81West Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 So I took a polygraph yesterday. I've been struggling with the decision to ask my wife to take a polygraph about some issues that I still have doubts about. She has said she was willing to several months ago but when I talked to the operator then he advised me to give it a few months. I've read a lot from both sides about the accuracy of them. The voices on both sides are adamant that polygraphs are totally accurate or totally not. So last week I made up a list of 11 questions knowing that I was going to lie about several of them. Since there is more than enough noise on both sides of the accuracy statements I wanted to try it for myself before using a polygraph to decide anything. The polygraph operator that I used works for the local FBI office and has a thriving business of about 17 years and he is licensed by the state. I called three of his references, two were employers that use it to screen employees and one was a local FBI agent. All had glowing things to say about his tests and services. I got to his office and was pretty nervous for some reason, I guess because I knew I was going to lie and was trying to remain calm. I led him to believe that I had been accused of having an affair but had not and wanted to prove it. He talked to me about the questions prior to hooking me up to make sure he understood the questions and to make sure I understood the questions. So then he applied the sensors and we started the polygraph. After that initial session which lasted about 30 minutes and was more chit-chat than anything I was calm and relaxed and then he got to the 11 questions. He asked about ten questions that he knew the answer to: name, age, address, things like that. All showed I was telling the truth. Then he covered my questions. 1. Are you going to be 100% truthful in answering these questions? Me: yes (lie) Poly: truthful 2. Was your wife the first women you had sexual relations with? Me: yes (lie) Poly: truthful 3. Do you or have you had romantic feelings for any woman other than your wife since you've been married? Me: No (truth) Poly: truthful 4. Do you love your wife? Me: Yes (truth) Poly: truthful 5. Do you want to remain married to your wife? Me: yes (truth) Poly: inconclusive (may be inaccurate because of circumstances?) 6. Have you had any type of emotional connection or affair with any woman other than your wife since you've been married? Me: Yes (lie) Poly: truthful 7. Have you had any intimate contact of any type with a women other than your wife? Me: No (truth) Poly: inconclusive 8. Are you having an affair or have you since you've been married? Me: No (truth) Poly: inconclusive 9. Have you ever kissed a women other than your wife since you've been married? Me: No (truth) Poly: deception 10. Have you ever given or received oral sex from anyone other that your wife since you've been married? Me: No (truth) Poly: deception 11. Have you ever had sex with another women other than your wife since you've been married? Me: No (truth) Poly: deception After it was over he asked me to wait in the waiting room. He took a little while in reviewing the results and then called me back in and gave me the bad news. He apologized and said the test showed deception and gave me the results question by question. I listened and thanked him and left. Looking back I really feel like he had decided in that first 30 minute chit chat session that I was a lair and cheater and he made the test results match his gut feel. He got it right in a way, I was lying from the moment I walked in the door, but not about the things he said I was lying about. I think when he got to question 6 and I admitted an emotional connection (even though I was lying) that was all he needed to bust me on the rest of the questions. So all in all a dismal showing for a polygraph being anything but a show. I can see there is some weight in "parking lot confessions" but as far as getting any truth from one I'm now a pretty big skeptic. I would urge anyone that is contemplating having their cheating spouse take a polygraph to take one first. I can't imagine basing life decisions on the outcome of one after my experience but maybe it was just me. I can see why they don't allow them in court now, I suspect a few lawyers tried them, saw the poor results and said no way. Had this been legit and my wife wanted to prove or disprove anything about an affair it would have been unjust and potentially destroyed a marriage for no reason. I hope this helps someone out there, at the very least take one yourself before putting any weight to what they say. I recently read about a story 60 Minutes did several years ago that turned up significant concerns about the impact of polygrapher bias. They hired a selection of random polygraphers to quiz several employees about a stolen camera. No camera had in fact been stolen and employees were offered 50 dollars if they could pass the tests. Prior to each polygrapher doing their respective tests CBS staff fingered a different employee as the likely candidate, though they said all testees could have been the thief. The person fingered as the likely thief to each polygrapher was identified as being the deceptive person in each case. So 'Bob' passed with two of the polygraphers but failed with the polygrapher who had been told he was the best suspect. Similarly 'Sally' failed with the polygrapher who had been influenced to suspect her but passed with the other ploygraphers. Etc. It happened in each test aired in the segment. The story was in this free ebook: https://antipolygraph.org/lie-behind-the-lie-detector.pdf For fun I tried to turn up the footage on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROhp2aS9pQU 3 Link to post Share on other sites
