The Ups and Downs

[darkbloom]

Thanks everyone. The good news is that I spent last evening with my daughter, and just sitting on the couch with her, putting my arm around her, talking and watching television, I felt 100 percent better. Five minutes into that, I forgot all about my bad feelings. The troubling thing is that spending time with her is one of the very few things that make me feel really good, and I still worry that my wife is going to take her away from me and move across the country or the world, which would leave me in a very bad state. That's something I have no control over, but for now things are better. Thanks for all of your good thoughts and advice.

 

I would do/say/fight as much as you can to keep her near you or to get her legally adopted as yours. As much for your sake as your daughters.

 

If your ex decides to move across the country with her, your daughter will be devastated.

[kenmore]

I would do/say/fight as much as you can to keep her near you or to get her legally adopted as yours. As much for your sake as your daughters.

 

If your ex decides to move across the country with her, your daughter will be devastated.

 

While I like your sentiment DB, and of course you're right, if his ex is anything like mine (and since she left him, she probably is), there is no way in Hell she would give partial custody to him. Unfortunately that bird has flown. In fact, I wanted to adopt my SD when we got married, my wife said no way! She was her daughter and she would not allow me to have any power...kinda the story of our marriage.

 

Ken

[Esraem]

Wow Kenmore, That should have been a major red flag right there.

[darkbloom]

His wife doesn't sound like a bad person. She sounds like she's super insecure and flighty.

 

I was a good kid as a teenager. My parents were always fighting though and my home situation was always on a precarious edge. At 13, if my mom moved me across the country away from my dad I would have been devastated. I already struggled with them divorcing and fighting. Missing one of them would have been too much.

 

I don't care if biologically she's not his. His wife can decide she doesn't want to be married anymore to KB. She can't decide that he doesn't get a role and a say in that child's life. To her, that is her dad.

[kenmore]

His wife can decide she doesn't want to be married anymore to KB. She can't decide that he doesn't get a role and a say in that child's life. To her, that is her dad.

 

Unfortunately, yes she can.

 

Ken

[KBarletta]

Unfortunately, yes she can.

 

Ken

 

She can, because at the moment I have no legal status. My wife can do pretty much anything she wants. But ultimately that would not be in her best interests, because her daughter would hold it against her if she was unable to see me, and my wife's relationship with her would suffer as a result.

 

However, I also have had my attorney include an agreement in our divorce papers that establishes me as a co-parent and grants me visitation rights and custody in the event something happens to my wife. If she signs that (I won't sign our papers unless she agrees to that, which if she doesn't would force her to wait two years for a final decree - something I know she doesn't want) then I would at least be able to force her to get a court order and prove that it's in my daughter's best interests if she wanted to leave the state permanently.

 

My daughter is soon to be 14. That means that - worst case scenario my wife decides not to sign the papers and we have to wait two years for a divorce - then by then my daughter will be 16. Only two years after that she will be an adult who can legally make up her own mind where she wants to live. And she will always - always - have a home wherever I am, and I've already told her this.

 

So the situation is not totally bleak for me. It's sad that it has come to this because I still think of the three of us as a family. But I have to deal with reality.

 

KTB

[kenmore]

I hear you and feel for you KB, but unless the laws are different where you are, the reality is she's not your daughter. You said she's not your blood daughter and you never adopted her. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how anyone can legally force a mom to "share" her daughter with anyone she does not want to; and since you two are divorcing and she's even talking about moving across the country, somehow I doubt she wants to.

 

Attorneys will paint a pretty picture. They will file movements and try to do what their clients want. They will be happy to move in any direction. Will it work? in this case, all I can say is good luck.

 

Again, I'm looking at it from my own perspective since it's the only one I have. I can imagine others but I find it very difficult to imagine a woman who wants to divorce a man, giving him legal power over her daughter. Here in Ca. a 14 yr old child is in the custody of their parent, parents or guardian and nobody can just say "you have to share them". Not unless there is some doubt about their ability to parent, and even then the custody would likely go elsewhere, not to you.

 

All I am saying is don't get your hopes up too high about this. I can't see a good outcome for you, KB, as much as I would like to. In fact, doing what you are suggesting which is strong-arming her, will most likely cause her to just say you can not see her at all until she turns 18. Again, house rules after that (if she's still living with mom after 18, mom can forbid it based upon the "living under my roof" clause.)

