?

 

It's like when men are always striking out with the girls they are approaching, and folks on this forum tell them to aim lower.

 

That's sorta what I've done.

[Els]

 

I'm kind of stunned that no one wants to even touch the looks issue. I know that NO ONE enjoys criticizing a woman's looks, but it's necessary.

 

I know that looks is the thing that deterred the single men who are friends with me. They like me as a person and think I'm fun, but aren't attracted. I'm too tall, or my nose is too big, or my ears or too big, or my lips too small, I don't wear lipstick, I don't have enough tattoos, too many tattoos, butt too small, legs too long, hair not long enough, hair needs highlights, etc.

 

There's always SOMETHING.

 

So people simply saying "you look fine", feels like a cop out. Obviously my looks need to change if men are not attracted and literally tell me so.

 

If someone tells me "you need to wear heels and dresses and do hair and makeup fully EVERYDAY" well, I'm not gonna go to that extent. But if it were something that really would help, I might find a compromise and find ways to work it into my routine.

 

I haven't touched on it because it's extremely subjective. To me, you look fine, you look just like lots of women who are in happy Rs. Not all guys need a woman to be dolled up all the time or is obsessed about her hair or makeup or heels or such. In fact, some guys prefer otherwise. Seriously, the only place I wear stiletto heels is usually the bedroom, and my guy is fine with that.

 

That's why it strikes me that the issue isn't your looks, but rather the type of men you meet and their mindset re: women's looks.

[Phoe]

I haven't touched on it because it's extremely subjective. To me, you look fine, you look just like lots of women who are in happy Rs. Not all guys need a woman to be dolled up all the time or is obsessed about her hair or makeup or heels or such. In fact, some guys prefer otherwise. Seriously, the only place I wear stiletto heels is usually the bedroom, and my guy is fine with that.

 

That's why it strikes me that the issue isn't your looks, but rather the type of men you meet and their mindset re: women's looks.

 

I suppose when people do have a strong opinion either way about how someone should look, the mixed messages just fry my brain.

 

I'll watch men I know say how they like smart, naturally pretty girls and then regularly turn around and date the sweet, but not so bright girl, who is glammed up even just to sit at home with the baby. Gotta be cute in case some selfies are taken *shrug*

 

I dunno if they're dishonest, or if they just have a distorted perception of what is natural beauty.

[xxoo]

Dating casually may be good practice, although I do question it morally... I don't want to lead a guy on if I'm dating solely with intentions of casual interactions, and I don't have sex outside of relationships, so even that wouldn't be an option. It feels like I would just be using men. Go on a date, interact with him, maybe date a few more times, then call it off. On principle. Just so that I get practice at dating.

 

Seems so wrong...

 

It's not wrong. It's a dating to see if you would choose this person for a relationship. It's normal and healthy, especially if you don't already know the person at all.

 

You should decide to date someone more seriously based on a strong connection and desire, not by default of there being nothing wrong with him.

 

I'm not sure if I missed it, but did you answer the question about what purpose a relationship would ideally serve for you?

[NJ123]

This is the dilemma!

 

Being told to be more picky, but how can I afford to when my options have been so sparse as it is!?

 

It's like when men are always striking out with the girls they are approaching, and folks on this forum tell them to aim lower.

 

That's sorta what I've done.

 

But your pretty much admitting yourself that your location is a huge part of the problem. You need to find a way to move to a more populated area, but I know you said you can't at the moment which really sucks. Do you have any friends that would be willing to move to a different area with you to split the costs of living?

[xxoo]

I posted earlier with a website showing the kinds of clothes I wear.

 

Un-fancy.com

 

I am a minimalist, with a small wardrobe that's very similar to hers, but with fewer dresses/skirts, and no heels.

 

I have no idea how men feel about those kind of clothes.

 

I dress like her. The look she's wearing on the most recent post (tights, dress, motojacket, boots) is exactly what I wore today

 

Many men like that look.

[Phoe]

I'm not sure if I missed it, but did you answer the question about what purpose a relationship would ideally serve for you?

 

I didn't answer because I didn't have anything to add besides the purposes already listed.

 

Companionship, support, future family, someone to share my life with.

 

Sexual enjoyment would be nice but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

[Phoe]

But your pretty much admitting yourself that your location is a huge part of the problem. You need to find a way to move to a more populated area, but I know you said you can't at the moment which really sucks. Do you have any friends that would be willing to move to a different area with you to split the costs of living?

 

I struggle with saying my location is a problem, because I lived in Santa barbara for 4 years and could not get a boyfriend. At all. All the boyfriends I've gotten, were while living here.

