When it rains it pours

[No_Go]

Sorry I didn't express myself correctly. I meant you prefer more traditional dynamics, I.e. in case you have a baby you stay home initially, NOT as a housewife permanently.

 

I just mentioned that because in my circles it happens every so often the dad to take longer leave if he's making less. I have at least 3 friends that did that because their husbands were lower-earners or couldn't work due to immigration issues.

 

Having said that - commenting on your other post - if you discover e.g. he doesn't have any savings, it is not necessarily a deal breaker. Just you'd be the main bread winner and/or money manager at least initially. If that's something that you're willing to compromise with.

 

 

I'm sorry, No Go, you are mistaken here. I do not want to be a housewife and/or a stay at home mom. I DO want a partner who is responsible and who I can trust to lean on financially in the event I have his child. I have no desire to stay and home and not make my own money. I could never give up that independence.

[lana-banana]

By the way, not one person has mentioned anything about my post about what he said the other night about finding work here and what he said. I kind of got lost in all the recent posts, did I forget to tell you?? I thought it really changes the direction things are looking.

 

Honestly? They're just words at this point. I would caution you against assuming it "really changes" anything. Talk is cheap. Looking for jobs is easy. Let's see if he's actually serious about moving out there to be with you.

 

The question is not how much money he has in his pension, or how much he owes. The question is- let's just go ahead and assume there are some problems. What do I do from there?

 

Wait for it...

 

Talk to him and get numbers?

 

Yes! All of the numbers, every single one:

 

- checking account total

- savings account total

- retirement account(s)

- investment account(s)

- credit limit

- all loans

- credit card debt, if any

- other debts

- delinquent debt

 

---and be prepare to share all of your own too! This shouldn't be a hostile or confrontational process. It's just learning more about each other and getting an accurate picture of what your combined finances mean for your future circumstances.

 

Then what? What if it really is bad? Do I leave? I've already told him I have concerns when this stuff has come up.

 

First of all, consider the nature of the loans. Student loans and medical loans are typically not as bad, because there are a lot of payment options available and most creditors understand these can be out of your control. Personal loans and car loans are next. Credit card debt and payday loans are the worst because they accumulate such massive interest. Most people with severe credit card debt struggle to get out.

 

You also have to evaluate the condition of the loans and debts. A delinquency will devastate credit scores for years, even after it's paid off (although FICO9 is supposed to change this). If he's ever had his wages garnished he's in extremely serious trouble.

 

Once you know what the numbers are, get out a calculator. The goal with all loans and debt is to pay them off as quickly as possible*. Figure out how you can do that. If it means you have to chip in an extra $500 a month for a couple months, that's not be so bad. But if you'll have to pay $500 a month for a couple of years, accruing interest all the while---well, is that a situation you want to be in? Are you going to be giving up date nights for a little while or a long while? Once you talk you'll know exactly what a future with him will look like.

 

Do I leave him because of these concerns.. granted that I don't have full and complete facts to support? That's the crux of all of this.

 

A major point of this conversation will be getting all the full and complete facts so you can't keep saying "but I just don't have all the facts!" anymore. You will finally know and you will be empowered to make an informed decision.

 

 

 

* = there are exceptions, but they don't seem to apply here

[No_Go]

Lana, I'd respectfully disagree here.

 

No way on earth I'll share details about investment accounts with someone that I've spend 7-8 few-days visits with. This is a sensitive information and can be easily misused.

 

General picture: credit score+debt, plus very rough idea about savings - yes. More details: in much later stage of the relationship (when both has agreed on engagement at very least).

 

Honestly? They're just words at this point. I would caution you against assuming it "really changes" anything. Talk is cheap. Looking for jobs is easy. Let's see if he's actually serious about moving out there to be with you.

 

 

 

Wait for it...

 

 

 

Yes! All of the numbers, every single one:

 

- checking account total

- savings account total

- retirement account(s)

- investment account(s)

- credit limit

- all loans

- credit card debt, if any

- other debts

- delinquent debt

 

---and be prepare to share all of your own too! This shouldn't be a hostile or confrontational process. It's just learning more about each other and getting an accurate picture of what your combined finances mean for your future circumstances.

 

 

 

First of all, consider the nature of the loans. Student loans and medical loans are typically not as bad, because there are a lot of payment options available and most creditors understand these can be out of your control. Personal loans and car loans are next. Credit card debt and payday loans are the worst because they accumulate such massive interest. Most people with severe credit card debt struggle to get out.

 

You also have to evaluate the condition of the loans and debts. A delinquency will devastate credit scores for years, even after it's paid off (although FICO9 is supposed to change this). If he's ever had his wages garnished he's in extremely serious trouble.

 

Once you know what the numbers are, get out a calculator. The goal with all loans and debt is to pay them off as quickly as possible*. Figure out how you can do that. If it means you have to chip in an extra $500 a month for a couple months, that's not be so bad. But if you'll have to pay $500 a month for a couple of years, accruing interest all the while---well, is that a situation you want to be in? Are you going to be giving up date nights for a little while or a long while? Once you talk you'll know exactly what a future with him will look like.

