When it rains it pours

[clia]

I think you are absolutely right to renew your lease. Some of the things you've posted have me raising an eyebrow over here.

 

I went back to look at some of your older posts about him to refresh my memory. You've been very clear to him from the beginning that you did not want to live with a man unless marriage (or at minimum engagement) was on the table. Based on that, I don't like that he keeps trying to convince you to move in with him. Yes, of course it would be easier. You wouldn't have to worry about finding a place, etc. But it really does feel like you sacrificing everything, whereas all he has to do is give up a closet and ends up with sex and a cook (and I suspect a maid). (To be honest, unless you happen to absolutely love cooking, I don't personally care for the idea that you cooking for him is also part of the deal...it just seems really strange to me, like he's bringing you in as his domestic help as opposed to his girlfriend)

 

And if things go wrong, you are the one left holding the bag. It's a big move. I don't know -- it just bothers me. In the beginning, you mentioned he was looking for work options in CA and considering those options, but all of that seems to have stalled and he seems to be relying on you to make the move. What happened to that enthusiasm from him? I would be very hesitant if I were you to pick up and move there-- you have a lot to lose, frankly. If I were you, I would not mention moving there anymore, and I would not make a permanent move without doing a temporary (1-3) month move first to try it out. You may find out a lot when you start seeing him on a daily basis.

 

The financial issues have been an issue from the beginning. You are getting a good grasp for what he is like in this regard. He's not a saver, not a planner, and his finances are not stable. Frankly, he's broke. Is this okay with you? Can you live with this forever? Is this what you want from a life partner? (Bear in mind that you will never find anyone who is perfect and no matter how much you love a person, they will annoy the heck out of you at times!)

 

I also will say this -- I don't like that every trip he's made to see you has involved some family gathering and/or the presence of one of his children. I would like to see him make a trip to see you and only you. It just feels like trips he might've made anyway, but oh cool, you're there so he can see you also. Whereas when you have gone to visit, you go to visit him alone.

 

I don't know, venus, I sometimes feel like you are so desperate to get married that you might be willing to overlook things that could cause huge issues for you down the road. Please be honest with yourself. Do you want to be living in his father's house? Do you want to be a stepmother? Do you want to be with someone whose finances are unpredictable and a little messy? Is this what you really want for yourself?

[BluEyeL]

After careful deliberation I came to the conclusion that this man is not for you. I don't think you should marry him. Read what clia said. Lots of issues for the long term .

 

Keep looking . Find someone local, with education and a career. These things don't seem superior to romance but you can have both of you are patient. Not someone perfect but someone more compatible and suitable for you.

[venusishername]

Thanks for the update, Venus. What does this mean please?"I don't do this often in my life, but the other day I "asked for a sign" I only do that when I am having a hard time making a decision. So- I have started the process"

Hi Grisho. I meant- I don't ask a source of higher power or 'the universe' to give me a sign to make a difficult decision very often. But during some very difficult crossroads in my life, I have done it. I mean, I have asked for help, an outside source, fate, to step in and show me the way to go. By 'starting the process' I think I just meant that I have asked for the sign, which means I know I have a difficult decision on my shoulders, and I am now receptive to that 'sign' to point me in the right path.

 

I went back to look at some of your older posts about him to refresh my memory. You've been very clear to him from the beginning that you did not want to live with a man unless marriage (or at minimum engagement) was on the table. Based on that, I don't like that he keeps trying to convince you to move in with him. Yes, of course it would be easier. You wouldn't have to worry about finding a place, etc. But it really does feel like you sacrificing everything, whereas all he has to do is give up a closet and ends up with sex and a cook (and I suspect a maid). (To be honest, unless you happen to absolutely love cooking, I don't personally care for the idea that you cooking for him is also part of the deal...it just seems really strange to me, like he's bringing you in as his domestic help as opposed to his girlfriend).

Actually, I absolutely love cooking. So I would be more than happy to cook multiple times a week, which I do for myself anyway. I'm certain that he wants me there for more than a cook and for sex and domestic help, Clia. Although sure that is a big incentive for most single men who want to live with a woman. He never lived with any woman before his ex wife, or since. If he was that desperate, he would have easily found someone to do those things rather than pursue me across the country. But- on its face, that IS what it appears he is offering. He gets the sweet end of the deal with sex, good food, companionship, and someone to help out around the house, etc. but as a girlfriend. Is this what you meant? Or did you really mean to say that you think he wants me to move in with him so I can be his maid?

 

My mom has said the same, about him continuing to ask me to move in when he knows how I feel. Well, it's tapered off to just leaving it as an open invitation, he's not pressuring me by any means or trying to convince me. He just keeps extending the invitation. I take as it him offering me what he has right now on the table so that we can be together in the same city. On the flip side, I still think he needs to offer more than that, as I think you are implying.

 

I don't know -- it just bothers me. In the beginning, you mentioned he was looking for work options in CA and considering those options, but all of that seems to have stalled and he seems to be relying on you to make the move. What happened to that enthusiasm from him? I would be very hesitant if I were you to pick up and move there-- you have a lot to lose, frankly. If I were you, I would not mention moving there anymore, and I would not make a permanent move without doing a temporary (1-3) month move first to try it out. You may find out a lot when you start seeing him on a daily basis.

Ironically, today, he says that he had looked into the jobs out here and things are looking good, that maybe he could be able to make it out here after all, sooner than he thought. He has been mentioning it over the past 10 months, there were a few months in the middle that he did not seem to be as gung ho- but of recent he has been talking more about it because he knows guys at work that talk about their jobs in CA. He said something like 'in the event you don't move here.. I just looked at CA jobs and it's looking good for me to come out there soon'. That was just today. I haven't talked to him any more about it yet, because he has talked about it all along, and hasn't made any moves to move toward it yet. I'm waiting to see him put his money where his mouth is.

 

You say if you were me you wouldn't mention moving there again, and don't move if not for 1-3 months first. So how would I do that if I don't talk about it?

I have to side with Lana here, if I did move in with him for a month or two, when I did move out it would cause a rift I'm sure. I already thought about that. I would have to come back to CA and settle my affairs here if I decided to leave it behind anyway. You say don't mention it, *which I'm not going to for the time being*, but don't move there unless 1-3 months. I'm confused as to how I can go about that without talking about it.

 

The financial issues have been an issue from the beginning. You are getting a good grasp for what he is like in this regard. He's not a saver, not a planner, and his finances are not stable. Frankly, he's broke. Is this okay with you? Can you live with this forever? Is this what you want from a life partner?

