When it rains it pours

[venusishername]

Some of you followed my lengthy thread detailing my dating disappointment(s) of recent. If not, the long and short of it is I've just been stuck in a bad rut of dating and feeling very discouraged and disappointed. So I just backed off and let off the pressure I was putting on myself and kind of embraced being single. I had a switch go off recently and I think I changed a leaf that's been doing me a world of good! Now I feel like the floodgates have opened.

 

Background: All of my girlfriends and cousins are either engaged, married and/or just had babies. I'm 30 and all I've wanted my whole life is to get married. Kids would be the icing on the cake, I just always knew I wanted a husband. I had two long term failed relationships that I ended and have struggled since then to find anything long term, because I just wasn't in the right mindset. I used to think that it was a generational thing for men to want their wives to stay home and have kids and that it was obsolete and old fashioned. I look around me and every woman I know has a husband who provides that to her. And these women all have good careers and educations, like I do, and they seem to have the best of both worlds because they have that choice! I used to think they got 'lucky' but I realized that what actually happened is they set out to get it and wouldn't settle for less! That was the turning point for me. I know I can't compare, and many of them envy my freedom and think of me as so 'Sex and the City' glamorous and independent going on dates all the time (which is so not true), so I know the grass isn't always greener Not saying that's all I'm after, but I'd sure like to have that choice!!

 

Anyway, aside from actually going out and being open to meeting men in real life, I signed back on for my online dating accounts about a month or so ago. So far I've just been chatting with a few, haven't actually met anyone yet, but a couple in the works! In the past I think I had a negative view of the online thing but it seems like there are definitely some good options out there once you weed through the weirdos! So far, I'm pleasantly surprised at the quality of men out there. I realize sometimes it's just hard to meet people the regular way and I'm not so pessimistic about it.

One of the guys I matched with was someone I hooked up with from this past summer!! We didn't sleep together, we just made out on the beach (don't judge me! I was caught in the moment!) My girlfriend and I were out for a Happy Hour and he and his friends waved us over to join at their table because it was standing room only and we had a good time and fun and we hit it off. We walked out together and on the beach, made out, and he took my number, and contacted me after but never followed through. This seems to happen to me a lot so I shrugged it off.

Now 4 months later, he contacted me the other day through the site recognizing me and asked for my number again and texted this morning and asked to take me to dinner! Meeting him tonight. How sad, I can't remember the last time a man actually asked me to dinner! But I'm looking forward to it! Being that our last interaction was superficial I'm wondering if he thinks it's just going to be fun and have the physical stuff happen again. Should I preface our meeting with a text saying something like getting to know each other tonight, last time got carried away.'?

 

 

I think what turned my leaf was not caring what people (in this case, men) thought of me. I also realized through a thread I was following here that I tended to use sex as a bargaining chip when I really have a lot more to offer than just that. I wasn't ready to get involved with anyone beyond a superficial level until now so I had my phase of casual-only dating. Now I'm ready for something substantial that took a rebuilding of self-esteem and confidence for me to be ready for. I also notice I'm much happier and more relaxed and open now, while not tolerating BS from people and just generally not giving a damn if someone likes me or wants to date me or not. Stepping up the standards.

 

I'll post updates on the date tonight! Seems strange after so long has gone by... wondering if there will still be the same chemistry.

Edited November 14, 2014 by venusishername

[venusishername]

Wow, so it went really well!

I really like this guy and it seems like he is genuine. I don't feel uneasy or nervous in a bad way, or uncertain or anxious. It felt very comfortable and I had a good time.

Liked him in July when we met, and I still like him now! The first time we met other people were with us so this time was nice for a one on one! He asked me to dinner, he was very polite, he was friendly and the conversation was easy. Did all the right things.

I'm having trouble reigning in my hormones because I'm lucky if I have sex once every couple months and his body is like chiseled marble and I've touched it. We made out again, I made the mistake of inviting him in after he walked me home after kissing outside. I wanted to and it wasn't the first time anyway.

So today I texted him in the morning and thanked him for dinner and the drinks, he responded after work and asked how I was feeling because I was getting over a cold and if he could bring me anything! We chatted a little back and forth and he asked to see me again tomorrow!

No set plans yet because I have other tentative plans with friends but said maybe after that.

