When it rains it pours

[Eighty_nine]

Much of the disagreement here is because we all see your relationship very differently. I've been operating under the assumption that your engagement is more or less imminent, based on your past updates*; other posters think all that is entirely speculative and you're still in the getting-to-know-you phase.

 

It's true. So I'm wondering which one of these is more accurate in your mind, Venus?

 

I say not much has changed because it seems like for several months (OK, maybe not 6) you've been talking about the same things. He'd like you to move in, you won't. He knows you need engagement, but isn't ready. You both seem to talk in circles a bit around issues instead of directly. This is why to me it seems like very little progress has been made. Just my perception, of course.

[Kamille]

The only reason you should bring up finance with you boyfriend is because this has been holding your back in the relationship for quite some time now. (I think it first cropped up last February?)

 

Relationship rule #1: If you have an issue with someone that keeps bugging you, talk about it. I'm not saying specific brass tacks but the following is just smart: "Hey, I'm wondering if we could talk budget and financial futures before we make a decision about moving together". This information could even help you figure out where to move. You say your area is expensive. Can he even afford to move there?

 

And Venus, you asked what happens if you don't like what you hear when you find out the info... You also say you don't think you will like the info. I find that odd. I find it odd that you would rather not ask, not have the info, stay in the weird limbo you've created where you constantly end up putting your relationship on the line, constantly find yourself stalled, not moving forward. I would want to figure that **** out in your shoes.

 

You also say you love him. You've also mentioned you don't care about having children (is that true? Are you 100% sure about that?) Well, I'm a romantic. And like I said, everyone can learn to be better with money. Plus money is money and is best approached without emotional entanglements. If you think his spending-debt load is problematic then you talk to him about it, and you figure it out together. But what you want to do is stop putting your relationship on the line based on something upon which you currently know very little.

 

Ask him. Figure it out. Stop guessing. Stop putting your relationship on the line. Move forward.

[sc0316]

Hah, just to mention my ex was also blurting about marriage/kids (part of the strategy?) and in his string of gfs/victims, all women were highly educated professionals ...

 

Was he a smooth talker or something, and excessively charming and attentive (and good looking) at the beginning? Was he highly educated himself, or did he just target highly educated professional women to provide for him?

[No_Go]

Was he a smooth talker or something, and excessively charming and attentive (and good looking) at the beginning? Was he highly educated himself, or did he just target highly educated professional women to provide for him?

 

Extremely aggressive in the first weeks - e.g. talking how we're soulmates, best match etc. Excessively charming indeed, but the thing that was overwhelming was his constant presence/attention. He'd match to my behaviors - e.g. if I say I want to stay late in the lab, he'll say he wants too and will come over just being there. Thinking back I should have run right then.

 

He was a college dropout, all his exes (and the women after me) were MDs, PhDs, tech business owners - you get the picture. He said he just likes this type of women for the conversation I think he specifically looked for earning potential AND nerdiness/bad social circle (recently moved to town etc, recently divorced etc). Now I know why.

 

P.S. He married his ex wife after 3-4 months relationship part long distance ... That's where being romantic vs being sociopathic can blur

Edited August 5, 2016 by No_Go

[SleeplessIn]

Something I don't recall being mentioned, but think should be:

 

If Venus moves to her boyfriend, she gives up her job and where she is living, and may or may not find an equivalent job and equivalent salary in New Orleans -- if things happen to not work out and she wants to move back to CA, she won't land back there in the same lovely job and apartment she now has and may not find that level of comfort and stability again or find it very soon.

 

However, if her boyfriend moves to her, as a member of a union he only has to qualify and register with that union in CA and he'll be on the list for jobs right away at a pay level about the same as what he left behind -- and, if things don't work out, he has a house to go back to in New Orleans and can get back on the union there where he and his work are known, which facilitates jobs for him.

 

Seems like this perceived difference in between them in what would be given up ought to be part of the thinking here when considering who should make the move at least in terms of spending X number of months to get to know each other better on a day-by-day basis.

[Grisho]

I don't think the only option is to move for either one of them right now. I spend 2 weeks with my long-distance boyfriend when we have visits. This couple has never been together in person even 2 complete weeks. If unpaid time off is an option for parties in long-distance relationships, it has to be considered seriously as a means for the couple to be together for longer periods of time.

 

 

Self-employed people or short-term contracting workers may be able to take an unpaid extended break from employment, or have time off between jobs.

 

 

 

Both Venus and this man could rent out their existing living space, to cover costs whilst they are away. Noone has to give-up their accommodation in the immediate term.

 

 

 

Permanent employees may be able to take an unpaid sabbatical.

There are lots of things to consider besides this. Venus' boyfriend has kids. That should be their highest priority, when it comes to planning visits and anything longer-term/more serious.

 

 

As for long-term living together... Some things that are influential in my situation, just to illustrate how more complex and nuanced long-distance living arrangements are than lots of people here think:

 

 

1. If I travel to where he is, I have to organise accommodation, as he isn't allowed visitors in the shared accommodation organised through his employer. Conversely, if he travels to where I am, he can stay at my place.

 

POSSIBLE CONCLUSION: HIM TO MOVE HERE

 

 

2. My boyfriend works in the public sector; his work is tied to his location, and he doesn't have a decent command of any languages other than his mother tongue. He couldn't work anywhere where his mother tongue isn't the working language. Conversely, I work from any place of my choosing (including home) in international companies, and have a decent command of around 8 languages.

 

POSSIBLE CONCLUSION: ME TO MOVE THERE

 

 

3. Quality of life is exceptionally high where I live, crime is all but non-existent, the economy is stable, and locals are healthy and happy. Conversely, where my boyfriend lives is in a long-term economic downturn, and, whilst it's steeped in a rich, vibrant culture, quality of food and earnings are low, and crime is high.

 

POSSIBLE CONCLUSION: HIM TO MOVE HERE

 

 

4. My boyfriend is very tied to the culture of his birth country and his family, and is out-of-sorts when away from his home country for even just a few days. Conversely, I've happily lived all over the world, finding my feet easily, and could easily do so again and again.