No, Clia, I did not want to fall in love with someone who was bad with money, and who doesn't have a lot of it. However, he makes it work. Who am I to judge really? As you know, from what I have witnessed, he is a spendthrift and does not have a good grasp on saving, as far as I have seen firsthand. He saves. But he just doesn't have much left after paying bills, paying for half my flight, paying for his son, paying for these trips. He mentions that he doesn't feel like he is financially stable although I see him working all the time and he seems to make decent money. So I admit I'm kind of confused as to what his gripe is.

But to answer your question, yes, I want someone who has a dependable income and who is responsible with money. No one is perfect and sometimes I feel like I'm being too critical. I have no equity, a small amount of savings, and have frequently lived paycheck to paycheck in my adulthood. I can't afford to buy property where I live, the concept of a down payment is beyond my reach. But I made it work in the end. I'm doing ok.

Who's to say that he can't provide. I can't say that he is broke. He doesn't have a lot, that is true. But he has afforded everything so far, including our trips, including this one, and everything in between. I'm really not sure what to think about this, Clia. But it has been on my mind.

 

I also will say this -- I don't like that every trip he's made to see you has involved some family gathering and/or the presence of one of his children. I would like to see him make a trip to see you and only you. It just feels like trips he might've made anyway, but oh cool, you're there so he can see you also. Whereas when you have gone to visit, you go to visit him alone.

I guess I can see why you might say that. Well, he never came out to CA before he met me, for over 10 years or so, so I don't feel like he would have come out here three times in less than a year regardless of me being here.

He did take his son the past two times, that is true, I know because he wanted to bring him around the family. I guess I just happen to live in the same state and not far away from his extended family, so he wants to see me of course but also include them at least as part of it. I wouldn't see anyone else but him where he lives because I don't know anyone there. If I did, I would probably want to see them.

I don't know. What do you think it is saying that it HAS included family time when he has come here? We have had alone time, but not this last trip here and in Mexico. Not for New Years when he came here the time before. Can you explain why that is bothersome? Is it because you think it shows that he's not really serious and I just happen to live here so he makes an excuse to visit his family and see me at the same time?

 

I don't know, venus, I sometimes feel like you are so desperate to get married that you might be willing to overlook things that could cause huge issues for you down the road. Please be honest with yourself. Do you want to be living in his father's house? Do you want to be a stepmother? Do you want to be with someone whose finances are unpredictable and a little messy? Is this what you really want for yourself?

I really do want to be married. I don't want to be alone anymore. Especially when I found someone who does love me and who is adoring and treats me like gold, someone who sees my worth and who has never made me question how he feels and where I stand with him.

But yes, I wanted to be with a guy that had savings or at least a desire to buy his own house in the future, or was working towards it. I would have pictured myself with a lawyer or a business man. But I dated those guys, and it never worked out.

You make it sound like he is living at his parents' house. He does not own his own home, but he pays the mortgage and all the bills on it and maintains it.

I don't own my own home and am so far from it. Again, who am I to judge? He has lived other places other than this house in the past, this is kind of a recent place for him to live at this place. It's a pretty nice place and in a good neighborhood too.

 

As far as being a stepmom- I don't have a problem that he has kids, not at all. I also don't mind being a stepmom, although I still want at least one of my own children. That part I can be flexible on. Plus, I had my chance to have my own child before, I never took the opportunity, and so I have to live with the consequences of maybe marrying into someone who actually went through with the pregnancy. I feel sometimes I am being punished for what I did, now that I don't have my own child(ren), I chose not to, so I can live with being a stepmother, since I didn't have the guts to be a mother before. I would've been a single mom, but I could have already been a mother. I didn't want it then. I have no idea if I'm still able to get pregnant again, I may never have another chance. So to answer your question- yes, I am ok with being a stepmother, because I want to have a family.

And no, I am not ok with someone who doesn't have a handle on his finances and has an unpredictable income. However, if he can be consistent and reliable IN SPITE of that, I could be willing to work with it, knowing that I could take care of my part and be independent.

 

After careful deliberation I came to the conclusion that this man is not for you. I don't think you should marry him. Read what clia said. Lots of issues for the long term .

 

Keep looking . Find someone local, with education and a career. These things don't seem superior to romance but you can have both of you are patient. Not someone perfect but someone more compatible and suitable for you.

Oh Blue Eye, I have wondered the same thing, if I could find someone better suited for me. In many ways I don't think we are suitable for each other. But in so many ways I think he's one of the best things that's ever happened to me. I just hate to walk away from someone who loves me and who is adoring and so good to me. I would hate to be single out of choice just because I don't think he's good enough or educated enough. I just don't know how to feel anymore.

I never found the right guy for me here locally. I have dated SO MANY men I don't want to ever date again. I dumped a couple of guys before that were really into me and would kiss the ground I walk on because I was too critical, or didn't feel they did xyz right, etc., or they were too tall, short, drank too much, messy, etc. I can't keep turning them down. I've been too picky!! I regret turning them away, because I gave my attention to the guys who didn't really love me or see me through the eyes that he does.

Now I'm the only one of my closest friends and also one of the only women I know in my social and work circles that isn't married and never has been!! I do think he's a really good man, but he's not the dream man I thought I'd end up with. I thought I would meet someone here with an advanced degree and white collar guy, someone who works in my office building, sure. I did, but it never worked out.

 

And BlueEye, he's not even ASKING me to marry him, so where does that leave me?

God, I feel like hell. I don't want to keep making the same mistakes. I'd be more stupid to end it with him than I would to at least give it a fair chance. I'd rather do that than be alone, knowing I turned down another good guy that was head over heels about me and also someone I was attracted to and shared the same family values, etc.

What do I do?

I am so torn. I think you and Clia are right in some ways to say these things, but I'm not totally convinced either.

Edited August 3, 2016 by venusishername

[clia]

Actually, I absolutely love cooking. So I would be more than happy to cook multiple times a week, which I do for myself anyway. I'm certain that he wants me there for more than a cook and for sex and domestic help, Clia. Although sure that is a big incentive for most single men who want to live with a woman. He never lived with any woman before his ex wife, or since. If he was that desperate, he would have easily found someone to do those things rather than pursue me across the country. But- on its face, that IS what it appears he is offering. He gets the sweet end of the deal with sex, good food, companionship, and someone to help out around the house, etc. but as a girlfriend. Is this what you meant? Or did you really mean to say that you think he wants me to move in with him so I can be his maid?

 

I was being somewhat facetious. I don't think he is just with you for a cook and domestic help -- but yes, I do think he's getting the sweet end of the deal here. And maybe I'm cynical, but I expect you'll find yourself doing the majority of the housework, cooking, and cleaning if you do move in with him. (The fact that he specifically mentions that cooking for him is part of the deal is just really off putting to me. If you love to cook, you would do that anyway. I don't like that it's mentioned like some kind of bargaining chip or something.)