 

 

 

A major point of this conversation will be getting all the full and complete facts so you can't keep saying "but I just don't have all the facts!" anymore. You will finally know and you will be empowered to make an informed decision.

 

 

 

* = there are exceptions, but they don't seem to apply here

[sc0316]

Venus: If you're to get married, are you willing to contribute to 50% of the household expenses (rent/mortgage, utilities, childcare, groceries, insurance, transportation, and everything)? My guess is that, with some help in budgeting, your bf should have no problem contributing to half of your joint expenses if you're to be married. But you seem to be the type who expects the bf/husband to bear most of the financial burden. Is that true?

[lana-banana]

Lana, I'd respectfully disagree here.

 

No way on earth I'll share details about investment accounts with someone that I've spend 7-8 few-days visits with. This is a sensitive information and can be easily misused.

 

General picture: credit score+debt, plus very rough idea about savings - yes. More details: in much later stage of the relationship (when both has agreed on engagement at very least).

 

I agree in principle, but they're talking very seriously about engagement and marriage. Hell, Venus has made it clear she expects to be engaged for this relationship to progress. It's not a casual situation anymore. I'm not saying she should give over her SSN and account login details, but investment and retirement totals are important numbers to have. She deserves to know how big their emergency nest egg is.

[No_Go]

I don't know Lana. You question his intent to come to work at CA because you say it is just words, why not apply the same principle for engagement talks?

 

I've been burned financially very badly by a BF after I shared financial info with him. He was dead aware that I am able to (albeit not willing to) pay the whole lease, and one month after moving him stopped contributing anything to the house. He knew I won't risk eviction so he just speculated with what I told him.

 

So IMO before relocation and/or engagement anything more than credit score, debts and very rough idea of savings is TMI.

 

When did you disclose it all to your own BF?

 

I agree in principle, but they're talking very seriously about engagement and marriage. Hell, Venus has made it clear she expects to be engaged for this relationship to progress. It's not a casual situation anymore. I'm not saying she should give over her SSN and account login details, but investment and retirement totals are important numbers to have. She deserves to know how big their emergency nest egg is.

[BluEyeL]

I agree with no-go, it seems premature to have that level of disclosure. At this stage, even if things are serious , general debt, credit score and savings seem appropriate . That's what we did, we first had these numbers, about 1year in. And after getting engaged we got the full picture and next week we have the second meeting with the financial advisor to see at what age can we retire and with what income. Trust needs time to build up to that level. I don't feel they are there. I also think marriage is premature here.

[BluEyeL]

Venus: If you're to get married, are you willing to contribute to 50% of the household expenses (rent/mortgage, utilities, childcare, groceries, insurance, transportation, and everything)? My guess is that, with some help in budgeting, your bf should have no problem contributing to half of your joint expenses if you're to be married. But you seem to be the type who expects the bf/husband to bear most of the financial burden. Is that true?

 

I didn't get that impression . My impression is that she doesn't want to end up carrying all the burden by herself because she has an irresponsible partner who is taking advantage. I know exactly what she means . That situation is not pretty and will end up in serious problems if it happens. It's better avoided.

[lana-banana]

I don't know Lana. You question his intent to come to work at CA because you say it is just words, why not apply the same principle for engagement talks?

 

Very good point. Plenty of men string engagement talks along for months or even years, or they buy a ring and never actually intend to propose. You can never be fully sure, can you? I think the question comes down to a matter of trust. I trust my boyfriend with my life and he has always been completely true to his word, no matter how big or small. It's never occurred to me not to trust him. But part of that is because we met as colleagues in an incredibly stressful situation that required huge amounts of hard work, integrity, discretion, and communication. Would I trust him as much if we hadn't been through that together? I don't know.

 

I've been burned financially very badly by a BF after I shared financial info with him. He was dead aware that I am able to (albeit not willing to) pay the whole lease, and one month after moving him stopped contributing anything to the house. He knew I won't risk eviction so he just speculated with what I told him.

 

So IMO before relocation and/or engagement anything more than credit score, debts and very rough idea of savings is TMI.

That's absolutely heinous. I'm so sorry you went through that. I don't know how to respond to something that awful, but if someone is willing to do that to someone they ostensibly love---well, there's not a lot you can do about it but kick them the hell out. I hope you set him on fire. If you didn't I'm willing to do it.

 

When did you disclose it all to your own BF?

Before I agreed to move in. We decided I would move in with him for a couple months and he would shoulder all the rent and bills while I saved up money for a down payment on a house. It was very helpful to know exactly how much money we had and where it was going, including how much I was socking away each month for mutual funds. I saved up enough to not only finish off the down payment but also give him a couple grand to polish off what little was left of his student loans. We show each other our statements at the end of every month. The only exception is the ring---I don't know exactly how much he spent on it because he picked out the diamond himself, but I have a ballpark figure and I'm relieved it's within our budget. Don't get me wrong, we don't always agree, but we've never once tried to take advantage of each other financially. He makes more money than I do but we try to contribute as equals as much as possible.

