When it rains it pours

[Leigh 87]

I have to say the mirroring thing works wonders.

 

I have never been rejected when I mirrored.

 

It worked.

 

I have dated a lot and blown it with a lot of men but boy, the mirroring thing is so easy and pleasant to follow.

 

Things didn't work out in the end but for the time we were discovering whether or not we were a good fit, the fact I let the guy lead and took just as long to reply to his texts as he did to me, worked wonders it really did.

 

The guy I last did it to felt he had ample space, he actually wanted to talk tome and yeah, he was left guessing a little, it was NOT a given that I was 'really into him' because I didn't wear it on my sleave.....

[Derek79]

Most women don't but a fair amount do want to actually be excited about their partners.

 

We don't all want a companion badly enough to essentially date a "friend" just cos he is such a nice guy.

 

Sorry but it isn't unrealistic - I don't have a stupid check list, I don't need a fit guy, I don't need him to have a 6 pack, I don't need him to be hot or have a high income.

 

I feel the spark for the average guy, plenty often so yeah, I don't require a huge or unrealistic check list in order for me to feel "butterflies"

 

I have a nice suburban house, nice car, stable job but not a single woman has ever felt butterflies toward me. Not one. Not even close. Every time I go out with one I can just see it in her eyes that I'm not exciting her. I try to be nice and pay but half the time she's out of there within 25 minutes. I honestly believe its impossible for any woman to feel the butterflies towards me.

[Loscats]

I have a nice suburban house, nice car, stable job but not a single woman has ever felt butterflies toward me. Not one. Not even close. Every time I go out with one I can just see it in her eyes that I'm not exciting her. I try to be nice and pay but half the time she's out of there within 25 minutes. I honestly believe its impossible for any woman to feel the butterflies towards me.

 

Learn how to tell an interesting story about anything. Learn cocky comedy. Be honest, ethical and authentic with women

[Loscats]

How to scare her away?

 

And here is the problem. Do not think "damn, I am going to scare her if I will say that or that.." - ofc it depends on situation. Be more confident. I just want to say that if you are boring/not funny, than it does not really matter if you have nice house, job or a car

[venusishername]

His behavior has changed. You definitely should pay attention to that, even if he comes back. You should have doubts. Like with M, do not get so excited if he shows up again that you jump.

Mmmm....well.... to your first sentence about behavior changing. Not terribly, but a bit, yes.

Gotcha to your last sentence.

We need to talk about mirroring, Venus. My issue with R was that he didn't reply to you for 24 hours, but when he did, you were there for a text exchange. That is being overly available. You admitted elsewhere it was because you wanted him to ask you out so you could have sex. You are getting in your own way.

? I wanted him to ask me out so we could have sex? (I mean of course I want sex).. but I don't recall writing this. I had no intention of seeing him that night. I'm still trying to understand your point. I was available for an exchange. Well yes, we were communicating with each other. Am I supposed to not communicate? I'm not sure if you are suggesting to completely ignore or delay the response in kind. You are contradicting yourself in what you say below. I just want to understand what you mean.

I know you think it's just a text, but it's the principle of the matter. If someone takes a long time to reply to you, you take a long time to reply to them.

I DO know about mirroring and I always try to do this. I've done a good job with R I think. I usually will wait several hours to respond, or whenever I feel like it without a rush. In the past with other guys, no. I was available, I was clearing my schedule for them, it was never on my time. I HAVE learned to shift my behaviors. I got to put this into practice last night when R contacted me! Yay me!

With M, I suggest you either ignore him or send him something only if he asks you out. It's up to you. I wouldn't give him too much of an explanation, because it just gives him reasons to argue. A "I'm looking for something serious, and it's obvious you're not, therefore I'm not interested. Good luck." should do it. Don't give him specifics so that he can argue.

Hmm. I don't know. We'll see. Haven't heard.

And the sex goggles are on. The attraction and longing are off of the charts. Honestly, I'm not sure this is a good thing.

Yeah baby . My gosh, I can't help it. There is a LOT of attraction and as we've learned with our recent experience(s), sexual compatibility. I think it's a great thing to feel so hot for someone(sometimes) :/

Until you're trying to be cautious like I am.

Because of that thing you like to pin your hopes and dreams upon - interest. He's lost it. Either totally, or just some of it.

STOP with the 'interest'! Of course he's 'interested'. He wouldn't continue to contact me and want to see me for over a month consistently if that wasn't true. I don't want to hear the word 'interest' in this thread anymore; same with 'blown away'

What you did in the beginning doesn't matter now.

No? Why not? It's not too late to go back to the attitude I had in the beginning. That's what I'm trying to do now, with him or with whomever else comes along!

Good. And why are you doing that? Not because he's backing off and perhaps losing interest, but because his backing off does not match what you want for yourself. You are identifying an issue and being proactive rather than reactive.

Thank you. That is right!

When he did send you a text after disappearing, you were there to respond to him. You had a conversation about yoga.

Ok. What's the problem? I wasn't going to ignore him. I responded over an hour plus later or something like that. He had asked how I've been doing this week. I said I've been doing hot yoga and really liking it. I really don't think that's going to be a deal breaker thing. I do understand where you're going with your point though. But I don't see a huge deal in exchanging a few texts of small talk and stopping there.

Not being available would be not responding to a guy who has left you hanging. Making him sweat. Letting him see that you have high standards and are busy.

Ok. I wouldn't call it 'leave me hanging'. That's not how I see it.

Anyway, you might point out that I didn't wait long enough to reply, but he contacted me yesterday evening, fairly early. I was at a birthday event, busy obviously. I didn't see it until later and when I was on my way home near midnight I replied, literally mirroring what he said to me. Basically it was a hello and what are my plans? It was late when I finally responded so I didn't expect to hear back last night. I was so short. I gave him zero information. I basically said 'hey'. I know that's lame and I may as well have said nothing.

