When it rains it pours

February 4, 2015

I agree with you, Chimp as far as the hang ups after sex. I've never heard of that happening before.

ANYWAY, yes to what you said about R. Yesterday I started to feel that little 'itch' of insecurity flare up. But then I reminded myself to chill out, don't stress, don't worry about what he's thinking, etc. Once sex is on the table, I tend to get a little antsy. I think it's my insecurity coming through. I realize I was the one who made my bed (pun intended) by sleeping with him... I just don't want to be just his good time girl. I guess that's yet to be seen whether that is his intention.

OMG you guys....
I just right this second got a text from Maverick (it's morning in my time zone). No ****ing way. It's been a couple weeks. So you don't have to re-read the earlier posts, we met online, talked for over a month total very frequently, went out once, had a great date, he was excited, he wanted to see me again.. BUT he flaked on me a few weekends ago, he apologized the next day, I was short in my response... then he left to fly across the world for work and I never heard any more about it, until fast forward almost three weeks later. I think he must've been traveling since... but I don't know.
I deleted his number soon after that incident but didn't delete the thread, so when he texted I could see the conversation and that identified him! Wow, I really wasn't expecting that. I haven't responded yet.
He just asked how have I been. Clearly there was another person in the picture. I understand... that happened to me before where I had to tell him no, I can't meet you (because I was seeing A). Hmm.
I'm still interested, but not so thrilled and excited after he flaked last time. I guess it wouldn't hurt to respond just hello... I don't have to see him any time soon.
In fact, I probably won't agree to because R is on "standby" as my gf says.

Ha, I'm not surprised he popped up again.

I feel like you should be multidating so I'd say hang out with him again, in a casual (and no sex!) situation. However after blowing you off, he probably doesn't deserve a date.... if you see him, it has to be only as a distraction to R and M had better work for the opportunity to see you.

February 4, 2015

Ha, I'm not surprised he popped up again.
I feel like you should be multidating so I'd say hang out with him again, in a casual (and no sex!) situation. However after blowing you off, he probably doesn't deserve a date.... if you see him, it has to be only as a distraction to R and M had better work for the opportunity to see you.

Phhfft... I'm surprised.

Absolutely no sex. I would never sleep with one guy one day and another the next. (in a very extreme situation!)

I think it's acceptable to go out with him and get to know more in a non-physical way...

But yes, M would be a distraction from R at this point, while R is still proving (or not proving) what he's after and if it's on the same level as me. Plus, I'm still getting to know R anyway to decide if it's a good fit for ME.

And yes... M is just re-opening the lines of communication.. and you are damn right he's got to work to see me. After last time, I'm not so eager at all.

I sure as hell won't be doing what I did before that night by agreeing to meet him on short notice, responding to his texts all day every day, and building it up in my head. He's back to square one as far as I'm concerned.

Edited February 4, 2015 by venusishername

February 4, 2015

Don't give him the time of day.

Seriously.

I travel overseas once a year. And interstate a couple of times a year.

I met a guy in a hostel. Just once! He happened to be from my area. We parted ways, I went home and he continued to travel the world. Guess what? He only met me once, but he managed to send me a facebook messaged just about every day! He was really interested in me and despite being super busy travelling the world, AND the fact he wasn't the type to want or need a relationship - he STILL looked forward to our messages!!!

I am selfish by nature and when travelling I sleep in and do whatever I want - I like to keep busy exploring, I don't like to be tied down to another person especially if I just met them once or twice! HOWEVER: If I am excited about a guy I meet and they were keen to date me, I would get my butt to a computer ( ALL HOSTELS and especially hotels have them), and I would facebook them a few times a week.

If I meet someone even just once and they excited me and I REALLY want to date them, you can bet that I will FEEL like talking to them, I will WANT to send them a message on facebook and I would be all excited when they responded!

People are simple!

When a man wants something he goes after it; he is 100% lukewarm about you Venus, he thinks you are attractive and cool so yeah, of course he wants to meet up with you again! Company with a pretty lady and the prospect of sex and good conversation!

IF he saw you as a serious dating prospect... he would have kept in touch with you!

NO ONE is too busy to shoot someone a lousy facebook message IF they are excited about someone they meet, even just once!

STOP bothering with men who are clearly not thrilled to have met you! And yes, some men DO get really excited about women they meet - some women have that affect on them for sure! You don't want to start a relationship out with a man who thinks " meh, I can take or leave her, I am going to explore my options and get back to her if nothing better comes along"

Please I know how "travelling" people work. I am one of them. I have met men who travel; they ALL called OR texted OR facebooked me me daily.

February 5, 2015

When a man wants something he goes after it; he is 100% lukewarm about you Venus, he thinks you are attractive and cool so yeah, of course he wants to meet up with you again! Company with a pretty lady and the prospect of sex and good conversation!

IF he saw you as a serious dating prospect... he would have kept in touch with you!

STOP bothering with men who are clearly not thrilled to have met you! And yes, some men DO get really excited about women they meet - some women have that affect on them for sure! You don't want to start a relationship out with a man who thinks " meh, I can take or leave her, I am going to explore my options and get back to her if nothing better comes along"

Ok, Leigh, you crack me up. Here you go again by someone getting 'blown away' or totally smitten after one meeting, etc. It's just not realistic. Sure, a peaked interest of course after meeting. I'm not excusing him, but he did do that. He was traveling before and he contacted me daily. Then we met, and he continued the daily contact, then he flaked, he probably met someone else, had me in mind, travelled some more, came back two weeks later because he's still interested (which I never doubted).

I'm not here to argue with you; you have your opinion on these things!

Your bolded part above, especially: WELL, OF COURSE he wants to spend time with a pretty lady and have great conversation and fun, maybe a kiss.. maybe more eventually... well DUH! Isn't that what all people go on dates for!!!?? I think that's the definition of dating, isn't it!?

Go figure, that's exactly the same thing that draws me to the men I want to see too! Cute guy, fun to be around, good conversations, get to try some new restaurants and get a great meal and drinks to boot! Cool! Sign me up. I think the problem with a lot of women (including myself in the past) is that we think that men have this higher playing hand or something. Look, we are all on the same playing field! There's no reason to think that men have all this power and are the ones who ultimately call the shots.

I'm not TOTALLY SMITTEN with anyone right off the bat. Yes, I get excited about someone more than others, sure. But I don't think: OMG, I need to be with him. I MUST HAVE HIM within a couple meetings!

You have this romanticized view of it. I'm not knocking it, it's just your viewpoint.

I texted yesterday with M here and there. Like I said, he's back at square one with me now. Let's see what happens. Maybe he'll just drop it off again. No harm, no foul. If he wants to see me again (which it sounds like he does) he can ask. I won't be hinging my schedule on him like before.

R: ****. I went into this totally detached and casual. Now I'm starting to get antsy and feel 'attached'. Sex and the feeling of 'connection' I suppose. I did this to myself and tbh, I was NOT expecting to actually LIKE the guy. But I do. I spent the night with him Sunday night (our second night together within a week). Said goodbye the next morning, he kissed me on the lips and even pulled me in for a hug, nothing strange about it. Was sure it wouldn't be long. Haven't heard since.

First time (sex) was last Thursday night. He contacted me Friday (how was your day?) Saturday (how was your time with family? Are you available? No.) Sunday (are you available? Yes). So naturally, the thought never crossed my mind that he'd pull back like this. Again, I'm trying to NOT let it get to me!!!

I sent a text after work last night just to say hello, how's your week going? I genuinely wanted to know, and to hear from him. He never responded!! I'm sure he WILL, but still, I'm surprised. My first thought is: He's with someone. He's purposely ignoring me. But I stop myself. It still doesn't feel good though. It makes me want to put the walls back up. He kind of did a good job taking the walls down and making me feel comfortable to do that. I'm not thinking the worst. It just sucks. But I don't think I'm ok with sleeping with someone and not hearing for days.

He's been giving off some subtle indications of wanting a real romantic relationship, and not just casual and free of emotion. He seems more 'available' in that way to opening himself, and engaging in real relationship activities and connection. It's possible that misread it, and he treats all women that way. But those signals made me want to open up and give him a chance. I kept fighting it and finally gave in...I just want to know that it wasn't in vain. I'm ok with things not working out for lack of compatibility or whatever. It just seemed to be starting to take off, so I'm feeling let down right now.

Like I said, I was so iffy about him and now I'm craving that prospect of romance and well, intimacy...and now it's kind of 'off the table' so to speak.

With V-day coming up, I know I said before that now I'll have a date (thinking of R) But I can bet that I'm going to be alone. It sucks. I meet so many men. I am very frequently being approached, looked at, asked out, admired, what have you. I really do have good intentions. I know I'm worthy and a good person and deserve happiness. There's nothing wrong with me. My main issue is getting overly attached to one person too soon in my mind, and sometimes being vulnerable to acting out on that. But I'm working on those things! This current 'situation' with R is a good test and lesson for me to work on those things.