 

 

I'd like to continue to date other people, obviously... but it seems like he's honing in on me. He seems to be relationship minded. Maybe I'm wrong. He said he only met one other person from the site besides me, and he had already met me in person. So it doesn't sound like he's actively dating. This is where I start putting up my wall and getting distant and freaking out because of the potential for 'relationship pressure'. I need to stop doing that and give him a chance.

 

 

I also see there are a lot of other great guys out there and I want to give them a chance too. I know what I want, so I just need to go get it and not be so afraid to open up my heart again.

[cif]

Aww your post made me smile. So happy you've moved on and actually "liking" someone else. He sounds interested but to gauge what exactly he's interested in remember to take it slow. Careful with the dating others.. not that you shouldn't but sometimes men pull back if they know there are others in the background.

[smackie9]

I usually have a rule of thumb....if it goes past the second or third date, it's only fair to either A, tell them you are dating others of B, take down your dating account and focus on the one guy. Communication is key. If you are still unsure, or not ready, tell him, don't lead him on if it's looking like you both are not on the same page.

[venusishername]

Hi guys,

So another great update! On Friday he had mentioned us maybe getting together Saturday night and left it at I would let him know because I already had made plans for dinnertime. He checked in with me in the afternoon and asked how I was feeling (getting over a bad cold) and I had told him I was still planning on getting in touch if early enough that night after done with my plans with friends.

 

 

Friends stayed for awhile and it was getting late my gf and I decided to go out for a drink down the street and I texted him. I didn't think I'd see him because he said he was with friends about 5 miles away but we texted back and forth and then he actually called me. Not that it means so much but most guys these days don't pick up the phone, at least in my experience. I thought it was so nice that he called and wanted to come see me. He said his phone was dying and he wanted to make sure he knew where I was because he wanted to see me.! I mentioned that later that I appreciated that he actually used the telephone to call. Simple good manners never get past me

 

 

So in a very short time, he showed up! He took a cab from where he was and spent the rest of the time with me and my girlfriend. He bought us a drink and he was so friendly and fun and polite, we had a great time. I was still feeling him out, but realized he was a cooler guy by the minute, and that he seemed into me. My gf told me in private that I was being standoffish and to give in to him, that I was being aloof and I need to be more warm to him because he made the effort to spend time with me and seemed really interested. I did that, we all left together and we walked her home. My place is a mile walk from where we were (that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it) and he lives very close. So we went there and hung out for awhile. I wasn't planning to have sex, and we didn't. I just wanted to spend more time with him because I really like him and we have a good time together. We did everything else though. It was incredible and I loved it. I don't feel uncomfortable about it, we have amazing chemistry and I'm very attracted to him.

 

 

I stopped him from intercourse; I would've done it but he had no protection so I said no and that I insisted on that before that happened. So we didn't do it.

I read another thread here that I completely agree with (I don't believe in the no sex before monogamy hardfast rule).. that sex isn't a bargaining chip or gift women bestow on men, it's a mutually desired act when you are forming or want to form a relationship. And that's what it felt like. I didn't feel like I had to win him over by giving him the goods.

This morning I woke up very early and got dressed to be on my way. He suggested we go get something to eat, and we had a really nice breakfast. After, I offered to buy him coffee at my favorite local place and we walked for awhile, it was such a clear beautiful day.

 

 

Had talked about going sailing that afternoon and I have some past experience sailing that I had shared with him before and he was anxious to get his boat in the water today.

I had some lunch plans with family, and got in touch with him once done. We had such a great day on the water, just the two of us on the boat, his shirt off and gorgeous and ripped tan body to gaze on, sailing me around all afternoon. It was lovely and made me feel really alive and happy to be young and free.

Ended the night with dinner out at the restaurant we met back over the summer, and finished it off with wine and a movie at his place. It was such a great day! I would've really loved to take it all the way physically tonight, especially after the night before, and spending the whole day with him, tension building more, and very affectionate. We did other things again and he stopped it, I think because we were both falling asleep, so exhausted. I left not too long ago and he was falling asleep.