 

POSSIBLE CONCLUSION: ME TO MOVE THERE

 

 

5. I have ran my own home, or lived with a partner, wherever I have lived, over many years. Conversely, my boyfriend has never been responsible for a home.

 

POSSIBLE CONCLUSION: HIM TO MOVE HERE

 

 

Venus, you are absolutely right to think about how you could be together for 1 whole month. Don't rule out a neutral location which might be easiest of all for you both to find work, is all I'd like to remind you, when you are weighing up his location and yours. Also, since neither of you are overflowing with money, rent out your home if you go there for a month or more, and talk to him about doing the same if he goes to where you are.

Edited August 6, 2016 by Grisho

[introverted1]

Frankly, I think Venus needs to do whatever is necessary to clear her head on this topic.

 

One reason there is so much conflicting advice being given is because Venus herself toggles from position to position. At one time, she did state that she wanted a man who could support her while she took time off with a baby. That is no longer current articulated desire but it's not clear (at least, not to me) whether this is because she decided that this is truly not what she wants or if it is because she realises she cannot have it with this man, so has convinced herself that it is no longer desirable. What we think of her desires is unimportant; what is important is that Venus be honest with herself about her wants/needs.

 

Similarly, at one point Venus was adamant that she would either be engaged or the relationship ended by October. Now, that line has blurred. Again, it's not about which position is more reasonable, but whether the driving forces behind the change reflect positive, conscious, decision-making on V's part.

 

V - I see a pattern where you come here to share concerns but then rail against all possible solutions. You'll tell us 5 negative things about your bf, or relay troubling episodes in detail, but when posters respond by telling you that these are significant issues, you back off and defend your bf. There are too many pages to count of this pattern.

 

Someone said that you've made little progress in 6+ months and I would concur. You identify problems, talk about them here, but don't address them in a way that would allow you to close them out. Instead, the "pile" just gets bigger.

 

What techniques are generally successful for you to gain clarity about a situation? Why are you resistant to discussing some of this stuff with your bf? I almost always have a sense of the financial situations of the guys I date (and they of me) - it's pretty organic.

 

Your bf is asking you to move in with him. Do you think you can use his offer as a springboard to a serious conversation about finances, lifestyle, etc.?

 

I think your anxiety will continue to mount if you don't figure out a way to start addressing some of the issues you've observed. Posters here can only respond to what you tell us, but I sense a lot of confusion in you, which is now being reflected in the advice you are receiving. I think it's time for you and your bf to have a serious talk.

[No_Go]

Grisho - in your case i think it is a clear he moves to you, after getting a qualification for a different job first & learning the basics of the language in your country. It will be a bad move to go to lower socioeconomic state place - from experience moving to a richer country goes smoother. May I ask which countries are you at (private message if you prefer)? I've done some moves east to west and can tell you personal experiences.

 

In Venus case - I think it is she moving to him. He'd lose a lot of money if he does the move (unless she can host him for free like he offered), and his kids are major concern, his daughter lives with him for a reason.

[Grisho]

One reason there is so much conflicting advice being given is because Venus herself toggles from position to position.

 

Yes, completely agree, and I think a lot of others feel the burn of this, too.

 

V - I see a pattern where you come here to share concerns but then rail against all possible solutions. You'll tell us 5 negative things about your bf, or relay troubling episodes in detail, but when posters respond by telling you that these are significant issues, you back off and defend your bf.

 

I see this a little bit different. Venus is prone to panic, and spinning in that panic, regardless of whether it's justified or not. She does not actively seek out ways to lessen her panic (eg seeking factual info). She spins in the panic, at the expense of simply and calmly asking her man to clearly explain something to her, which may result in there being no need for panic at all. She always has 1 foot out the door, ready to mistrust, ready to deem him not good enough... I don't feel that posters should be saying things are red flags, because Venus is in panic mode and hasn't sought factual info prior to panic mode setting in.

 

Posters here can only respond to what you tell us, but I sense a lot of confusion in you, which is now being reflected in the advice you are receiving.

 

Yes, completely agree. She does a complete 180 degree turn often, or just doesn't clear up her position. Eg I asked what she knows about his financial position, and what she has shared about her own financial position. If she knows nothing of his financial position, it would help if she'd post that. If she has never shared info about her own financial position, it would help if she'd post that.

[Grisho]

Grisho - in your case i think it is a clear he moves to you, after getting a qualification for a different job first & learning the basics of the language in your country. It will be a bad move to go to lower socioeconomic state place - from experience moving to a richer country goes smoother. May I ask which countries are you at (private message if you prefer)? I've done some moves east to west and can tell you personal experiences.

 

In Venus case - I think it is she moving to him. He'd lose a lot of money if he does the move (unless she can host him for free like he offered), and his kids are major concern, his daughter lives with him for a reason.

 

Thanks very much, No Go. I will drop you a PM. I've lived in loads of countries, as I mentioned above, so moving isn't new to me (but it would be entirely new to my boyfriend), but am always happy to hear someone's story. It could take years for my boyfriend to qualify as something else, and I don't have that time to wait, if I decide I want to try for kids. I am not sure if I do, or do not, want to try for kids, just to be clear. If the kids option was removed, waiting for him wouldn't matter. I'm weighing up Sunkissedpatio's question to Venus (along the lines of why be with someone far away like this, if your goals are marriage and kids soon?). That's a question I need to resolve for myself. 1 of the reasons I love that Venus shares her story, is I always try to learn something from this thread to improve myself/improve my clarity about my life.

 

As an aside, Venus has a flatmate, so her living situation is even more complex than putting him up for free. Venus, do you live in a big flat? Is it an option for 3 people to share it? Would there be enough space? Do you have a friendship with your flatmate, or are you simply people who share a flat? Do you expect your man to get his own accommodation, if he moves to your location?

[venusishername]

Venus is prone to panic, and spinning in that panic, regardless of whether it's justified or not. She does not actively seek out ways to lessen her panic (eg seeking factual info). She spins in the panic, at the expense of simply and calmly asking her man to clearly explain something to her, which may result in there being no need for panic at all. She always has 1 foot out the door, ready to mistrust, ready to deem him not good enough... I don't feel that posters should be saying things are red flags, because Venus is in panic mode and hasn't sought factual info prior to panic mode setting in.