I feel like I just keep having to throw it against the wall and hopefully something will eventually stick

Feels like the same thing I'm going through in finding a new job. All these interviews... nothing comes of it.

Edited February 5, 2015 by venusishername

February 5, 2015

He's been giving off some subtle indications of wanting a real romantic relationship, and not just casual and free of emotion. He seems more 'available' in that way to opening himself, and engaging in real relationship activities and connection.

Like what? Do you have some specifics.

Forever, from time immemorial, men have led women on with that relationship carrot. The only piece of advice my mother ever gave me about relationships was, "be careful, because a man will say he loves you just to sleep with you." Now, this is not true across the board, obviously, but I guess for a single piece of love advice, it's a good one.

I'm not going to sit here and lecture you about whether or not you had sex with this guy too soon—hell, I slept with my BF on date three—the only thing I will say is that IF you're going to engage in early sex, you HAVE to know that what you're feeling now (the let down, that awful anxiety) is a POSSIBLE consequence. I didn't know if my guy was going to stick around after we had sex. In fact, I half-expected him to disappear. So imagine my surprise when he came back.

I don't know at which date you guys got physical. One? Two? Three? Four? All I know is that if YOU WANT romance, intimacy, and connection, the BEST tactic (not the ONLY one) is to hold off for a time. TELL them you're interested, but that you DO NOT have sex without connection, without exclusivity. A man who is TRULY into you won't mind waiting for a time. Doing this gives you a chance to weed out men who are just looking for sex. You're looking for more than "subtle indications," you want crystal-clear intentions.

Again, you don't HAVE to play it that way. It's not like that tactic is completely risk-free either, because, as my mom so helpfully pointed out, you can get an "I love you" from a man and he'll still use you. But again, if you choose the riskier method of early sex, you MUST know that this will be a possibility, and then not be surprised when it happens.

February 5, 2015

Let's drop the whole sex debate (I am imagining us in the corner of a lounge seated comfortably on plush chairs, a half-empty bottle of Bordeaux and some olives neglected atop the center table). It's not about sex. As we've established, if a guy likes you he's not going to care when you do it. The issue is, to borrow a delicate IT euphemism, between the chair and the keyboard.

I'm not saying there's something wrong with you; I just think you are not very good at reading people, yourself included. How can you say something like this:

R: ****. I went into this totally detached and casual. Now I'm starting to get antsy and feel 'attached'. Sex and the feeling of 'connection' I suppose. I did this to myself and tbh, I was NOT expecting to actually LIKE the guy.

when this is exactly what has happened with every prior guy in this thread and the thread before that, and everyone told you this would happen? It's either a hell of a lot of denial or, more likely, a complete lack of emotional awareness. That same lack might explain why you keep misinterpreting these guys as being interested when all their actions suggest otherwise. I guess what I'm saying is you shouldn't pursue a career in poker. Or acting.

The funny thing about my fantasy bar scenario is that if I knew you in real life, I'm sure I'd understand you better. As it is you're obviously pretty, intelligent, charming, and fun. By all accounts you should have your pick of the lot! Instead you keep ending up with these guys who are only moderately interested and it's very hard to understand why. It's not as simple as "you have sex too soon" or "you come off as desperate". You just don't ever seem to be on the same page as any of these guys. I think it comes down to a fundamental emotional disconnect.

It might help to spend a little while trying to be honest with yourself and your feelings. Accept that you currently can't control your emotions when you meet new guys. Think more about what's standing between you and your goals. And most of all, just relax. Don't be too hard on yourself.

Okay, ladies, the next round is on me...

February 5, 2015

Like what? Do you have some specifics.

Well, just comparing to the other guys I've dated... he kept persisting, kept asking me out even when I blew him off/said no, and even ignored him once or twice. When I finally agreed, he said 'Really?!' Like he was super happy about it. Most guys just looking for something meaningless wouldn't do that, right? At least not in my experience.

The nights I spent with him, he was VERY romantic about it.. (I feel corny writing about it).. but he did the whole candles, we got in the shower together.. the morning(s) after.. he was getting ready for work, I came into his bathroom to brush my teeth and he said something like 'now you're seeing my morning routine' (because I hadn't before, obviously). It just seemed very intimate. Maybe he's just a romantic guy and that adds to it. But I love that! I need romance in my life!

Also, he's probably the most affectionate man I've encountered. In bed and in public too. The times we've been together he's nearly constantly touching me, in an affectionate way, not a sexually aggressive way. He has no problem giving me a kiss in public, and if we walk he puts his arm around me or I take his arm. Held my hand while we were at the bar having a drink. I can't remember the last time I've done that with someone! I think it was with my last boyfriend! I really like it!

He picked me up in his car (these days it's all about 'meet me here' or whatever else casual, how sad) for our second date.

Other things like: 'what are WE doing tonight?', he even threw in a little 'babe' once. (I know that doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot, just little signs I notice, that's all).

I've noticed that he's mentioned his past relationships once or twice (just in vague conversation) so he seems to have 'normal' experience in serious committed relationships.

I'm just noticing these differences compared to the men I've dated over the past few years after my boyfriend (who was equally as affectionate and persistent as R has been with me).

I also don't sense any game-playing tactics or dishonesty and unavailability on his part. If he says something, he has followed through. If he asks me to get together, he follows through on it, if I say no, he asks for another time. He hasn't flaked yet, and seems to work around my schedule, actually.

I'm not going to sit here and lecture you about whether or not you had sex with this guy too soon—hell, I slept with my BF on date three—the only thing I will say is that IF you're going to engage in early sex, you HAVE to know that what you're feeling now (the let down, that awful anxiety) is a POSSIBLE consequence. I didn't know if my guy was going to stick around after we had sex. In fact, I half-expected him to disappear. So imagine my surprise when he came back.
But again, if you choose the riskier method of early sex, you MUST know that this will be a possibility, and then not be surprised when it happens.

I know, you are totally right. It's a risk. I can relate to how you're feeling right now about half-expecting him to disappear. Ugh, this is terrible, this feeling that he hasn't even returned my text from last night! It's almost a whole day later! (which I find pretty strange). I thought it wouldn't hurt to initiate. He's always been the one to do it.

In any case, at first I was keeping a distance...but now he kinda 'hooked' me just a little

I hope to talk to him again soon... ahhh but then that's the risk I took.

February 5, 2015

Let's drop the whole sex debate (I am imagining us in the corner of a lounge seated comfortably on plush chairs, a half-empty bottle of Bordeaux and some olives neglected atop the center table). It's not about sex. As we've established, if a guy likes you he's not going to care when you do it. The issue is, to borrow a delicate IT euphemism, between the chair and the keyboard.

It's either a hell of a lot of denial or, more likely, a complete lack of emotional awareness. That same lack might explain why you keep misinterpreting these guys as being interested when all their actions suggest otherwise. I guess what I'm saying is you shouldn't pursue a career in poker. Or acting.

Too funny, love the wine and olives scene. Could go for that right now...

Thanks... I'm not sure I understand what you mean.. and I want to be clear: are you saying that there is a clear emotional difference between my own feelings of whatever they are and the guys I date? Just checking to be sure I understand. Also, I am certain that they are interested... I'm not sure if interest is the issue either! I'm so confused.

I guess I was doing a good job being detached (with R) and now it's kind of biting me in the butt. I guess that's the issue I need to work on, like you say. I think it's the promise/prospect of a relationship, intimacy, being a couple, romance, security, marriage, family, etc. that makes me so friggin eager about it and probably more attached early on than they might be.

The funny thing about my fantasy bar scenario is that if I knew you in real life, I'm sure I'd understand you better. As it is you're obviously pretty, intelligent, charming, and fun. By all accounts you should have your pick of the lot! Instead you keep ending up with these guys who are only moderately interested and it's very hard to understand why. It's not as simple as "you have sex too soon" or "you come off as desperate". You just don't ever seem to be on the same page as any of these guys. I think it comes down to a fundamental emotional disconnect.

Ha! Definitely could never pull off poker or acting.

I don't think I'm misinterpreting their being interested. It is very clear that they are interested. What drives their interest is questionable.

Everyone I know says the same about me, like I could have my pick of the lot and why am I still single?! My mom is so sweet, she thinks men are simply intimidated by my beauty and brains. Only something a Mom would say too

I know I've been focusing in on the wrong men in the past.. maybe I'm getting closer? Maybe it's just a matter of timing. I wasn't in the same place a year ago as I am now, not even close! So maybe it's also a matter of having more patience and also not getting discouraged.

Think more about what's standing between you and your goals. And most of all, just relax. Don't be too hard on yourself.

This reminds me of one of my best guy friends. He's been single right along with me for years... until just recently. I was so surprised to hear he finally found someone and I'm really happy for him because he deserves it.