 

Ironically, today, he says that he had looked into the jobs out here and things are looking good, that maybe he could be able to make it out here after all, sooner than he thought. He has been mentioning it over the past 10 months, there were a few months in the middle that he did not seem to be as gung ho- but of recent he has been talking more about it because he knows guys at work that talk about their jobs in CA. He said something like 'in the event you don't move here.. I just looked at CA jobs and it's looking good for me to come out there soon'. That was just today. I haven't talked to him any more about it yet, because he has talked about it all along, and hasn't made any moves to move toward it yet. I'm waiting to see him put his money where his mouth is.

 

Ok. I hadn't realized it was something he was still bringing up. I was starting to get the impression that closing the distance was going to be all on you, which I don't think seems completely fair.

 

You say if you were me you wouldn't mention moving there again, and don't move if not for 1-3 months first. So how would I do that if I don't talk about it?

I have to side with Lana here, if I did move in with him for a month or two, when I did move out it would cause a rift I'm sure. I already thought about that. I would have to come back to CA and settle my affairs here if I decided to leave it behind anyway. You say don't mention it, *which I'm not going to for the time being*, but don't move there unless 1-3 months. I'm confused as to how I can go about that without talking about it.

 

If you keep talking about moving there, he might think that is the decision that's been made and he doesn't have to concern himself with moving to CA. That's all I mean. No decision has been made about who will move. If he brings it up, tell him you haven't decided yet. He should still be exploring his own options. Just stop bringing it up for awhile -- you haven't made a decision yet and you are renewing your lease, so there will be no move in the short term anyway.

 

And I don't think you should move in with him if you go there for a short term trial. Get your own place through Airbnb or a sublet. Treat it like you are living there, not like a vacation with him where you get to play house. You don't stay at his place every night (or he at yours). Etc... It's a trial for real life, not playing house.

 

But all this talk of moving is totally moot anyway unless he proposes, right? So why talk about it when he isn't even saving up for a ring?

 

No, Clia, I did not want to fall in love with someone who was bad with money, and who doesn't have a lot of it. However, he makes it work. Who am I to judge really?

 

This isn't even about judging him. This is choosing your life partner, picking up your life and moving it to the other side of the country, choosing the man you will have children with, etc.

 

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with how he is. As you say, he makes it work. I question whether this will work for YOU in the long run. Five, ten years from now when you have kids to support.

 

But to answer your question, yes, I want someone who has a dependable income and who is responsible with money.

 

Well, that's not this guy. This is a huge thing to compromise on. I'm picturing you pinching pennies to save for a downpayment or retirement or whatever while he's off spending. That will get old real fast in a long term relationship.

 

No one is perfect and sometimes I feel like I'm being too critical. I have no equity, a small amount of savings, and have frequently lived paycheck to paycheck in my adulthood.

 

He has over ten years on you and he's in the same boat. Surely you expect to be better off ten years from now? But okay, you two are about even, so maybe it can work? (For some reason I was thinking your financial situation was better than that.)

 

I can't afford to buy property where I live, the concept of a down payment is beyond my reach. But I made it work in the end. I'm doing ok.

Who's to say that he can't provide. I can't say that he is broke. He doesn't have a lot, that is true. But he has afforded everything so far, including our trips, including this one, and everything in between. I'm really not sure what to think about this, Clia. But it has been on my mind.

 

But what's the balance on his credit cards? (I recall he got declined last year for the hotel when he was visiting you?) Is he just charging it all to pay for later on? People can appear to live quite well off credit for awhile, but that doesn't reflect their true financial situation. I once dated a guy who I thought was doing fine, but then I came to find out he had over $30k in credit card debt with nothing to show for it because he had spent it all on trips, dinners out, etc. He just charged it all.

 

I mean, honestly, you asked him to pay for half of a $200 plane ticket. It's great that he did that! But I'll tell you...he should've been able to pay for all of it. It's really not that much money.

 

I don't know. What do you think it is saying that it HAS included family time when he has come here? We have had alone time, but not this last trip here and in Mexico. Not for New Years when he came here the time before. Can you explain why that is bothersome? Is it because you think it shows that he's not really serious and I just happen to live here so he makes an excuse to visit his family and see me at the same time?

 

I don't know that all the family time means anything. It's different for different people. Some people think it's a huge deal to make family introductions, others don't think it's any big deal at all.

 

And yes, his trips bother me because it does make me wonder about his seriousness for the long term as far as getting to know you. Neither of you have the finances to see each other that often, so when you do get time together you need to make the most of it. He should be trying to get to know you in person, to spend time alone with you, explore your compatibility for a long term relationship, etc.

 

I mean, think about the beginning of a typical relationship. Most people don't start introducing to family and kids for awhile. They spend time together to make sure they are compatible before it gets to that. Now, obviously being long distance you can't follow the normal progression, but it makes me wonder if you two really have explored the compatibility and one-on-one aspects enough when you are together in person. It just seems like you end up with all this family stuff to do. I'm not knocking that he wants to visit his family, but it wasn't important enough for him to visit them for 10 years, so why all this family time now? Can he visit them for an afternoon and then spend the rest of the trip with you? Does he have to bring his kid(s)?

 

I really do want to be married. I don't want to be alone anymore.

 

Being alone is better than being with the wrong person or wasting your time with the wrong person.

 

Especially when I found someone who does love me and who is adoring and treats me like gold, someone who sees my worth and who has never made me question how he feels and where I stand with him.

 

Also someone who you haven't spent more than a week (?) with in person at any one time.

 

You make it sound like he is living at his parents' house. He does not own his own home, but he pays the mortgage and all the bills on it and maintains it.

 

You said he lives in his father's house. I don't understand -- why is he paying the mortgage on that house? Why doesn't he buy his own house or take over the mortgage and ownership on that house if he's paying it anyway? Does he have siblings? Because if his dad passes away, all those payments he's made on a house he doesn't own aren't going to mean squat.

 

And no, I am not ok with someone who doesn't have a handle on his finances and has an unpredictable income. However, if he can be consistent and reliable IN SPITE of that, I could be willing to work with it, knowing that I could take care of my part and be independent.

 

If you marry him, though, you can't just be independent and let him fend for himself. His problems become your problems.

 

Oh Blue Eye, I have wondered the same thing, if I could find someone better suited for me. In many ways I don't think we are suitable for each other. But in so many ways I think he's one of the best things that's ever happened to me. I just hate to walk away from someone who loves me and who is adoring and so good to me. I would hate to be single out of choice just because I don't think he's good enough or educated enough. I just don't know how to feel anymore.