 

Do let me know if I'm off base for some reason, or otherwise let me know how it goes. I am pulling for you, but I don't want you to build up a big bubble only to have it burst.

 

Ken

[kenmore]

Wow Kenmore, That should have been a major red flag right there.

 

I'm not so sure about that Esraem. True I would have liked it and also true that if my wife had no doubts about us being together for the rest of our lives it would make sense, but her daughter already had a father who would do things with her and send her things, so adding me as her new father was not necessarily the right thing to do.

 

At the time (when we were first married) perhaps it was too big of a step for her. I can see that, since she was raising her daughter alone for ten years already. Even her blood father is not on the birth certificate and has no legal custody. Now, he's still in the picture and I'm not.

 

Yeah, I think she knew it would be like this all along and it probably was a huge red flag, but back then, I don't know that it could have been seen as such. Now that I lost seven years with her, I know what to look for. I wonder what the next thing I should be looking for is?

 

Ken

[Lion Heart]

His wife doesn't sound like a bad person. She sounds like she's super insecure and flighty.

 

I was a good kid as a teenager. My parents were always fighting though and my home situation was always on a precarious edge. At 13, if my mom moved me across the country away from my dad I would have been devastated. I already struggled with them divorcing and fighting. Missing one of them would have been too much.

 

I don't care if biologically she's not his. His wife can decide she doesn't want to be married anymore to KB. She can't decide that he doesn't get a role and a say in that child's life. To her, that is her dad.

 

KB (and Kenmore t/j sorry!)

I've read through almost your entire thread and responded on other threads to you. I really am so shocked about this whole father / daughter relationship. I am determined to understand my own family dynamics more because of your plight and the plight of Kenmore. TBH I cannot for 1 nano second understand your ex wives at all.

 

How could these women WANT to do this? Even if they thought ONLY of their daughters, then they couldn't take YOU GUYS out of their lives. Their must be some major spite there or as I've seen you describe, there is obvious signs of needing to control both you and their daughters.

 

I'm very sad at reading about this for you both. Really. I'm taking this as a very MAJOR lesson for me. My WH is my eldest daughter's step father. She's never called him dad, well only for a while because his twins started calling him his Christian name too, instead of "dad". So she called him dad for a year until they "got it".

 

On our Wedding Day my H gave my D a ring to her to symbolize his commitment to her as well as me. She was 9yo. Known him since 7yo.

 

D is 22yo now and WH affair has devastated her too. So much that her initial reaction over the phone was her vomiting, so she had to end the call. She has a baby son.

 

The reconciliation was so bad, so rocky, so horrible for me that I made him leave 3d ago. I am guilty of threatening ONCE, months ago, due to D complete anger at WH, that he was never to contact that family again. He cried. I changed my mind! Last week our grandson said "Poppy", WH heard him say it last night and he cried again. I can't do that to him. And HE WAS WAYWARD! I am devastated FOR you guys.

 

He was such a beautiful dad and grandfather. I couldn't believe he'd do this to his family. HIS family.

 

I just have no idea how I'm gonna handle WH appearance at family events if this separation leads to D (as of today we've discussed reconciliation whilst separated & agree to try that - whatever "that" is!). And I only mean seeing exWH at family events WITH his new partner. Urrrghh. He's gorgeous in my eyes so it wouldn't take him long to get a gf IMO. Seeing him with OW would be difficult in the extreme for me.

BUT I'd always want him part of special occasions IF he wanted to attend, not just for my children (I'd secretly do it for him too).

 

MY POINT IS THIS (sorry it takes me a while): WHY don't people understand love? Sure love is work plus courage but it does also mean suffering at times. I'm afraid that I'd suffer for my children (as in seeing exWH at events and knowing he'd probably bring a gf or new W!). Oh well, I just think I'd have to woman up.

 

I did this for exWH number 1. I took D to her stepmother's baby shower because they'd invited ME TOO! Yikes! I went. Held my head high and was happy for my exH. It was another 3y before I met my present H. I was single at the time.