He'd tell me 'all I want is someone to go home to, eat food together, and watch movies with. I don't want to go out, I don't want to hang out at the bar all the time trying to fill a void, I just want a partner.' (He's much older than me and has fundamentally different lifestyle than me, otherwise I'd date him!! He's in love with me and we are very close).

Anyway, he kept either pushing women away and was oblivious, or hooking up with crazy chicks and dumping them soon after. I told him to stop taking whatever falls in his lap and go after what he WANTS! I also told him he's not going to find someone to eat food and watch movies at home BY GETTING TAKE OUT AND BEING AT HOME. I told him to take a more active role in it.

He now has a gf and is "totally in love" and told me he stopped taking whatever fell in his lap and went after what he wanted. Hey, if it worked for him (who we all considered a lost cause), maybe I should try that too.

On another note, I just now heard from R, end of work day (24 hours later). He said he's been completely swamped, how am I doing?

He's a busy guy full time career and also grad school nights and weekends, I understand.. I've been there myself.

Chilling out. No big deal. Playing it cool. As my gf says: 'keeping it light and frothy'

Edited February 6, 2015 by venusishername

February 6, 2015

Hi Venus,

I'm not sure your standards are high enough. in regards to the signs you've mentioned, sure they can be signs of interest or they can just as easily mean nothing.

- persisting to go out with you even after you said no - the way i see it his got nothing to lose so he keeps asking you on the off chance that you may say yes. in fact if a guy really likes you and you blew him off, he would be hurt and less inclined to ask you out again so quickly. sounds like to me R likes a challenge and doesn't take no for an answer, not anything to do with his interest in you.

- kissing you in public, holding hands and putting his arm around you - they are all really normal couply things to do

- other things you mentioned are just really small and i think you are reading too much into them.

Please precede with caution, it is too early to make a judgement on R just yet. but i think replying to your text 24hr later shows lukewarm interest

February 6, 2015

I'm not sure your standards are high enough. in regards to the signs you've mentioned, sure they can be signs of interest or they can just as easily mean nothing.

- persisting to go out with you even after you said no - the way i see it his got nothing to lose so he keeps asking you on the off chance that you may say yes. in fact if a guy really likes you and you blew him off, he would be hurt and less inclined to ask you out again so quickly. sounds like to me R likes a challenge and doesn't take no for an answer, not anything to do with his interest in you.

- kissing you in public, holding hands and putting his arm around you - they are all really normal couply things to do

Please precede with caution, it is too early to make a judgement on R just yet. but i think replying to your text 24hr later shows lukewarm interest

I wasn't going to nitpick and respond in detail about it...

Losangelena just asked me to give some specifics, which is why I listed them.

I'm trying my best not to get all wrapped up in it and overanalyze. I'm doing ok with it. Just been slightly antsy the past couple days since we saw each other.

As far as standards and the 'normal couply things to do' as you say'.... it's sad, but I haven't been treated that way by someone in years (the affection aspect). I haven't felt an iota of intimacy with a man in YEARS. So while it may be standard to YOU, it's not standard to ME for years. It used to be that way with my ex. It's been that long.

Even A who I was seeing around the holidays, maybe just a little 'glimmer' of that affection. R seems to be the first one who has done this with me and I admit, it's really nice. I suppose that has little indication though on whether he wants to pursue a real relationship with me though. Like I said, just something I noticed.

As far as him being persistent and not having anything to do with his interest...come on.. that's pretty silly. I value myself more than to think that 'well, I'm not that special'. He probably does this with all the girls'. If I had that mindset, that would be indicative of low self-esteem. I'd like to trust more than that.

Anyway, we texted yesterday evening a bit. He said he's been swamped, how's my week going, I told him about a new yoga membership and I've been doing that. He said that's great, he wishes he had time to go with me. !

Well.. I thought that the 24 hour delayed response was questionable too.. it usually is... but he actually does sound busy. So, I'm not going to get my panties in a twist about it. Yes, he may be lukewarm. He may just be swamped like he said... full time job plus grad school? That will tie you up and take you off the grid for days at a time.. I've been there myself and have seen it with my own friends. So I'm really not taking it to heart. We like each other and I'm sure we'll be seeing each other again.

Maverick has been contacting me for the past couple days now; yesterday and the day before. He said he was traveling for 3 weeks past....now is back home. Which is why he's reaching out to me. I'm not so thrilled about seeing him again.. but I will, if he asks. Not so eagerly though.

February 6, 2015

Let's drop the whole sex debate (I am imagining us in the corner of a lounge seated comfortably on plush chairs, a half-empty bottle of Bordeaux and some olives neglected atop the center table). It's not about sex. As we've established, if a guy likes you he's not going to care when you do it. The issue is, to borrow a delicate IT euphemism, between the chair and the keyboard.

I'm not saying there's something wrong with you; I just think you are not very good at reading people, yourself included. How can you say something like this:

For someone who gives such great advice, your take on sex really surprises me. Especially in Venus' case. Sleeping with men too soon is clearly a problem for her as she keeps doing it, the men slowly fade away after, and then she is hurt.

Agreed that she seems to be attracted to the wrong people, seems to have difficulty figuring out what they're after, etc. but changing those attitudes takes time. One thing she can do RIGHT NOW is take sex OFF the table when entering new dating relationships.

Venus, I hate to be so blunt but taking 24 hours to reply is no good. Either he saw your message and it wasn't memorable enough not to forget to respond, or he was with someone else. Either way, it's not good. I also don't think it's a good sign that after your first time having sex, he tried to see you ASAP, texted consistently, then faded off for a few days. When a guy has a date and sex with a girl he likes, he'll keep in contact, but to be respectful and not appear desperate, will set up the next date a few days from the last one. (Rather than setting it up for the next day). Trying to see you right away after sex kind of indicates he just wanted more sex.

Also, you talk about 'interest' the way Leigh talks about being 'blown away' haha. Of course these guys have some interest in you. They wouldn't have gone out with you otherwise. Stop wondering "is he interested?" and start wondering "HOW interested is he?" and/or "What is he actually interested in?"

Edited February 6, 2015 by lissvarna

February 6, 2015

Agreed that she seems to be attracted to the wrong people, seems to have difficulty figuring out what they're after, etc. but changing those attitudes takes time. One thing she can do RIGHT NOW is take sex OFF the table when entering new dating relationships.

Ok, I see where you're coming from in your POV... BUT I'm going to have to say it again...that NO MATTER IF THERE IS SEX OR NOT, IF IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK OUT, IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK OUT. If a guy is JUST out to get laid and you do or you don't sleep with him, HE'S GOING TO DISAPPEAR ANYWAY. I could TRY taking it off the table in the future, sure. Why not?

But look: for example M. Granted we barely know each other and have only met once. But let's say hypothetically, I slept with him on date one.

He STILL would've flaked on me, he STILL would've been quiet for two weeks. See what I'm sayin?

If a guy's going to disappoint, sex doesn't change that.

ALSO, you see how no matter if sex happens or not, I STILL GET DISAPPOINTED.

I'll be blunt... sometimes I'd rather get laid and just hope it works out than NOT and hope it works out. (If the opportunity presents itself).

Venus, I hate to be so blunt but taking 24 hours to reply is no good. Either he saw your message and it wasn't memorable enough not to forget to respond, or he was with someone else. Either way, it's not good. I also don't think it's a good sign that after your first time having sex, he tried to see you ASAP, texted consistently, then faded off for a few days. When a guy has a date and sex with a girl he likes, he'll keep in contact, but to be respectful and not appear desperate, will set up the next date a few days from the last one. (Rather than setting it up for the next day). Trying to see you right away after sex kind of indicates he just wanted more sex.

I agree, the 24 hour delay sucks. In my experience it has been an indication of fading off (But not necessarily).

If I dissected every moment and action and word of the men I date, they could NEVER be perfect saints and do everything right.

I'm not following your bolded part above. He didn't try to see me ASAP after the first time. It was a couple days after. Geez, if he DIDN'T want to see me right after, you'd probably argue that's a bad sign too. Can't win for losing! But fading off for a few days after the second time...yeah I'm not thrilled...

I have to remind myself that I went into this from day one with him suspecting he was just out to get laid. I also went into it saying 'this is totally casual and that's all it ever will be' (I think)...' After getting to know him a little more... I thought 'hmm, maybe I misjudged'.. well, that's yet to be seen on both ends....

So for that reason, I am really not taking this to heart too much.

I know these things are pure risk. I will say though that I would like to see him again.

I know these guys are interested. That's not the issue.

You know what?! I can't imagine it is THAT difficult to have a real relationship. I refuse to believe every man I encounter in a romantic capacity is just out for something casual.

February 6, 2015

As far as standards and the 'normal couply things to do' as you say'.... it's sad, but I haven't been treated that way by someone in years (the affection aspect). I haven't felt an iota of intimacy with a man in YEARS. So while it may be standard to YOU, it's not standard to ME for years. It used to be that way with my ex. It's been that long.