 

Ultimately you are the only one who can decide what you want to compromise on and what you want to do going forward. Because to make this work, you will have to compromise a lot. I would think long and hard about all of this before uprooting my life and moving across the country. None of us here know him or how he is or how he treats you or what his situation is. I just personally find it hard to believe that there are no men at all where you live who might be more compatible with you. And yes, I know you've dated a lot. I've been there, done that, also. I met my husband when I was 38. So...in my view...you have plenty of time.

Edited August 3, 2016 by clia

[Els]

I might not have followed the entirety of this thread, Venus, but your last few posts really concern me. It's understandable that you're worried you'll 'waste time' dating and not find anyone compatible with you. But if you marry this guy, you'll NEVER find anyone compatible with you. Not until you divorce him, at least. Which I'm sure is not part of the plan...

 

You don't even necessarily have to find someone locally. Yes, ideally you would, but EVEN if the other person is long distance like he is, if that other person were in a much more appropriate financial situation for his age (AFAIK your bf is ~40 with barely a penny to his name?), and/or in a line of work that would allow him to move to you, and/or living in a city that would be more pleasant for you to move to (I looked up New Orleans and can't imagine anyone wanting to live there, doesn't it have one of the highest violent crime rates in the US?).... that would still put you in a much better situation than you are in with him.

 

Don't do it. Don't quit your job. Don't move to him. Don't say yes if he asks you. Either let him move to you so you can spend time dating him and seeing who he really is without having to give up everything in your life and moving to a city you don't really want to live in, or cut the cord IMO.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Elswyth

[No_Go]

With all being said, I see three big concerns:

 

1) no progress in the relationship: same to lower frequency of visits, same to lower time alone. Usually the face-time increases when the relationship reaches maturity, long distance or not

 

2) his relationship history: he never married the mother of his children! It was ok for him to do it before, it will be ok for him to do it again most likely. He's not a family man from what I've read, more of a bohemian guy that will have issues to adjust to a completely different lifestyle

 

3) he's not willing/able to raise another child as of today. That's a major incompatibility. I think it is wise of him to put first his children and make sure to provide a reasonable lifestyle to them before bringing another child to the world... But is that aligning with your plans?

 

From what I read it is not clear if he's paying mortgage. Is that something that he brought up recently? From what was written before, he's just living in and maintaining a family house (which btw can be very big expense and commitment). If he's depending on the AirBnB income, how is he going to be if you move in there and he loses this income?

 

I still think the main concern here is 1). You do need face-time before marriage decision, and preferably not a holiday time (which doesn't give information about day-to-day lifestyle and behavior). As of now you both wasted 10 months without knowing are you even compatible for long term... You both really need to find a way to evaluate that.

[clia]

I was thinking more about the finances.

 

How much money has he spent traveling to visit you? (He's only been out to CA twice, right?)

 

Count: his airfare, hotel, rental car, his contribution to your airfare or travel costs when you have visited him

 

Do Not Count: his kid's airfare and/or hotel room (his choice to bring his kid has nothing to do with you), the Mexico trip (this was his family member's wedding, so it has nothing to do with you), "going out" expenses (food, drinks, etc.) while you are together (normal dating costs)

 

Add up the "Count" (or your best estimate) and divide it by the number of months you've been together (10?) to get the monthly estimate of how much he's spent to date you.

 

If you lived in the same city and were dating normally, do you think he would've spent more or less than that on normal dating activities? If he would've spent more, then how do you see the finances shaking out when you live in the same city together?

 

It feels like you two are spending a lot because it is in big chunks of money at a time, but when you average it out, it may not seem so outrageous if you consider what you would spend if you were living in the same city and doing normal couple stuff like going out for dinner, lunch, drinks, breakfast, movies, concerts, sporting events, and even things like buying groceries together to make a meal, extra gas expenses, etc.

[Grisho]

I think some of the criticism is uncalled for, which is making me wonder what I may be missing that other people are seeing.

 

If I have misread something, feel free to correct me.

This man has paid for everything almost. Venus has hardly had to pay a thing, as far as I understand it, other than make token gestures. He's able to pay all his bills, and seems to be able to fund his lifestyle (I don't recall any comment about debt). Venus has the things she claims to want work-wise in him (fixed earnings, regularly paid etc etc), yet she's in a worse financial position than him, it would seem, and is forced to live with a flatmate to have the lifestyle se wants. I think we have to be careful about idealising 1 style of working that we're familiar with, with another that we're not familiar with, if the evidence is showing good things. Work is changing. Office jobs are becoming more and more obsolete. The fact that this man is very resourceful, and generates a continuous stream of work, are positive attributes, I think.

 

I know a man who is now in his 60's, who still continues to juggle different types of jobs to make ends meet. He's always travelling from 1 workplace to another. He's the busiest person I know, and never needs to plan too far in the future, because his contacts always seek him out for work opportunities all year round. He has never had a full-time job.

[No_Go]

Not to be the devil's advocate, but groceries&gas while short-distance dating should not count, because these are just everyday expenses regardless of dating.

 

Also there is TON of free dates that you can do locally, you don't need to spend a penny for walk in the park or walk on the beach, which are awesome dates IMO. She can also be the one treating him to dates if she wants to do something specific.

 

Money issues come at: who is going to pay rent/mortgage/utilities/child expenses etc, the rest is dispensable.

 

I was thinking more about the finances.

 

How much money has he spent traveling to visit you? (He's only been out to CA twice, right?)

 

Count: his airfare, hotel, rental car, his contribution to your airfare or travel costs when you have visited him

 

Do Not Count: his kid's airfare and/or hotel room (his choice to bring his kid has nothing to do with you), the Mexico trip (this was his family member's wedding, so it has nothing to do with you), "going out" expenses (food, drinks, etc.) while you are together (normal dating costs)

 

Add up the "Count" (or your best estimate) and divide it by the number of months you've been together (10?) to get the monthly estimate of how much he's spent to date you.

 

If you lived in the same city and were dating normally, do you think he would've spent more or less than that on normal dating activities? If he would've spent more, then how do you see the finances shaking out when you live in the same city together?

 

It feels like you two are spending a lot because it is in big chunks of money at a time, but when you average it out, it may not seem so outrageous if you consider what you would spend if you were living in the same city and doing normal couple stuff like going out for dinner, lunch, drinks, breakfast, movies, concerts, sporting events, and even things like buying groceries together to make a meal, extra gas expenses, etc.