 

I'm not sure if we would have wanted or needed this level of transparency if we were just sharing an apartment. Probably not. That being said, if my boyfriend had given indicators of major problems the way Venus's man has, I would probably want to know as much as possible about his finances. Personally I'm not very uptight about my retirement and investment numbers. I'm a millenial; you really think I'm ever going to retire? The earth will have crashed into the sun long before then.

 

I don't know how Venus can come to trust this guy any more than she does already. (Tangentially, I agree it's way too soon for them to be discussing engagement, but that's Venus's call, not mine.) So long as they're still long distance much of the relationship is theoretical. I don't have any experience in translating long-distance talk to a steady, reliable relationship, but to some extent that doesn't matter, does it? As you know, even a day-to-day relationship doesn't guarantee anything. Either someone has the integrity to make good on their word and provide or they don't. I'd like to think this guy isn't lacking in integrity at all; the question for me is whether he has the means and resources to provide what Venus needs.

Edited August 5, 2016 by lana-banana

[Sunkissedpatio]

I've not read the full 76 pages but Venus, first things first:

 

If I am understanding this correctly you have been long distance with this guy for 7 months approx.? Before you even entrain any talks of finances, which to me it is preposterous to claim full disclosure at this juncture and I would NEVER print out my finances and expect the same from a man I'm dating for 7 months, in an LDR, with no ring or open plans for marriage… and my gosh no concrete plans on where to live together?

 

Whoa Nelly!

 

I also want to put out there that from your initial post you have made a point to say your life goal has been marriage and [you are feeling pressures] because mostly everyone in your circle is either married or having kids. Ok, great! Glad you were able to determine that you are ready for all that before you even met someone you could consider all that with but be careful with putting the horse before carriage. I am seeing that pattern in how you are approaching this relationship. At the point you are now with all this finance/baby talk you are doing it again; putting the horse before the carriage.

 

Have you determined where you will both live? Are you absolutely certain you want to give up your job and uproot yourself to go live with this man in his town? I commend you for being a risk taker in that respect and in life you do have to go for what you want and mostly there are no guarantees.

 

You are only 30 and you will find work again even if, god forbid, things fail after your move. But take a breather. Baby talk and finances talk is REALLY premature here. If you want to go see what this man is about and you can afford to uproot to do that, (by afford I don’t mean $$ I mean the big picture) then do it!! But go into it with a lot less pressure on yourself and your poor guy. I get it is a HUGE step but you cannot put all these pressures for proof of all these things that never happened.

 

The mere fact that you are not having this discussion with your man and instead are having strangers help you speculate and decide should be a huge warning sign for you that you are not at the engagement and marriage stage of the relationship, let alone baby making stage. When you are planning to get engaged to a man you are at a point where you can discuss these things freely and openly without hesitation or reservations.

 

I wish you all the best and hope your dream does come true.

 

My 2 cents. ;-)

[sc0316]

I didn't get that impression . My impression is that she doesn't want to end up carrying all the burden by herself because she has an irresponsible partner who is taking advantage. I know exactly what she means . That situation is not pretty and will end up in serious problems if it happens. It's better avoided.

 

This is just my impression based on the fact that her bf still pays for most of their dating expenses. I can understand that the bf should be expected to pay during the early courting stage, but they are already in a serious relationship. If I know my bf doesn't have that much extra cash to spare, I'd feel bad to let him take up a disproportional share of our dating expenses. But this is just a matter of personal style and preference, there is no right or wrong approach.

[lil_missy]

Venus, I think you need to decide if a bad financial situation is a deal breaker for you and if it is, exactly how bad does it have to be to be a deal breaker? Is no savings but semi steady income ok? What if there's 50k debt? Is he paying his debts off or still accruing more debt as we speak? Then go talk to him and find out if he meets your standard or not.

 

I asked my fiancé the hard financial questions 9 months into our relationship when he proposed to me, if you two are considering marriage then it is time to lay all cards on the table. It is not too early as some people are saying.

 

I suspect that his financial situation is worse than anything you've seen so far. It always is as they try to impress you when they are dating you. But it is not necessarily the end, My fiancé's Financial situation was far worse than what he led me to believe but it wasn't a deal breaker for me as I see lots of potential in him and believe in our future.

 

Until you find out, there is nothing more to talk about as we have no new information.

[No_Go]

Yeah you can never be sure... I've heard of the term 'pacifier' used for engagement ring bought with no intent of actual wedding in the foreseeable future (I have a friend that is engaged from 3 years and counting).

 

However if you have track record Ike you did with your BF (knowing him from a long time, seeing him day to day at work etc), that's a measured risk. Disclosing to someone that you know just from long distance is in a different ballpark.