I will say this. He has contacted me and asked me out every Saturday for about six weeks now except once where he went out of town. This week it wasn't in advance so I didn't see him after all. Maybe he'll figure it out again and ask me in advance for this coming week like he's done before. If not, too bad. That's what I require. I am busy and my time is valuable.

Oh, good god - caps lock.

SEX GOGGLES

 

You aren't mirroring him if he hasn't contacted you. We're still in early days here of dating, where the guy is pursuing. So you only get the chance to mirror when he contacts you.

Ok. Putting this into practice. I think I meant mirroring 'the distance' by not being so available. Mirroring the availability? Does that makes sense?

 

It is not him "being a jerk." He made no promises of commitment to you and you chose to sleep with him. You knew what you were getting into, and if there is anyone to be mad at, it is yourself. You knew there was a risk he'd disappear. You went into it eyes wide open, at least you said so. And here you are calling him a jerk and feeling attached. You insisted you could maintain perspective, it would just be fun for you. It seems you don't know yourself very well at all. Now you're wondering if he'll come back. You're hoping a guy who is showing signs of trying to fade away will come back. But he's already faded away, even if he does come back, which doesn't bode well for his being a candidate for what you want.

Oh yes, I know. I'm not calling him a jerk. I don't think he is. I thought he might disappear for sure! The attachment I'm feeling is because I have sex goggles on. All I see when I see his name pop up on my screen is SEX. It's just that good.

Honestly, I really did feel that it was all fun and I could keep detached until about halfway in. I started to see he wasn't so bad, I should give him a chance. He was persistent and he kinda started to wear down my guard. I know I did this to myself. I am not blaming him. I take full responsibility for my actions! I'm a big girl.

Well, based on the ones you've been involved with, that's not necessarily a very high bar.

I know, it's sad. It's been YEARS since I had any type of real intimacy with a man. It's been YEARS since a man walked with his arm around me or held my hand, or told me to come to him and put my head on his chest, or joined me under my umbrella to hold and kiss me, or even spooned me. He's been so affectionate when we've been together it makes me realize how lonely I've been. I know these seems like normal things that all men and women do... but to me, it means something more important and special. I haven't been receptive to it until now. I think this is why I'm struggling with dating because I want to make that shift into intimacy and I've pushed it away for a long time, chasing Mr. Unavailables. Now I'm trying to break those habits because I'm ready. Old habits die hard.

I also think this is why I tend to have sex soon... because I want that feeling of intimacy, even if it's fleeting

Because their intentions will only be proven with time passing by.

I know. I KNOW.

You are not distancing unless you hear from him and choose not to respond. Simply not getting in touch at this stage of the game does not count.

Let me understand again. Are you suggesting that I just ignore him when he contacts me? Why would I do that? I thought you were saying delayed response. I don't feel ignoring is appropriate, unless someone was being a total jackass. I think you may need to use BIU and CAPS for me to get your point.

And you want sex and attention and the potential for a relationship and romance from a guy who is worth it, who wants to be with you. And the best way to find it is not to give him what he wants at the speed with which he wants it. To not take men seriously until they have proven themselves to you. To know that even if a guy is a good guy, if you sleep with him too early, there is a chance he will lose interest. (I know we all want the utopian society where this isn't an issue, but it is. A lost interest and R lost interest. What changed between when they were interested and when they weren't? Sex. So either having sex was behind them losing interest, or your own actions after having sex was behind them losing interest, or a combination of the two. Hmm... what's the answer here to this problem? What could it be...)

I think it was partly my actions with A after sex. I also think we were just not compatible, so it wouldn't have worked anyway. With R, that's yet to be seen, it's currently playing out. I don't agree with you that R has lost 'the I word'. I love the 'speed' portion of what you say. I think that's very important. Sex is already on the table though. I don't think that will CAUSE a man to leave. It's a matter of compatibility and timing, and boundaries.

I am also smart enough not to take a guy at his word that he wants something substantial. Plenty of guys can say that, they can go on some dates, but the proof is in consistency over time, isn't it?

Yes, it takes time. In my experience, it usually becomes clear around the 6-week mark. This goes for all relationships I've been in, those that have made it to that point. It's just my own little benchmark that seems to have held pretty true each time.

 

 

P.S. Have you gone back and read your own posts yet? I've mentioned it twice but you never respond.

No. I will soon though. Maybe later tonight. Thank you.

Edited February 8, 2015 by venusishername

[venusishername]

I just want to say that I do think it's that I'm not fixated on the person in question of the moment...

It's what they represent and have potential for offering me in the things I want and need. I tend to equate sex and the I word, and pursuit as the potential for love and romance that I crave so much.

That's why I have a tendency to cling to it.

It's hard not to. And I guess that's ok that I feel that way.

I do think it's just about finding the right person who wants to have those same things.

Edited February 8, 2015 by venusishername

[Leigh 87]

The issue is, none of these men have been that interested in a relationship with you. To begin with perhaps they were excited about the idea - but they changed their minds.

 

Whether or not this is down to early sex, is anyone's guess. Some men lose interest after sex, others don't. Some really don't lose interest after early sex - but it is a GAMBLE. Because some men sure do lose interest.

 

Are all these men people that YOU feel eager to date seriously? Or does your high sex drive sort of govern your actions?