As far as him being persistent and not having anything to do with his interest...come on.. that's pretty silly. I value myself more than to think that 'well, I'm not that special'. He probably does this with all the girls'. If I had that mindset, that would be indicative of low self-esteem. I'd like to trust more than

Maverick has been contacting me for the past couple days now; yesterday and the day before. He said he was traveling for 3 weeks past....now is back home. Which is why he's reaching out to me. I'm not so thrilled about seeing him again.. but I will, if he asks. Not so eagerly though.

Hi Venus

I'm sorry to hear you haven't been treated well in the past few yrs I can relate. But then it's even more important that we set our standards high, some one once told me that if you have high standards people will rise to meet it. If you maintain low standards people will also meet it, maybe stoop to. Courtesy of wisdom from this forum.

In fact you need to have the mindset ' he probably does this with all the girls'

It's not low self esteem it's a healthy level of skepticism. This is also the way you stay uninvested. There 2 birds with one stone. Please believe this.

Finally I'm not sure giving M a second chance is the way to go. You still way invested in him and he obviously doesn't care enough to contact you in 3 weeks.

He has proven to be not trustworthy.

February 6, 2015

Ok, I see where you're coming from in your POV... BUT I'm going to have to say it again...that NO MATTER IF THERE IS SEX OR NOT, IF IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK OUT, IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK OUT. If a guy is JUST out to get laid and you do or you don't sleep with him, HE'S GOING TO DISAPPEAR ANYWAY. I could TRY taking it off the table in the future, sure. Why not?
But look: for example M. Granted we barely know each other and have only met once. But let's say hypothetically, I slept with him on date one.
He STILL would've flaked on me, he STILL would've been quiet for two weeks. See what I'm sayin?
If a guy's going to disappoint, sex doesn't change that.
ALSO, you see how no matter if sex happens or not, I STILL GET DISAPPOINTED.
I'll be blunt... sometimes I'd rather get laid and just hope it works out than NOT and hope it works out. (If the opportunity presents itself).

I agree, the 24 hour delay sucks. In my experience it has been an indication of fading off (But not necessarily).
If I dissected every moment and action and word of the men I date, they could NEVER be perfect saints and do everything right.
I'm not following your bolded part above. He didn't try to see me ASAP after the first time. It was a couple days after. Geez, if he DIDN'T want to see me right after, you'd probably argue that's a bad sign too. Can't win for losing! But fading off for a few days after the second time...yeah I'm not thrilled...

I have to remind myself that I went into this from day one with him suspecting he was just out to get laid. I also went into it saying 'this is totally casual and that's all it ever will be' (I think)...' After getting to know him a little more... I thought 'hmm, maybe I misjudged'.. well, that's yet to be seen on both ends....
So for that reason, I am really not taking this to heart too much.
I know these things are pure risk. I will say though that I would like to see him again.

I know these guys are interested. That's not the issue.
You know what?! I can't imagine it is THAT difficult to have a real relationship. I refuse to believe every man I encounter in a romantic capacity is just out for something casual.

Obviously I disagree with you.

If a man was only out for sex from the beginning, then yes, doesn't matter when you sleep with him.

But some men who are relationship minded can lose interest after early sex even when they were originally interested in more. From my experience and friends' experiences, this happens somewhat often.

February 7, 2015

Let's drop the whole sex debate (I am imagining us in the corner of a lounge seated comfortably on plush chairs, a half-empty bottle of Bordeaux and some olives neglected atop the center table). It's not about sex. As we've established, if a guy likes you he's not going to care when you do it. The issue is, to borrow a delicate IT euphemism, between the chair and the keyboard.

I think I love you.

Venus, I couldn't agree more with CA2CZ's post. You're not being honest with yourself. In fact, you spend a lot of time (and many walls of text) arguing yourself out of your own good instincts and self-knowledge. You KNOW it's not a good sign when someone takes more than a day to text you back. You KNOW someone's not relationship material when he leaves the country and doesn't bother to check in. You KNOW you're not just out there to casually bang whatever comes your way. And yet you try to insist that hey, it's all casual! No biggie! We're all just doing whatever and following our bliss!

It's just not true. You want a real, serious relationship and THAT IS OKAY. It just means that you need to set higher standards and be honest about them.

And yeah, I'm now starting to agree that you, Venus, need to start holding out on sex. Make them wait, and make yourself wait. Otherwise you just get attached and that isn't good. I understand needing to get laid - trust me, I do - but in your case, I don't think you can do it without getting attached. You end up with sex goggles on and lose your ability to see clearly.

February 7, 2015

For someone who gives such great advice, your take on sex really surprises me. Especially in Venus' case. Sleeping with men too soon is clearly a problem for her as she keeps doing it, the men slowly fade away after, and then she is hurt.

I've disagreed with your previous posts about her having sex too early because I don't think it's the sex or the timing thereof that's the problem. However, I completely agree that Venus can't have casual sex no matter how much she may try, and putting that off the table will help her stay in control. But I don't think her having early sex has anything to do with the men fading away.

Also, you talk about 'interest' the way Leigh talks about being 'blown away' haha. Of course these guys have some interest in you. They wouldn't have gone out with you otherwise. Stop wondering "is he interested?" and start wondering "HOW interested is he?" and/or "What is he actually interested in?"

This is dead-on. Yes, a guy who texts you every now and again is technically interested, but when it's not the kind of interest you want it doesn't matter. A guy who has one or two hookups and then ignores you (B), a guy who can go out with you for a few weeks then be perfectly happy to never speak to you again (A), a guy who doesn't mind canceling dates at the last second and dropping off the face of the planet (M)---none of these guys are interested in a relationship with you, so for all intents and purposes you can safely say they aren't really interested, period. I had written up a post about this last night involving an analogy with cheap crumb cake and fancy scotch but lissvarna said it better.

If I dissected every moment and action and word of the men I date, they could NEVER be perfect saints and do everything right.
I'm not following your bolded part above. He didn't try to see me ASAP after the first time. It was a couple days after. Geez, if he DIDN'T want to see me right after, you'd probably argue that's a bad sign too. Can't win for losing!

This is an overly defensive response. We are not a bunch of harpies looking for every possible flaw in every man you meet. We're not saying he should be perfect, we're saying he should be consistently interested, and a guy who goes a few days without speaking and then takes 24 hours to respond to a "how are you" text does not seem very interested. Has he made plans for you guys this weekend?

At this point I think you should schedule something nice for yourself next Saturday to distract you from the whole Valentine's Day pressure accumulating in your mind. Don't forget to go to CVS the day after for 50% candy!

February 7, 2015

If a man was only out for sex from the beginning, then yes, doesn't matter when you sleep with him.
But some men who are relationship minded can lose interest after early sex even when they were originally interested in more. From my experience and friends' experiences, this happens somewhat often.

I totally agree with this. And as much as it's well and good to say "well, then those guys need to not sleep with women early on", we can't control others' behavior. We can control our own.

Personally, I don't believe the process of men losing interest after sex is a always conscious one. I don't think it's the madonna/whore no-win hypocrisy rearing its ugly head. I think there is a biological component to it. Sex involves hormone release, and hormones can drive behavior. Talk to me when I have PMS - I'm super fun

To me, men and women are biologically different, with different evolutionary drives, and I accept that. I don't believe we live in a utopian society, where everyone "should" act in ways that are not gender driven. I don't blame men for wanting to have sex; I'm not offended by that. Men like having sex. I like having sex. What is under my control? Myself. My choices. I can choose to accept the reality of the world around me (rather than what it should be) and protect my interests through my own actions and choices.

lissvarna mentions her guy friend who doesn't feel attraction or interest after he sleeps with someone even if he is looking for a relationship. Why is that? He sounds like he's a good guy, and it's not a conscious choice or a judgment on the women. He just can't make himself continue to pursue a woman after he's slept with her, because he has lost a drive to do so.

Posters' responses to this were that this guy needs to change his own behavior. Okay, but he's not here looking for advice, and no one in this world can control the behavior of another person.

So what would we say to the girl who was about to go on a date with lissvarna's friend? He's smart, handsome, interesting, and attracted to her. What do we say to her acknowledging the reality that some men lose interest after having sex early on before they feel attached to the woman in other ways? What would be the best strategy for her if she wants a relationship and is genuinely interested in lissvarna's friend?

She can control her behavior, not his. So the best advice to her would be "delay sex with this guy". That's the reality of the situation, not our utopian ideal of sex shouldn't matter. Every guy you date might be like lissvarna's friend. And if the right girl comes along and makes him wait until he's invested emotionally, she might snag herself a good guy.

Sure, plenty of guys don't disappear after sex. Plenty do. That's the reality. I've seen it happen to others, I've had it happen to me, I know men who go through this same process. I know men that don't. We, as women, never know what type of guy we're going on a date with (unless someone like lissvarna has set us up with her friend and gave us the insider information beforehand.)

that NO MATTER IF THERE IS SEX OR NOT, IF IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK OUT, IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK OUT. If a guy is JUST out to get laid and you do or you don't sleep with him, HE'S GOING TO DISAPPEAR ANYWAY. I could TRY taking it off the table in the future, sure. Why not?