Yes, completely agree. She does a complete 180 degree turn often, or just doesn't clear up her position. Eg I asked what she knows about his financial position, and what she has shared about her own financial position. If she knows nothing of his financial position, it would help if she'd post that. If she has never shared info about her own financial position, it would help if she'd post that.

Grisho, I didn't have a chance to reply to your question on the work days/nights this week because I have been too busy to write. I agree that I am spinning my wheels and prone to panic.

I'm not exactly sure what more I can do than talk to him about the basics, considering he is asking me (and now is discussing making plans himself) to move towards each other.

You are asking me what I know about his financial position. I know the amount he pays in rent, (let's clarify the term 'mortgage', and just say 'rent'). He does not own the house where he lives, but it is in his father's name and my bf pays all the rent, bills, and maintains the entire property, which is a big job. He will inherit the home. He told me the general numbers of the housing expenses recently. He occasionally utilitizes Airbnb for a supplemental income rather than having a permanent roommate. He often does not have anyone there from Airbnb, it is occasional. Also- I told him that if I were to live with him someday, I wouldn't be ok with that, and he said of course not, that he wouldn't want anyone else there so we could have privacy. It's just an occasional thing, for supplemental income to help him pay the housing costs. He has offered to pay for all costs if I move in, but would ask that I contribute to groceries and he would like me to cook. Again, I love to cook, so I would be cooking anyway, and think that is a fair trade. I could be saving a lot of money every month. And he doesn't cook, and spends most of his money going out to eat. Maybe he thinks if I contribute to groceries and cook, then he would be saving money there. Just a guess.

 

 

He has two pensions. I don't know the amounts. He has medical insurance. He owns his car. He seems to be able to afford vacations and trips with me every two months, including half or all of plane tickets. From what I see he lives comfortably, he's just not good about saving money, and he spends it carelessly. However, sometimes I've experienced him telling me that he's on a budget and he doesn't want to eat out that day, or his spending money today (like while on vacation) is x amount of dollars. As far as credit cards, it turns out that he does not have credit card debt that I am aware of. He was using a DEBIT card when it was declined. Knowing his line of work, as an independent contractor, he often gets paid in cash, or is depending on someone's check to clear, and the money didn't go into the bank then, so he spends the cash and then can't use the card for large purchases. That happened in this instance. I am not aware of him "maxing out" his credit card. That was my assumption in the past, and it turns out I was wrong. I didn't know it was a debit card. I've been declined on my debit card before, if trying to make a large purchase, or if I haven't been budgeting.

I am not aware of any particular debts that he has, that is something to ask. He had child support obligations until the kids were 18. To my knowledge, not anymore but he certainly contributes a lot to them now. I see him spend a lot of money on his son. So his kids are a big chunk of expense for him.

 

As for what I've shared with him and to give you all a picture, I gave him a rough estimate of my annual income, that I have a small amount in a CD from an inheritance, I put aside 20% of my income (this is a recent thing) into a savings to either put down on a house payment (WAY OFF IN the future.. I don't make enough money to buy where I live anytime soon), or use that savings for travel, my work offers 401k, which I just qualified for, so now a small percentage of that is going into my retirement fund. I told him how much I pay in rent, and that I have x amount of student loan to pay off, which at this rate will take another 5 years or so.

 

I hope that answers your question, Grisho. Not sure what else needs to be discussed at this juncture, since we are not in the close quarters living situation that Lana was with her boyfriend. If we were actually living together, then yes, I could see sitting down with a pen and paper or spreadsheet to go over budget, savings plans, discussing joint accounts, etc. We're not there.

As an aside, Venus has a flatmate, so her living situation is even more complex than putting him up for free. Venus, do you live in a big flat? Is it an option for 3 people to share it? Would there be enough space? Do you have a friendship with your flatmate, or are you simply people who share a flat? Do you expect your man to get his own accommodation, if he moves to your location?

I live with a roommate because in order for me to save, to pay off my loans, and live comfortably in my city and location, I have to sacrifice having my own place. I have done it but it's gotten too expensive to live here as a single person. I am not close enough friends with my current roommate, and would not ask her to share our living space with my boyfriend. If he wanted to spend a week or so here until he settled into his own place, that would be acceptable, but I'm not open to him living with me, Grisho. My same stance about not living together before knowing we want to get married is the same is if he moves here. So yes, I expect him to get his own accommodations if he moves to me. I'm just really against living with a boyfriend again. It did not work out for me before, and I'm tired of making the same mistakes, so I'm doing something different.

 

 

On another note, Introverted made a point about how it seems I vacillated about being a stay at home mom. Look, it wouldn't be for me. I'm too independent and I just can't see myself as a housewife. You know some women just eat, sleep and breathe these things, I am not one of them. I think I've said it more than once that I would like the option to take 6 months off or so if I have a child, and it would be nice to have the OPTION to work, or maybe it would be nice to have the OPTION to work part time or take a job that pays less and requires less time than I do now. It would just be nice to have that OPTION.

My concern, justified or just me panicking over things I don't know yet, is that I would be the one shouldering the burden and feel resentful that I was the only responsible one. I think BlueEye understands where I'm coming from with this. I don't see that he would let that happen though. Also, I would never want to give up my financial and social independence by living with a man who asked me not to work. I have seen that happen with some of my girlfriends, who appear to be cut out for it, but I would never want that life. I need to make my own money. So although of course it would be nice to marry a millionaire, and never have to worry about money, I would still never be happy as a stay at home mom or depending on a man's income I feel I am more independent than most of the women I've known in my life, and I've been very secure knowing I'm in charge of my own money and where I choose to live.

 

 

On another note, he called me and left a message this morning, and he said he was spending the day with his family for his nephew's birthday party. Someone on here said he doesn't seem like a family man, and kind of a "bohemian" or something like that. Quite the contrary, he is very much a family man if I ever saw one. That is what I want. So important to me, if I have ever seen someone with strong family values, it is him. Particularly because his extended family I met and spent time with is very tight and is the epitome of family values.

