Was this assault or not?? I feel violated yet....

[somedude81]

Yes it sounds like you were sexually assaulted.

 

Though I am concerned that you didn't try to stop him or move away when you woke up to find his hands on your body.

[lollipopspot]

What I'm saying is that he probably misread your signals, and he backed off right away. This doesn't sound like a bad guy to me.

 

Misread the signals? She was asleep when he stuck his fingers into her. What signals?

 

This man deserves no credit for stopping once caught. The kind of mind that will sexually interfere with a sleeping, trusting friend is not a pleasant one. He could have tried it on when she was awake. He didn't. He did it when she was completely defenceless, unaware and unable to protect herself. Doubtless the fact she awoke feeling a little turned on just makes matters worse for her. That is all part of the violation. She should not feel bad about that, she was not fully aware of what was happening.

 

This young lady bears no responsibility for his actions and should not be told she does.

 

Agreed.

 

He intiated while she was UNCONSCIOUS.

 

If you see being UNCONSCIOUS as being an invitation, then I think you need to serious review what the word CONSENT means.

 

THIS WAS NOT CONSENTUAL.

 

Kind of mind-blowing that this isn't obvious to anyone but a rapist.

 

I see the points you and everyone are making here and, for the most part, I agree with them. But reporting someone to the police is a very serious thing and I don't think that should be done lightly. It can turn what may have been an innocent thing into a true nightmare for a guy.

 

You want a nightmare? Try never feeling comfortable sleeping with someone in the house again because you might wake up with someone's fingers inside your butt. I have no doubt that this is traumatic for her in ways that you don't realize. Her body integrity was violated while she was sleeping.

 

Unconscious is to be in a comatose state. Sleeping is not being unconscious.

 

Are you kidding? Of course sleeping is unconscious...until you wake up.

 

Lots of bad legal advice in this thread and serious misunderstanding of U.S. sexual assault law. Most states explicitly include being asleep as a statutory incapacity that obviates consent. They have to....otherwise predators could assault sleeping victims with impunity.

 

No, the law does not call a few seconds of confusion by a waking victim, or admitted arousal of the victim, a mitigation of the offense. Rape is still a crime even if your body reacts according to instinct. A man's penis can be manipulated into an aroused state over his violent objections. Achieving that physiologic response is NOT a defense to a rape charge. (In fact, it is not unknown to torturers to perform this type of manipulation to enhance their sadistic acts, cf. A Man by Oriana Fallaci, detailing her lover's torture by the Greek secret police.) Likewise, a woman's genitalia can be manipulated while she sleeps and pleasurable arousal can be achieved. Again, vaginal secretions are NOT a defense to rape charges, although there are plenty of rapists and rape defenders who make full use of that infirm and loathsome argument.

 

Some people posting here think that 4 or 5 men sleeping in a tent on a camping trip have all implicitly consented to sexual fondling and penetration by everyone else in the tent. Frat brothers have all consented to homosexual rape (especially if they're drunk or if they freeze in confusion or fear for even a few seconds if they wake during the assault). See the problem now when a male is the victim?

 

Don't feel so sorry for the fingering predator. He could have kept his hands clean - literally. The supposed risk to poor little him of being accused of unwanted and unconsented touching - which is nothing more than the undisputed fact - is no greater than his victim's risk of being assaulted.

 

Oh by the way, don't doze off when you have guests because they can take money from your wallet and you'll be the one 100% at fault, while the thief is pitied, protected, and cosseted.

 

Yes. Can't believe some of the responses in this thread. No wonder why so many women are violated and don't come forward. They'll be blamed for it. No wonder why so many guys rape. They mostly get a pass. (The reverse gender doesn't usually happen, but it does sometimes, as written in this thread, and same goes for that situation).

 

My wish is that apologists and rapists would find each other, stick each others' fingers and penises and whatever else inside each others' a**es and vaginas and whatever else while you're sleeping or passed out or wearing tight clothes - and leave everyone who doesn't want to be violated alone. Have at it guys, just leave other people alone who don't actively tell you that they want you to stick some part of your body in theirs.