Venus, anytime you need to resort to formatting to get your point across, you should do a self-check if you're being defensive. You and Leigh 87 both need to stay away from the BIU buttons. To me, it's a giveaway that you both are out of control. And I have also mentioned the parallels between her hencetoforth unsuccessful dating style of being "blown away" that she vehemently defends (and purposefully uses for attention about her attractiveness and worth) and your focus on the man's "interest" in you. Someone else mentioned that parallel earlier and you should pay attention. Multiple posters saying the same thing, and all...

Okay, now onto the content of your point above . Just as you can argue that point, I can argue the opposite end of things: A guy who wants to stick around for more than sex will stick around even if sex is off the table. (formatting shout-out to you and Leigh).

There are women here who slept with their boyfriend/husband early on and they still committed to one another. I can argue that those guys would likely have stuck around anyway even if sex had been put off for some time. I won't argue what the world "should be" because that's not under my control.

I get it, you like sex. I like it too. Sex is awesome! But I recognize that I get feelings of attachment when I have it. It's not conscious, it's that blasted oxytocin kicking in. Also, I know that when I'm in a relationship, sex is my favorite way to feel close to my partner. As a result, my last boyfriend and I still had a sex life resembling rabbits a few years in.

So wouldn't it make sense, then, that sex still makes me feel close to someone even when we're not in a relationship? I can't separate feelings of attachment from having sex.

It is what it is. It doesn't make me less of a feminist, it doesn't make me less sex-positive, I just recognize it's an issue for me as an individual. And that if I want to find a relationship, I need to hold off on sex so I don't get attached before I've really sussed out the guy's character and his intentions. I acknowledge that my behavior, and the guy's behavior, is at least partially driven by hormones. And I risk a loss of interest from the guy when I choose to sleep with him, but if I've waited until attachment in other forms is present, then there is less chance of a disappearing act or premature attachment on my part. That is the reality of the dating world to me, and I get to choose what I do within this dating world, and I choose to act in alignment with what is best for me.

If a guy's going to disappoint, sex doesn't change that.
ALSO, you see how no matter if sex happens or not, I STILL GET DISAPPOINTED.

I'll be blunt... sometimes I'd rather get laid and just hope it works out than NOT and hope it works out. (If the opportunity presents itself).

But how does this work out if you're like me and feel attachment by having sex? If you held off on sex, wouldn't you be feel less disappointed because you'd have less invested in each guy you date if they do leave and disappoint you?

And, by the way, I'm not trying to say that you are absolutely like me. I don't know you. Despite your insistence that you don't get attached, you give off signs of being that way (discussed below). I mention myself so much because I'm trying to normalize it for you, not because I want to believe you're like me. Society at large, especially for millennials, is all "Girls can have sex just like guyz! Girl power!" I think there are some individuals that can, but I think there are many that cannot, myself included. It doesn't make me less of a feminist, it doesn't make me less powerful, it doesn't make me judge women who have sex quickly. It's a personal choice for myself. I just accept it about myself and adjust my dating style accordingly so I don't get attached to guys that will go on to disappoint me. Sure, they still might disappoint me, but I only care about taking care of myself, and it sure does hurt a lot less if I haven't slept with them yet.

I don't know you in real life. But you do demonstrate behavioral changes even in your posting style depending on what is happening with the men in your life. When you are feeling disappointed - even when R didn't respond for 24 hours - your writing is well thought out and you are open to feedback.

As soon as you heard from R, you shifted. It's back to hyper, wordy, "in yo' face! Imma do what I wunt!!1!!" defensive responses. Like "see, I told you guys he was interested!1!" And then all sorts of cognitive dissonance happens.

It's like these guys are not only providing you with validation about yourself, but you want to use their actions to prove something to us, too. I can't begin to say what that is, but I'd imagine it's something about your attractiveness or worth. I think you hate the fact that we're able to dissect you and your behavior, and there is a perfectionist part of you that thinks you have to be perfect to be worthy of love and that's why you get so defensive toward us when a guy eventually shows up again. Does perfection = worth? I don't think so. Do you?

I maintain that you allow your internal state to be buffeted about by external events. You do not seem to have a solid self-worth that is only mildly impacted by external factors. We've discussed my favorite word "interest" and how you should only care about interest when it has to do with your interest level in these men. And lately, here you are again, trying to suss out R's interest level and M's interest level and what they want with nary a consideration or mention of what you want for yourself.

What is it that you want with these guys? M is more clear-cut. He has shown signs of - yes, your favorite! - interest, but not respect. He blew you off with no explanation. He did not treat your time as if it were as important as his. The possibility of introducing doubt about his intentions did not matter to him. This is not respectful courting behavior. Therefore we can conclude that he is not a serious prospect for you. What he wants doesn't match what you want. So why bother with him? Why are YOU interested? It looks like validation to me.

Then there's R. The guy who invited you over for wine and Netflix for a first date. Your reaction to that was great. True to yourself, you told him no and demonstrated skepticism about a guy who would ask you to do that for a first date. What R heard was "Nope, you've got to work for sex with me. I'm not just going to hand it over on the first date." And thus he worked. He gave you the consistency and romantic gestures. And he got sex. R's no dummy. And now he is not as consistent.

R didn't respond to a text from you for 24 hours. Think of your guy friends. When they really want to be with a girl, and are really hoping for a relationship, do they do that? Let her go for an entire day before they respond? Would they want to risk her thinking less of him for not responding? No, they wouldn't.

Now that you have heard from R you are back to making excuses for him. You've clearly got something to prove to yourself, and to us, based on his actions. You made excuses just a few pages back for A and M when they started distancing or disappointed you.

Does making excuses for men help you or harm you? I think it's the latter. You are currently making excuses for R.

Going into seeing R, you insisted that it was for fun and you weren't going to get attached. And here we are - attached, open to a future with him, looking for indications of R's interest, and making excuses. Please go back and read through your posts since you gave R a shot and try to pinpoint when the shift happened. You need some self-awareness and I think holding yourself accountable and reviewing your past beliefs via words on the page is a great way to introduce it to yourself.

Well.. I thought that the 24 hour delayed response was questionable too.. it usually is... but he actually does sound busy. So, I'm not going to get my panties in a twist about it. Yes, he may be lukewarm. He may just be swamped like he said... full time job plus grad school? That will tie you up and take you off the grid for days at a time.. I've been there myself and have seen it with my own friends. So I'm really not taking it to heart. We like each other and I'm sure we'll be seeing each other again.

I, right now, am in the life situation that R is in. Full time work, full time grad school toward a terminal degree. I assure you that this excuse that you are making for R does not apply to me.

If a guy I like texts me, I answer. It doesn't matter if I'm writing my final papers totaling 53 pages without abstracts and references, it doesn't matter if I am studying for an exam, it doesn't matter if I have to read 200 pages of material for my class the next day. I have my phone on me and texting takes 10 seconds, so I choose to respond or not respond. The reason is simple: I don't pull disappearing acts if I care what the guy thinks of me.

I am really busy with work and grad school (in fact, I shouldn't be writing this response to you since I've got other stuff I need to do.) My waiting 24 hours to respond to someone indicates that I am actively choosing to distance myself. If there's a chance I could go back to being interested in him, what he does in response to me matters. Undying loyalty, interest and availability from a guy I was already lukewarm about might make me prone to continue distancing myself. What makes me second guess my distancing? A guy who becomes skeptical of me based on my behavior and demonstrates his skepticism through his actions.

How have you responded to R after he pulled a disappearing act and eventually showed up? Old faithful, sitting there making excuses for him and as available as ever whenever he decides to show up. You are doing this because you've got a lot invested in him now that you've slept with him and have turned him into a commitment contender. Your choice of actions are that of someone who really cares what the guy thinks of her, rather than acting in ways that uphold what she wants for herself. This is one place I can pinpoint that could have been a turning point in the "guys pulling a disappearing act" mystery. The other one was sleeping with R.

What would happen if you backed way off, and stopped responding to him consistently? It would show that you demoted him in your priorities. R might think, "Hmm, Venus is acting differently. What could have happened? Maybe it was because I stopped texting her and she started to doubt my intentions." If he wants a relationship with you, he'd shape up quickly and make sure he was consistent from now on because he wouldn't want to risk you doubting him. If he didn't care what you thought about him, he'd be thankful you took the hint and continue to pull disappearing acts. Making excuses for his behavior is totally unnecessary, because his own actions will show you what's up. Returning to skepticism with him (because you care more about what you want for yourself than you do what he thinks of you) would have been an opportunity to see, via his own actions, whether he is trying to pursue a relationship with you. That opportunity is now lost because you jumped right back into things. "It doesn't matter how you choose to treat me, R! I'm here when you want me!" is what you conveyed via your actions by not mirroring his distancing. You demoted yourself because you so want an outcome with this guy, versus accepting that the reality of his choices indicate he may not be a contender for that outcome.