 

 

 

 

 

I have a high sex drive too and so there are men I like enough to casually date (take me to dinner, have sex, become bonded with them but not ENOUGH for me to want a relationship with them). Then there are the men who makes my switch flip... the ones that I sense are solid and decent enough as people - and who I also share strong chemistry and attraction with...My switch "flips" on the odd occasion but hey, there are plenty of men I encounter who I like enough as people to do the FWB thing with as lovers, not committed. The men I have waited to flip my switch, haha, are the ones who were relationship minded - they either wanted to try to date me seriously - or they told me right away that they didn't want to date, yet they didn't want a FWB either as they preferred serious dating scenarios.

 

I wait out for the men who text/call me daily, don't go 24 hours without texting me despite being very busy with work....

 

It hasn't worked out due to not finding true compatibility but thank gosh I have stopped sleeping with said men - I would make out and fool around but not oral or sex - and a month later when it ends due to not being compatible, I feel better for not having had sex with men I ultimately wouldn't end up with long term...... The men I tried it with were legit with their intentions and didn't neglect to pay me attention daily and make me feel sure of their intentions despite the initial doubts I ALWAYS have about ALL men.." are they into me" which is normal for the first day or two.

 

It appears that you are letting men in who enjoy the sex and company and are more than happy to reap those rewards from you. Where as the man I have waited for.. REALLY waited for, they have turned out to be good guys; none of them strung me along or wanted no strings attached sex. They all left me as soon as they realised a serious relationship wasn't on the cards for us. they left me alone.

 

I see a pattern where you let men in who are more than happy to enjoy sex with you, when they have no inclination to want to commit to you....These men I feel have kept you on their radar because they know you will have sex with them, knowing full well they didn't want to commit seriously to you.

 

You can't see that not texting you for 24 hours means low interest so you sort of let things slide. You should straight away put him in your " FWB" basket. You deserve more than a guy with lukewarm interest. Have sex with them sure, but know it is casual. And stop having sex when you meet a new guy!

 

I am selective with who I date - plenty of "fun time" men have been on my radar and in my phone lately, but it is not every day my switch flips on and I want to DATE a guy.

 

You seem open to dating way too many guys?

 

Where as I put them in the casual or "serious" basket from day one. The men I have put in the "Serious" basked turned out to be nice guys who always told me right away when they didn't see anything progressing. They didn't keep me around for sex and they cut contact/left me alone after they ended it so as to not use me for sex and company.

 

I think you give chances to guys who aren't honest and forthcoming with their intentions.

 

As soon as the guys I gave a "chance" to knew where I stood, they told me and didn't bother me again - they knew I wanted more than sex, they sensed it, so they left me alone so I could move on.

[Leigh 87]

I want to stress that I don't think a guy has to be "blown away" on first site.

 

What I meant was:

 

- when a guy goes on a date, he then texts and/or calls you daily

- he makes regular plans

- he never disappears for 24 hours when he was otherwise texting you regularly

- he doesn't disappear and then come back weeks later

 

I mean.... when a guy meets a girl he is excited about, he thinks " wow, this is really nice" and he puts fourth the effort.

 

You give chances to men who, for whatever reason, aren't into you enough to want to commit to regularly dating you.

 

I have met many who were into me enough to text/call regularly, they didn't go a day without contact and they were just into dating me.

 

You sound like a desirable woman and you sell yourself short and give the time of day to men who aren't right for you.

 

Seriously, you need to just say " next". No more sex with men who are lukewarm (but yes, very well could have been into you in the beginning only to lose the momentum to actually want to take you seriously or regularly).

 

You like sex. Great. I have a high drive too. But I hold out for the men who pay regular attention to me and don't chop, change, or make me question their level of passion the way you had to question A.

 

When things are amiss you still bite. You need to immediately say " sorry, I don't think we are a match" at he first site of issues...

 

Instead you keep seeing said guys and give them sex.

 

You can easily get sex with a man who is actually interested if you got rid of these men, and waited a bit longer for a genuinely interested man.

 

Less time wasted with R and M and the A's of this world, is more time spent being open to men who are actually interested in dating you!

 

I just see you wasting your precious time.

 

Unless you can genuinely detach and accept sex only with R and stop being so open to dating him when he is not into it.

[venusishername]

The issue is, none of these men have been that interested in a relationship with you. To begin with perhaps they were excited about the idea - but they changed their minds.

Whether or not this is down to early sex, is anyone's guess. Some men lose interest after sex, others don't. Some really don't lose interest after early sex - but it is a GAMBLE. Because some men sure do lose interest.

Are all these men people that YOU feel eager to date seriously? Or does your high sex drive sort of govern your actions?

That's right.. that's been the case with the men I've dated recently (with the exception of one or two along the way that I've pushed away out of fear)...

It is really a gamble.

That's a great question: are all these men people that I feel eager to date seriously? I think I (as does everyone) decides that along the way. I have let the sex come before deciding that, I suppose, as has been my habit. Then typically it's hard to see clearly with the sex goggles on.

It appears that you are letting men in who enjoy the sex and company and are more than happy to reap those rewards from you. Where as the man I have waited for.. REALLY waited for, they have turned out to be good guys; none of them strung me along or wanted no strings attached sex. They all left me as soon as they realised a serious relationship wasn't on the cards for us. they left me alone.

Actually, I have experienced this each time with the guys I've been involved with recently. It ended once they/I realized that it wasn't in the cards for whatever reasons.

My last two experiences have been rooted in the fact that they realize that I want something more than they are interested in giving and then they go away. They don't come back. (A and the guy from my last thread.)

I see a pattern where you let men in who are more than happy to enjoy sex with you, when they have no inclination to want to commit to you....These men I feel have kept you on their radar because they know you will have sex with them, knowing full well they didn't want to commit seriously to you.

Well, that may very well be true. I know that I wasn't ready for commitment myself so I gravitated towards those types and put up with it longer than maybe many people would have. I think it was just where my head was at during that time.