81West Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 I find it hard to believe that the tester allowed you to bring in your own questions - ones that you were completely prepared to answer in advance. Since your whole premise was to lie about lying I'm not sure how this would affect the test. Maybe he was prejudiced on your guilt after the "chit chat" - but you certainly got the result you wanted too. From my [new] [and limited] [and possibly incorrect] understanding, the provided questions would have had to have among them one or more that could act as 'control questions'. Control questions are not as most of us suspect the ones like "what is your name", "is the sky blue" etc. but generalized questions related tangentially to the issue at hand. For example, if you are suspected of stealing a purple llama, a control question would be "have you ever stolen anything in your life?", or "have you ever lied to get out of trouble?". The examiner assumes that the truthful answer to either of these questions is actually yes, but expects the examinee may lie about them. These then form the comparison basis for the directly relevant questions. When you're asked "did you steal a purple llama from the Rainbow Llama farm?" if you react more than the control question you're considered deceptive. If you react less, you're considered truthful. If you react about the same, or if your deceptive/truthful reactions are mixed over a number of questions covering the pertinent issue, the test will come out inconclusive. It's interesting, but you can certainly see the potential for wrong results. It's actually biased against truth in the sense that if you tell the truth on the control questions there's actually little way to come out truthful. You'll either come out deceptive or inconclusive. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author VeryBrokenMan Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 VBM I just read your post about you going for testing on how reliable a polygraph is. You put yourself through a polygraph to test it's reliability. It's like you're torturing yourself. i think you're a good man, I'm in your corner and I guess maybe you don't see it that way. I wish you peace There was no malice intended by my response to your previous post and I had no problems with your comments other than I have a different viewpoint. In fact I have no problems or bad feelings for anyone here, I have just come to accept that everyone has their own viewpoint based on their own injuries and there is never going to be a meeting point for many of us. We can all discuss this as adults and disagree at times and that's fine. There are some here that cannot accept that as the reality. My injuries and experiences are not yours and yours are not mine. And those injuries color everything we do and say about the subject of infidelity. The test itself was not torture at all, I was nervous but nervous like I was about to take a test not nervous like I'm about to die. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author VeryBrokenMan Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 I find it hard to believe that the tester allowed you to bring in your own questions - ones that you were completely prepared to answer in advance. Since your whole premise was to lie about lying I'm not sure how this would affect the test. Maybe he was prejudiced on your guilt after the "chit chat" - but you certainly got the result you wanted too. I've struggled with your point too. Did I adversely affect the results because of how I approached it? I keep coming back to the thought that if the premise is true that they can detect deception then nothing I could have done should have an influence on the test. It should have known I was lying when I told lies and it should have known I was telling the truth. It failed both ways. So I did get an answer but I would have preferred to see that it was 100% accurate. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
drifter777 Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 Interesting...a polygraph is "torture," and yet it is suggested for WS every day. So, by deduction I suppose that means we believe that WS are deserving of torture. Not that I'm surprised, it's just interesting. A polygraph isn't even close to my definition of "torture" - but that's just me. I'm curious about such a test because I've never taken one or know anyone who has taken one. I read this on what I consider a "reputable" site. Usually the operator/examiner will take an applicant through the test three times in order to establish a baseline for the applicants physiological state and then twice more for the purpose of detecting deception. There was nothing in VBM's post that leads me to believe this protocol was followed. Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 A polygraph isn't even close to my definition of "torture" - but that's just me. I'm curious about such a test because I've never taken one or know anyone who has taken one. I read this on what I consider a "reputable" site. Usually the operator/examiner will take an applicant through the test three times in order to establish a baseline for the applicants physiological state and then twice more for the purpose of detecting deception. There was nothing in VBM's post that leads me to believe this protocol was followed. I just thought it was interesting that a polygraph is necessary no matter what for a WS, but for a BS the exact same test is torture....... Link to post Share on other sites
Author VeryBrokenMan Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 A polygraph isn't even close to my definition of "torture" - but that's just me. I'm curious about such a test because I've never taken one or know anyone who has taken one. I read this on what I consider a "reputable" site. Usually the operator/examiner will take an applicant through the test three times in order to establish a baseline for the applicants physiological state and then twice more for the purpose of detecting deception. There was nothing in VBM's post that leads me to believe this protocol was followed. He did not take 3 separate passes but did ask each question in multiple ways and mixed them up at times. I gave you the original questions not how he asked each one and the results were tied back to the original questions I gave him. I'm not sure how the initial questions he knew where true played into it but I'm sure that was for some type of baseline. Link to post Share on other sites