 

My ex...He turned to have a series of relationships where he used the women for money. We broke up Jan 2014, Apr 2016 his next victim/GF called me to ask what to do - he stringed her financially AND assaulted her. Hope she succeeds in suing him. He's obviously just a conartist and I fell for him because 1) he was good at his game 2) I was very lonely after a family death. I'm just saying these two made me blind for obvious screaming red flags.

 

I think in your case finances commingled so much that full disclosure was the only reasonable choice, in Venus case only shared expenses are travel costs- so that's why I think it is better seeing how he is short distance and/or getting engaged first (engagements are easily reversible, so no huge deal).

 

But - debt and credit should be talked about if they plan joined purchases in the near future and/or getting married in the near future. I hope I'm wrong but I don't see any of these coming soon... There is a long path to go there, hope they stay strong and make it.

 

Ah, and for retirement - I'm a millennial as well (I think, '84?) and absolutely do plan to retire, from what I've read we're in similar financial situation, so I think it's realistic in your case as well (especially with your savvy planning ahead:P)

 

Very good point. Plenty of men string engagement talks along for months or even years, or they buy a ring and never actually intend to propose. You can never be fully sure, can you? I think the question comes down to a matter of trust. I trust my boyfriend with my life and he has always been completely true to his word, no matter how big or small. It's never occurred to me not to trust him. But part of that is because we met as colleagues in an incredibly stressful situation that required huge amounts of hard work, integrity, discretion, and communication. Would I trust him as much if we hadn't been through that together? I don't know.

 

That's absolutely heinous. I'm so sorry you went through that. I don't know how to respond to something that awful, but if someone is willing to do that to someone they ostensibly love---well, there's not a lot you can do about it but kick them the hell out. I hope you set him on fire. If you didn't I'm willing to do it.

 

Before I agreed to move in. We decided I would move in with him for a couple months and he would shoulder all the rent and bills while I saved up money for a down payment on a house. It was very helpful to know exactly how much money we had and where it was going, including how much I was socking away each month for mutual funds. I saved up enough to not only finish off the down payment but also give him a couple grand to polish off what little was left of his student loans. We show each other our statements at the end of every month. The only exception is the ring---I don't know exactly how much he spent on it because he picked out the diamond himself, but I have a ballpark figure and I'm relieved it's within our budget. Don't get me wrong, we don't always agree, but we've never once tried to take advantage of each other financially. He makes more money than I do but we try to contribute as equals as much as possible.

 

I'm not sure if we would have wanted or needed this level of transparency if we were just sharing an apartment. Probably not. That being said, if my boyfriend had given indicators of major problems the way Venus's man has, I would probably want to know as much as possible about his finances. Personally I'm not very uptight about my retirement and investment numbers. I'm a millenial; you really think I'm ever going to retire? The earth will have crashed into the sun long before then.

 

I don't know how Venus can come to trust this guy any more than she does already. (Tangentially, I agree it's way too soon for them to be discussing engagement, but that's Venus's call, not mine.) So long as they're still long distance much of the relationship is theoretical. I don't have any experience in translating long-distance talk to a steady, reliable relationship, but to some extent that doesn't matter, does it? As you know, even a day-to-day relationship doesn't guarantee anything. Either someone has the integrity to make good on their word and provide or they don't. I'd like to think this guy isn't lacking in integrity at all; the question for me is whether he has the means and resources to provide what Venus needs.

[lana-banana]

Oh, I still contribute 15% to my 401k; I just have no expectation of ever seeing that money.

 

Your ex is one of the few people I've read about here who's a legitimately sociopathic danger. I remember when you first posted the update from his girlfriend and it scared the crap out of me. (Have you considered selling the story to Lifetime?) That would put anyone on edge for the rest of their lives. I agree it's good to keep a lid on that kind of information unless you know you're sure you're going to pull the trigger. In this thread Venus has gone back and forth---saying she's serious about marriage and that needs to be the next step to move things forward, but it's also not serious enough for her to ask those kinds of questions.

 

Folks on this thread are probably right that I want more transparency than is necessary, especially for Venus's situation. But I still think more rather than less is better. If the guy had shown himself to be perfectly responsible, a vague outline of debts and credit limits would be fine. But he's shown so many red flags that hard numbers would mean a lot. My fear is he's going to say "Yeah, I have a couple debts, but they're no big deal" and still leave Venus in the dark. lil_missy may be right: it could be much worse than Venus realizes. Think of it like a health issue. If the doctor says you've got the signs and symptoms of some type of condition, you want as much information as possible so you know how to take care of it, right?

Edited August 5, 2016 by lana-banana

[BluEyeL]

Of course not everyone has to discuss retirement. We do because we are 44 and 51. Venus has other priorities now , marriage, children , maybe home ownership....

 

I still think it's premature for the in depth money disclosure and the issue at hand is that they need more time together to build up the relationship up to the point where such disclosure will become simply natural .

 

The way I see it there are two things:

 

1. Venus wants to get married and it's a goal she really wants to achieve. In the past she had problems with men not willing to commit to a boyfriend status, let alone marriage.