 

Some people are SO selfish, SO weak, SO mean. How could they make their children miserable. That's not love. IMHO they're not loving their children deeply enough to see things from THEIR perspective for a change.

 

I'm sorry for your pain guys. More power to you for your love.

 

Lion Heart.

[KBarletta]

I hear you and feel for you KB, but unless the laws are different where you are, the reality is she's not your daughter. You said she's not your blood daughter and you never adopted her. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see how anyone can legally force a mom to "share" her daughter with anyone she does not want to; and since you two are divorcing and she's even talking about moving across the country, somehow I doubt she wants to.

 

Attorneys will paint a pretty picture. They will file movements and try to do what their clients want. They will be happy to move in any direction. Will it work? in this case, all I can say is good luck.

 

Again, I'm looking at it from my own perspective since it's the only one I have. I can imagine others but I find it very difficult to imagine a woman who wants to divorce a man, giving him legal power over her daughter. Here in Ca. a 14 yr old child is in the custody of their parent, parents or guardian and nobody can just say "you have to share them". Not unless there is some doubt about their ability to parent, and even then the custody would likely go elsewhere, not to you.

 

All I am saying is don't get your hopes up too high about this. I can't see a good outcome for you, KB, as much as I would like to. In fact, doing what you are suggesting which is strong-arming her, will most likely cause her to just say you can not see her at all until she turns 18. Again, house rules after that (if she's still living with mom after 18, mom can forbid it based upon the "living under my roof" clause.)

 

Do let me know if I'm off base for some reason, or otherwise let me know how it goes. I am pulling for you, but I don't want you to build up a big bubble only to have it burst.

 

Ken

 

 

Well, Ken, I do have two things working in my favor, legally:

 

1. I have been "in loco parentis" for nine of her 13 years, which means I have been acting as her father in every sense except biologically for about as long as she can remember. This gives me some legal standing. All I need to do is prove this, which is actually simple. One way to do that is to use her school records. On every one of them, from the time she started school, I have been listed as her father, we have shared an address, and I have been authorized to make parental decisions.

 

2. There is nobody else who ever has filled that role in her life. If there were anyone else who could make similar claims, I would have a harder time proving the above. But there is nobody. Her biological father never even met her and is not listed on her birth certificate.

 

I'm not really trying to strong-arm so much, just trying to memorialize in writing the situation we've lived under for the past six months, which is what we agreed to when we separated. I am not trying to change anything. I just feel like I am losing so much of my life and just trying to hang on to what I can and using any means at my disposal to do so.

[KBarletta]

Not to change the subject, but I wanted to share a story that happened over the weekend. I attended a concert with some friends at an outdoor venue near where I live. After a few drinks, later on that evening I bumped into my wife's sister and her husband. These two were the two closest family members of my wife's to me. In particular, my brother in law and I got along great, attended sporting events together, went on road trips, concerts, etc.

 

I said hello to them and they both gave me big, warm hugs and asked how I was doing. In retrospect, I probably should have told them I was doing great and loving life. But I didn't. Instead, I was a little too honest. I told them I was hurting and that I really missed my wife. They hugged me again and told me they thought of me often and they missed me. It was a sad moment, but was also good to see them and to know that they hold no bad feelings toward me (quite the opposite, in fact). I suspect that what I said will get back to my wife, but if she holds true to her usual form, she likely will say nothing to me about it whatsoever.

[Mr. Lucky]

Not to change the subject, but I wanted to share a story that happened over the weekend. I attended a concert with some friends at an outdoor venue near where I live. After a few drinks, later on that evening I bumped into my wife's sister and her husband. These two were the two closest family members of my wife's to me. In particular, my brother in law and I got along great, attended sporting events together, went on road trips, concerts, etc.

 

Do you think your STBX has forced them to choose sides and put them on family NC?

 

If not, no reason why you couldn't maintain your relationship with them and him in particular. I was close to my MIL, we continued to exchange cards, etc until she passed...

 

Mr. Lucky

[KBarletta]

Do you think your STBX has forced them to choose sides and put them on family NC?