 

 

I've had day-long and 24 hour dates in the past. It doesn't mean the world. But we really like each other, we are really hitting it off. He is kind and sweet and doesn't seem like a fake jerk. He is friendly to people just in passing, and has a really great sunny and positive personality. He is my age, which is unusual for me. I've always dated guys at MINIMUM 4-5 years older. It's refreshing to be around someone at my level. I feel comfortable and happy and turned on and safe and have no doubt that he is interested in me and wants me. Like I said, I've experienced that in the past, I could just tell in many ways that he's definitely looking for a relationship. After my last experience, or just in general, I see such a stark contrast between this man and the other men I've met who were looking for something more superficial for me. He really appears like a one woman man. He's a good and genuine man and I see that more and more each minute is reaffirmed.

I'm still getting to know him, I have to pull back a little to not move so fast! He mentioned that I should come over to his place this week because he will be cooking for some friends. I'm certain I will.

Last night, the booze was talking and I stopped him midsentence and asked 'Why are you being so nice to me?!' (yes, I have felt unworthy for a long time (. He looked at me and said because I deserve it. It's very very nice to be treated with respect. I feel I can trust what he says. Maybe too soon to say that but he puts me at ease.

Here's the thing: I want to continue being open to meeting other men, maybe thinking too far but I do see this as potentially heading into relationship territory, so I want to take it easy and slow to be sure. There's a few I've been chatting with on the site and want to meet, and others out in the world I'd still like to be available to,and I feel uneasy about how to go about this. I don't want to give him all my free time, so I may have to put the brakes on. I also don't want to bring it up until he does, or at least after more time spent together.

Of course I'm free to see or speak to other men. It just seems like we are connecting in a way that seems like there's a possibility to lead to something more, and I want to be sure.

Edited November 17, 2014 by venusishername

[smackie9]

So how would you like if you were really digging a guy, and was under the impression that there is potential for a relationship because that is what you had in mind. Then you started to really have feeling for him, then he turns one day and says to you that he wants to see what esle is out there, and this is becoming too much.....wouldn't you feel lead on?? wouldn't that make you feel used? wouldn't that hurt your feelings, make you think you are not good enough?

 

It's only fair you communicate with him what your intensions are. If it scares him off, that means you both are not on the same page in the first place. Stop leading him on.

[venusishername]

So how would you like if you were really digging a guy, and was under the impression that there is potential for a relationship because that is what you had in mind. Then you started to really have feeling for him, then he turns one day and says to you that he wants to see what esle is out there, and this is becoming too much.....wouldn't you feel lead on?? wouldn't that make you feel used? wouldn't that hurt your feelings, make you think you are not good enough?

 

It's only fair you communicate with him what your intensions are. If it scares him off, that means you both are not on the same page in the first place. Stop leading him on.

 

 

Well, I feel it is too soon to have that conversation. We just reconnected last week after meeting one time and have only had four total meetings. I would say 3 dates.

I completely agree it's important to talk about 'what are you looking for' but I think in this situation it is clear where he's coming from, although I don't know for sure. He certainly has other options. I want to give him a chance and of course I don't want to lead him on. I don't think it's realistic to expect exclusivity so soon. I'm still getting to know him and I don't know if it's a good fit and something to pursue beyond what I see already.

 

 

He had mentioned getting together tonight but I feel I need to slow it down a little and I also have things I'd like to do! I can see why people tend to pull back when they're not 100% available and open. I don't want to pass this up because it's what I've been wanting for a long time... I'm just a little gunshy. I think next time we go out it would be a good time to bring up, if it happens. In my past experience, I recall it being within a month's time that I had that conversation with the men who became my boyfriends.

Edited November 17, 2014 by venusishername

[venusishername]

They are coming out of the woodworks. This is awesome! All it took was a shift in the way I was viewing being single. It's really true, as soon as you stop looking, ironically you become more open to it.

 

 

I've been chatting with someone online for a week or so and we just exchanged phone numbers and he just texted me! We seem to be on the same page and have a lot in common. He's going out of town for work all week but I'm sure he's going to ask to see me as soon as he's back. I'm so nervous and I don't know how to date multiple people :/

 

I also want to be fair to the guy I just spent the weekend with. I want to just make it clear to him the next time that I'm talking to someone/others and don't want to jump right into a relationship. (Hmm, I just heard that from the last guy I was 'seeing' and I was the one who brought up the 'what are you looking for' conversation.)

 

 

In any case, I really know what I want now and there is NO reason to settle for less. I feel like I made leaps and bounds in a matter of months.

 

 

I hate to call it 'juggling', but what are your thoughts on juggling etiquette?