Edited November 9, 2014 by lollipopspot

[gaius]

My wish is that apologists and rapists would find each other, stick each others' fingers and penises and whatever else inside each others' a**es and vaginas and whatever else while you're sleeping or passed out or wearing tight clothes - and leave everyone who doesn't want to be violated alone. Have at it guys, just leave other people alone who don't actively tell you that they want you to stick some part of your body in theirs.

That's nice, wishing a rape victim who actually said no and still got it gets raped again because she doesn't tote the party line. =/

 

The vibe I got in this case was that petite seems to be more upset that he lied about it than anything else. She's apparently still talking to him and not taking any of the simple steps she could to get rid of him completely if she had discomfort issues now. Like telling her brother. So I somehow doubt she's waking up in cold sweats from what happened.

 

I just hope you take time to sort through your feelings about this petite. Don't let anyone define how you should feel about it, or decide what you should do for you.

[Snaggletooth]

That's nice, wishing a rape victim who actually said no and still got it gets raped again because she doesn't tote the party line. =/

 

The vibe I got in this case was that petite seems to be more upset that he lied about it than anything else. She's apparently still talking to him and not taking any of the simple steps she could to get rid of him completely if she had discomfort issues now. Like telling her brother. So I somehow doubt she's waking up in cold sweats from what happened.

 

I just hope you take time to sort through your feelings about this petite. Don't let anyone define how you should feel about it, or decide what you should do for you.

 

 

That is why people are responding, to counter the posters telling her she must blame herself or accept responsibility for a man sexually interfering with her while she sleeps.

 

Your vibes and doubts belong to you, they are not to be placed upon the victim to cause self doubt. She is seeking clarity. This man crossed a serious line and breached a serious trust while she slept. That's the bottom line. That's the fact. How Petite's sleeping, semi awake and awake body and mind reacted to that, and continues to react to that, is not up for judgement or criticism.

[bathtub-row]

Repeating this in case it sinks in at some point: I would never say that there's a reason for anyone to do anything that's in violation of another's body. What I'm saying is that there are too many variables in this situation and she simply cannot be sure what happened.

 

There's also the side issue here about doing things that are just plain not smart. I'm not trying to beat up the OP, I just hope she thinks about this in the future. I personally have always been aware that if I cuddle up under the covers with a guy and rub my body or butt against him in my sleep, I'm inviting trouble. I'm not saying it's justified, I'm saying I know better and I have always known better. If this were my daughter, I would say the same thing to her.

 

This is not about making a woman afraid to come forward. You're all taking these comments way too far. She simply does not know what actually happened, and the guy has clammed up. Maybe he is an ass and maybe he took full advantage but she'll never know the facts, unless there was an eye-witness or a camera running at the time. Since she's not 100% sure, I say it's a gray area and that's the ONLY reason I say that. As someone else stated, this story would most likely not hold up in court. There's a reason for that. It's a very serious thing to accuse someone of sexual assault. If it's justified, then I say go for it. Don't even hesitate. But if you're not really sure what happened, then I would talk to the guy about it, about how it made me feel, and then chalk it up to experience.

Edited November 9, 2014 by bathtub-row

[anna121]

It might depend on the jurisdiction but I would reject a blanket "this would never stand up in court". I can tell you that in many places including where I live the initial touching and digital penetration while she was asleep would be non-consensual, period.

 

It always depends on the judge but I can think of plenty who I know personally who would not be impressed with what he did.

[Snaggletooth]

Repeating this in case it sinks in at some point: I would never say that there's a reason for anyone to do anything that's in violation of another's body. What I'm saying is that there are too many variables in this situation and she simply cannot be sure what happened.

 

There's also the side issue here about doing things that are just plain not smart. I'm not trying to beat up the OP, I just hope she thinks about this in the future. I personally have always been aware that if I cuddle up under the covers with a guy and rub my body or butt against him in my sleep, I'm inviting trouble. I'm not saying it's justified, I'm saying I know better and I have always known better. If this were my daughter, I would say the same thing to her.