 

I suspect that has happened, yes. I was in contact with him briefly a few months ago, and my BIL had to hide from his wife the fact that he was texting me. I don't think maintaining a close relationship with them or with him would be healthy for me at this point because it filled me with so much emotion to just be around them for five minutes. Also, they are not shy about their affection for me, or their opinion that my wife made a mistake by leaving. I wouldn't be able to take much of that kind of talk.

 

Maybe at some point down the road, but the fact is that they spend so much time with my wife and I doubt it would be able to work.

[Esraem]

I know it will be hard to stay in contact with my BIL. Even if we were close friends before I dated and married his sister.

[KBarletta]

I know it will be hard to stay in contact with my BIL. Even if we were close friends before I dated and married his sister.

 

I was actually surprised at how emotional my reaction was to seeing my ILs. If nothing else, it made me realize that I am not ready to have a face to face with my wife. Still too emotional, even six months in. I will keep working on me.

 

Had a therapy session today where I talked about this and counselor has encouraged me to get to the point where I can sit down with my wife and discuss the future in an unemotional, realistic conversation. Not there yet, unfortunately.

 

I do really miss the bond with my inlaws. They are fun people who care about me - I wasn't sure that was true until the other day. Now, it makes me even sadder to have lost that connection for the most part.

[chew123]

KB,

 

I am divorced and still have trouble at least half the time with the unemotional face to face. We will get there in time.

 

Sorry about you losing the in-law relationship. Unfortunetly in my opinion they have no choice. However i am sure they still care about you.

[KBarletta]

KB,

 

I am divorced and still have trouble at least half the time with the unemotional face to face. We will get there in time.

 

Sorry about you losing the in-law relationship. Unfortunately in my opinion they have no choice. However i am sure they still care about you.

 

Funny thing is, chew, the same day I ran into my in laws, my long-ago ex girlfriend (who I considered the love of my life and who was the only person with whom I had an emotional connection anything like what I had with my wife) got married. I felt nothing. No, strike that, I felt happy for her.

 

I am not sure I will ever get to that point with my wife, where I feel happy to see her happy with someone else. But I never thought I would with my ExGF either, and I did. So that gave me a little hope.

[kenmore]

My wife has either asked her family and friends to not talk to me or they are doing it of their own accord. It's kinda painful too. I thought I was pretty close to them as well, but everything turned out to be illusion. Even when my wife told me we would have to separate (in the middle of a two week long vacation of all times), we were with some of her family and they treated me like one of their own. We went on excursions together, had dinner every night (I ran across her sister and her husband one morning at breakfast so joined them) and it all felt like family. That was last June. This Christmas I emailed everyone in her family a Christmas greeting and was completely ignored.

 

I never see my first wife's family either, but that may be different. I think their family is big, so they may have been looking for people to dump, also seeing me may have been painful for them since she died and it probably triggered a memory. Chew, my first wife's brother was my best friend growing up. I met her through him. When she was alive, her family invited us both to everything they did as a group. After she died, it seemed for awhile like they were going to continue, but it slowly stopped. I do take on some blame though, since I turned down some invitations because it was painful for me too.

 

Ken

[kenmore]

KB (and Kenmore t/j sorry!)

I've read through almost your entire thread and responded on other threads to you. I really am so shocked about this whole father / daughter relationship. I am determined to understand my own family dynamics more because of your plight and the plight of Kenmore. TBH I cannot for 1 nano second understand your ex wives at all.

 

How could these women WANT to do this? Even if they thought ONLY of their daughters, then they couldn't take YOU GUYS out of their lives. Their must be some major spite there or as I've seen you describe, there is obvious signs of needing to control both you and their daughters.

 

I'm very sad at reading about this for you both. Really. I'm taking this as a very MAJOR lesson for me. My WH is my eldest daughter's step father. She's never called him dad, well only for a while because his twins started calling him his Christian name too, instead of "dad". So she called him dad for a year until they "got it".

 

On our Wedding Day my H gave my D a ring to her to symbolize his commitment to her as well as me. She was 9yo. Known him since 7yo.

 

D is 22yo now and WH affair has devastated her too. So much that her initial reaction over the phone was her vomiting, so she had to end the call. She has a baby son.