I think there are several things you can do right now to change your dating outcomes. These are given to you in the spirit that no one can control the actions of another, just ourselves:

Taking sex off the table until there is emotional attachment on both ends.
Not having sex with a guy whose actions indicate that he doesn't care if you doubt his intentions. Think of guy friends and how they behave when they are truly into a woman and want a future with her versus how they act if they are just spending time with a woman or if they just want sex.
Acting in ways that are true to yourself and how you want to be treated. (ex: backing off because of emerging doubt because a guy pulled a small disappearing act)
Demonstrating through your actions that you have high standards and aren't afraid to turn around and walk away from a guy who doesn't meet them.
Leaving guys in the dust once their behavior indicates they won't/can't give you what you want (ex: M - why are you bothering with him?)
Having a solid self-worth that doesn't change depending on external events.
Rethinking where you are finding these guys to date. (Tinder?) If you want to settle down, why not choose a format known to attract people who also want to settle down? Paid sites like match, eharmony, etc?

(Sorry. I know I wrote a book. That's why I'm able to live through 53 pages of final papers!)

Edited February 7, 2015 by idoltree

February 7, 2015

Sorry, double post!

February 7, 2015

tl;dr don't have sex until you're exclusive

February 7, 2015

You're not being honest with yourself. In fact, you spend a lot of time (and many walls of text) arguing yourself out of your own good instincts and self-knowledge. You KNOW it's not a good sign when someone takes more than a day to text you back. You KNOW someone's not relationship material when he leaves the country and doesn't bother to check in. You KNOW you're not just out there to casually bang whatever comes your way. And yet you try to insist that hey, it's all casual! No biggie! We're all just doing whatever and following our bliss!
It's just not true. You want a real, serious relationship and THAT IS OKAY. It just means that you need to set higher standards and be honest about them.

Yes, that is right. Thank you for reminding me. So simple. I do know these things. I guess I've tried to be 'casual' and breezy about it because it makes me feel safer or something.. less vulnerable. If I convince myself I'm cool with it and detached (as I've been told to remain in the beginning) I feel like I'm protecting my heart. But you're right... the reality is I'm not being true to myself. Maybe it's time to really shift my mindset and hold true to my ground for what I really want. (DUH). Clearly I have a pretty thick head. I appreciate you trying to blast through it. You are spot on, Sagamore. I take this to heart very much.

I understand needing to get laid - trust me, I do - but in your case, I don't think you can do it without getting attached. You end up with sex goggles on and lose your ability to see clearly.

Oh yes, R absolutely put my sex goggles on. I'll be honest, probably the best I've had.. very hard to stop thinking about. Phenomenal. I'd like him to put the goggles on me every day. Wow.

However, I completely agree that Venus can't have casual sex no matter how much she may try, and putting that off the table will help her stay in control. But I don't think her having early sex has anything to do with the men fading away.

You know, I used to be able to do this. I guess now that I'm ready for a serious relationship again I can't because I actually am interested in pursuing a relationship with the men I'm choosing to sleep with these days. (I know that doesn't sound so good... the past few years I've been totally unavailable to something substantial... until now.) So yes, I think that is an important shift for me to make. I know this has been discussed in detail, and I don't really want to talk too much about this. But I agree, I need to shift my behaviors to get what I want.. or to get CLOSER to what I want anyway.

Yes, a guy who texts you every now and again is technically interested, but when it's not the kind of interest you want it doesn't matter.

Ok. Well, I guess I go into each situation thinking: we'll see how it plays out and develops (on both ends). You never know right away until things like this start to happen. This is a process that takes time, unfortunately.

Has he made plans for you guys this weekend?

Well, what do you think? No. It's Saturday afternoon. Could still happen. But quite a shift from every weekend past this month. Surprise, surprise. He went from being very persistent and trying to pin me down over and over and consistently to where the hell is he? The thing is, I'm sure he'll be back. We do like each other. BUT... now my doubts are flaring up again. I am going to listen to them.

Venus, anytime you need to resort to formatting to get your point across, you should do a self-check if you're being defensive. You and Leigh 87 both need to stay away from the BIU buttons.

ok, fair enough! I still can't figure out how to multiquote correctly. Ha!

I don't know you in real life. But you do demonstrate behavioral changes even in your posting style depending on what is happening with the men in your life. When you are feeling disappointed - even when R didn't respond for 24 hours - your writing is well thought out and you are open to feedback.
As soon as you heard from R, you shifted. It's back to hyper, wordy, "in yo' face! Imma do what I wunt!!1!!" defensive responses. Like "see, I told you guys he was interested!1!" And then all sorts of cognitive dissonance happens.
It's like these guys are not only providing you with validation about yourself, but you want to use their actions to prove something to us, too. I can't begin to say what that is, but I'd imagine it's something about your attractiveness or worth. I think you hate the fact that we're able to dissect you and your behavior, and there is a perfectionist part of you that thinks you have to be perfect to be worthy of love and that's why you get so defensive toward us when a guy eventually shows up again. Does perfection = worth? I don't think so. Do you?

Yes, I definitely have always struggled with perfectionism. This is an issue I discovered about myself just a year ago. Yes, I equate attention and praise in general to my worth and attractiveness. This is my 'flaw' so to speak. It's pretty much plagued me my whole life. I don't know about being 'perfect' = worth... but yes, in a general, I do feel this way. Something to work on. I have a great book to pick up again on this subject.

What is it that you want with these guys? M is more clear-cut. He has shown signs of - yes, your favorite! - interest, but not respect. So why bother with him? Why are YOU interested? It looks like validation to me.

Absolutely. No respect. His attention and interest WAS validating for me. Now I'm actually tired of talking to him. I'll say this: when he contacted me the other day out of the blue, (and has been daily since!) I thought I'd give him a chance to redeem himself by apologizing and asking me out again, trying to make it up to me. BUT HE HASN'T DONE THAT! A couple days have gone by and he's just giving crumbs that mean nothing. I thought I WOULD give him a chance, but he just didn't take it. I thought of a perfect response to give him when he texts me next with bland thoughtless crumbs of interest.

Here it is:

"M, I really did like you until you flaked on me that night without even a simple text to tell me tonight's not going to work after all. I really am looking for something more honest and substantial. I do hope you can understand that." (I probably won't say this. I'm just not sure what to say, if anything at all. Should I just ignore him from now on?) I feel like I'm such an honest person I need to say something and not just totally drop off the face of the earth. (Even if other people do that, I don't).

Then there's R. The guy who invited you over for wine and Netflix for a first date. Your reaction to that was great. True to yourself, you told him no and demonstrated skepticism about a guy who would ask you to do that for a first date. What R heard was "Nope, you've got to work for sex with me. I'm not just going to hand it over on the first date." And thus he worked. He gave you the consistency and romantic gestures. And he got sex. R's no dummy. And now he is not as consistent.

SECOND DATE! Not first! I know. It doesn't really matter, does it?

Well, on the bright side, we both had unbelievably great sex out of it!

And hey, now he knows if he wants that again, it won't be so easy. That is, unless I start throwing myself at him and chasing... which I won't do.

Now that he's pulled back, I'm right back to being skeptical and holding at an arm's length. (Seriously, I'm not just saying that). I do mean it.

You are currently making excuses for R.
Going into seeing R, you insisted that it was for fun and you weren't going to get attached. And here we are - attached, open to a future with him, looking for indications of R's interest, and making excuses.
My waiting 24 hours to respond to someone indicates that I am actively choosing to distance myself. If there's a chance I could go back to being interested in him, what he does in response to me matters. Undying loyalty, interest and availability from a guy I was already lukewarm about might make me prone to continue distancing myself. What makes me second guess my distancing? A guy who becomes skeptical of me based on my behavior and demonstrates his skepticism through his actions.

Ok. I don't mean to do that. I was just stating facts. It's clearly my rationalizing the REASON I haven't heard much from him this week as compared to each week before, on the daily, persistent. I know it's a crock of ****.

What I don't understand is why a person would actively CHOOSE to distance themselves. Ok, I get it. Not sure why he would do that, but whatever. I don't know what he thinks. Eh.

I like what you said about what makes you second guess the distancing via the other person being skeptical based on behavior and demonstrating skepticism through actions. I was doing that in the beginning (being skeptical and at an arm's length.) He noticed, and even mentioned it! Told me I was hard to read. Wanted to 'get a read'... So, he successfully started melting down my walls a bit and I thought, 'hey he's not so bad'. This is nice. He's being super affectionate and a gentleman, he's actually sweet. I'll give him a chance!'

Despite what you think, I'm not totally available to him and never really have been. No undying loyalty here. I'm not (and never did) going to drop everything to see him. I did this before with other guys I've posted about, I KNOW. I am not going to do it this time with R. Making changes with this current situation.