 

2. Venus is in danger to let her desire to marry come before evaluating this man's suitability for marriage. It's very dangerous to just take the first man who seems that would agree to marriage (not clear if this one would anyway, he only insists on living together ) . It's not about him wanting to get married or not only but about whether or not she ahold marry this particular man. The problem with this evaluation is that they are too far from each other and see each other to seldom. This is why some of us suggested a temporary move there. To ensure more time together, more direct interactions and her ability to see if she should spend more time with him up to the point where marriage is in the works or she should bail and find someone who wants to get married to her and is also the right man for such a commitment.

[Grisho]

Some debt is great to have. Debt in itself is not a negative thing. All depends on what it is and how it's being managed (ie the actual cost of the debt). For example, having a credit card isn't a problem, so long as someone regularly clears the balance before there are penalties. Having a student loan isn't a problem, if the interest rate is low, and there's no penalty for small repayments over a long period of time.

 

The amount of info Lana wants is too much, in my opinion. It is intrusive. I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing that info about my own finances, so wouldn't expect it of my partner. I certainly would not ever be printing copies of anything to give to my partner, and wouldn't want them to be given to me. I trust what he tells me, and he must trust what I tell him.

 

I am also an advocate of keeping separate finances, and contributing agreed amounts to joint accounts for joint expenditure.

 

I think it's fine to have (and give) a factual idea like this:

-Earns around x

-Gets a bonus in December that is between 3 and 10% of earnings

-Has a credit card, and regularly pays off the balance

-Pays for everything via credit card, except for token things like parking meters

-Owns a car worth around x

-Rents a house for around x per month

-Has student debt of around x

-Has been saving a couple of years for a deposit on a house, and hopes to buy a house next year

-Has a pension

-Usually saves about 20% of earnings over the year

[Sunkissedpatio]

Some debt is great to have. Debt in itself is not a negative thing. All depends on what it is and how it's being managed (ie the actual cost of the debt). For example, having a credit card isn't a problem, so long as someone regularly clears the balance before there are penalties. Having a student loan isn't a problem, if the interest rate is low, and there's no penalty for small repayments over a long period of time.

 

The amount of info Lana wants is too much, in my opinion. It is intrusive. I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing that info about my own finances, so wouldn't expect it of my partner. I certainly would not ever be printing copies of anything to give to my partner, and wouldn't want them to be given to me. I trust what he tells me, and he must trust what I tell him.

 

I am also an advocate of keeping separate finances, and contributing agreed amounts to joint accounts for joint expenditure.

 

 

SO agreed! I wouldn't want that either and wouldn't want to be the man at 7 months in a long distance relationship with a woman I haven't even decided where we will live yet, let alone if I am going to ask to marry to expect me to exchange printed bank/investment statements. Byeeee!

 

Good luck finding someone in that situation who is comfortable with that. If I were the man being requested of that I would run the other way. Very intrusive relative to the point of the relationship.

 

Ex-fiance wanted a joint account pretty much since we moved in together. I did not want to do that until we were actually married and even then wasn't sure I wanted a full joint account and while we both had good incomes he made more than I did in his executive job and I didn't see the need to combine everything before we were married.

 

We had the full finances disclosure talk after he proposed and as we started planning the wedding. While we didn't print statements for each other I trusted his finances were in order and the same vice versa. And we were dealt enough hardships to overcome over the course of year regarding his work situation that we actually got to live out the constraints induced by financial hardships and learned a lot about each other. Much more than you would if you print bank statements.

 

If someone wants to hide something they can and will. Credit scores/reports reveal it all. But to ask a person you have been with for 7 months in an LDR for a proverbial "criminal check" is insane.

 

Ease up on the finance talk and try the relationship day-to-day in the same city first and see what his actions tell you, is what I would do. Give yourself a time limit of how long you wish to devote to this relationship, and if you don't see what you need to within that time frame then be ready to move on. A year in the grand scheme of things is not a long time and you can learn a lot about a person in a relationship in a year. What you've seen in spurts in an LDR is not enough to make a judgment either way.

 

My ex knew from the get-go I would not live with anyone unless I plan on marrying them again. We moved in and a few months after that he lost his job and this set our plans back. But he got a big settlement from the wrongful dismissal case a year later and that is when he proposed. It would have happened sooner had he not lost his job. I wanted him to hold off since it made no sense to buy an expensive ring (not my asking but his doing because he was really caught up in buying expensive sht..) when his job future was still in question. He wasn't the best with saving money but then again he was also debt free. Guess you could say I was the "saver" in the relationship but our dynamic worked.

 

Point being, yes past actions are predictive of future ones, and you should definitely take note of whatever warning signs you have seen so far but you can also create a healthy dynamic together.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Sunkissedpatio

[Grisho]

While we didn't print statements for each other I trusted his finances were in order and the same vice versa. And we were dealt enough hardships to overcome over the course of year regarding his work situation that we actually got to live out the constraints induced by financial hardships and learned a lot about each other. Much more than you would if you print bank statements.