 

The reconciliation was so bad, so rocky, so horrible for me that I made him leave 3d ago. I am guilty of threatening ONCE, months ago, due to D complete anger at WH, that he was never to contact that family again. He cried. I changed my mind! Last week our grandson said "Poppy", WH heard him say it last night and he cried again. I can't do that to him. And HE WAS WAYWARD! I am devastated FOR you guys.

 

He was such a beautiful dad and grandfather. I couldn't believe he'd do this to his family. HIS family.

 

I just have no idea how I'm gonna handle WH appearance at family events if this separation leads to D (as of today we've discussed reconciliation whilst separated & agree to try that - whatever "that" is!). And I only mean seeing exWH at family events WITH his new partner. Urrrghh. He's gorgeous in my eyes so it wouldn't take him long to get a gf IMO. Seeing him with OW would be difficult in the extreme for me.

BUT I'd always want him part of special occasions IF he wanted to attend, not just for my children (I'd secretly do it for him too).

 

MY POINT IS THIS (sorry it takes me a while): WHY don't people understand love? Sure love is work plus courage but it does also mean suffering at times. I'm afraid that I'd suffer for my children (as in seeing exWH at events and knowing he'd probably bring a gf or new W!). Oh well, I just think I'd have to woman up.

 

I did this for exWH number 1. I took D to her stepmother's baby shower because they'd invited ME TOO! Yikes! I went. Held my head high and was happy for my exH. It was another 3y before I met my present H. I was single at the time.

 

Some people are SO selfish, SO weak, SO mean. How could they make their children miserable. That's not love. IMHO they're not loving their children deeply enough to see things from THEIR perspective for a change.

 

I'm sorry for your pain guys. More power to you for your love.

 

Lion Heart.

 

Hi Lion Heart! You have a really good heart (I guess it's because it's a lion's, and they love like crazy! ) That said, I hope I'm not part of a reason you make a mistake. I'm not saying letting WH into your children's life is a mistake or not, I don't know. Most likely there is no "right" answer, so it's a decision you must make. Completely extricating him is rough, and probably cold. I don't advocate that, but definitely do advocate setting firm boundaries and sticking with them.

 

Now I understand he's not a "bad" person in general. I don't pretend to know what makes him tick, but a person can do something bad and be a good person in general. You know his character much better than we can. I think if you felt he would be a bad influence, hurtful or cause problems in your children's lives you would not allow it, so trust your judgement. I just hope you are not giving him too much credence based upon what we have said and our hardships.

 

That all said, I do appreciate your kind and caring words! Thank you.

 

To be fair, my wife has not in any way lately tried to stop me from participating in her daughter's life. At first she did, after I was thrown out and she started to go down the divorce warpath, she asked me very directly not to contact her because she was concerned that hearing from me would cause her pain. It wasn't until Thanksgiving that I contacted my wife and asked if I could contact her daughter to wish her a happy one and she agreed. Then again at Christmas, and the contacts were conversations. I asked SD point blank if hearing from me caused her any pain as I would stop if it did, and she said no, she loves it. Just typing that brings tears to my eyes.

 

After that, I never asked for permission again, I just contact her. Meanwhile my wife has not only backed down from that position, but when I told her (yeah, out of some drama) that I would probably never see either of them again, her reply was that she never said I couldn't see her and if I didn't it was because of my own choice. Therefore I do plan on seeing SD again on occasions just to maintain a relationship.

 

KB seems to have something similar, and while I understand him wanting it to be more legal and to be more, that's what I'm saying may be a little unrealistic. I definitely hope you can do it KB, I truly am on your side, I just feel you will find that door legally closed.

 

As for understanding love, I am not sure I even did until recently. It's a difficult concept for some people to grasp. It's easy to understand how we feel, but much more difficult to understand how others feel or how our actions affect them. Just last night i hurt someone whom I did not wish to hurt, and I'll regret it for a long time! At least I understand it enough to regret it. I just wish I had more sense about me in real time.

 

Ken

[darkbloom]

Maybe the point of your marriage was to bring your daughter into your life kb. Maybe that was the only way the universe knew how to do it. I think that maybe you're ultimately meant to be with someone else but your daughter was absolutely nevessary for you to acheive happiness.

 

Not to sound hippy-dippy or anything. Just my thoughts his morning.