How have you responded to R after he pulled a disappearing act and eventually showed up? Old faithful, sitting there making excuses for him and as available as ever whenever he decides to show up.

Hold on. Yes, I admit I started making excuses as to why he backed off (work and school, busy). But I AM NOT available as ever whenever he decides to show up. Where is that coming from? If he contacted me today/tonight.. I wouldn't respond immediately or see him. How is that being available as ever? After we slept together the first time, I wasn't available two days after when he wanted to see me. Not available as ever.

Next time, I certainly am not going to run to him. I really am back to square one being skeptical with him. DESPITE THE FACT THAT I HAVE MY SEX GOGGLES ON AND I'M FANTASIZING ABOUT ANOTHER NIGHT WITH HIM... I don't want to put myself back in his bed yet. (I might not ever go back there). Because... I want more than just that.

What would happen if you backed way off, and stopped responding to him consistently? It would show that you demoted him in your priorities. R might think, "Hmm, Venus is acting differently. What could have happened? Maybe it was because I stopped texting her and she started to doubt my intentions." If he wants a relationship with you, he'd shape up quickly and make sure he was consistent from now on because he wouldn't want to risk you doubting him. If he didn't care what you thought about him, he'd be thankful you took the hint and continue to pull disappearing acts. Making excuses for his behavior is totally unnecessary, because his own actions will show you what's up. Returning to skepticism with him (because you care more about what you want for yourself than you do what he thinks of you) would have been an opportunity to see, via his own actions, whether he is trying to pursue a relationship with you.
That opportunity is now lost because you jumped right back into things. "It doesn't matter how you choose to treat me, R! I'm here when you want me!" is what you conveyed via your actions by not mirroring his distancing.

I like what you are saying here. Look, after the other day when he responded and we exchanged a few texts.. that was it! I haven't (and I won't) reach out again. Why? Because I AM back to being skeptical. I don't WANT to be skeptical and negative and closed off... but I think that's my better bet right now.

You suggest what if I backed way off and stopped responding to him consistently? I did this in the beginning. I ignored him, didn't respond quickly at all, told him 'maybe', and displayed my hesitation.

Now would be a good time to revert to that. SO tempting to respond and be available for more romance and hot sex... but not in my best interest. IF he's a good guy and he would like to prove that he's interested in pursuing something real with me... ok, now I'm going to sit back and watch.

Do you really think the opportunity is lost? I don't. I am mirroring his distancing after the other day. I'm not conveying 'I'm here when you want me, baby! I don't care how you treat me!' The opportunity has not yet come up this week after that exchange happened. It may or may not.

After the first time, he contacted me daily... until he saw me again, I came back to him, horny as hell and ready for another few rounds of delicious sex (Sorry, it's just the truth). He was showing me consistent contact after, asking how my family event was, just checking in, etc. I thought that was good and showing respect and sincerity. So I came back to him.

SINCE then, I was the one to reach out and say hello (rare occasion), and the exchange that followed just isn't enough to get me to happily come back to him, like last time. That's why I say, I don't think it's a lost cause. On the other hand, if he's a jerk and just got what he wanted out of me than it doesn't matter. But if there is a potential and he'd like something more (as I do)... I DO understand how important it is for me to maintain the boundaries.

Like I mentioned before, he has exhibited more trustworthy qualities and indicators of wanting a relationship compared to every other guy I've been involved with lately. I didn't mention a few things here that he said.

To me they were positive signs of a man who wanted a girlfriend, and he mentioned his future children that he wanted, has wanted to take these trips to such and such (romantic destinations) with a woman but hasn't had that opportunity lately. He took me to a place where I needed to show ID and list my name on a record, he said not to worry, if they gave us a problem with me getting in there, he'd just tell them I was his girlfriend.

He seemed sincere about wanting/available for something real. That's the impression I got in the several times we've spent together. So I began to open up and trust that he was a good contender for relationship potential. Yet to be seen I guess. I believe there are a lot of men out there like this in their thirties. They're certainly not all *******s and just out to play around.

As HARD as it's going to be when he pops up... I'm going to have to keep that distance. If he's interested, he will prove it... consistently. He didn't do that this past week. I reiterate: (to myself, mainly): R is back to square one. And more importantly, I will (and am) demonstrating that by my own distancing now. It's hard because I want sex and attention and the potential for a relationship and romance.... but I'm going to keep at it. I deserve to be treated well.

Acting in ways that are true to yourself and how you want to be treated. (ex: backing off because of emerging doubt because a guy pulled a small disappearing act)
Demonstrating through your actions that you have high standards and aren't afraid to turn around and walk away from a guy who doesn't meet them.
Leaving guys in the dust once their behavior indicates they won't/can't give you what you want (ex: M - why are you bothering with him?)
Having a solid self-worth that doesn't change depending on external events.
Rethinking where you are finding these guys to date. (Tinder?) If you want to settle down, why not choose a format known to attract people who also want to settle down? Paid sites like match, eharmony, etc?

Idoltree, thank you. I appreciate your posts and the time you take SO MUCH. You are awesome, so many of you are here.

1. Done ('doing') with R. Discussed in detail above. Yummy sex and affection aside, I want more than that. If he can give that consistently, great! But this past week.... I'm not as excited about him anymore, just like the beginning. I'd like to give him a chance, maybe he's a good guy! I hate to think the worst. Tonight and the following week will be a good test of me keeping my distance. I can do this!

2. Done with M. I'm done with bothering with him. Like I said, not sure if I should just ignore or say something so he gets the point. It's too bad. He's a real catch on paper...

3. I deleted Tinder last night. I disagree that it's just a hookup magnet. There are a lot of guys on there who are clear from the start that they want something substantial (hey, M said that to me, actually). BUT... I decided I need a break.

February 8, 2015

He went from being very persistent and trying to pin me down over and over and consistently to where the hell is he? The thing is, I'm sure he'll be back. We do like each other. BUT... now my doubts are flaring up again. I am going to listen to them.

His behavior has changed. You definitely should pay attention to that, even if he comes back. You should have doubts. Like with M, do not get so excited if he shows up again that you jump.

We need to talk about mirroring, Venus. My issue with R was that he didn't reply to you for 24 hours, but when he did, you were there for a text exchange. That is being overly available. You admitted elsewhere it was because you wanted him to ask you out so you could have sex. You are getting in your own way.

I know you think it's just a text, but it's the principle of the matter. If someone takes a long time to reply to you, you take a long time to reply to them. Always always always mirror, except when they're like M and you're having rapid fire conversations day in and day out before you've even met. In that case, do not mirror. Reply about a third as much and space them out.

Should I just ignore him from now on?) I feel like I'm such an honest person I need to say something and not just totally drop off the face of the earth. (Even if other people do that, I don't).

With M, I suggest you either ignore him or send him something only if he asks you out. It's up to you. I wouldn't give him too much of an explanation, because it just gives him reasons to argue. A "I'm looking for something serious, and it's obvious you're not, therefore I'm not interested. Good luck." should do it. Don't give him specifics so that he can argue.

Well, on the bright side, we both had unbelievably great sex out of it!

And the sex goggles are on. The attraction and longing are off of the charts. Honestly, I'm not sure this is a good thing.

And hey, now he knows if he wants that again, it won't be so easy. That is, unless I start throwing myself at him and chasing... which I won't do.
Now that he's pulled back, I'm right back to being skeptical and holding at an arm's length. (Seriously, I'm not just saying that). I do mean it.

This applies to replying to his texts, too.

I was just stating facts. It's clearly my rationalizing the REASON I haven't heard much from him this week as compared to each week before, on the daily, persistent. I know it's a crock of ****.

It's not facts. I am as busy, or busier if he's just in a master's program, and I am able to communicate with men I'm interested in. It is you trying to rationalize why his interest isn't waning, because you take it personally and think it is a statement to your worth.

What I don't understand is why a person would actively CHOOSE to distance themselves. Ok, I get it. Not sure why he would do that, but whatever. I don't know what he thinks. Eh.

Because of that thing you like to pin your hopes and dreams upon - interest. He's lost it. Either totally, or just some of it.

I like what you said about what makes you second guess the distancing via the other person being skeptical based on behavior and demonstrating skepticism through actions. I was doing that in the beginning (being skeptical and at an arm's length.) He noticed, and even mentioned it! Told me I was hard to read. Wanted to 'get a read'... So, he successfully started melting down my walls a bit and I thought, 'hey he's not so bad'. This is nice. He's being super affectionate and a gentleman, he's actually sweet. I'll give him a chance!'

Have high standards.

What you did in the beginning doesn't matter now.

Despite what you think, I'm not totally available to him and never really have been. No undying loyalty here. I'm not (and never did) going to drop everything to see him. I did this before with other guys I've posted about, I KNOW. I am not going to do it this time with R. Making changes with this current situation.