 

You touch on a really important point, that we all need to keep at the forefront of our minds. So much stuff unfolds in life that is unpredictable. No past events or knowledge can help us predict how someone will cope with a job loss, death of someone significant, serious illness, natural disaster... I really believe that the sense of "teamwork" is all that matters sometimes, to cope with whatever good or bad happens in a relationship. The 2 parties have to have the same mentality, to do whatever they can to support and help, even when that means doing something they wouldn't ordinarily do.

 

If someone wants to hide something they can and will. Credit scores/reports reveal it all. But to ask a person you have been with for 7 months in an LDR for a proverbial "criminal check" is insane.

 

Once again, you mention something really important. If a person wants to hide part of their wealth or debt, they can easily do it. Actually, a credit score will only reflect the info it is aware of. It is very easy to hide things, so they never show up on a credit report. Also, keep in mind that plenty of people who rely on cash and their savings for any expenditure, and don't believe in having things on credit, will have a poor credit rating, despite them being responsible with money.

 

A year in the grand scheme of things is not a long time and you can learn a lot about a person in a relationship in a year.

 

The real difficulty all of us women face is that, if we think biological children may be a part of our future (mindful that noone knows what's biologically possible til they try), time becomes very critical over 30. When one doesn't want kids, the passing of an extra year or 2 growing a relationship is of little consequence, but it's so much more consequential when one may want kids, if things don't progress to that point.

[Sunkissedpatio]

 

The real difficulty all of us women face is that, if we think biological children may be a part of our future (mindful that noone knows what's biologically possible til they try), time becomes very critical over 30. When one doesn't want kids, the passing of an extra year or 2 growing a relationship is of little consequence, but it's so much more consequential when one may want kids, if things don't progress to that point.

 

The optics of this relationship seem to me a like a fair part of it is based on fantasy rather than reality. They are dealing with challenges of the distance which may lead them to believe they are familiar with each other's coping mechanisms in dealing with life. And yes it is a fair insight into stress management from both parts but they are so far and removed from the perplexities that plague couples in routine life together in real life that this phase of their relationship is still yet to be determined.

 

When you are seeing each other in "vacation-type" spurts and away from your social circles it's hard to see each other's real characters when there aren't people that know you to make you accountable if you are fabricating a persona. So there is a lot of premature discussion happening on a relationship that still needs a lot of growing to do before it can be at the point of all the things Venus would like.

 

So the question begs to be asked: If Venus is so determined to be married and have kids in the next couple of years because the clock is ticking for her at 30, why in the world would she seek out a relationship with someone in a totally different state/city for an LDR?

 

Fundamentally, that's what doesn't jive for me with this entire picture and really that's all fine that Venus is on a timer to achieve her goals but then perhaps she could have chosen an easier road to get there.

 

Unless of course she was simply unhappy in her life and city and she is looking for a big change in a new place with new experiences, then stop putting the horse before the carriage go experience that new life and this man in full glory.

 

You can't have it all there are always concessions, exponentially so in this type of situation.

 

Venus: write down your must-haves and then figure out what you are willing to barter for that would be my only advice to you at this juncture. The rest you will figure out once you actually cross that bridge.

Edited August 5, 2016 by Sunkissedpatio

[clia]

In long distance situations like this, where one party is going to have to quit their job and move across the country, I think it's fine to ask for more information and proof than you might in a normal, local relationship. It's just a totally different situation, when you haven't been able to observe a person live, operate, and function, in a normal way, on a daily basis. Those observations can tell you so much about a person, and that's the more normal way to figure this stuff out. People can easily lie about their financial situation.

 

I really don't see anything wrong with asking to see some credit card statements, bank statements, or account statements. (With the account number and social security number blocked out would be fine.) I'm not saying he has to show her everything (or she him), but I certainly wouldn't just take someone's word for it that they were all good without some proof in a situation like this. I can't imagine moving cross country and quitting my job if the guy I was moving for refused to share that kind of information. If you are local and find that out, worst case, you break up. But after uprooting your entire life? I wouldn't do that without some assurances. If they are planning to get married, I don't see what the big deal is unless one or the other has something to hide.

[Eighty_nine]

Still keeping up with this thread, but haven't commented because I feel confused, Venus, as to how everything stands now. It honestly sounds like nothing has changed in the last 6 months in terms of where you two stand.

 

I feel like you're all getting ahead of yourselves discussing finances. From how I see it, they're sooo far from making any real commitment that it's almost a moot point. (I will say the one thing I'd want to know early in a relationship is exact figures regarding debt. Everything else can wait til it's really time to crunch numbers and figure out the kind of lifestyle you can afford/want).

 

Everything you say in terms of moving, engagement, marriage and children seems really vague to me. It seems you still aren't really talking about it in concrete terms. I can't tell if it's you or him who is avoiding making *real* plans.