He also mentioned something about how he was really looking forward to seeing me in a few weeks there and how we can finally spend some time alone together. No family involved, maybe here and there, but he wants to focus on me. It's not all about spending time with other people, as someone else here suggested.

He said something else indicating that he's going to do whatever he has to do so that we can be in the same city. Recently that's meant to him to try and convince and allure me to move into his house. Then my thought of going there for a month, then over the past few days, he's been talking more about finding work out here. The thing is- he has work and a place to go back to if he leaves. I don't, and he knows that. I would have to start over. I wouldn't be able to rent out my place (legally) while I was gone, plus I would have to clear that with my roommate (which may be changing in October), and I would lose my job. I could find another job but it might take time, plus I'd be stuck paying a huge chunk of rent when I came back with no income.

He could rent his place out, because he has the ability to do so, and with his line of work he is able to transfer, work in multiple states, etc. It seems to me that he actually has more flexibility and security than I do with this.

 

 

In any case, yes, I did originally say that by October, I would reevaluate, as it will be one year by that time. Introverted, that line hasn't blurred yet. We are still in August. And I already know that in a couple weeks we will be talking more about these particular things. To be honest, I already know that he's going to do what he has to do to close the distance, guys. I can tell he will. He already told me he's not going to take my 'no' for an answer. If I won't do it, he will. And I believe him!

[No_Go]

Venus, reading that post for face value, his financial situation is not bad at all.

 

However, something popped up to me: his DEBIT card was declined - this means his bank account was empty/nearly empty. Even if he pays the 'rent' etc cash, this will mean that he lives payment to payment, and as a contractor- interval between payments depends on the season etc.

 

Saying that: if he moves to you and you can't provide for him free accommodation etc, he will be in the red unless he rents his place (this takes time). If you go to him - he'll lose his AirBnB income, and since you dont want to pay rent - he'll probably be on the edge as well. Just things to think about (if he had a solid bank account those won't be considerations, but now they clearly are). I don't think you should wait for him or a high power to set the things, be more proactive instead of leaving it all on him. Chasing is cute but gets old quickly...

 

Grisho, I didn't have a chance to reply to your question on the work days/nights this week because I have been too busy to write. I agree that I am spinning my wheels and prone to panic.

I'm not exactly sure what more I can do than talk to him about the basics, considering he is asking me (and now is discussing making plans himself) to move towards each other.

You are asking me what I know about his financial position. I know the amount he pays in rent, (let's clarify the term 'mortgage', and just say 'rent'). He does not own the house where he lives, but it is in his father's name and my bf pays all the rent, bills, and maintains the entire property, which is a big job. He will inherit the home. He told me the general numbers of the housing expenses recently. He occasionally utilitizes Airbnb for a supplemental income rather than having a permanent roommate. He often does not have anyone there from Airbnb, it is occasional. Also- I told him that if I were to live with him someday, I wouldn't be ok with that, and he said of course not, that he wouldn't want anyone else there so we could have privacy. It's just an occasional thing, for supplemental income to help him pay the housing costs. He has offered to pay for all costs if I move in, but would ask that I contribute to groceries and he would like me to cook. Again, I love to cook, so I would be cooking anyway, and think that is a fair trade. I could be saving a lot of money every month. And he doesn't cook, and spends most of his money going out to eat. Maybe he thinks if I contribute to groceries and cook, then he would be saving money there. Just a guess.

 

 

He has two pensions. I don't know the amounts. He has medical insurance. He owns his car. He seems to be able to afford vacations and trips with me every two months, including half or all of plane tickets. From what I see he lives comfortably, he's just not good about saving money, and he spends it carelessly. However, sometimes I've experienced him telling me that he's on a budget and he doesn't want to eat out that day, or his spending money today (like while on vacation) is x amount of dollars. As far as credit cards, it turns out that he does not have credit card debt that I am aware of. He was using a DEBIT card when it was declined. Knowing his line of work, as an independent contractor, he often gets paid in cash, or is depending on someone's check to clear, and the money didn't go into the bank then, so he spends the cash and then can't use the card for large purchases. That happened in this instance. I am not aware of him "maxing out" his credit card. That was my assumption in the past, and it turns out I was wrong. I didn't know it was a debit card. I've been declined on my debit card before, if trying to make a large purchase, or if I haven't been budgeting.

I am not aware of any particular debts that he has, that is something to ask. He had child support obligations until the kids were 18. To my knowledge, not anymore but he certainly contributes a lot to them now. I see him spend a lot of money on his son. So his kids are a big chunk of expense for him.

 

As for what I've shared with him and to give you all a picture, I gave him a rough estimate of my annual income, that I have a small amount in a CD from an inheritance, I put aside 20% of my income (this is a recent thing) into a savings to either put down on a house payment (WAY OFF IN the future.. I don't make enough money to buy where I live anytime soon), or use that savings for travel, my work offers 401k, which I just qualified for, so now a small percentage of that is going into my retirement fund. I told him how much I pay in rent, and that I have x amount of student loan to pay off, which at this rate will take another 5 years or so.

 

I hope that answers your question, Grisho. Not sure what else needs to be discussed at this juncture, since we are not in the close quarters living situation that Lana was with her boyfriend. If we were actually living together, then yes, I could see sitting down with a pen and paper or spreadsheet to go over budget, savings plans, discussing joint accounts, etc. We're not there.

 

I live with a roommate because in order for me to save, to pay off my loans, and live comfortably in my city and location, I have to sacrifice having my own place. I have done it but it's gotten too expensive to live here as a single person. I am not close enough friends with my current roommate, and would not ask her to share our living space with my boyfriend. If he wanted to spend a week or so here until he settled into his own place, that would be acceptable, but I'm not open to him living with me, Grisho. My same stance about not living together before knowing we want to get married is the same is if he moves here. So yes, I expect him to get his own accommodations if he moves to me. I'm just really against living with a boyfriend again. It did not work out for me before, and I'm tired of making the same mistakes, so I'm doing something different.