 

This is not about making a woman afraid to come forward. You're all taking these comments way too far. She simply does not know what actually happened, and the guy has clammed up. Maybe he is an ass and maybe he took full advantage but she'll never know the facts, unless there was an eye-witness or a camera running at the time. Since she's not 100% sure, I say it's a gray area and that's the ONLY reason I say that. As someone else stated, this story would most likely not hold up in court. There's a reason for that. It's a very serious thing to accuse someone of sexual assault. If it's justified, then I say go for it. Don't even hesitate. But if you're not really sure what happened, then I would talk to the guy about it, about how it made me feel, and then chalk it up to experience.

 

It will not sink in because people are dealing with what has been presented in front of them. That is what exists. Suggestions and thoughts of cuddling and bum rubbing are yours. Doubts and vibes belong to others. What may or may not stand up in court bears not at all on what happened.

 

As presented, the OP has been violated and bears no responsibility for his actions. This woman was interfered with in her sleep without consent. The rest is in the imagination of the posters responding, it does not belong to her.

[SoleMate]

What I'm saying is that there are too many variables in this situation and she simply cannot be sure what happened.

You're attempting to introduce uncertainty in a case that as reported, is quite clear. She IS sure what happened as to the major facts....she was mostly asleep, never gave active consent, and did not want the contact.

 

I see you normalizing male-on-female sexual predation and waving a flag of "uncertainty". Again, frat brothers, Boy Scout campers, me emptying your wallet....none of that would get normalized and signed off on. "Maybe Timmy was giving off 'signals' to little Bobby during the marshmallow roast....it's a serious matter to accuse Bobby and it wouldn't hold up in court.......although I'm not saying what Bobby did was great, still, Timmy is primarily at fault for the fact that Bobby fellated him in his sleep, Timmy was "just plain not smart" and should learn from this! Timmy should 'talk to Bobby about how that made him feel' and then "chalk it up to experience". Bobby was just 'working off Timmy's cues'. " etc.

 

my rapeist wasent nice enough to "stop when I tried to pullaway" ...mine was a date rape when I was young and while he was wrong for not stoping when I said stop. I was also wrong in many ways for letting myself get into that situation so yes if my daughter came home with a story like this I would also question it why cause I speak from first hand experience..

That's horrible and I am very sorry you were victimized. The fact that the rapist in your case was violent and more aggressive than the one in this case doesn't flip the switch from culpable (your case) to non-culpable (here). There are degrees of aggravation and based on your account, yours was certainly higher. Once again, if I take someone's wallet from his pocket while he sleeps, it's robbery even though I don't also punch him in the face.

[SoleMate]

It's a very serious thing to accuse someone of sexual assault. If it's justified, then I say go for it.

Hmm, mixed message. Committing sexual assault is also very serious.

 

Don't even hesitate [to report].

If I were OP and I took comments like yours and others in this thread to heart (which I hope OP doesn't), then I would be very hesitant to report.

[whichwayisup]

It can turn what may have been an innocent thing into a true nightmare for a guy.

 

How is it innocent? She was sleeping and he touched her, fingered her WITHOUT asking. And then the next day fluffed it off as he was drunk, no big deal and to forget about it. He isn't her boyfriend, they never have kissed or fooled around. Her brother was right there too.

[lollipopspot]

A defence lawyer?s advice to his daughters, after Jian Ghomeshi | Toronto Star

[lollipopspot]

What I'm saying is that there are too many variables in this situation and she simply cannot be sure what happened.

 

She does know what happened. She was asleep and woke up with a guy's fingers inside her.

 

There's also the side issue here about doing things that are just plain not smart. I'm not trying to beat up the OP, I just hope she thinks about this in the future. I personally have always been aware that if I cuddle up under the covers with a guy and rub my body or butt against him in my sleep, I'm inviting trouble.

 

She never said anything about rubbing her butt against him. Why are you imagining it?

 

Anyway, since when would it be o.k. to assault someone who's "not smart" (which there's no indication that OP was "not smart" as you are describing)? And I don't see how this poster invited trouble. She fell asleep watching tv with her brother in the room.

 

This is not about making a woman afraid to come forward.

 

Sure it is. That's exactly the effect.

 

She simply does not know what actually happened

 

Yes she does. She woke up with a guy's fingers inside her. That's the sexual assault part.

 

maybe he took full advantage but she'll never know the facts

 

"Maybe?" If she's reporting this accurately - which is all you and I have to go on - then the facts are not "maybe" but he did in fact take advantage.