[BluEyeL]

I don't know, I was for him, but since I know that financial issues are the biggest stressor on a relationship and marriage, I'm concerned about marrying someone who is not sound in their 40s. It's not about the variable income, but he does seem to struggle, depends on airbnb income and doesn't own a house at this time. It's fine to rent when you're young, but for someone who wants to start a family, raise children. this guy doesn't quite seem to cut the stable husband and father requirements.

 

Also, if he's never married the mother of the kids and is insisting you live with him, that's not good news either.

 

It's not about too tall or too short. Those are criteria you can throw away. Looks matter the least and yet so many women give a crap about that and let that be their guide, when that means very very veeeery little for a long term future. But financial issues and overall stability, aligned goals are huge huge things. It's not nitpicking. You can marry just to get divorced and find yourself 40 not 30 and still alone and either with kids to raise on your own or childless.

 

I do not believe a man is right just because he's treating you better romantically. It's an overall picture and looking into the future.

 

Look, I'm engaged and I'm 44, but I married my ex at 23 and I didn't marry the right person. I liked how he talked to me, he was very affectionate and he was also tall and sh.it, but all that didn't mean squ.at. He was a bad husband, didn't think providing was his job, and he was an even worse father. So yeah, I got married and I could say I was married, but I ended up 41 and dating and a single mom. I'm happy now specifically because I woke up to what matters, but do you want that?

[Grisho]

Venus, I am wondering why it has never been planned for either of you to spend 2 weeks in the location of the other. Is that just because of problems with holiday allowance? I ask because I am in a long-distance relationship (we're in different countries), and we're always trying to spend 2 weeks together, in order to actually spend a decent amount of normal time together, in order that we can see how much of a relationship together we can grow in an everyday sort of setting.

 

I support the idea that either of you plans to spend a month in the other person's location. You'd both learn loads about each other in that time, and see how easily you can blend your personalities and ways together. Spending just a couple of days together here and there isn't going to enable you to judge compatibility day-to-day in my opinion, because the holiday feeling will abound, rather than a day-to-day feeling.

 

Being around friends and family during your time together is both a friend and foe. When friends and family members are providing distractions, the relationship carries on regardless, because everyone's time is occupied. On the other hand, it is important to see how relationships with family members and friends can co-exist together with your relationship with your partner.

[Grisho]

Also, if he's never married the mother of the kids and is insisting you live with him, that's not good news either.

 

May I ask why? My perspective is that there are no guarantees of a healthy future with someone, regardless of whether they give them a ring, gives assurances, get married etc etc. Building a life with someone is about much more than those things, I think, but it also requires a leap of faith, which can be devalued by the other partner on any given day.

 

Look, I'm engaged and I'm 44, but I married my ex at 23 and I didn't marry the right person. I liked how he talked to me, he was very affectionate and he was also tall and sh.it, but all that didn't mean squ.at. He was a bad husband, didn't think providing was his job, and he was an even worse father. So yeah, I got married and I could say I was married, but I ended up 41 and dating and a single mom. I'm happy now specifically because I woke up to what matters, but do you want that?

 

Just want to comment on this and mention there are loads of possible models. It isn't the case that men automatically must provide, which makes me feel it's important to stress a variety of options when we are guiding Venus.

-Sometimes women earn all the money and pay all the costs, whilst the men stay at home raising the kids

-Sometimes there's an equal contribution from both partners to the costs, regardless of earnings being different

-Sometimes there's a proportional contribution from both partners to the costs, determined by earnings (1 partner may pay 80% because of higher earnings)

 

In terms of chores like cooking and cleaning, I think it's really important for both partners to contribute an equal amount to all the dull chores, and for any subsequent children to learn from their parents that both parents are involved in cooking and cleaning, regardless of gender.

[clia]

I think some of the criticism is uncalled for, which is making me wonder what I may be missing that other people are seeing.

 

If I have misread something, feel free to correct me.

This man has paid for everything almost. Venus has hardly had to pay a thing, as far as I understand it, other than make token gestures. He's able to pay all his bills, and seems to be able to fund his lifestyle (I don't recall any comment about debt). Venus has the things she claims to want work-wise in him (fixed earnings, regularly paid etc etc), yet she's in a worse financial position than him, it would seem, and is forced to live with a flatmate to have the lifestyle se wants. I think we have to be careful about idealising 1 style of working that we're familiar with, with another that we're not familiar with, if the evidence is showing good things. Work is changing. Office jobs are becoming more and more obsolete. The fact that this man is very resourceful, and generates a continuous stream of work, are positive attributes, I think.

 

I know a man who is now in his 60's, who still continues to juggle different types of jobs to make ends meet. He's always travelling from 1 workplace to another. He's the busiest person I know, and never needs to plan too far in the future, because his contacts always seek him out for work opportunities all year round. He has never had a full-time job.

 

It's being brought up and discussed because it's something venus has been bringing up repeatedly since the beginning of their relationship -- his financial irresponsibility, careless spending, financial situation, etc. I think she has even said he complains about being "broke."

 

Obviously it's worked for him, though. The question is will it work for her to be in a relationship long term with a man like this? That's something she has to decide.

[lana-banana]

When I am the most optimistic person in a thread, something's gone terribly wrong.

 

No, I don't think he just wants a maid or a cook. But I do think he has been emphasizing the practicalities of your moving ("we'll save so much money!") over the relationship itself since the very beginning. That's concerned me and I've said as much. So I'm with Clia when she says the thing about cooking is sorta weird. It's like he's trying to make you clear on what's expected of you.

 

My other concern is it seems like he knows what to say to you to make you respond in a certain way. Do you think he's serious about moving to you, or is he just trying to placate you so he gets what he wants? I know in the past he's defused your anger by bringing up marriage, which struck me as very manipulative. I think he may be less than sincere about some things he tells you, but it's hard to say which.

 

You seem to have this idea that you'll still be mostly financially independent after you marry. That is not how it works. Yes, of course you'll still have separate accounts, but at the end of the day his perilous financial situation will affect you. It's in your interest to help pay down his debts---are you still in the dark as to just what they are?---and make financial decisions for the both of you. You're a team.

 

We have a house under contract right now and let me tell you, the months from January to July were hard. We went out to dinner maybe once a month. We axed our food budget (the biggest for us) in half. We eliminated all major purchases. We told each other about every cost, from bills to coffees. At the end of every month we sat down on the couch and reviewed all expenditures. It was pretty tough, and this is coming from two yuppies with good incomes! If we hadn't had such good communication and total financial transparency it would have been a nightmare. I don't think it's a good idea to tie yourself to someone without knowing you can work together that way.