NOW, I feel much more ready for something serious. But it certainly isn't an easy transition to make! Therefore, I have to change my old habits and standards and hold true to myself. Simple as that. I have changed, and now is time to make the switch. I know that I gravitated towards these types because I was not available or ready myself. Now I am, and that's the current issue I am conscious of. I must be true to myself. I've been fighting it over the past few months and it's time to listen!

 

Also, I don't expect a man to want to commit to me immediately. That takes due time and getting to know. It should not come so soon, in my opinion. It goes both ways, Leigh! I don't meet someone and think: I am ready to commit to him right now! I just KNOW this. Nope, I don't work that way and neither do men. It takes a trial period

You can't see that not texting you for 24 hours means low interest so you sort of let things slide. You should straight away put him in your " FWB" basket.

Maybe, but not necessarily. The 24 hour delay isn't yet my deal breaker. It might be yours, or someone else's. But... I still want to give it a chance right now. That's just how I feel at this moment. We can agree to disagree on this point.

If it adds up and more things like this continue, then YES, of course. I do feel the jury is still out on R. I'll know for sure soon. Right now, I personally feel it's too soon to lump him into that category. That's how I went into it, just fun and casual, but then I realized I do want more than that; I wasn't being true to myself by pretending I was ok with that. I thought I could do it. I was wrong. And that's ok.. owning it!! There's lots of guys out there who want the same thing. I believe it.

 

Actually, I don't think I mentioned to you all before. I told him after the first date when he asked me over for wine and movie... that I am looking for something serious, and I'd feel more comfortable getting to know him in public for the time being. I was very clear. He said he understands and he wants me to feel comfortable, that he likes me and would like to see me again. (That was after our first date btw). I did tell him, so he's aware. I never asked HIM what he was looking for... I felt I would find out in time via his cumulative actions, not words. That's what I'm discovering now.

 

They didn't keep me around for sex and they cut contact/left me alone after they ended it so as to not use me for sex and company.

This has happened to me once the guys realized I wanted something more. It's a blessing, isn't it!?

Unless you can genuinely detach and accept sex only with R and stop being so open to dating him when he is not into it.

Listen, you may be totally right that he's not 'into it'. I just don't have that answer right this moment.

Regardless, NO, I can't detach and just have a no strings attached relationship anymore. I used to, like I said. It's different now and I need to readjust my old habits. I am working on it.

And I don't know that he's not "into it". It is still too soon! He's the one who keeps contacting me. The 24 hour delay was the one break in a regular pattern so far. I pay attention to it, sure... but it was one occasion. If it happens again, or excuses, or flaking, or disappearing, etc. then that's different. But this was just one yellow flag as far as I'm concerned. I'm paying attention now.

 

I just want to note, and I'm going off to the other side of the coin here....

I talked with my best gf who is always very straight and genuine with me. She's known my ex and has heard about all my dating experiences.. she just eats it up as she's married and likes to hear all my juicy dating stories.

When I told her about R over the past few weeks, she said to me "I've never seen you act this way about someone before. You seem so... hesitant, cautious, even confused. I just can't get a read on how you feel about this guy. This isn't like you."

I started talking to her about my ex and how he did this and did that, didn't do this and didn't do that. She told the other day that she's never heard me talk so much about my ex as I am now. Probably because R made me feel some similarities, or perhaps this has flared up some little voice inside me I haven't heard in awhile...

She told me that I have to stop comparing, and I have to let the ex go before I'm able to move on. I MUST go into each situation as NEW and a fresh start.

It made me realize that I haven't done that yet. I've been hanging on to 'what it looked like with my ex' and every man must rise to that standard of how he courted me and what he did and said between the time we met and the time we became a couple. It's time for me to stop that. I'm so glad she brought that to my attention. I need to open my heart and be receptive to new people, who are different than he was. This has been a thorn in my side for over three years I need to let go.

 

On that same note, I could just as easily say that I've been putting up major emotional walls with R and trying to keep it light and breezy and casual as can be... when that's NOT what I want!! (like Sagamore said).

I could just as easily argue that R may be wondering exactly the same thing about me and just can't get a read on me. He said that himself!!

Once he even said it's alright for me to initiate too if I'd like to see him... I can ask, I can reach out if I like also.

It makes me think that wouldn't hurt to be more honest and straightforward. I don't want to speculate what he thinks. BUT.....it IS a two way street. And I feel I've come across sometimes as cold and aloof. Last night he was reaching out, what am I doing, he wanted to see me. I was busy, but in hindsight came across as aloof and gave him a dumb two word response hours and hours later because I was putting up the walls. I could've told him the truth and engaged in conversation that he was trying to elicit from me. I was so focused on not appearing too available and being cynical. When maybe it wouldn't have been such a bad thing after all to just be honest instead. The whole pushing away out of pure fear thing that I've done with men before.

Just as I am wondering 'how' interested he is, what's to say he doesn't wonder the same? We're all in the same boat! Just another POV and something I'm thinking about as well.

 

I'm torn between protecting my heart and upholding these standards to also being open and receptive, and most importantly, honest.

 

In any case, these past few months have been a great lesson for me and I feel I am on the right path with a lot of great insight gained from many of you here and through my wonderful family and friends. I know that I deserve happiness and I am worthy. I haven't always felt that way at points in my life, especially over the past several years. Clearly that has shown through in my dating life.

Now, I do feel I'm in a different place and I'm ready to run with that. Ready for a new start.