 

It's a very serious thing to accuse someone of sexual assault.

 

Since he stuck his fingers in her while she was sleeping, he sexually assaulted her. Why do you want to protect him?

Edited November 9, 2014 by lollipopspot

[CrystalCastles]

It's a very serious thing to accuse someone of sexual assault.

 

Yeah, but if the guy in question didn't want to be put in the position of being accused of sexual assault, then maybe he shouldn't have gone sticking his fingers up people's vaginas.

 

Sleeping next to a person doesn't give you the right to act on your urges. It baffles me how people can so easily defend the sick pervert in question.

[bathtub-row]

Yeah, but if the guy in question didn't want to be put in the position of being accused of sexual assault, then maybe he shouldn't have gone sticking his fingers up people's vaginas.

 

Sleeping next to a person doesn't give you the right to act on your urges. It baffles me how people can so easily defend the sick pervert in question.

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing - defending a pervert. This girl said that she was enjoying what he was doing so there is that possibility that they had kissed, etc. Who the heck knows?? And that's exactly the problem. She doesn't know for sure if she gave strong signals or even her consent for making out. She kept waking up so I can totally see how things could've been misinterpreted by him. What I'm actually trying to defend is a potentially innocent guy.

[whichwayisup]

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing - defending a pervert. This girl said that she was enjoying what he was doing so there is that possibility that they had kissed, etc. Who the heck knows?? And that's exactly the problem. She doesn't know for sure if she gave strong signals or even her consent for making out. She kept waking up so I can totally see how things could've been misinterpreted by him. What I'm actually trying to defend is a potentially innocent guy.

 

She did NOT give him permission to touch her. She was SLEEPING. There's NO consent. None.

 

They are not dating, not a couple. And please, stop putting your own spin on it. She did not kiss him. Nowhere in her posts did she say that.

 

Read her opening post again. Please stop blaming her.

[CrystalCastles]

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing - defending a pervert. This girl said that she was enjoying what he was doing so there is that possibility that they had kissed, etc. Who the heck knows?? And that's exactly the problem. She doesn't know for sure if she gave strong signals or even her consent for making out. She kept waking up so I can totally see how things could've been misinterpreted by him. What I'm actually trying to defend is a potentially innocent guy.

 

She never said she kissed him so I don't know what you're reading.

 

They're NOT in an established relationship. They're NOT dating. They are friends, which the OP has said in her first post. There was no romance or feelings established prior. What he did was not at all innocent and was completely out of line.

[bathtub-row]

She did NOT give him permission to touch her. She was SLEEPING. There's NO consent. None.

 

They are not dating, not a couple. And please, stop putting your own spin on it. She did not kiss him. Nowhere in her posts did she say that.

 

Read her opening post again. Please stop blaming her.

 

This is not about blaming her. This is about not convicting someone when there's a possibility of innocence. The fact that she kept waking up tells me that something could've transpired that she may not recall. That's all I'm saying. If she's completely sure that he took advantage of her then, by all means, report the guy.

[whichwayisup]

This is not about blaming her. This is about not convicting someone when there's a possibility of innocence. The fact that she kept waking up tells me that something could've transpired that she may not recall. That's all I'm saying. If she's completely sure that he took advantage of her then, by all means, report the guy.

 

She IS sure. What she is UNSURE about is the fact that she while she was half asleep she didn't tell him to stop. She is scared of being judged, to be told she brought it on, that she allowed it to happen making her fault. NONE of this is her fault. She was sleeping and this scumbag decided to help himself, touch and rub her body. Without permission. Then the next day he was a di.ck to her.

 

I see a victim here, not someone who couldn't remember if she was kissed or not. She felt violated, which she said in her post.

 

Petite, DO tell your brother, tell your parents too. Online help is helpful but you need to talk to those who are closest to you to offer you the best kind of support that you need. Don't let anybody here make you feel like you brought this on yourself. You DIDN'T. That guy clearly has issues and has no respect for women, let alone personal boundaries.

[TigerLilly78]

She does know what happened. She was asleep and woke up with a guy's fingers inside her.

 

 

Since he stuck his fingers in her while she was sleeping, he sexually assaulted her. Why do you want to protect him?