 

It sounds like now your concern isn't just about how to move forward, but whether moving forward is a good idea at all. None of us can decide that for you. Put your happiness as your chief goal and consider what's really going to make you happy in the long run. And don't be fooled into thinking "everything will be fine once XYZ", because XYZ is never enough. Fulfillment comes from a partner who meets your needs in and of himself, not by things he has to buy or moves he has to make.

[Grisho]

It's being brought up and discussed because it's something venus has been bringing up repeatedly since the beginning of their relationship -- his financial irresponsibility, careless spending, financial situation, etc. I think she has even said he complains about being "broke."

 

Obviously it's worked for him, though. The question is will it work for her to be in a relationship long term with a man like this? That's something she has to decide.

 

When I mentioned it being uncalled for, I'm including Venus' criticism of him in that, too. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

I understand that he has been called all of those things over and over, but would dispute that those terms are deserved. We tell everyone to judge actions, not words. What has this man failed to provide money for so far? He hasn't insisted Venus pay half for costs etc. He hasn't had to cancel or change plans because of money. We aren't aware of any significant amounts of debt on his part, are we?

[clia]

Not to be the devil's advocate, but groceries&gas while short-distance dating should not count, because these are just everyday expenses regardless of dating.

 

Also there is TON of free dates that you can do locally, you don't need to spend a penny for walk in the park or walk on the beach, which are awesome dates IMO. She can also be the one treating him to dates if she wants to do something specific.

 

Money issues come at: who is going to pay rent/mortgage/utilities/child expenses etc, the rest is dispensable.

 

While I agree with you that there are plenty of things you can do for free, Venus seems to enjoy going out on the town. In fact, I recall during her guy's first visit out to her she was a little upset that they didn't go out more. I don't think it's realistic to think they will never spend any money going out if they are living in the same city or wouldn't have spent anything if they lived in the same city. And since venus is still in the stage of figuring out if this is the right guy for her, I think she should focus on what type of lifestyle she wants (which may include going out for dinner/drinks once or twice a week) rather than how much free stuff they can find to do together. (Unless she's cool with just doing free stuff.)

 

And of course she can treat him.

 

I was just trying to get a feel for how much money he has actually spent dating her, because I don't think it's been some crazy amount of money, and certainly not more than he would've spent had they been dating locally. I'm still not sure whether or not venus has a full comprehension of his financial situation or not.

 

Also, fine, remove the groceries and gas. I threw them in only because they are added expenses people might not have when single. It costs more to feed two than to feed one, and my grocery bill certainly went up when I was dating if we were eating at home frequently. Also, you might travel around more on the weekends driving to the beach or whatnot if you are in a couple than if alone, etc., resulting in an increased gas bill. I've found that I just tend to do more and go more places when part of a couple rather than single. Your miles may vary.

[Grisho]

While I agree with you that there are plenty of things you can do for free, Venus seems to enjoy going out on the town. In fact, I recall during her guy's first visit out to her she was a little upset that they didn't go out more. I don't think it's realistic to think they will never spend any money going out if they are living in the same city or wouldn't have spent anything if they lived in the same city. And since venus is still in the stage of figuring out if this is the right guy for her, I think she should focus on what type of lifestyle she wants (which may include going out for dinner/drinks once or twice a week) rather than how much free stuff they can find to do together. (Unless she's cool with just doing free stuff.)

 

And of course she can treat him.

 

Just wanting to add to this, that there's a huge difference between the amount of going out people do in the holiday phase v's day-to-day life. I mention this because we don't know how reasonable Venus' complaining about that was. In holiday mode, we want to go out every day, and be stimulated a lot every day with trips here and there. Everyday life is far removed from that.

 

In the first visits with my boyfriend, he was intent on every day involving a trip somewhere, and that was lovely at first, but not later, when I wanted to get a feel for everyday life with him, where people might do something special a couple of times a week, but not every day when clothes need to be washed, food needs to be bought, things need to be cleaned, bills need to paid, someone is sick etc.

[Els]

When I mentioned it being uncalled for, I'm including Venus' criticism of him in that, too. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

 

I understand that he has been called all of those things over and over, but would dispute that those terms are deserved. We tell everyone to judge actions, not words. What has this man failed to provide money for so far? He hasn't insisted Venus pay half for costs etc. He hasn't had to cancel or change plans because of money. We aren't aware of any significant amounts of debt on his part, are we?

 

If they were just dating I might agree with you that his finances aren't any of her concern beyond the ability to go out on dates, but they're not just dating. She's going to quit her job and move to a different state to be with him. She's considering marrying him and moving in with him. That's a lot more serious than just dating and does warrant consideration of such matters IMO.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable at all to consider debt or lack of savings or very low income to be a deal-breaker for a guy in his 40s. If he was in his 20s I'd say cut him some slack, but in his 40s, barring extreme circumstances like major illness, I think it's pretty normal to expect a decent income or a nest egg or such.

 

Also, if he was willing to play the role of supporter and she wasn't against being the main breadwinner, then it might not be so bad, but he isn't even willing to do that. She is the one who is having to quit her job to be with him,and he's expecting her to cook for him. If she isn't careful she'll end up in the extremely unenviable position of being BOTH breadwinner and housekeeper.

[No_Go]

I got your point.

 

I got the impression that Venus likes to go out etc, I just overlooked that because I though that's just the overspending phase of a new relationship.

 

My BF was like that initially. We ended up both overspending IMO and I had to put breaks. Even though in our case it is very far from spending our last couple of hundred dollars - both him and I make close to six figures, and I have been saving and investing very consistently from many years.

 

Nevertheless - we both don't own property, and he had debt. I insisted from the day that we got more serious to 1) pay off his debt 2) save for down payment instead of spending on entertainment, gifts etc. In a little over an year he achieved both (and he was a big spender!) proving things are possible.

 

But lavish lifestyle with frequent going out, holidays, travel AND wanting a stable home+kid(s) is a no-no in my mind. In their current situation it is not AND, it is an OR (it will be AND if at least one of them had saved considerable sum, I'm talking at least high six figures). But in their reality, she needs to decide what her/their priorities are.

 

While I agree with you that there are plenty of things you can do for free, Venus seems to enjoy going out on the town. In fact, I recall during her guy's first visit out to her she was a little upset that they didn't go out more. I don't think it's realistic to think they will never spend any money going out if they are living in the same city or wouldn't have spent anything if they lived in the same city. And since venus is still in the stage of figuring out if this is the right guy for her, I think she should focus on what type of lifestyle she wants (which may include going out for dinner/drinks once or twice a week) rather than how much free stuff they can find to do together. (Unless she's cool with just doing free stuff.)

 

And of course she can treat him.

 

I was just trying to get a feel for how much money he has actually spent dating her, because I don't think it's been some crazy amount of money, and certainly not more than he would've spent had they been dating locally. I'm still not sure whether or not venus has a full comprehension of his financial situation or not.