 

 

On another note, Introverted made a point about how it seems I vacillated about being a stay at home mom. Look, it wouldn't be for me. I'm too independent and I just can't see myself as a housewife. You know some women just eat, sleep and breathe these things, I am not one of them. I think I've said it more than once that I would like the option to take 6 months off or so if I have a child, and it would be nice to have the OPTION to work, or maybe it would be nice to have the OPTION to work part time or take a job that pays less and requires less time than I do now. It would just be nice to have that OPTION.

My concern, justified or just me panicking over things I don't know yet, is that I would be the one shouldering the burden and feel resentful that I was the only responsible one. I think BlueEye understands where I'm coming from with this. I don't see that he would let that happen though. Also, I would never want to give up my financial and social independence by living with a man who asked me not to work. I have seen that happen with some of my girlfriends, who appear to be cut out for it, but I would never want that life. I need to make my own money. So although of course it would be nice to marry a millionaire, and never have to worry about money, I would still never be happy as a stay at home mom or depending on a man's income I feel I am more independent than most of the women I've known in my life, and I've been very secure knowing I'm in charge of my own money and where I choose to live.

 

 

On another note, he called me and left a message this morning, and he said he was spending the day with his family for his nephew's birthday party. Someone on here said he doesn't seem like a family man, and kind of a "bohemian" or something like that. Quite the contrary, he is very much a family man if I ever saw one. That is what I want. So important to me, if I have ever seen someone with strong family values, it is him. Particularly because his extended family I met and spent time with is very tight and is the epitome of family values.

He also mentioned something about how he was really looking forward to seeing me in a few weeks there and how we can finally spend some time alone together. No family involved, maybe here and there, but he wants to focus on me. It's not all about spending time with other people, as someone else here suggested.

He said something else indicating that he's going to do whatever he has to do so that we can be in the same city. Recently that's meant to him to try and convince and allure me to move into his house. Then my thought of going there for a month, then over the past few days, he's been talking more about finding work out here. The thing is- he has work and a place to go back to if he leaves. I don't, and he knows that. I would have to start over. I wouldn't be able to rent out my place (legally) while I was gone, plus I would have to clear that with my roommate (which may be changing in October), and I would lose my job. I could find another job but it might take time, plus I'd be stuck paying a huge chunk of rent when I came back with no income.

He could rent his place out, because he has the ability to do so, and with his line of work he is able to transfer, work in multiple states, etc. It seems to me that he actually has more flexibility and security than I do with this.

 

 

In any case, yes, I did originally say that by October, I would reevaluate, as it will be one year by that time. Introverted, that line hasn't blurred yet. We are still in August. And I already know that in a couple weeks we will be talking more about these particular things. To be honest, I already know that he's going to do what he has to do to close the distance, guys. I can tell he will. He already told me he's not going to take my 'no' for an answer. If I won't do it, he will. And I believe him!

[venusishername]

Venus, reading that post for face value, his financial situation is not bad at all.

 

However, something popped up to me: his DEBIT card was declined - this means his bank account was empty/nearly empty. Even if he pays the 'rent' etc cash, this will mean that he lives payment to payment, and as a contractor- interval between payments depends on the season etc.

 

Saying that: if he moves to you and you can't provide for him free accommodation etc, he will be in the red unless he rents his place (this takes time). If you go to him - he'll lose his AirBnB income, and since you dont want to pay rent - he'll probably be on the edge as well. Just things to think about (if he had a solid bank account those won't be considerations, but now they clearly are). I don't think you should wait for him or a high power to set the things, be more proactive instead of leaving it all on him. Chasing is cute but gets old quickly...

I never said that I didn't want to pay rent, by the way. He asked me to move in, and offered without me even mentioning it, that all would be covered and I could help contribute to the food, etc. I never asked or expected not to be paying rent. So his offer is pretty enticing, because I'd be saving quite a chunk of money if I moved in with him.

 

 

Here's the deal. He's offering me to move in with him. I don't feel comfortable leaving my job, my place, and going there and being a live-in girlfriend. He knows that. So I thought of an alternative, to test drive it and move there temporarily, which at face value is a good idea, but in my mind I feel I would rather be all in or nothing. However, going there for one month is better than the alternative of continuing on living in separate cities not knowing ho we

[Weezy1973]

Honestly, to me it all just doesn't feel natural. Something is off. Like I said earlier, you seem to be motivated by your age and desire to be married and start having babies, rather than motivated by a deep, natural, intimate connection with this man. You keep saying "we're not there yet" and at the same time you're talking about marriage. More communication is NEVER a bad thing. At no point should you be thinking that it's not time to bring something up. If you're thinking about getting married, literally everything should be on the table.

[Grisho]

Thanks very much, Venus. The recent posts are making things clearer for me, and I appreciate you taking the time to explain things.

 

How do you feel about his financial situation, with the information you now know?

 

Can you please try to clarify the debt question (what debts he has and how significant they are), and also whether he has savings accounts (if yes, does he deposit in them regularly, or is he just storing money in them, and are they significant?

 

I also recommend you clarify a little bit more why his debit card gets declined on any occasion it does. I'm not worried about it at all, but am simply curious. I use a debit card for an account which I maintain with a decent amount of money at all times, and my card can be declined for no other reason than a fraud control on the bank's side is stopping me from using it, as my location or the purchase is unusual for example. I have to call the bank to have it resolved.

 

2 more questions, if I may (again, more curiosity!).

 

You've mentioned a handful of times that staying in his home either for a month or if you move in there will allow you to save money. I am wondering if you can explain your view on the saving of money more. Do you see it as saving money for your own future benefit, irrespective of your man? Do you see it as saving money for both of you to use in the future?

 

Can you explain a typical visit? How many days are full of activities, and how many days are just at home doing boring chores and chatting?

[venusishername]

Here's the rest of my post, it got cut off and I couldn't edit after someone posted after me.

Venus, reading that post for face value, his financial situation is not bad at all.

 

However, something popped up to me: his DEBIT card was declined - this means his bank account was empty/nearly empty. Even if he pays the 'rent' etc cash, this will mean that he lives payment to payment, and as a contractor- interval between payments depends on the season etc.