 

She dident wake up to find his fingers inside her at 1st she woke up as it seams from her own words many times to find him pretty much petting her the fingering happned after she did nothing to stop what was going on people are not getting the facts as the OP herself has said them right...

 

 

Yeah, but if the guy in question didn't want to be put in the position of being accused of sexual assault, then maybe he shouldn't have gone sticking his fingers up people's vaginas.

 

 

Again he started off by petting and it sounds like general foreplay the OP was ether into it or to intoxicated to stop him ether way that was her part in this the point were she had the control to say hey stop it but she chose not to the guy from the sounds of it went off that and continued..when she did choose to say stop it he did immediately..

 

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing - defending a pervert. This girl said that she was enjoying what he was doing so there is that possibility that they had kissed, etc. Who the heck knows?? And that's exactly the problem. She doesn't know for sure if she gave strong signals or even her consent for making out. She kept waking up so I can totally see how things could've been misinterpreted by him. What I'm actually trying to defend is a potentially innocent guy.

 

 

bathtub I see your points and I see this situation objectively because well as ive stated ive been there but it seams im being told im just projecting or judging this situation wrongly cause I do unfortunately have the experience of dealing with a genuine rape go figure.

 

So believe me I see both sides to the story and I know how a women can put herself into these kinds of situations and I also know we are not always 110% snow white innocent as some would say! there must be some level of personal responsibility taken thats just a fact of life course this isn't the popular opinion here but to me its a valid one..im not saying genuine assault is right or rape of course not but these things can often be prevented in the 1st place...

 

At this point what me and you and anyone else like minded says is clearly falling on deaf ears. Like I said in the race to help a victim any victim stuff like this can and has become a witch hunt. I do wonder tho since we keep hearing the "if this was your daughter" scenario if that was flipped and this was some of the others SON how much of a creep would he then be or would they then be more open to at least just wanting to hear both sides of the story before sending him to prison just about..

 

The OP got lucky and her situation ended very differently to mine the boy stopped soon as she choose to make it clear she was no longer interested in what was happening. That plus just how she describes it makes me think that things were more mutual then she cared to admit and she ended up maybe feeling bad or ashamed afterwards.

 

Now fast forward the next day and add in the fact he dident apoligise the next morning or dident act how the OP would have liked? and I do belive we have some hurt feelings tossed into the mix as well go figure again.. he def should have been more apologetic imo or at the least spoken more in private with the OP to help clear things up but again that doesn't constitute sending him to prison..

 

Im not trying to bash her and she deserves all the support she feels she needs but IF things did go this way then it was no more then a few drunk friends who took things a little to far and had regrets the next day imo anyways.

 

Every ones glazeing over the huge fact HE STOPPED immediately when she said no that to me means he would have also stopped before things got to that point he didn't because she didn't tell him to thats not sexual assault im sorry she could have stopped things at any time...

[bathtub-row]

She dident wake up to find his fingers inside her at 1st she woke up as it seams from her own words many times to find him pretty much petting her the fingering happned after she did nothing to stop what was going on people are not getting the facts as the OP herself has said them right...

 

Again he started off by petting and it sounds like general foreplay the OP was ether into it or to intoxicated to stop him ether way that was her part in this the point were she had the control to say hey stop it but she chose not to the guy from the sounds of it went off that and continued..when she did choose to say stop it he did immediately..

 

 

bathtub I see your points and I see this situation objectively because well as ive stated ive been there but it seams im being told im just projecting or judging this situation wrongly cause I do unfortunately have the experience of dealing with a genuine rape go figure.

 

So believe me I see both sides to the story and I know how a women can put herself into these kinds of situations and I also know we are not always 110% snow white innocent as some would say! there must be some level of personal responsibility taken thats just a fact of life course this isn't the popular opinion here but to me its a valid one..im not saying genuine assault is right or rape of course not but these things can often be prevented in the 1st place...

 

At this point what me and you and anyone else like minded says is clearly falling on deaf ears. Like I said in the race to help a victim any victim stuff like this can and has become a witch hunt. I do wonder tho since we keep hearing the "if this was your daughter" scenario if that was flipped and this was some of the others SON how much of a creep would he then be or would they then be more open to at least just wanting to hear both sides of the story before sending him to prison just about..