 

Also, fine, remove the groceries and gas. I threw them in only because they are added expenses people might not have when single. It costs more to feed two than to feed one, and my grocery bill certainly went up when I was dating if we were eating at home frequently. Also, you might travel around more on the weekends driving to the beach or whatnot if you are in a couple than if alone, etc., resulting in an increased gas bill. I've found that I just tend to do more and go more places when part of a couple rather than single. Your miles may vary.

[BluEyeL]

May I ask why? My perspective is that there are no guarantees of a healthy future with someone, regardless of whether they give them a ring, gives assurances, get married etc etc. Building a life with someone is about much more than those things, I think, but it also requires a leap of faith, which can be devalued by the other partner on any given day.

 

 

 

Just want to comment on this and mention there are loads of possible models. It isn't the case that men automatically must provide, which makes me feel it's important to stress a variety of options when we are guiding Venus.

-Sometimes women earn all the money and pay all the costs, whilst the men stay at home raising the kids

-Sometimes there's an equal contribution from both partners to the costs, regardless of earnings being different

-Sometimes there's a proportional contribution from both partners to the costs, determined by earnings (1 partner may pay 80% because of higher earnings)

 

In terms of chores like cooking and cleaning, I think it's really important for both partners to contribute an equal amount to all the dull chores, and for any subsequent children to learn from their parents that both parents are involved in cooking and cleaning, regardless of gender.

 

Regarding the first issue, whether or not marrying matters, it doesn't matter if both think that it doesn't matter. In this case, she wants to be married and if he's not into that, and didn't marry his previous partner, plus keeps mentioning living together, it doesn't seem they are on the same page, which makes it a red flag.

 

Regarding what I said about my ex, yes, I know there are several models, I didn't get into the details about our marriage, my ex had an attitude problem, it wasn't about whether or not he had money. Neither one of us had, but he had an attitude that he must be provided for (by my parents in the beginning) and he bears no responsibility towards family or his children. Basically, it was just about him. And later, as we met young, and since he wasn't interested in working towards achieving financial success, I had to, I did and then he felt inferior and told me so, cheated and left me and our son. He should have never been married, even when we were married he wasn't "really' married. It was never "us". It was just him, with someone to take care of him. Did no chores, didn't care for the kid, it was all me me me.

 

But that's very off topic. Only relevant to say that yeah, you can be married but even if your lover treats you great romantically (ex was a good lover/boyfriend, fun etc.) he could very well be the wrong person for marriage. Financial soundness in your 40s, when you plan children is really important, it has nothing to do with being shallow or greedy, because problem there and the wrong attitude can lead to divorce. You don't want to marry just to marry and divorce because finances and attitudes build resentments which will catch up with you.

 

It's all romantic and all to say money doesn't matter, and it doesn't, for dating, but for marriage and children, for 30 years together, it really really does. She doesn't need this guy just to pay for her dinner when dating. She's smart to look at his habits, attitudes and what does all say for their future.

Edited August 3, 2016 by BluEyeL

[introverted1]

My possibly over-simplified take is this: If they are struggling to find $200 for a plane ticket, which is a once-every-6-or-8-weeks thing, how on earth are they going to afford for Venus to stay home with a baby? Or even pay for daycare? It's been a while but isn't $200 a WEEK a low estimate?

[sc0316]

Venus has mentioned a couple of times that her primary goal is to get married, whereas having kids is only secondary. If she's fine with not having kids, then perhaps her bf's financial problem is not as big an issue?

 

I understand from Venus' posts that her bf has some debts. I was just wondering if he at least has some retirement account. If not, he might have to be dependant on Venus after retirement (if they're to be married).

 

If I remember correctly, the bf's daughter is staying with him. Together with the AirBnB thing, Venus will be staying with a bunch of people, not just her bf, if she moves into his house. This arrangement may not sound very appealing for some women.

[Grisho]

If they were just dating I might agree with you that his finances aren't any of her concern beyond the ability to go out on dates, but they're not just dating. She's going to quit her job and move to a different state to be with him. She's considering marrying him and moving in with him. That's a lot more serious than just dating and does warrant consideration of such matters IMO.

 

I haven't posted anywhere that his finances are not her concern. I ask you kindly to retract linking that comment to me. I've simply asked for people to stop calling him irresponsible and reckless, until we have evidence to support that (I know Venus started those comments herself, but we need to push her to look at facts, when she doesn't do that herself, I think).

 

I hope you understand there's a difference between the following 2 assertions:

"He's irresponsible with money, so you need to ask for clear evidence of his debt, and think hard about whether you can live with a financially reckless man who cannot reliably support blah blah blah..."

"It might be time to discuss finances in more detail, so you can both understand more about how much debt and savings each has, whether each uses credit cards, whether each is interested in saving to buy a house or for a kid and so on."

 

I feel the first has been unfairly used, when the second is more appropriate.

 

I don't think it's unreasonable at all to consider debt or lack of savings or very low income to be a deal-breaker for a guy in his 40s. If he was in his 20s I'd say cut him some slack, but in his 40s, barring extreme circumstances like major illness, I think it's pretty normal to expect a decent income or a nest egg or such.

 

Agree. We don't have any evidence of debt, lack of savings and whatnot, though, do we? That's all conjecture, because Venus is spinning on this issue, rather than give and get clear information about finances. All we have so far is he has money for everything they've needed, and has paid most of their costs in general. Naturally, if the discussion had been about someone being a low earner, the decision to stay or leave would be much clearer. As it is, we've no evidence of him being a low earner.

 

Also, if he was willing to play the role of supporter and she wasn't against being the main breadwinner, then it might not be so bad, but he isn't even willing to do that. She is the one who is having to quit her job to be with him,and he's expecting her to cook for him. If she isn't careful she'll end up in the extremely unenviable position of being BOTH breadwinner and housekeeper.

 

I feel this is unfair. He is considering moving to where Venus lived. He hasn't asked her to leave her job. I think you are reading some of Venus' thoughts, when she mulls over ideas and worries, and attributing them to him, which is unfair. I think we also have to expect more from Venus frankly. If a man has told her he expects her to do all the cooking, it's her duty to refuse, and insist chores are shared, or to leave the relationship.

 

Nevertheless - we both don't own property, and he had debt. I insisted from the day that we got more serious to 1) pay off his debt 2) save for down payment instead of spending on entertainment, gifts etc. In a little over an year he achieved both (and he was a big spender!) proving things are possible.