 

Saying that: if he moves to you and you can't provide for him free accommodation etc, he will be in the red unless he rents his place (this takes time). If you go to him - he'll lose his AirBnB income, and since you dont want to pay rent - he'll probably be on the edge as well. Just things to think about (if he had a solid bank account those won't be considerations, but now they clearly are). I don't think you should wait for him or a high power to set the things, be more proactive instead of leaving it all on him. Chasing is cute but gets old quickly...

I never said that I didn't want to pay rent, by the way. He asked me to move in, and offered without me even mentioning it, that all would be covered and I could help contribute to the food, etc. I never asked or expected not to be paying rent. So his offer is pretty enticing, because I'd be saving quite a chunk of money if I moved in with him.

 

 

Here's the deal. He's offering me to move in with him. I don't feel comfortable leaving my job, my place, and going there and being a live-in girlfriend. He knows that. So I thought of an alternative, to test drive it and move there temporarily, which at face value seems like a good idea, but in my mind I feel I would rather be all in or nothing. However, going there for one month is better than the alternative of continuing on living in separate cities not knowing ho we can work day to day. I am not ready to do that right now, and have to think about renewing my lease in the next month's time. So,I feel if I'm not 100% ready, I shouldn't make any major moves. As I've said, I would have to risk losing my job if I went there.

Over the past week, he seems to have realized that he might be asking me too much to do that, and has said he doesn't think I should have to make so many sacrifices. His solution is that he has recently said that he is looking into work here, as he has said in the beginning, and it wouldn't necessarily be permanent, so he could keep his place back home and then go back to it, but at least he could try and be closer to me. His attitude is- 'If you won't do it, I will.'

But- as of right now we are at a standstill because although we are talking about it, nothing is actually being put into motion yet. I think these are all things we will be talking about in a couple weeks when I go there.

 

 

Some posters earlier said that it's hard to tell if it's really at the level that I've been saying it is, implying that it's something different in my head, or something like that. All I know is that he's asking me to move in with him, we have been talking about marriage, things are serious, and he's trying to find a way to make me feel comfortable with closing the distance. And as he says, if I won't do it, he will. So I think that the talk about getting married is actually legit and not something I'm fantasizing in my head. I mean, we talk every day, we have intimacy despite having a LDR this entire time, it's clearly something substantial and really is serious.

Just yesterday, he was talking to me and mused, "I think you would make a good wife." I laughed and said, 'well, I think I would be too, I don't know, I've never done it before..' and he said that maybe it's time I try something different then! He says that I've been such a great girlfriend, he thinks I'd be a good wife too. He has been talking loosely about engagement and taking things to the next level for several months now, now he's using the word 'wife', so I mean, my point is, we are talking about it and it is a real subject, not something I'm making up or fantasizing. I realize that talk is not action, but I do think at this rate, he will propose. I'm not sure that will happen by October, but it's definitely something he's been thinking about, I can tell. And so have I. That's why I'm getting so wrapped up in all the details evaluating whether or not I think he would make a good husband. That takes time to learn, and I've been processing.

 

 

I'm ok with not making any major moves right this moment, or next month. I told myself I would evaluate where things are in October, at the one year mark. I think the best thing for me to do right now to clear my head and any anxiety is to just 'be' and look forward to talking with him more in a few weeks, in person.

[venusishername]

More communication is NEVER a bad thing. At no point should you be thinking that it's not time to bring something up. If you're thinking about getting married, literally everything should be on the table.

I completely agree. I think that the distance has really been a hindrance to having the frequency of communication about these things. It's harder to do that in a long distance, although I'm not making excuses. And I don't feel shy about bringing things up, I just think maybe some things, for example the serious things, are better left for face to face. But yes, I agree that all should be on the table at this point. I think it is easier said than done, compared to an example like Lana who was moving in with her guy and they sat down and did the finances, etc. I say we haven't gotten there yet, because we are not moving in together yet. We both only have a surface level basic understanding of these things.

 

 

And as for your comment about my motivating factor being getting married and settling down, I mean yes, that is a big part of why I am pursuing a serious relationship in general. Over the past 10 months, I have just been evaluating whether or not I believe he would be a good match for me. Hope that makes sense.

[No_Go]

Ok, I think you're right to wait until you see each other the next time before bringing more serious conversations. This is better done in person.

I think I wrote it in a previous post, but another big consideration about who moves first is how his kids will react. Do they need him on daily basis? Are they financially dependent on him? What is your relationship with them?

 

Here's the rest of my post, it got cut off and I couldn't edit after someone posted after me.

 

I never said that I didn't want to pay rent, by the way. He asked me to move in, and offered without me even mentioning it, that all would be covered and I could help contribute to the food, etc. I never asked or expected not to be paying rent. So his offer is pretty enticing, because I'd be saving quite a chunk of money if I moved in with him.

 

 

Here's the deal. He's offering me to move in with him. I don't feel comfortable leaving my job, my place, and going there and being a live-in girlfriend. He knows that. So I thought of an alternative, to test drive it and move there temporarily, which at face value seems like a good idea, but in my mind I feel I would rather be all in or nothing. However, going there for one month is better than the alternative of continuing on living in separate cities not knowing ho we can work day to day. I am not ready to do that right now, and have to think about renewing my lease in the next month's time. So,I feel if I'm not 100% ready, I shouldn't make any major moves. As I've said, I would have to risk losing my job if I went there.

Over the past week, he seems to have realized that he might be asking me too much to do that, and has said he doesn't think I should have to make so many sacrifices. His solution is that he has recently said that he is looking into work here, as he has said in the beginning, and it wouldn't necessarily be permanent, so he could keep his place back home and then go back to it, but at least he could try and be closer to me. His attitude is- 'If you won't do it, I will.'

But- as of right now we are at a standstill because although we are talking about it, nothing is actually being put into motion yet. I think these are all things we will be talking about in a couple weeks when I go there.

 

 

Some posters earlier said that it's hard to tell if it's really at the level that I've been saying it is, implying that it's something different in my head, or something like that. All I know is that he's asking me to move in with him, we have been talking about marriage, things are serious, and he's trying to find a way to make me feel comfortable with closing the distance. And as he says, if I won't do it, he will. So I think that the talk about getting married is actually legit and not something I'm fantasizing in my head. I mean, we talk every day, we have intimacy despite having a LDR this entire time, it's clearly something substantial and really is serious.