[kenmore]

Maybe the point of your marriage was to bring your daughter into your life kb. Maybe that was the only way the universe knew how to do it. I think that maybe you're ultimately meant to be with someone else but your daughter was absolutely nevessary for you to acheive happiness.

 

Not to sound hippy-dippy or anything. Just my thoughts his morning.

 

Or vice versa, maybe she needed him in her life.

[KBarletta]

Or vice versa, maybe she needed him in her life.

 

The truth is a little bit of both - I think we need each other. Honestly, she has become more than just my daughter, she's my reason for going forward at all.

 

If not for her, I wouldn't be nearly as far along in my progress because I wouldn't have so much as a reason to get out of bed some days. Thank God for her, really.

[KBarletta]

Man oh man this has been a rough afternoon.

 

I am closing in on the purchase of a new home for myself and my daughter (part time). This is the one exciting thing I have going in my life that keeps me moving forward.

 

I got an e-mail from the mortgage underwriter today telling me that unless my wife signs our property settlement agreement, I will not be able to purchase the property. I have e-mailed my wife asking her to sign, but there is nothing I can do to force her hand, aside from what I've already done. She could take three months to sign if she chooses. This could push back my whole plan and ruin this entire transaction. Ugh.

 

Also, within five minutes of the above exchange, got an e-mail from my car mechanic telling me that my car (which has been making weird noises) is going to require a full front-end axle and bearing replacement. Ugh x 2. Can't afford that with two mortgages on the horizon, so I have to look into a cheaper/temporary fix until I can afford a new car.

 

Just a tough one-two punch today. I am looking forward to the days when I am in the new home, sell the old home, the D is final, and my daughter and I are sitting pool-side sipping fresh iced tea - with a new car in the garage.

 

That day can't come soon enough.

[KBarletta]

Ugh x 3.

 

My wife has said many times (starting with the DAY she decided to leave) that she wanted a different life for our daughter, starting with a different school. Her plan was to keep her in her current school until the grading year is over, which is coming in exactly one month. I have always disagreed, knowing that my daughter, while quiet and shy, enjoys school and would like to stay where she is.

 

So today, in the midst of exchanges involving several issues, I informed my wife that I would be leaving the school district where our daughter has attended her whole life (she uses our marital home where I live as her legal address) and that we would have to inform our daughter about the change in schools.

 

My wife responded, questioning my plan to leave and saying that she wants our daughter to stay at that school for as long as possible, including the upcoming year.

 

Mind you, when she left, my wife specifically stated that she wanted to move away, out of state at least (possibly out of the country) and that she would stay around long enough for our daughter to finish the school year. Now she wants to keep her there.

 

I am frustrated with this situation. On top of forcing me into a level of contact with my wife for which I am not ready (and one that is bound to involve arguments about what's best for our daughter), this is starting us on a path that is going to make me into the bad guy for selling the house and moving away, a path that MY WIFE initiated by leaving in the first place, and I am just taking to the logical conclusion. And now I will be the bad guy.

 

I am totally annoyed with this development and am uncertain as to whether I should remind my wife that she stated her intent to take our daughter out of that school at the end of the year, and that for her to suggest that she wants her to stay is really just a way of keeping me from moving on.

 

Or if I should just tell her I am moving, and that it's up to her to decide what to do about it.

 

Confused, frustrated. Feeling helpless, first time in a while I've had a day this bad, folks.

 

Thanks for letting me vent.

 

KTB

[darkbloom]

Alright kb,

 

It's going to work itself out. I would just state simply to your wife that you can no longer afford the house you are in on your salary alone. Your compromise is the house you are now trying to buy that is in your price range. As for your daughter's school, I would ask her how she intends to work out the details of your daughter staying in her current school. Is she going to drive her every morning, pick her up, etc. I wouldn't remind her of what she said when she was leaving because that could turn into a fight. And you don't want her to follow through with it. I would make it seem like you are considering her idea of keeping your daughter in her current school and remain firm on your housing decision. That way logically, your wife will reach the same conclusion as you about the schooling.

 

It's too bad you can't just look your wife in the eye and say: "this was your decision to move out, your decision to alter our living arrangement, your decision that is forcing me to do what I don't want to do. Figure it out yourself."

 

Remain strong KB. Your track record for surviving bad days is 100%.