 

But lavish lifestyle with frequent going out, holidays, travel AND wanting a stable home+kid(s) is a no-no in my mind. In their current situation it is not AND, it is an OR (it will be AND if at least one of them had saved considerable sum, I'm talking at least high six figures). But in their reality, she needs to decide what her/their priorities are.

 

I would say the priority is something else initially - I think they both have to give and get info about each others' spending habits, debt, savings, earnings and so on and so on. Everything could be possible, or nothing could be possible. Venus is prone to panic, without doing something to lessen the panic, and explains it here in vague terms sometimes (like the panic about not going out enough - we've no idea if that was justified panic or not).

 

Regarding the first issue, whether or not marrying matters, it doesn't matter if both think that it doesn't matter. In this case, she wants to be married and if he's not into that, and didn't marry his previous partner, plus keeps mentioning living together, it doesn't seem they are on the same page, which makes it a red flag.

 

I feel this is unfair. I seem to recall he has mentioned living together as the step before marriage. If I am wrong, I hope Venus will correct me.

 

You don't want to marry just to marry and divorce because finances and attitudes build resentments which will catch up with you.

 

It's all romantic and all to say money doesn't matter, and it doesn't, for dating, but for marriage and children, for 30 years together, it really really does. She doesn't need this guy just to pay for her dinner when dating. She's smart to look at his habits, attitudes and what does all say for their future.

 

Who posted that money doesn't matter?

 

I think the finance point has been taken to such an extreme, if I am honest. As above, this man has been labelled financially irresponsible and reckless (I admit by Venus, but still feel we have no evidence of anything but kindness, generosity and finding money for all expenses). As above, I think it's healthy and reasonable for both to now give and get financial info about each other, but not based on suspicion of him especially, because he has had no money troubles so far in funding everything. There has been loads of negative speculation about his financial position (started by Venus), and we need to push Venus to deal in facts, I think.

[venusishername]

My possibly over-simplified take is this: If they are struggling to find $200 for a plane ticket, which is a once-every-6-or-8-weeks thing, how on earth are they going to afford for Venus to stay home with a baby? Or even pay for daycare? It's been a while but isn't $200 a WEEK a low estimate?

We are NOT, struggling to find $200 for a plane ticket. Come on!

I'm going to ignore these comments from here on out, guys. Coming up with $300 for a ticket was not a struggle. I simply didn't want to pay for it all by myself because I am also going out of town in October and am paying for that trip. I asked him if he would be willing to pay for half. He paid for his ticket to come to CA, paid for his ticket to Mexico, and paid for the majority of our expenses while he was here. It is not a struggle for either one of us to afford a couple hundred dollars, but it was the idea of splitting the cost of my plane ticket out there, considering my recent and upcoming expenses, that I asked if he would help. He could have paid for all of it, I just didn't ask. Considering while I'm there, he will be paying for most of the expenses anyway. Moving on from this point.

 

I haven't had a chance to read in full all the recent comments. But I will say, Blue Eye is right, it isn't about going out to dinner or going out on the town, because we both like to do that. It's about the big expenses, the day to day financial obligations, the not going out part. The bills, savings, retirement, rent, mortgage, car payment, electricity. That stuff. I'm not worried about not being able to afford going out to dinner or going to the movies or to a nice bar. That will happen, no doubt.

And the last thing I have time for is nickel and diming the expenses he has paid for on our visits together. That's absurd. I know he has paid for approximately 85% of our time spent together, so the contribution of money is a moot point to me, and frankly, not important. I have paid for token items, like coffee or a taxi here and there. And half of my plane ticket.

That is fine by me. I don't expect him to pay for all of my tickets, all of my expenses. I make my own money and can contribute what I can.

 

Also, on the note of him asking me to cook, I think this really got blown out of proportion here. He is offering me to live with him for no cost. I said I wouldn't feel comfortable with that, and he said, maybe it would be nice if I would take care of cooking then. This doesn't mean every day, or as a bargaining chip. I could say screw that (although I love to cook) and offer to pay for the water bill instead. Please remember that I work full time and don't feel right living for free. I am also never going to be a housewife either, so I plan to contribute to my housing costs no matter where I live.

 

I would like to read through the past page more thoroughly later on, but I feel that maybe our conversation last night is worth mentioning before I do. I also think that a lot has been derailed here as far as money. Yes, I do have concerns about his financial stability, that is true. I am not in a better or worse position than he is financially. Just to be clear.

 

He called me last night while I was writing my last post, and we had a really interesting conversation. It was almost as if he could read my doubts, and my hesitation. Not to say that he was being manipulative by trying to tell me what I want to hear. But he did say some things that really did alleviate my concerns, without me even having to mention it.

He said yesterday that he has been looking into jobs out here and things are looking very good. This is nothing new, he mentioned this early on and has always been open to it. He sent me one job in particular that was on his roster, and he just renewed all his information, dues, and has the materials to study for the licensing in my state, contacts, etc. He said he realized that I would have to give up a lot to move there, and I have a good job, a good place to live, and he doesn't want to ask me to sacrifice so much. He wants to add to my life and not take away from it. He said he knows it's coming up on a year and that I need to think about renewing my lease soon.

He wants us to live in the same city, but realizes that it wouldn't be fair for me to sacrifice so much to move to him. He mentioned something about asking me to live with him, and with a laugh, half-jokingly, he said he's not going to take no for an answer. He's not going to give up, guys. He never has. This is why it never worked out with any other guy here locally. No one has tried as hard as he has.

 

He says he knows that I want to have nice things and save, and have a house of my own, and so does he. But he said we can do that together, now that things are more than just these trips across the country for rendezvous, he wants to take things to the next level. The first step is living in the same city. And he's trying to make that happen, if not offering me to move to him, and if I say no, then he will do it. That's what he's saying now. He's not taking my no for an answer. Let's see what he does. I was thrilled to hear him say this and praised the idea of him finding work here. He said he would like to make sure he could find something as close as possible to where I live and that way he can spend more time at home with me.

 

He said he would make sure his house was taken care of too. And we left it as- let's talk about all this when we see each other in a few weeks. He mentioned marriage again, but I can tell that he wants to live in the same city first before committing to that. That's totally understandable.

He even said that he didn't want me to have to give up so much to move there, that I'm doing and thinking the right things by hesitating, he would tell his own daughter to do the same if she was in my position.

 

I'll try to write more later, but these were my thoughts this morning.

[BluEyeL]

Fair enough. Premarital counseling and having discussions about finances, are nevertheless, very important things to do before marriage. I think maybe venus has too much anxiety about this, but she's smart to consider all possibilities.

 

I had these discussions with my fiancee. We saw each other accounts and debts and we visited a financial planner, we have another meeting in a couple of weeks, to see what he thinks about our retirement together.