Just yesterday, he was talking to me and mused, "I think you would make a good wife." I laughed and said, 'well, I think I would be too, I don't know, I've never done it before..' and he said that maybe it's time I try something different then! He says that I've been such a great girlfriend, he thinks I'd be a good wife too. He has been talking loosely about engagement and taking things to the next level for several months now, now he's using the word 'wife', so I mean, my point is, we are talking about it and it is a real subject, not something I'm making up or fantasizing. I realize that talk is not action, but I do think at this rate, he will propose. I'm not sure that will happen by October, but it's definitely something he's been thinking about, I can tell. And so have I. That's why I'm getting so wrapped up in all the details evaluating whether or not I think he would make a good husband. That takes time to learn, and I've been processing.

 

 

I'm ok with not making any major moves right this moment, or next month. I told myself I would evaluate where things are in October, at the one year mark. I think the best thing for me to do right now to clear my head and any anxiety is to just 'be' and look forward to talking with him more in a few weeks, in person.

[lana-banana]

Am I understanding correctly that neither of you has credit cards?

[sagamore]

Venus, this guy is equivocating about whether he can afford to have a child with you. You "don't see him" saving up for a ring. You *think* that most of the time he seems to be able to cover his bills right now. What about marriage and childcare expenses? Sounds like there's no wiggle room there. And honestly, it's not just the money that's making him hesitate - I mean, this guy can't keep track of his parking tickets. Organization and consistency are not his strong suits. I don't think he has the bandwidth to take on another child. And he's trying to communicate that to you.

 

The kid thing is a BIG deal...and already I hear you equivocating on how big a deal it would be not to have one of your own. I can't help but feel as though you are mortgaging off your own dreams and visions for the future, just because you're finally being pursued. And I don't know..."he won't take my no for an answer" is not how I would want to describe the dynamic with my prospective DH. You don't seem to have a lot of trust in your own boundaries.

 

This is a heartbreaker, because he seems like he really loves you. You have chemistry. But take it from someone who's been married ten years: compatibility is very, very important. Snoring is the small stuff. Kids, family relationships, financial decision-making - that's the really big, deal-breaking stuff. You're not too old - at all - to give up on a relationship that gives you the sparks (oh god, here comes Leigh) and the compatibility that will leave you happy and secure decades into the future.

 

My two cents.

[venusishername]

Venus, this guy is equivocating about whether he can afford to have a child with you. You "don't see him" saving up for a ring. You *think* that most of the time he seems to be able to cover his bills right now. What about marriage and childcare expenses? Sounds like there's no wiggle room there. And honestly, it's not just the money that's making him hesitate - I mean, this guy can't keep track of his parking tickets. Organization and consistency are not his strong suits. I don't think he has the bandwidth to take on another child. And he's trying to communicate that to you.

 

The kid thing is a BIG deal...and already I hear you equivocating on how big a deal it would be not to have one of your own. I can't help but feel as though you are mortgaging off your own dreams and visions for the future, just because you're finally being pursued. And I don't know..."he won't take my no for an answer" is not how I would want to describe the dynamic with my prospective DH. You don't seem to have a lot of trust in your own boundaries.

 

This is a heartbreaker, because he seems like he really loves you. You have chemistry. But take it from someone who's been married ten years: compatibility is very, very important. Snoring is the small stuff. Kids, family relationships, financial decision-making - that's the really big, deal-breaking stuff. You're not too old - at all - to give up on a relationship that gives you the sparks (oh god, here comes Leigh) and the compatibility that will leave you happy and secure decades into the future.

 

My two cents.

I could not agree with you more, Sagamore, although I'm not totally clear on what you mean by a few statements, I really want to write more later but once again, don't have the time today. This is why I have been so torn. It's not about the amount of debt he may have, or the amount in his pension. It's about his recklessness in spending and an apparent lack of financial stability, that even he uses as an excuse for not being ready to have another child any time soon.

 

We happened to talk about that particular subject last night, and he said (and it's true) - that today, we are both not in a position (namely because we are across the country) to have a child. I agree with him in that I don't want a child TODAY, but I would like to have a child sometime in the next year or so, after getting married. I would definitely like to have a child once I am married. I would be ok with one child, now that I'm 32. The way we left the conversation, he is open and would like to work together towards these future plans with me. He's not saying 'no'. He's saying it needs planning. And he's totally right.

 

He is talking more and more seriously about marriage, I have particularly noticed it more in the past couple weeks. He's said some things lately about making some 'changes' because he is concerned about my future and our future, etc. Things like that.

 

I think his heart is in the right place, and it seems to me that he does really want to make me happy, and be the best and provide, for that matter, and make me happy at all costs.

 

I DO have concerns that we are long-term compatible, as I've told all of you over the past 10 months. Now I have to wonder if it's something that I can just take the risk and find out, or if I should give up now and not bother to find out. He really does want to make me happy.

[lana-banana]

Sagamore, as usual, has a lot of wonderful points, particularly the part about you compromising on your goals because you're so desperate to be married. I also disliked the "he won't take no for an answer" thing. Instead of reaching an agreement and moving forward he's just going to up the ante until you finally give in on your boundaries? That's not exactly romantic.

 

Introverted made a point about how it seems I vacillated about being a stay at home mom. Look, it wouldn't be for me. I'm too independent and I just can't see myself as a housewife. You know some women just eat, sleep and breathe these things, I am not one of them. I think I've said it more than once that I would like the option to take 6 months off or so if I have a child, and it would be nice to have the OPTION to work, or maybe it would be nice to have the OPTION to work part time or take a job that pays less and requires less time than I do now. It would just be nice to have that OPTION.

In the very first post on the very first page of this thread you describe being jealous of your friends who are stay-at-home mothers. Sure, you've also emphasized how interested you are in the option, but I've never once seen you cite your independence as a reason for not wanting to be a stay-at-home mother. Don't get me wrong; I don't think it's a very realistic expectation to have, especially in this day and age, but to me it read like an excuse. And I worry you'll continue to make excuses for why you're compromising your long-term goals.