[venusishername]

I could really use some input, I'm really feeling nervous/excited about what's been going on.

So, the guy I reconnected with last week texted me yesterday and asked if I'd like to come to his place for dinner. I felt like I played a little hard to get with him, but I did want to get some things done after work. I said 'maybe, I'll let you know once I'm done'. I wanted to see him and his invitation sounded appealing but I've been holding back because well, I'm nervous about spending so much time when it's clear he intends to pursue something real and is genuine about getting to know me. It's scary! I'm easing back into this...

 

 

I did end up going, and he totally made me feel no pressure. He cooked a nice dinner and told me to just sit back and relax and we had some wine and watched TV and talked and had a good time. When I arrived he gave me a kiss, but for the rest of the night he didn't initiate touching me. After dinner, we were sitting across the room and I thought I should join him where he was sitting. I was so nervous and he picked up on it. He made a joking comment asking how much coffee have I had today, (he knows I'm a big coffee drinker) and I confessed I was nervous. We've been alone before, I don't know why I was feeling so uneasy. But he didn't push. He just made me feel comfortable. I'm really attracted to him and there's definitely chemistry on more than a physical level too...the more I get to know him. Anyway, I ended making a move and it led to the bedroom, but again, it didn't go all the way. I'm used to men being more aggressive when it comes to that, although it's clear he wants to. I asked if something was wrong, and if he didn't want to continue and he said 'we'll get there'. He wants to wait. Maybe because it's clear I'm nervous and keeping a safe distance and maybe he is too. Once becoming physical the floodgates tend to open and maybe it's too soon for that, although we've gotten to third base. I admit to feeling a little thrown off, because that's what I'm used to.

He brought me back home and kissed goodnight, didn't talk about next time, just said talk to you soon. He's being very respectful. It's about time I meet a man like that again; they seem far and few between.

He's a great person, genuine and such a positive and sunny personality. So easy to be around. He's endearingly boyish and I feel myself being around him.

 

I'd like to see him again soon of course, but I'm finding my free time this week is filling up fast with other plans, the time I'm used to spending alone, working out, time with girlfriends, now a date with someone else this week.

I feel very conflicted and nervous about going out with multiple people. I don't know if I'm going to like the second guy in person, (online dating is kinda new for me) but we've been texting all day for the past several days now and today he did ask to get together for a drink this week or weekend. So far he seems very much on the same page, we have things in common, he seems like my type of guy with similar interests and intentions. He's asked me a lot of questions about myself and says he really likes talking with me. I'm excited to meet him but also super nervous... always meeting in person is nerve-wracking. Maybe I won't like him, maybe it will be awkward, a waste of time, he will be a total bore or not as attractive in person, etc. What if it goes well, what do I do? If it doesn't, what about other opportunities that may arise?

 

How can I let the guy who's genuinely interested in me know that although I do want to get to know him more and I do also want something serious that I think I just need some time? Do I need to say something at this point or wait until he brings it up? I don't want to hurt him or lead him on. I would hate to be out with someone else and him see me and feel hurt.. I experienced that recently and it hurt. So far he's great but I feel this nagging defense mechanism to keep my options open. Am I being unfair to him by not mentioning that I'm talking to and open to others? When does that conversation happen? Right now it seems too soon but I don't want to screw this up by pushing him away.

[maysj18]

You can take your time and go slow without dating other men. I really think that may change things for the two of you if pursue other people. While it's early, he seems to have everything going for him that you want and he's obviously incredibly interested. Don't assume that by not dating other people you are not going to be able to take things slow-no, no. IF you want something serious with this guy, you really need to rethink your dating strategy. You can always start dating other people if it fizzles, but I'd steer clear until then. Usually multi-daters STOP dating around when they find someone they click with the way you click with this guy. That's kind of the point.

[CatalystNX]

My advice: slow down. You seem really anxious.

 

I know if I was dating a girl and it was going as well as it (apparently) is with the first guy, I wouldn't necessarily expect exclusivity, but I would expect her to give it enough time before moving on to someone else once it was clear there was legit relationship potential.

 

Honestly, I don't think it's entirely fair to either of these guys, assuming both are after more than sex (which I realize could be assuming too much, but I'll give them both the benefit of the doubt).