 

I, for one, think taking a month trip there like you mentioned is the best possible thing you can do at this point. I understand why you want to renew your lease. And I still think you should move there because he has children in NOLA, that kind of outweighs anything else, even if they are adults. To me it's unreasonable for him to move to you. Anyway, if you were to stay there for a month you would have a real idea about his lifestyle, spending, your compatibility, and your feelings for him. I actually think this is a REALLY good idea. I have a feeling that if you don't do this, 6 mos from now you'll still be posting almost the same updates... not really updates, because nothing has progressed! And that would be fine if you were really OK with it, but I think that's really not what you want. I think you really want to be all in or be out.

[venusishername]

If I am understanding this correctly you have been long distance with this guy for 7 months approx.? Before you even entrain any talks of finances, which to me it is preposterous to claim full disclosure at this juncture and I would NEVER print out my finances and expect the same from a man I'm dating for 7 months, in an LDR, with no ring or open plans for marriage… and my gosh no concrete plans on where to live together?

 

No, this is not exactly right, but close I guess. Long distance since we met, 10 months ago now, and I am 32, not 30. Wish I was!

No concrete plans on where to live together unless you count his place that he has repeatedly offered me to move in with him. I'm not doing that unless we're getting married, so that's moot, isn't it? I have my own place, we need to live in the same city if this is going to proceed and succeed. He is now talking more and more about finding work here and moving here so I don't have to make sacrifices and move. But he has made it clear that his door is open.

 

Baby talk and finances talk is REALLY premature here. If you want to go see what this man is about and you can afford to uproot to do that, (by afford I don’t mean $$ I mean the big picture) then do it!! But go into it with a lot less pressure on yourself and your poor guy. I get it is a HUGE step but you cannot put all these pressures for proof of all these things that never happened.

This is totally fair. You are right. I need to be more sure until I give up my good job and home though. That's why I like the idea of him coming here first, which he is open to and looking into.

 

The mere fact that you are not having this discussion with your man and instead are having strangers help you speculate and decide should be a huge warning sign for you that you are not at the engagement and marriage stage of the relationship, let alone baby making stage. When you are planning to get engaged to a man you are at a point where you can discuss these things freely and openly without hesitation or reservations.

I'm not relying on strangers here to help me decide. I was posting updates and writing as a journal and am responding to all these comments. I can talk to him about all this. As far as the money details, I don't agree that we are in any position to discuss the brass tacks, UNLESS we were living together, getting married, actually SERIOUSLY combining our incomes or making joint purchases and saving together. It's too soon and premature to do what Lana did with her guy. But to have a general picture, is fine and I am getting more info from him as trust builds, and vice versa.

So the question begs to be asked: If Venus is so determined to be married and have kids in the next couple of years because the clock is ticking for her at 30, why in the world would she seek out a relationship with someone in a totally different state/city for an LDR?

32. Why in the world? Good question. But I didn't succeed with all the men I've dated in my city. So I chose to go with someone who loves me and has pursued me from day one.

 

Fundamentally, that's what doesn't jive for me with this entire picture and really that's all fine that Venus is on a timer to achieve her goals but then perhaps she could have chosen an easier road to get there.

Well that sure would have been nice!! But we can't choose who we fall in love with. I didn't want to meet someone and fall in love with someone who lived across the country. That was not part of my plan. But I have some relationship anxieties and I think maybe LDR was good for me to ease back into it again.

stop putting the horse before the carriage go experience that new life and this man in full glory.

You know what, screw it, you are right. I'm done speculating and ready to take it to the next level. I'm spinning my wheels.

 

 

 

Still keeping up with this thread, but haven't commented because I feel confused, Venus, as to how everything stands now. It honestly sounds like nothing has changed in the last 6 months in terms of where you two stand.

Lissvarna, how much could have changed in 6 months? He asked me to move in, we are discussing marriage and things we want and I think things are progressing. I'm the one holding it up since I won't take his offer.

 

Everything you say in terms of moving, engagement, marriage and children seems really vague to me. It seems you still aren't really talking about it in concrete terms. I can't tell if it's you or him who is avoiding making *real* plans.

Well, I think it is me. I won't move in with him. I don't want to leave my job and my place, or am struggling with that move. That's why recently he has stepped in and said he will do it, is looking, etc. But you're right, no concrete plans have been made, only seriously discussed. Which is a step in the right direction, right? I'm just getting cold feet.

 

I think you really want to be all in or be out.

Absolutely. That's it.

[No_Go]

Hah, just to mention my ex was also blurting about marriage/kids (part of the strategy?) and in his string of gfs/victims, all women were highly educated professionals ... Just there is no guarantee one will not encounter a man/woman like this. I'd consider Lifetime but I'm very scared about keeping anonymity, this person was legitimately sociopatic and I'm scared of him.