 

I don't doubt his love for you at all. But I also get the sense he's trying to shoehorn you into a void in his life (he needs someone to help raise his children and take care of the home) and you're so grateful to be desired you're desperate to make that fit, while simultaneously stretching him to fit your own ideals. Now of course everyone does this to some extent. It just seems like the dynamic between you two is increasingly manufactured rather than an organic development. It seems like you're both subconsciously using each other as a means to an end. Are you sure you have the same end in sight?

Edited August 9, 2016 by lana-banana

[venusishername]

How do you feel about his financial situation, with the information you now know?

Well, considering I don't have ALL the information in great detail, I feel concerned that he would sometimes be living paycheck to paycheck and not have a cushion. My biggest concern that I have witnessed is that he isn't organized with his money.

 

You've mentioned a handful of times that staying in his home either for a month or if you move in there will allow you to save money. I am wondering if you can explain your view on the saving of money more. Do you see it as saving money for your own future benefit, irrespective of your man? Do you see it as saving money for both of you to use in the future?

 

Can you explain a typical visit? How many days are full of activities, and how many days are just at home doing boring chores and chatting?

If we did live together, yes, my goal would be to save money independently, and also as a couple. I would never give up my own account(s).

A typical visit when he has come to CA has been vacation mode, and there are days that have been spent with his family here. We have had alone time of course, and have spent lots of time just chatting, cleaning up the house, he fixes things in my house, we sit and have nice meals together (sometimes at home), go on walks, watch the sunset, go swimming. When I have gone there, there is no family occupying our time, so we have a much more romantic and alone time when I go to see him.

The trouble is, we don't spend enough days together to sit around and do the day to day stuff all the time, although I have had a taste of it.

 

I think I wrote it in a previous post, but another big consideration about who moves first is how his kids will react. Do they need him on daily basis? Are they financially dependent on him? What is your relationship with them?

They are both over 21 now. I don't know how his kids would react if he moved. I know that he and his son are extremely close and spend a lot of time together. I just can't see him leaving his kids. I don't know if they are financially dependent on him. His daughter lives with him, so in some part, it would appear that way. She does have a job, but I don't know the details there. He son does not live with him, but my bf spends a lot of money on him, I have already seen that first hand. Not sure if you consider that "financially dependent", but I think in some part, yes, they are.

 

And I don't know..."he won't take my no for an answer" is not how I would want to describe the dynamic with my prospective DH. You don't seem to have a lot of trust in your own boundaries.

Just wanted to comment on this. I took "not taking my no for an answer" as, "if you won't come to me, I will come to you", because that was said in the context of him looking at jobs out here.

 

Instead of reaching an agreement and moving forward he's just going to up the ante until you finally give in on your boundaries? That's not exactly romantic.

Give up on my boundaries? You mean my boundary of not wanting to live together before we are engaged? Do you consider proposing "upping the ante?" Are you suggesting that he would do that only to get me to 'cave in'? I don't see it that way, although if you do, nothing I can say would change that.

 

In the very first post on the very first page of this thread you describe being jealous of your friends who are stay-at-home mothers. Sure, you've also emphasized how interested you are in the option, but I've never once seen you cite your independence as a reason for not wanting to be a stay-at-home mother.

I would like to clarify this, because I think the way I feel about this has been misconstrued. I am not JEALOUS of my friends who are stay at home moms. I AM envious that my friends and family have husbands and a family unit, not that they are stay at home moms. Only a few are, the others work full time. I go home to my cat every day and have never been married. I live with a roommate and I'm in my early 30s. I wanted a husband and family by now. I want that family unit, whether that be just a husband, or husband plus a child.

And I am very certain I have mentioned several times that my independence is the reason that I would not be happy as a stay at home mom. This wouldn't depend on my current boyfriend, this would always be the case. The point is, I don't want to completely depend on anyone else but myself, although I will need and would like to LEAN and rely on my partner to be no less than my equal.

 

It seems like you're both subconsciously using each other as a means to an end. Are you sure you have the same end in sight?

I don't know how to answer this, Lana. It is really hard to say. I think we do have the same end in sight, maybe it is just not what I 'planned' for myself. I do know this- that I have given up on several guys in my life who loved me and who would have been a good husband because I was clinging to this idea of what I thought my life should be like, thinking someone else could provide me happiness. I realize now that was a mistake, and I don't want to repeat it again, and be single anymore. I'm tired of being single, I want to be married and have someone who loves me to come home to. He doesn't have to be perfect, and relationships aren't supposed to be easy either.

 

I can take this chance, or give up. That's where I stand today.

Edited August 10, 2016 by venusishername

[No_Go]

Ok, from all being said, it actually seems like you are sort of equal financially. So at least on that end - there are no problems (it will be if you wanted him to be a provider, but not at all if you'll be 50/50 partners. Plus you have some savings for emergencies like pregnancy). Finances are not a problem here.

 

His kids are adults so they're legally independent of him - so that's not a problem as well.

 

The problems is the location. One of you need to move to work in the city of the other. I think talking about engagement prior to knowing each other on daily basis is precarious and will serve no good. If you move to his city or vice versa and you are in a 50/50 financial arrangement - he'll save enough for a ring and will have the basis to propose (knowing you're a good match for day to day life).

 

Btw if he's marriage-minded, I don't see why the pressure to propose. He told you he will when he's sure. I've seen the following results from pressure tactic:

1) guy says he'll propose but he is 'saving' so drags his feet until he's ready

2) guy buys a ring but waits for the 'right occasion' so drags his feet until he's ready

3) guy proposes but the engagement lasts years I.e. until he's ready

All three are tactics of guys that consider marriage but on their schedule. How is a ring-pacifier going to give you the inner peace to move to him if you don't trust him already? And if you trust him - what's the problem, why the rush towards engagement instead of rush to close the distance?

Edited August 10, 2016 by No_Go

[sc0316]

Venus: If you marry a guy with your EXACT same financial situation, do you think the two of you can afford the lifestyle you want (including, possibly, childcare, saving for a house, etc.)? Do you think he can afford to pay for the majority of your dating expenses while you are dating? Do you think you would judge harshly his financial situation because his savings are close to zero (from what described, you didn't start saving until very recently)?