Good. And why are you doing that? Not because he's backing off and perhaps losing interest, but because his backing off does not match what you want for yourself. You are identifying an issue and being proactive rather than reactive.

Hold on. Yes, I admit I started making excuses as to why he backed off (work and school, busy). But I AM NOT available as ever whenever he decides to show up. Where is that coming from?

When he did send you a text after disappearing, you were there to respond to him. You had a conversation about yoga.

Not being available would be not responding to a guy who has left you hanging. Making him sweat. Letting him see that you have high standards and are busy.

DESPITE THE FACT THAT I HAVE MY SEX GOGGLES ON AND I'M FANTASIZING ABOUT ANOTHER NIGHT WITH HIM...

Oh, good god - caps lock.

Do you really think the opportunity is lost? I don't. I am mirroring his distancing after the other day. I'm not conveying 'I'm here when you want me, baby! I don't care how you treat me!' The opportunity has not yet come up this week after that exchange happened. It may or may not.

You aren't mirroring him if he hasn't contacted you. We're still in early days here of dating, where the guy is pursuing. So you only get the chance to mirror when he contacts you.

I don't think it's a lost cause. On the other hand, if he's a jerk and just got what he wanted out of me than it doesn't matter.

I don't agree that men losing interest after sex is because they're jerks and got what they wanted. Again, here we go with the women thinking it's a conscious decision on their part.

Most men I know aren't dogs who act interested in women until they get sex then disappear. That's not how it works, even if they lose interest after sex. I maintain it is a genuine loss of interest to pursue.

It is not him "being a jerk." He made no promises of commitment to you and you chose to sleep with him. You knew what you were getting into, and if there is anyone to be mad at, it is yourself. You knew there was a risk he'd disappear. You went into it eyes wide open, at least you said so. And here you are calling him a jerk and feeling attached. You insisted you could maintain perspective, it would just be fun for you. It seems you don't know yourself very well at all. Now you're wondering if he'll come back. You're hoping a guy who is showing signs of trying to fade away will come back. But he's already faded away, even if he does come back, which doesn't bode well for his being a candidate for what you want.

I'm sorry if that's hard to hear, but to me, it could not be more clear that you did this to yourself.

Like I mentioned before, he has exhibited more trustworthy qualities and indicators of wanting a relationship compared to every other guy I've been involved with lately.

Well, based on the ones you've been involved with, that's not necessarily a very high bar.

To me they were positive signs of a man who wanted a girlfriend, and he mentioned his future children that he wanted, has wanted to take these trips to such and such (romantic destinations) with a woman but hasn't had that opportunity lately. He took me to a place where I needed to show ID and list my name on a record, he said not to worry, if they gave us a problem with me getting in there, he'd just tell them I was his girlfriend.

He seemed sincere about wanting/available for something real. That's the impression I got in the several times we've spent together. So I began to open up and trust that he was a good contender for relationship potential. Yet to be seen I guess. I believe there are a lot of men out there like this in their thirties. They're certainly not all *******s and just out to play around.

Venus, you need to be more skeptical of these guys. They say some pretty words, contact you consistently, and you're all in. I maintain you cannot possibly know their true intentions if you are sleeping with them early on. Because their intentions will only be proven with time passing by.

And more importantly, I will (and am) demonstrating that by my own distancing now. It's hard because I want sex and attention and the potential for a relationship and romance.... but I'm going to keep at it. I deserve to be treated well.

You are not distancing unless you hear from him and choose not to respond. Simply not getting in touch at this stage of the game does not count.

And you want sex and attention and the potential for a relationship and romance from a guy who is worth it, who wants to be with you. And the best way to find it is not to give him what he wants at the speed with which he wants it. To not take men seriously until they have proven themselves to you. To know that even if a guy is a good guy, if you sleep with him too early, there is a chance he will lose interest. (I know we all want the utopian society where this isn't an issue, but it is. A lost interest and R lost interest. What changed between when they were interested and when they weren't? Sex. So either having sex was behind them losing interest, or your own actions after having sex was behind them losing interest, or a combination of the two. Hmm... what's the answer here to this problem? What could it be...)

I deleted Tinder last night. I disagree that it's just a hookup magnet. There are a lot of guys on there who are clear from the start that they want something substantial (hey, M said that to me, actually). BUT... I decided I need a break.

I'm on Tinder. I haven't met anyone off of it (currently trying to explain to a guy 8 years younger than me that he reason I don't want to meet him is not because I am "intimidated by his age" LOL) but I am also smart enough not to take a guy at his word that he wants something substantial. Plenty of guys can say that, they can go on some dates, but the proof is in consistency over time, isn't it?

February 8, 2015

P.S. Have you gone back and read your own posts yet? I've mentioned it twice but you never respond.

You really need some more self-awareness, and reading about yourself and your patterns will help give it to you. Look for the moments when you get attached, yet insist that you aren't. Look for when you make excuses. Look for when you overuse caps lock, bold, italics, and underlining. Look for when you are saying one thing and doing another. Look for when you hyper-focus on what they're thinking and it never occurs to you to prioritize what you're thinking. Look for when you contradict yourself.

If you find this uncomfortable, pretend like it is a case study and you are reading about someone else. Pretend like you are going to give her advice and need to fully understand her before you do.

February 8, 2015

Just for your information,

I don't need to be blown away by a guy to date him.

A switch flips for me upon first meeting a man.

I have to be attracted enough/feel enough of a connection and get he vibe that we are both really happy and excited to have met one another.

Then I pursue things. So two groups of guys for me : men I am excited about meeting, and the men I am indifferent about. I go for the butterflies men, sure, but I don't think what I outlined ^^ is unrealistic. Some guys are attractive and seemingly awesome enough in the personality, for you to date again. Plain and simple. I feel chemistry as long as I feel a mutual sexual attraction and we get along well.

I never said I had to be blown away!

As for early sex - I avoid it now. It has helped me.

For instance - I met two guys since Christmas, one just the other night, who I felt attracted to/ into enough to date. However, I didn't sleep with them because I didn't want to give it up, only to realise we didn't click enough on a romantic level. I stopped early sex when it dawned on me recently that most men I feel the fire for, wont be good long term partners, so I better wait around for a few months to see if we are a match.

Things are different, people don't need relationships and therefore people are more selective and a guy is less inclined to settle for a woman just because he is very attracted to her and they share great chemistry. Therefore early sex is far from a sure sign that things will work out since people don't settle down as readily as they once did.

It is also a personal choice; I feel hallow and 'wrong' if I give it up to a guy and I find out he actually didn't feel that into me after all, once he got to know my personality:sick: which takes months to know a woman's personality.

I fool around after a date or two but never past hands for a good while - because for me, this level makes me feel comfortable and I have managed avoiding having slept with a few men that I didn't ultimately date for more than 4 dates!

February 8, 2015

Just for your information,

I don't need to be blown away by a guy to date him.

A switch flips for me upon first meeting a man.

I have to be attracted enough/feel enough of a connection and get he vibe that we are with really happy and excited to have met one another.

Then I pursue things. So two groups of guys for me : men I am excited about meeting, and the men I am indifferent about. I go for the butterflies men, sure, but I don't think what I outlined ^^ is unrealistic. Some guys are attractive and seemingly awesome enough in the personality, for you to date again. Plain and simple. I feel chemistry as long as I feel a mutual sexual attraction and we get along well.

I never said I had to be blown away!

As for early sex - I avoid it now. It has helped me.

For instance - I met two guys since Christmas, one just the other night, who I felt attracted to/ into enough to date. However, I didn't sleep with them because I didn't want to give it up, only to realise we didn't click enough on a romantic level. I stopped early sex when it dawned on me recently that most men I feel the fire for, wont be good long term partners, so I better wait around for a few months to see if we are a match.

Things are different, people don't need relationships and therefore people are more selective and a guy is less inclined to settle for a woman just because he is very attracted to her and they share great chemistry. Therefore early sex is far from a sure sign that things will work out since people don't settle down as readily as they once did.

It is also a personal choice; I feel hallow and 'wrong' if I give it up to a guy and I find out he actually didn't feel that into me after all, once he got to know my personality:sick: which takes months to know a woman's personality.

I fool around after a date or two but never past hands for a good while - because for me, this level makes me feel comfortable and I have managed avoiding having slept with a few men that I didn't ultimately date for more than 4 dates!

I wish there was a single woman on this planet that didn't require the butterflies. Just one.

February 8, 2015

I wish there was a single woman on this planet that didn't require the butterflies. Just one.

Most women don't but a fair amount do want to actually be excited about their partners.

We don't all want a companion badly enough to essentially date a "friend" just cos he is such a nice guy.

Sorry but it isn't unrealistic - I don't have a stupid check list, I don't need a fit guy, I don't need him to have a 6 pack, I don't need him to be hot or have a high income.

I feel the spark for the average guy, plenty often so yeah, I don't require a huge or unrealistic check list in order for me to feel "butterflies"

When it rains it pours

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