Edited February 9, 2015 by venusishername

[Eighty_nine]

Venus, come on. You have to have higher standards. I don't think you have to cut the guy off after the 24 hour delay but that should be a BIG red flag, NOT a little yellow one. You sound sort of in denial. But 24 hours means he saw your text, was busy, and then didn't even get around to remembering to respond for 24 hours. There's no excuse. texting is easy and quick. Prior to a few dates and sex, it's less of a big deal but post-sex that sort of stuff shouldn't be acceptable to you.

 

I also read lots of excuses in your last post. "Maybe he doesn't know how I feel!" Listen, men know- they can read women, and know when they're relationship oriented. More importantly, you told him what you were looking for! (And good for you for doing so). He knows. He's backed off a bit because he got sex from you, so his drive to wine and dine and win you over had diminished. You have to start facing reality. You're all like "we both got great sex, yay!" Listen, good sex isn't that hard to find. And a guy with options is much more likely to pursue a relationship with someone who makes him work for it. If you absolutely can't wait til youre exclusive with someone then get a FWB. Seriously.

Edited February 9, 2015 by lissvarna

[Leigh 87]

I have had men who were really not into texting or calling.. As in, they told me and their long term friends told me " yeah, he isn't into texting or calling girls, he is into casual sort of dating"

 

The "non texter" I saw not long ago still called and texted me daily even though it was not really his "thing". Because he was interested and really liked me at the time.

 

Men who are excited about meeting you don't just go 24 hours without contacting you. Not in 2015.

 

Even the guy travelling the world, who I only met once, messaged me on facebook daily...

 

Men don't go a day or days without contacting you if they were excited about meeting you and they felt you were relationship minded.

 

^^^ world travel guy - I didn't sleep with him. We were at a hostel. It could have easily happened.

 

Looking back, he said " I am glad we didn't give in and sleep together"

 

I wouldn't personally continue talking to R UNLESS it was a clearly defined, no strings FWB type deal.

 

You will possibly catch feelings and then wonder why you wouldn't see the "signs" that he just wasn't that into you.

[venusishername]

Venus, come on. You have to have higher standards. Prior to a few dates and sex, it's less of a big deal but post-sex that sort of stuff shouldn't be acceptable to you. If you absolutely can't wait til youre exclusive with someone then get a FWB. Seriously.

:/

I don't have much else to say in response to this. I know you mean well.

I don't equate sex as a vehicle to change anything about basic human interactions (i.e. methods and frequency/ timing of communication). I guess you yourself would call it my low standards.

Defenses are up here because I was about to use the underline function: I don't feel that just because I sleep with someone I'm entitled to more or less than I would have to begin with. It just means there was sex. It doesn't mean I now have an 'insta-man' who's got to be on the ready and fully available and always round the clock ready and waiting for me. I may sound crazy to you, but it's just how I see it. Perhaps I'm wrong and you are right. I guess we are just different in this way.

 

And I never said I absolutely can't wait until I'm exclusive with someone. I also don't want a FWB. I never have waited til exclusivity, yet I had two long term relationships that spanned a decade of my adulthood. I guess I just don't see it as you do. I don't put sex on a pedestal.

I don't equate sex with respect, or even love. It's nice when they align, of course! It just doesn't happen that way all the time. It is what it is. Sex.

Again, maybe I'm the one who's ****ed up and you are right. We are all different and that's all I know.

 

Look, I feel sometimes it's completely pointless to argue my feelings and why I feel a certain way here. I'm just trying to write it out and express my thoughts... not make excuses or argue with you all.

 

Lissvarna's and Leigh's posts...I hear you loud and clear. What I hear you telling me is that he's not "INTERESTED". That its a FWB only situation? Fine. What do you want me to say? You're absolutely right and I'm just wasting my time. I'd like to believe that is not the case. I need to come to any conclusions on my own, and I know that I will in time.

 

 

Let's get nitpicky: It took him three days to communicate with me after we last saw each other. Two days after, Saturday night (yesterday) he wanted to see me. Less than a week's time since we last saw each other. I don't think that's too crazy or totally unacceptable. That's me.

He didn't ask in advance for Saturday, either way I was busy and it didn't happen. I don't consider these signs of fading out, just noting a difference from prior interactions. You will argue until day's end that it's due to the sex. Ok, fine.. you all could not be more clear that this is a possible factor in someone losing or fading 'I' word. It could be other things totally apart from that. I have no idea.

I did say I was only going into this as purely fun and casual. I thought I could do that and I was wrong.

Idoltree mentioned that he showed signs of fading away these past few days and when/if he does come back around in two days or whatever it will be, I should be even MORE skeptical. Am I reading this correctly, Idoltree? Or did you mean that if this happens, it will be because he picked up on the distancing and then the true intentions will come through? Just wanted to grasp this because I reallydo want to get it.

 

 

I re-read the last 5 pages of this thread. One thing just stuck out to me, something you said. You said something about how now I'm hoping a guy who shows signs to possibly be fading out/pulling back will come back. I need to sleep on this one because it threw me off. Can you please elaborate a little more on this?

Edited February 9, 2015 by venusishername

[idoltree]

:/

Idoltree mentioned that he showed signs of fading away these past few days and when/if he does come back around in two days or whatever it will be, I should be even MORE skeptical. Am I reading this correctly, Idoltree? Or did you mean that if this happens, it will be because he picked up on the distancing and then the true intentions will come through? Just wanted to grasp this because I really do want to get it.

 

Venus, you can't pick and choose when to mirror. It doesn't matter if you were skeptical of him at first, then did your usual going too fast, then backed off. It's the lack of consistency that is the problem. (Specifics, since I know you'll ask: sleeping with him early on, that episode of texting him something needy after having drinks with your friend, communicating with him on his schedule after he didn't respond to you for 24 hours.)

 

Yes, if he contacts you, mirror his behavior. Take at least as long to respond to him as he does you. This includes initial texts. If he checks in with you once a day, you reply once a day. If he texts you this morning, you reply tomorrow morning.