 

When I meet someone and there is chemistry/sparks and things go really well on the first and second dates, I won't date anyone else until I get a sense that the potential isn't there. But then again, I don't date for just sex and would never consider sex that soon with someone I feel has LTR potential. It's a matter of respect for me, on both ends, but I realize I'm a bit old fashioned in that way - or so I've been told.

 

So yeah, my advice would be to slow down and don't be in such a hurry.

[venusishername]

Usually multi-daters STOP dating around when they find someone they click with the way you click with this guy. That's kind of the point.

 

 

Well, I'm certainly not a multi dater. This is the first time this has ever happened believe it or not. I mean, the second guy came around within a few days of the first, I'd hate to not agree to meet with him because I'm getting on so well with the first. I'm still getting to know him, what if I decide after more time spent together that I've changed my mind and it's not a good fit after all? I kind of feel more comfortable waiting to date only one person until I am 100% sure that it's a good fit. So far so good, but still too soon to tell.

I guess I'm worried about putting all my eggs in one basket.

[venusishername]

Since my last post I was kind of figuring that I'd at least have some solid plans with the first guy for the weekend, but that hasn't happened.

Last time I had no indication that he wasn't interested, we didn't plan for anything next time but two days ago he sent a text.

It was a screenshot of a song he was listening to, my favorite band (which he knew). I thought that was really sweet that he thought of me. He asked how I was doing, I invited him over to have some dinner that I had made and he declined due to an early morning the next day but didn't offer any alternative. He did say he didn't have any set plans over the next few days.

Today is Friday and I haven't heard from him. He never responded to my last text the other night (which didn't warrant a response anyway).

I really am hoping to see him this weekend. I'd like to even see him tonight, to invite to a show I'm going to. Should I reach out? I wonder if he noticed I had activity on Tinder... I mean I'm not actively searching for someone but I did look at it the other day. I'm wondering if he checked it out. Someone mentioned that he might pull back. See, this is why this is the last time I'm ever using the online dating crap! I don't want people knowing my personal business based on my activity on a dating site :/

 

Anyway, speaking of which, I have a date tomorrow with the online guy. I'm so nervous about it!! What if it's absolutely awful?

Plus, if I see #1 tonight, I would feel awkward about seeing #2 tomorrow, especially if #1 and I have any kind of physical contact. I just feel like dating more than one man (even if totally in the beginning stages) it is dishonest and sneaky. I'm kinda old fashioned, I guess.

[GemmaUK]

It doesn't sound like #1 is terribly interested. I think he would have suggested another date if he couldn't make dinner at yours.

I don't understand how dinner n an evening conflicts with an early morning unless dinner was really late and he was needing to be up and out of his house at 2/3/4am.

Does he work odd hours?

[venusishername]

It doesn't sound like #1 is terribly interested. I think he would have suggested another date if he couldn't make dinner at yours.

I don't understand how dinner n an evening conflicts with an early morning unless dinner was really late and he was needing to be up and out of his house at 2/3/4am.

Does he work odd hours?

 

Hm. I had every indication that he was very interested, except for the fact that he didn't try to have sex with me the other night. I say that based on my intuition and just from the way he acts when I've been around him and also the fact that he's been texting often and regularly, just thoughtful things. I think he is very interested and not playing me or just out to score, etc. I guess it is possible that he's not all that interested and I took it as more than it was. Hmmph, it's happened before.

Well, his reason was that he HAS been working early mornings, like 6 a.m., he has a very physically demanding job and goes to bed early and has to be 100% for his work. It wasn't a late dinner invitation. It just sounded like he's been really exhausted and he had said he probably couldn't make it past 9 p.m. that night.

However, it is Friday and I don't have plans lined up with him. Here I am feeling uneasy for going on a date with someone tomorrow that was planned in advance to not knowing when I'll hear back from the first guy. Should I contact him today? He's always been the one to initiate so far. Maybe he's hoping I'll come to him?

Edited November 21, 2014 by venusishername

[GemmaUK]

Guy #1 you are making your own assumptions and excuses for him already.

Because you fancy him? Yep.

Someone IS able to go on a date and still be at work at 6am.

If they want to.

 

 

Somewhere in you you feel bad for going on 'just a date' with another guy.

 

 

Why feel bad?

 

 

Being 100% honest I have never done this but however if you are not sleeping with either then what is the problem?