81West Posted June 24, 2015 Share Posted June 24, 2015 He did not take 3 separate passes but did ask each question in multiple ways and mixed them up at times. I gave you the original questions not how he asked each one and the results were tied back to the original questions I gave him. I'm not sure how the initial questions he knew where true played into it but I'm sure that was for some type of baseline. Interestingly, that e-book I linked to a few posts up says those questions are not even used in evaluating deception. It's early in the book ('cause I didn't get that far!) if you're interested. Link to post Share on other sites
Author VeryBrokenMan Posted June 24, 2015 Author Share Posted June 24, 2015 Interestingly, that e-book I linked to a few posts up says those questions are not even used in evaluating deception. It's early in the book ('cause I didn't get that far!) if you're interested. I plan to take a look thanks. That tends to confirm what I was thinking that the operator had made up his mind and the questions were a smokescreen. I'd like to think the bia is not that great but I guess we are all human. The thing is I'm not a cheater and never will be so I wonder what vibe I gave off to make him biased in that direction. Maybe he thinks everyone that comes in for a poly is guilty? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
turnera Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 A polygraph isn't even close to my definition of "torture" - but that's just me. I'm curious about such a test because I've never taken one or know anyone who has taken one. I read this on what I consider a "reputable" site. I took one once. No big deal. No torture. Link to post Share on other sites
turnera Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 I plan to take a look thanks. That tends to confirm what I was thinking that the operator had made up his mind and the questions were a smokescreen. I'd like to think the bia is not that great but I guess we are all human. The thing is I'm not a cheater and never will be so I wonder what vibe I gave off to make him biased in that direction. Maybe he thinks everyone that comes in for a poly is guilty?Did he show you the results and show you where the fails were? Link to post Share on other sites
m.snow Posted June 25, 2015 Share Posted June 25, 2015 a polygraph is useless i assure you! back in high school science convention. I lied about my name about everything and still the result was truthful. i tricked the operators wearing a fake id. cause i know that stuff is bogus. Link to post Share on other sites
Author VeryBrokenMan Posted June 26, 2015 Author Share Posted June 26, 2015 Did he show you the results and show you where the fails were? He told me the questions that I failed, not the reasons. Link to post Share on other sites
aliveagain Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 What are you trying to prove by telling us about how you lied to a polygrapher? I have friends who are in the Canadian Police Services who also do work for Scotland Yard, Csis(Canada's version of CIA) and the CIA. They still use polygraph testing for whatever reason(they have methods of testing that go way beyond polygraphs). Perhaps polygraph testing isn't for you because you didn't think it was necessary after her first affair and you would rather prove the inaccuracy of the testing than have her take the test after her second affair. Let's hope this is her last affair because you write like a man with much intelligence and I can't see you buying her alibi a third time, at least I would hope not. This is not about the accuracy of polygraph testing, this is about your wife who has a history of dating other men while married to you and how you decide to deal with her infidelities. My way of dealing with infidelity is different than your way of dealing with it, both are right. I did exactly like you the first few times. After the last infidelity, a child by other man, I chose a new way, absolute zero tolerance. If they know that divorce is on the table from the start and they still choose to fu*k someone else, well, they know what's coming next. No excuse on this planet is good enough to keep her cheating a$$ in my life. If your both happy with whatever part of each other you still have, bless you both, go and be happy. Some spouses know that no matter what they do, their s/o will never leave them, that they will compromise themselves to hold onto whatever they can hold onto just to keep them in their lives. Decide (and mean it) that this is the last time. Don't let dishonest people rule your life, it's your life. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
understand50 Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 What are you trying to prove by telling us about how you lied to a polygrapher? I have friends who are in the Canadian Police Services who also do work for Scotland Yard, Csis(Canada's version of CIA) and the CIA. They still use polygraph testing for whatever reason(they have methods of testing that go way beyond polygraphs). Perhaps polygraph testing isn't for you because you didn't think it was necessary after her first affair and you would rather prove the inaccuracy of the testing than have her take the test after her second affair. Let's hope this is her last affair because you write like a man with much intelligence and I can't see you buying her alibi a third time, at least I would hope not. This is not about the accuracy of polygraph testing, this is about your wife who has a history of dating other men while married to you and how you decide to deal with her infidelities. My way of dealing with infidelity is different than your way of dealing with it, both are right. I did exactly like you the first few times. After the last infidelity, a child by other man, I chose a new way, absolute zero tolerance. If they know that divorce is on the table from the start and they still choose to fu*k someone else, well, they know what's coming next. No excuse on this planet is good enough to keep her cheating a$$ in my life. If your both happy with whatever part of each other you still have, bless you both, go