 

However, you seem to be doing your usual clinging on to the one piece of advice that means that the guy isn't fading and isn't losing interest and will come back and validate your worth. Big picture, Venus. Consider all the advice given to you; don't cherry pick what you want to hear. He is slowing down on communicating with you - that isn't good and it may not be something that can be put back on the course that you'd prefer it to be on.

 

From the start, people were skeptical of this guy as a good person for the commitment that you want. In the meantime, he's said some pretty words about wanting a relationship, he's been affectionate in public with you, and you've decided he's a candidate.

 

Men are evaluating you from early on about how you will fit into their life (just as you should be doing with them, but you concentrate on them so much and proving yourself to them that you hand away any power you have to make them prove themselves to you.) Slip up and move too fast, and the cat's out of the bag and you can't put it back in there just because that's what you want.

 

You have to be consistent in the early days of dating and getting to know someone, because they are forming their opinion of you as time goes by. You cannot slip up and then expect things to go back to the way they were. You cannot correct a course after it has been altered. But this doesn't matter if the guy isn't a candidate.

 

I don't know what to say to you anymore. Almost every single post of yours is "I need help to change these outcomes, but I will continue to justify my instinctual behavior and somehow expect magical changes to happen in the outcomes."

 

Your instincts ARE part of the problem, Venus. Do you not see that yet? What else can someone say to you for you to understand that? What are you doing sitting here and justifying what your instincts tell you to do? You are, again, so lost in your hope that you can win this guy over that you have lost sight of the big picture.

 

Let's look at two things, shall we?

 

1. Another guy is fading on you after you slept with him. You'll say, "It doesn't matter, we had good sex!" Okay, so do you want to continue to have 1-3 rolls in the hay with men and have them disappear on you, or do you perhaps want to delay instant gratification in the hopes that you might find a partner for a lifetime of good sex? Because what you are doing now hasn't been working. It isn't helping you find lasting relationships. Sure, sure - if it's the right guy, sleeping together too soon won't matter. But, the other side of it is that the right guy will also wait if you delay sleeping with him. The longer you can keep from getting attached to a guy, the better decisions that you make. Once you feel attached, you act like it. Delay things that make you feel attached, sex being one of them.
   
2. You said you weren't going to get attached to R. He acted charming, and gave you the boyfriend experience since he knew it wouldn't be easy to get you to sleep with him. Now you're attached, and justifying why you're attached, and why it's natural and he reminds you of your ex and blah blah blah. We said at the beginning that his own actions made him not a good long term candidate, but now you're wondering why he's not a long-term candidate and how you can turn him into one because you're attached and want him to want a relationship with you.
   

I don't equate sex with respect, or even love. It's nice when they align, of course! It just doesn't happen that way all the time. It is what it is. Sex.

Okay, so that's your opinion. Cool. If there were not another person involved, it would be fantastic to be stubborn and cling to your worldview about what sex should or should not mean. Trouble is, there is another person. Your opinion of what sex should mean is not relevant because of that.

 

This is similar to me saying "When I'm dating a guy, I should be able to tell him about the type of wedding I've dreamed of since I was a little girl on our second date. I don't think that should change someone's opinion of me, so it's okay. It doesn't matter that men fade on me over and over in the days after I've told them about my dream wedding. Talking about is just talking about it and it shouldn't matter." Maybe that's not the best comparison, but you see what I'm going for? It doesn't matter what I think about a behavior, because there are two people involved.

 

Sex is a milestone. It changes things. You don't want it to change things, but you don't get to decide higher level things like that. Also, are we to ignore in earlier posts that you admit that you sleep with men hoping it further attaches them to you? This isn't some healthy, free, earth-woman decision you are making, as much as you'd like to present it that way. You are trying to use sex as a tool. If we treat your experiences in your threads as case studies, it appears to accomplish the opposite of what you want.

 

And sure, men say that they want a wild and free woman who has sex like a guy does (i.e. not waiting for a commitment), but does that mean that's what they want when they're dating to find a girlfriend?

 

I asked a guy friend of mine to tell me straight - he says that he has experienced losing his drive to pursue a woman if he's dating her and they sleep together early on.

 

He'll try to sleep with her a few more times but feels no compelling reason to try to further a relationship with her. At the same time she's looking to him for more attachment and commitment, he's losing his drive to pursue her. I asked what that felt like - is it conscious or does it feel like it just happens? He said it's an internal process that happens. Looking for something to compare it to, I asked if it was perhaps similar to women losing attraction to a guy who doesn't pursue us with confidence. Like, that on a subconscious level, what was keeping us interested is handed over to us and then we just don't find him as attractive anymore. He said he can't say for sure, since he's not a woman and hasn't experienced this, but it sounds similar. He says he definitely doesn't think about it on a conscious level.

 

None of what I have said means that I think things with these guys could have gone in a different direction (cue Venus justifying that it doesn't matter that she slept with them, then. Yes it does, because you wouldn't have been attached and you wouldn't have felt as much turmoil.) The men you have met and chosen to date aren't the caliber of guy that you should want for yourself.

 

So what are you going to do to meet a different caliber of men, Venus? Make a list of the qualities you want, and I'm not talking about flashy, big egos, charming, and keeping you safe, because those are driven by an unhealthy process that you are supposed to be working on with your therapist. I'm talking about things like genuine, honest, funny, driven, etc.

 

Figure out where the guys with those qualities hang out, and go there. Put yourself in their environment. When you are in that environment, do not fall for the charming guys who come right over to you and try to win you over - you're just another girl to those guys. You're not the first and you won't be the last.