 

I still believe Venus and her BF are thinking/talking about marriage, but not ready yet to do full financial (or health, or any) disclosures. The steps would be shorten the distance, spend time alone in regular days (not holidays - that creates a vacation spirit), evaluate compatibility, then start saving for ring/wedding (or just decide to elope, I wonder since when ring/wedding become a necessity... tens of thousands that can be used e.g. for the future kid), and do disclosures at that stage. If he's vague at that time - I'd absolutely agree with you - she'll need to see things on paper. But there is a lot of water to flow by that time.

 

Oh, I still contribute 15% to my 401k; I just have no expectation of ever seeing that money.

 

Your ex is one of the few people I've read about here who's a legitimately sociopathic danger. I remember when you first posted the update from his girlfriend and it scared the crap out of me. (Have you considered selling the story to Lifetime?) That would put anyone on edge for the rest of their lives. I agree it's good to keep a lid on that kind of information unless you know you're sure you're going to pull the trigger. In this thread Venus has gone back and forth---saying she's serious about marriage and that needs to be the next step to move things forward, but it's also not serious enough for her to ask those kinds of questions.

 

Folks on this thread are probably right that I want more transparency than is necessary, especially for Venus's situation. But I still think more rather than less is better. If the guy had shown himself to be perfectly responsible, a vague outline of debts and credit limits would be fine. But he's shown so many red flags that hard numbers would mean a lot. My fear is he's going to say "Yeah, I have a couple debts, but they're no big deal" and still leave Venus in the dark. lil_missy may be right: it could be much worse than Venus realizes. Think of it like a health issue. If the doctor says you've got the signs and symptoms of some type of condition, you want as much information as possible so you know how to take care of it, right?

[No_Go]

Venus - just an idea - ask him about the relationship with his ex wife. Did they live together first? How long did it take to take the steps (engagement, marriage, moving in etc)? Why it didn't work out? Don't make it sound like an interview,but this will tell you a lot about his vision about relationship progression.

 

Another thing to consider: how are his kids going to rect if he moves to CA? Do you have established a good connection with them? I just can imagine a rebellious teenager confronting his/her dad plans if they are against him moving, even for short term. I don't know how to avoid that but it is probably goo to make sure it is not an issue sooner rather than later.

 

 

No, this is not exactly right, but close I guess. Long distance since we met, 10 months ago now, and I am 32, not 30. Wish I was!

No concrete plans on where to live together unless you count his place that he has repeatedly offered me to move in with him. I'm not doing that unless we're getting married, so that's moot, isn't it? I have my own place, we need to live in the same city if this is going to proceed and succeed. He is now talking more and more about finding work here and moving here so I don't have to make sacrifices and move. But he has made it clear that his door is open.

 

 

This is totally fair. You are right. I need to be more sure until I give up my good job and home though. That's why I like the idea of him coming here first, which he is open to and looking into.

 

 

I'm not relying on strangers here to help me decide. I was posting updates and writing as a journal and am responding to all these comments. I can talk to him about all this. As far as the money details, I don't agree that we are in any position to discuss the brass tacks, UNLESS we were living together, getting married, actually SERIOUSLY combining our incomes or making joint purchases and saving together. It's too soon and premature to do what Lana did with her guy. But to have a general picture, is fine and I am getting more info from him as trust builds, and vice versa.

32. Why in the world? Good question. But I didn't succeed with all the men I've dated in my city. So I chose to go with someone who loves me and has pursued me from day one.

 

 

Well that sure would have been nice!! But we can't choose who we fall in love with. I didn't want to meet someone and fall in love with someone who lived across the country. That was not part of my plan. But I have some relationship anxieties and I think maybe LDR was good for me to ease back into it again.

 

You know what, screw it, you are right. I'm done speculating and ready to take it to the next level. I'm spinning my wheels.

 

 

 

 

Lissvarna, how much could have changed in 6 months? He asked me to move in, we are discussing marriage and things we want and I think things are progressing. I'm the one holding it up since I won't take his offer.

 

 

Well, I think it is me. I won't move in with him. I don't want to leave my job and my place, or am struggling with that move. That's why recently he has stepped in and said he will do it, is looking, etc. But you're right, no concrete plans have been made, only seriously discussed. Which is a step in the right direction, right? I'm just getting cold feet.

 

Absolutely. That's it.

[lana-banana]

Much of the disagreement here is because we all see your relationship very differently. I've been operating under the assumption that your engagement is more or less imminent, based on your past updates*; other posters think all that is entirely speculative and you're still in the getting-to-know-you phase. It's strange that we can't even agree where you are in this relationship, or where you should be. But I would have to admit recently we've seen a lot of talk and vague ideas for how the future might look without any concrete moves towards making it happen. So maybe you guys really have a lot longer to go than you originally anticipated.

 

I agree you both need to act. But how are you going to take it to the next level if you plan to renew your lease? Have you told him you plan to stay put? What did he say?

 

* = not saying I think this is wise, because I don't. But Venus can make her own choices about what she wants, and she's reiterated she expects to be engaged sooner rather than later.

Edited August 5, 2016 by lana-banana