and be happy. Some spouses know that no matter what they do, their s/o will never leave them, that they will compromise themselves to hold onto whatever they can hold onto just to keep them in their lives. Decide (and mean it) that this is the last time. Don't let dishonest people rule your life, it's your life. aliveagain, I tend to be on "reconciliation" side, but I can see where your stance is valid in many cases, if not most cases. You bring a lot to the conversations. I admire your honesty. Your point is valid, that it is theirs own life. In the end they have to make their choice, and live with it. VBM has chosen to reconcile. I hope that what he sees in his wife is true. If she is what you fear, then that will come out in due time. As for Polygraphs, being useful, again as you state, it is a choice to be used or not in each circumstance. Trying to decide, if there is anything to save, or can a "new" marriage, relationship, life be built on the ashes of the old, is a hard question, made worse with the emotions and personality of the people involved. I think your point of view of divorce, needs to an option, as if it is not, then reconciliation can not really happen. If one is not willing to walk away, then the WS has nothing to lose, that is the paradox. Sometimes what was done cannot be forgiven, nothing to be salvaged and one must walk away. I hope that any Betrayed spouse who come here, realizes, that must hear all sides, and then do what is best for them, as they see it. Wish you luck. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
merrmeade Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 I just thought it was interesting that a polygraph is necessary no matter what for a WS, but for a BS the exact same test is torture....... What's your point? Why is it interesting? Link to post Share on other sites
Author VeryBrokenMan Posted June 29, 2015 Author Share Posted June 29, 2015 What's your point? Why is it interesting? I took it to mean it was hypocritical. Link to post Share on other sites
Author VeryBrokenMan Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 Just curious what everyone thinks on this subject. Is it normal for a married women to have 40 Facebook friends that are male? Assume that no cheating has taken place. Does anyone think that a number of those 40 men had more than friendship in mind? Or can men be Facebook friends without any thoughts of wanting more? I don't have any Facebook friends that are women (other than relatives) and never have. Link to post Share on other sites
CarrieT Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I guess it depends. I'm a 50-year old woman and I've got 1,600 friends. Of those, I probably know and chat with 100+ of them, many of whom are men. Link to post Share on other sites
Author VeryBrokenMan Posted July 1, 2015 Author Share Posted July 1, 2015 I guess it depends. I'm a 50-year old woman and I've got 1,600 friends. Of those, I probably know and chat with 100+ of them, many of whom are men. Thanks, I never saw it as a problem prior to her affair. But a friend told me that married women never have that many non-related male friends on Facebook. I guess everyone is different. Link to post Share on other sites
lgspot Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I guess it depends. I'm a 50-year old woman and I've got 1,600 friends. Of those, I probably know and chat with 100+ of them, many of whom are men. Good answer Carrie. I know many woman that are social and love Facebook... If I were in VBM's place, I would appreciate you writing that. Just curious what everyone thinks on this subject. Is it normal for a married women to have 40 Facebook friends that are male? Assume that no cheating has taken place. Does anyone think that a number of those 40 men had more than friendship in mind? Or can men be Facebook friends without any thoughts of wanting more? I don't have any Facebook friends that are women (other than relatives) and never have. VBM, In this case, don't borrow trouble. Nor overthink it.... Many women are just more socially friendly than us guys on social media. Good idea to remain vigilant, but don't let it interfere with all the good things you and Ann have happening. I'm a guy, and I've easily got more than 40 female friends on my Facebook. I probably only want to sleep with half of them.:) I'm joking sir. You've come a long way and I admire you. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
oldshirt Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 I probably have 300-400 female friends on my list with multiple dozens that I have had sex with and several that I had serious, LTRs with in the past. I have not cheated with any of them. Now I am a guy so it's not like any of them are sitting there secretly hoping that I'll hook up with them some day so it is a little different than a woman maintaining a list of admirers and orbitors but there has to be more evidence that facebook friends to ring any alarm bells. Link to post Share on other sites
turnera Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 About half of my FB friends are men. Never had more than a cursory comment with any of them, aside from a birthday wish or two. Link to post Share on other sites
Author VeryBrokenMan Posted July 2, 2015 Author Share Posted July 2, 2015 About half of my FB friends are men. Never had more than a cursory comment with any of them, aside from a birthday wish or two. And that is exactly the tactic the OM used to start the affair, a birthday wish, heavy pursuit then 3 weeks later they were having sex. Link to post Share on other sites
beach Posted July 2, 2015 Share Posted July 2, 2015 And that is exactly the tactic the OM used to start the affair, a birthday wish, heavy pursuit then 3 weeks later they were having sex. What has your wife discovered about herself - and why she was that vulnerable to an affair? What has she done to change herself so that she's not that gal anymore? If you still don't trust her - she hasn't done enough self discovery to heal the marriage... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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