 

Instead, don't let the flashy guys take up your time, so that you can concentrate on looking for the ones that hang back a little. They're a little shy, and hesitant. They aren't flashy and trying to be the center of attention, and if they see you giving time to a flashy guy, they may disqualify themselves as someone you'd be interested in. So, stay on your own and approachable as much as possible. If you think one of the guys in the background is cute, give him a big smile so he knows it's okay to approach you. Those are the guys you want to go for. The flashy ones are a waste of time when you want a long term commitment.

 

You need better men, and you need to finally grasp that your instincts are indeed part of the problem and you should not follow them even with a better caliber of guy, because, again, once the course is altered you can't correct it. So you should let him pursue, and not be scared to let the ball drop if he drops it, and mirror his efforts in terms of timing. Consistency is important. Delaying sleeping with a guy cannot hurt the outcome that you seek, sleeping with him too soon may hurt the outcome that you seek. Your decision as to which one to choose, but I think the answer is pretty obvious.

Edited February 9, 2015 by idoltree

[trolloperative]

The advice here to the OP is in vain because she does not believe early sex cheapens her. No man will make a ONS (which is essentially what she has proven to be) his wife/the mother of his children. Like my late auntie God bless her used to say, when a man is watching you go down on him, his first thought, for probably a second, is can she kiss my children with those lips. Nope.

 

OP after all these men you've racked up, and if for nothing else, are you not afraid of catching a disease?

[idoltree]

The advice here to the OP is in vain because she does not believe early sex cheapens her. No man will make a ONS (which is essentially what she has proven to be) his wife/the mother of his children. Like my late auntie God bless her used to say, when a man is watching you go down on him, his first thought, for probably a second, is can she kiss my children with those lips. Nope.

 

OP after all these men you've racked up, and if for nothing else, are you not afraid of catching a disease?

 

Wow, this is really rude.

 

Nychag, we can tell you're from a different generation. The men of your generation may think this way; please don't extrapolate it to others.

 

Times have changed, young women are getting married and having children, and many of them had sex early on in the relationship. So surely, those husbands and fathers don't agree with you or your late auntie.

[trolloperative]

I'm 34, around the OP's age. Still disqualifying what I said? It wasn't meant to be rude, maybe just a bit outright.

[BluEyeL]

The truth is, many relationship minded men will disqualify you as a serious relationship candidate. It is very true, as unfair it might be. Many of the others are not relatisohip material themselves. Thus, there are mathematically very few men who you'd sleep with early on that you can then form a relationship with. So it does pay to slow down, from a practical point of view.

[venusishername]

OP after all these men you've racked up, and if for nothing else, are you not afraid of catching a disease?

 

 

Yes, I am a complete whore because I've had protected sex with a couple different guys in the past 6 months. **** off.

[trolloperative]

Yes, I am a complete whore because I've had protected sex with a couple different guys in the past 6 months. **** off.

 

Now that was rude, no?

You've had sex with 4 guys in the past 6 months, at least. None have lasted a few weeks. Not judging.

Anyway, unprotected sex includes giving oral. You posted in this thread about having oral sex so I'm not making this up, correct? Let's assume you use condoms, well they only protect up to 90%.

[venusishername]

Now that was rude, no?

You've had sex with 4 guys in the past 6 months, at least. None have lasted a few weeks. Not judging.

Anyway, unprotected sex includes giving oral. You posted in this thread about having oral sex so I'm not making this up, correct? Let's assume you use condoms, well they only protect up to 90%.

Not judging huh? Asking aren't I afraid of contracting a disease is not a judgmental thing to say? I am not asking for your response to this. NEXT.

[trolloperative]

Not judging huh? Asking aren't I afraid of contracting a disease is not a judgmental thing to say? I am not asking for your response to this. NEXT.

 

Not judgment more of concern. It needs to be said. There are also others reading this 20k+

[losangelena]

The advice here to the OP is in vain because she does not believe early sex cheapens her. No man will make a ONS (which is essentially what she has proven to be) his wife/the mother of his children. Like my late auntie God bless her used to say, when a man is watching you go down on him, his first thought, for probably a second, is can she kiss my children with those lips. Nope.

 

OP after all these men you've racked up, and if for nothing else, are you not afraid of catching a disease?

 

I don't understand how this furthers the conversation. Yes, you may be forthrightly stating your opinion, but you're doing it in such a way that it plays upon a woman's insecurity—that's the rude part.

 

Venus has "proven" herself to be a ONS? No man will ever make a woman like that the mother of his children? So what, she's doomed to single whore-dom? Please. She's a person who's trying to figure s*it out as she goes along, just like the rest of us. To say our advice is in vain is saying she's incapable of learning from her mistakes. So not only are you calling her cheap, you're calling her dumb as well.

 

You may not see it like that, but your post could certainly be construed that way, and hence why you're getting so much blow-back.

[venusishername]

Yes, if he contacts you, mirror his behavior. Take at least as long to respond to him as he does you. This includes initial texts. If he checks in with you once a day, you reply once a day. If he texts you this morning, you reply tomorrow morning.

 

 

Ha, this is what's throwing me off with your advice. If a text today, don't respond until tomorrow? Other than that I get what you're saying about mirroring and I have done that so far. Maybe after his 24 hour delay I broke that rule by responding in LESS than 24 hours and therefore came across as 'overly available'

 

However, you seem to be doing your usual clinging on to the one piece of advice that means that the guy isn't fading and isn't losing interest and will come back and validate your worth. Big picture, Venus. Consider all the advice given to you; don't cherry pick what you want to hear. He is slowing down on communicating with you - that isn't good and it may not be something that can be put back on the course that you'd prefer it to be on.

What am I clinging on to the one piece of advice? What is the one piece of advice? (I'm confused).