 

The OP got lucky and her situation ended very differently to mine the boy stopped soon as she choose to make it clear she was no longer interested in what was happening. That plus just how she describes it makes me think that things were more mutual then she cared to admit and she ended up maybe feeling bad or ashamed afterwards.

 

Now fast forward the next day and add in the fact he dident apoligise the next morning or dident act how the OP would have liked? and I do belive we have some hurt feelings tossed into the mix as well go figure again.. he def should have been more apologetic imo or at the least spoken more in private with the OP to help clear things up but again that doesn't constitute sending him to prison..

 

Im not trying to bash her and she deserves all the support she feels she needs but IF things did go this way then it was no more then a few drunk friends who took things a little to far and had regrets the next day imo anyways.

 

Every ones glazeing over the huge fact HE STOPPED immediately when she said no that to me means he would have also stopped before things got to that point he didn't because she didn't tell him to thats not sexual assault im sorry she could have stopped things at any time...

 

We're completely on the same page. Thank you for not making me feel like the Lone Ranger here. Sometimes I think rational, unbiased thought has gone out the window. I do know that if this were my daughter or son, I'd say the same thing. This is not a black-and-white situation and ruining a young man's life over something like this is a pretty serious thing to do. The OP also described him as a really nice guy, etc. There's just something not right here. As I said before, if she's 100% certain that he completely took advantage of her, that's fine. If she's not; if there's any doubt in her mind, then that's another matter.

 

Btw, Tiger, I'm really sorry to hear that you have experience with rape. That's very sad.

[SoleMate]

She doesn't know for sure if she gave.....her consent for making out.

Ha ha funny how badly you twisted the facts there. Yes, she does know she did not give consent.

 

If she's completely sure that he took advantage of her then, by all means, report the guy.

That's horrible advice you're giving the OP. She has every right to make a factual report to the police, to the best of her ability, of any reasonable suspicion that a crime was committed. There is NOT a standard of "must be sure beyond a reasonable doubt" before reporting. You're simply wrong if you think that's the law anywhere in the US. A reasonable good faith concern that a crime may have been committed is ALL that is necessary according to law, ethics, and morality.

 

OTOH, maybe you think that when a female suspects sexual assault, a skyhigh standard of proof should be applied before even a police report is allowed. That may be your view of the best way to balance the risk of sexual assault vs. the risk of opportunistic penetrators of the unconscious getting asked a few awkward questions. Fine, we now know how you personally balance those risks. The legislatures of the 50 U.S. states don't agree.

 

OP, again I urge you to seek sexual assault counselling promptly so you will have access to correct facts and trustworthy guidance.

 

Last thought for everyone: There's a man out there who thinks he can penetrate an unconscious woman without penalty (and even a small cheering squad protecting him and his right to unfettered pursuit of his hobby). Feeling good about that? Who's next? How will she get chosen and who do you think deserves this?

[SoleMate]

...ruining a young man's life over something like this is a pretty serious thing to do....

So, your point is that a factual account of the night being given to the police would constitute ruining the young man's life? But why? Has he done something wrong?

[gaius]

So, your point is that a factual account of the night being given to the police would constitute ruining the young man's life? But why? Has he done something wrong?

Why are you so intent on turning her into a victim if she decides she doesn't want to be one? And if I wake up and feel someone taking my wallet out of my pocket and don't stop them because it feels so good it would be pretty bogus to report them to the cops for robbery. =/ I might even be wracked with guilt over getting them in so much trouble when they didn't do something that warranted it.

 

One of my favorite female writers wrote an essay on this exact conflict in women but she can't get it published by her normal publishers because it's not something we can apparently discuss honestly as a society yet.

[gaius]

Kind of funny this thread's going on at the exact same time. A girl who's upset the guy didn't do exactly what this guy did when they were together in bed.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/499924-slept-his-bed-he-did-nothing-he-just-not-interested

[lollipopspot]

Kind of funny this thread's going on at the exact same time. A girl who's upset the guy didn't do exactly what this guy did when they were together in bed.

 

Uh no, that's not the same situation at all.

 

Scary that anyone thinks it is.