 

Yes, my options are very limited here simply due to population, but in a larger city, there's more competition, more gorgeous people, and having more competition seems to limit my options even further.

 

I didn't stand a chance in SB. Gorgeous girls everywhere you look. I walked around campus seemingly invisible for 4 years.

 

I don't think a city will do me any good. I think an area that's still pretty rural, but slightly more populated than here, would be better.

[xxoo]

I didn't answer because I didn't have anything to add besides the purposes already listed.

 

Companionship, support, future family, someone to share my life with.

 

Sexual enjoyment would be nice but I'm not gonna hold my breath.

 

Ok, well did your past relationships provide the companionship, support, future family compatibility, and sharing?

 

Sexual enjoyment is vital! And a good reason to be a bit pickier if you've never really gotten that. Be picky about how into you the guy is, as well as how into him you are. Gotta have that spark that makes you want to eat each other alive

 

It's smart to hold out for a good match, even if that means turning down a few guys and giving it time. If you really did meet your last boyfriend within a few weeks on OLD, it seems likely that you would have additional interested men if you'd turned him down after a couple dates and gave it more time.

[Phoe]

Ok, well did your past relationships provide the companionship, support, future family compatibility, and sharing?

 

Sexual enjoyment is vital! And a good reason to be a bit pickier if you've never really gotten that. Be picky about how into you the guy is, as well as how into him you are. Gotta have that spark that makes you want to eat each other alive

 

It's smart to hold out for a good match, even if that means turning down a few guys and giving it time. If you really did meet your last boyfriend within a few weeks on OLD, it seems likely that you would have additional interested men if you'd turned him down after a couple dates and gave it more time.

 

 

No they didn't provide any of that, but none of them lasted very long either. Anywhere from 1 month to 10 months. It's not like I sit around for years in these relationships. I give them a chance, then exit.

 

I think holding out for sexual pleasure is asking too much. I know everyone's gonna react badly to that, but I really have other priorities to focus on for a partner. Sexual compatibility is an afterthought.

 

The thing about "turning down a few guys", is that if I'd held out, and turned down the guys who didn't measure up to what folks think my standards should be, I'd have never dated anyone. I've been asked out 9 times.

 

If partaking in OLD, then yes, taking my time and holding out may have been preferable. Honestly though, I'd heard so many horror stories, and to immediately be contacted by someone who spoke to me politely, intelligently, and put effort into courting me, I thought WOW this is one in a million, I just got lucky!

 

So yes taking time with OLD seems logical, but when it came to IRL approaches and meeting people socially, I don't see how I could've held out. No one else was coming.

[Els]

So yes taking time with OLD seems logical, but when it came to IRL approaches and meeting people socially, I don't see how I could've held out. No one else was coming.

 

You've had 4(?) bfs, yeah? How long were you single?

[Phoe]

You've had 4(?) bfs, yeah? How long were you single?

 

What I mean by that, is that every time I got asked out, had I said no and held out for something better, I would've been dateless and single right now. No one else came along. It was only those lousy guys who ended up not treating me how I wanted. That's all the came along. No one else. I would've been holding out for nothing.

 

The first 2 boyfriends were in high school, then I was single for 6 years, then I had a boyfriend for a month, and about 9 months later met my most recent.

[somedude81]

What I mean by that, is that every time I got asked out, had I said no and held out for something better, I would've been dateless and single right now. No one else came along. It was only those lousy guys who ended up not treating me how I wanted. That's all the came along. No one else. I would've been holding out for nothing.

 

The first 2 boyfriends were in high school, then I was single for 6 years, then I had a boyfriend for a month, and about 9 months later met my most recent.

 

I'm still amazed that you manged to be single all throughout college, especially since you went to UCSB.

 

Did you actively avoid men?

[Phoe]

Did you actively avoid men?

 

Of course not. College was the time when I tried out approaching (bad!)

 

Have you SEEN the the types of girls that attend UCSB?

 

Some of the most beautiful people I have ever seen in my life. I did not stand a chance with men when there were bloody goddesses walking around everywhere!

[Els]

What I mean by that, is that every time I got asked out, had I said no and held out for something better, I would've been dateless and single right now. No one else came along. It was only those lousy guys who ended up not treating me how I wanted. That's all the came along. No one else. I would've been holding out for nothing.

 

But when you are in a relationship, you aren't available. So even if a good guy had met you and was attracted to you, chances are that when he found out you were in a R, he would move on.

 

That being said 6 years is quite a while. Could be a location issue, again.