I wouldn't say slowing down. I don't see any roaring red flags as far as the communication, the flag I see being the 24 hour delay. I will say this: this past week's communication from him was just DIFFERENT from the week prior. The week before that was also DIFFERENT. What is consistent is that he contact me regularly and asks to see me at LEAST once a week or more. That's where it's at on Monday, February 9, 2015 at 10:32 a.m.

This coming week.. is yet to be seen. I'm approaching this with extreme caution and on the alert though.

Men are evaluating you from early on about how you will fit into their life (just as you should be doing with them, but you concentrate on them so much and proving yourself to them that you hand away any power you have to make them prove themselves to you.) Slip up and move too fast, and the cat's out of the bag and you can't put it back in there just because that's what you want.

I don't think it's too late to make some adjustments. But thank you for your reminder. I don't think in this case I am bending over backwards trying to prove myself with R though. I feel I'm doing my damnedest to keep an arms length and not chase, which I personally believe is quite different from what I've done in the past.

 

Let's look at two things, shall we?

 

1. Another guy is fading on you after you slept with him. You'll say, "It doesn't matter, we had good sex!" Okay, so do you want to continue to have 1-3 rolls in the hay with men and have them disappear on you, or do you perhaps want to delay instant gratification in the hopes that you might find a partner for a lifetime of good sex? Because what you are doing now hasn't been working. It isn't helping you find lasting relationships. Sure, sure - if it's the right guy, sleeping together too soon won't matter. But, the other side of it is that the right guy will also wait if you delay sleeping with him. The longer you can keep from getting attached to a guy, the better decisions that you make. Once you feel attached, you act like it. Delay things that make you feel attached, sex being one of them.
   
2. You said you weren't going to get attached to R. He acted charming, and gave you the boyfriend experience since he knew it wouldn't be easy to get you to sleep with him. Now you're attached, and justifying why you're attached, and why it's natural and he reminds you of your ex and blah blah blah. We said at the beginning that his own actions made him not a good long term candidate, but now you're wondering why he's not a long-term candidate and how you can turn him into one because you're attached and want him to want a relationship with you.
   

Well, I guess then if it doesn't matter when it happens... time will reveal whether he is the right guy. I can't go back and un-do the sex. What happens from here is important though and I am hyper-aware of it.

Also, I want to point out again that he's aware that I want something more substantial. I would think he'd have the decency therefore to either pull the plug if he wasn't feeling it anymore or rise to the occasion.

 

If you want to insist that he's starting to pull the fade, then fine. I can't argue with you. You may be right and this is the start of it. Or not.

Didn't you say before that if he (or any hypothetical man) would start to notice, 'hey, she's pulling back, what's going on...' and he wanted to pursue something.. that it would make him 'show up'? And if not, he would continue to fade out? Well, let's see now that a couple days have gone by and we haven't seen each other for a week. Again, you may be right and I'm just not seeing it yet.

Yes, I DID say I wasn't going to get attached to R. Am I? No. I'm just hopeful that it might work out and continue on, and I'd love to get to know him more and see if it's a good fit. (as of Monday, February 9, 2015).

Also, are we to ignore in earlier posts that you admit that you sleep with men hoping it further attaches them to you? This isn't some healthy, free, earth-woman decision you are making, as much as you'd like to present it that way. You are trying to use sex as a tool.

Where did I say this? I guess that's something I've let go of.. or am starting to anyway. Using sex as a tool to me also means purposely holding out for 10 dates or until marriage or putting a numbers game on it. I didn't sleep with R to win him over. I didn't do that with A. Maybe I've done it in my past once or twice...but not lately, I know that.

 

 

So what are you going to do to meet a different caliber of men, Venus? Make a list of the qualities you want, and I'm not talking about flashy, big egos, charming, and keeping you safe, because those are driven by an unhealthy process that you are supposed to be working on with your therapist. I'm talking about things like genuine, honest, funny, driven, etc.

Well, don't be silly! Of course I'm looking out for those qualities.

do not fall for the charming guys who come right over to you and try to win you over - you're just another girl to those guys. You're not the first and you won't be the last.

The flashy ones are a waste of time when you want a long term commitment.

I see.

So you should let him pursue, and not be scared to let the ball drop if he drops it, and mirror his efforts in terms of timing. Consistency is important. Delaying sleeping with a guy cannot hurt the outcome that you seek, sleeping with him too soon may hurt the outcome that you seek. Your decision as to which one to choose, but I think the answer is pretty obvious.

Thank you for reminding me again.

Edited February 9, 2015 by venusishername

[trolloperative]

I don't understand how this furthers the conversation. Yes, you may be forthrightly stating your opinion, but you're doing it in such a way that it plays upon a woman's insecurity—that's the rude part.

 

Venus has "proven" herself to be a ONS? No man will ever make a woman like that the mother of his children? So what, she's doomed to single whore-dom? Please. She's a person who's trying to figure s*it out as she goes along, just like the rest of us. To say our advice is in vain is saying she's incapable of learning from her mistakes. So not only are you calling her cheap, you're calling her dumb as well.

 

You may not see it like that, but your post could certainly be construed that way, and hence why you're getting so much blow-back.

 

Just to be clear I didn't call anyone a "whore".. that's you guys.

 

Yes, it's very hard to crawl up from ONS. Even FWB see each other regularly and partners don't usually drop off unexpectedly yet still can't move upward to LTR.

 

This is a learning experience for many people not just OP.

[trolloperative]

Venus, the advice here is to not see the guy when he asks (a good sign) which I don't get. You should be getting to know each other if your goal is a relationship and salvaging things. Granted you've already had sex which complicates things but doesn't always rejecting him send him the message that you're not interested?