Multi dating is common these days.

[venusishername]

Guy #1 you are making your own assumptions and excuses for him already.

Because you fancy him? Yep.

Someone IS able to go on a date and still be at work at 6am.

If they want to.

Somewhere in you you feel bad for going on 'just a date' with another guy.

Why feel bad?

Being 100% honest I have never done this but however if you are not sleeping with either then what is the problem?

Multi dating is common these days.

 

 

Ok, I'm confused. I have every indication that he's interested, so it threw me off when he declined and didn't offer an alternative. I know you mean well Gemma but your post didn't help much

 

Right, I'm not sleeping with him so I feel 'less' bad about going out with someone else. On the same token it's possible that he's not 'terribly interested' anyway so why limit myself?

I think it wouldn't do any harm to reach out to him today. If he hadn't texted me first the other day I probably wouldn't have invited him for dinner. I took his text about the song as that he was thinking about me.

[BluEyeL]

You made several big mistakes again with guy 1.

 

You should definitely go out with guy 2.

[venusishername]

You made several big mistakes again with guy 1.

 

You should definitely go out with guy 2.

 

Oh s***. What did I do BlueEye? I didn't sleep with him!

I am going out with him tomorrow that has already been lined up since the beginning of the week.

[GemmaUK]

Ok, I'm confused. I have every indication that he's interested, so it threw me off when he declined and didn't offer an alternative. I know you mean well Gemma but your post didn't help much

 

Right, I'm not sleeping with him so I feel 'less' bad about going out with someone else. On the same token it's possible that he's not 'terribly interested' anyway so why limit myself?

I think it wouldn't do any harm to reach out to him today. If he hadn't texted me first the other day I probably wouldn't have invited him for dinner. I took his text about the song as that he was thinking about me.

 

Sorry if my post didn't help much.

To me actions speak louder than words from a man so I go by actions.

 

 

If he contacts you tomorrow then by all means you can choose to cancel your #2 and meet #1.

 

 

In no way was I suggesting you limit yourself.

I was suggesting that it was OK to meet either one, the other or both.

 

 

If you are doing the chasing with #1 then he has no chance to. Be aware that he may not be chasing because he is not interested.

 

 

Generally men do like to chase.

A bit of a chase from a woman is fine but if he is not reciprocating then you need to stop chasing.

[venusishername]

Ok, I need to clarify here.

I wasn't intending on cancelling any date with anyone.

I'm also by no means chasing the first guy. His response the other day and then silence just threw me off since he's so far taken every initiative to contact me and see me, and even just sending thoughtful messages, even a phone call. He pulled back a little (in my view) and that naturally makes me wonder and want to reach out to him.

What possible mistakes could I have made with him, other than acting nervous around him and taking it to third base?

[BluEyeL]

You gave him oral sex (that's third base right?)

You spent the night

You spent too much time with him at once

You asked him out (last minute)

You acted insecure

 

Men get bored. They fall in love when you're not there, they have to miss you. You have to give them time to miss you. You have to act confident. You don't go to a man's house at first few dates.

 

But you'll never listen, because you know better.

[venusishername]

You gave him oral sex (that's third base right?)

You spent the night

You spent too much time with him at once

You asked him out (last minute)

You acted insecure

 

Men get bored. They fall in love when you're not there, they have to miss you. You have to give them time to miss you. You have to act confident. You don't go to a man's house at first few dates.

 

But you'll never listen, because you know better.

 

Well, every point you made above was done mutually. Why should there be a double standard? We did get carried away, but it was a really enjoyable time all around. I guess it's not so taboo to me to go to someone's house if you intend to eventually sleep together. That's just me, maybe I'm wrong.

I just sent a text asking what he was up to this weekend, hoping for an invitation. He responded right away but didn't offer anything or ask what I was doing... Yet.

So, I guess if he doesn't, I'll just take a step back, go on my date tomorrow, and if he wants to see me then he will ask.

[BluEyeL]

That's a good plan. He knows where you are. Like last time.

 

And yes...it is tabu. Be classy. Pace the relationship. Be patient.

[venusishername]

That's a good plan. He knows where you are. Like last time.

 

And yes...it is tabu. Be classy. Pace the relationship. Be patient.

 

Very true. Hard to be patient but I will keep that in mind, being that I do want something more than a fling.