After 6 years fiancé calls off wedding (update)

[Dobie]

thank you again downtown in interested to know how the person with strong bdp traits acts out the "sense of engulfment" fear ?

 

in her case i assume her paranoia , lack of trust , second guessing her relationship ? Acusations i am manipulative etc etc

[Downtown]

interested to know how the person with strong bdp traits acts out the "sense of engulfment" fear ?

A BPDer usually experiences the engulfment as a feeling of being suffocated or "controlled" by her partner. Her subconscious protects her fragile ego by projecting that feeling onto her partner. The result is that she will believe HE is actually controlling and suffocating her. Moreover, the feeling is so intense she is convinced he MUST be doing something wrong.

 

She therefore "acts out" the situation by creating an argument -- over absolutely nothing at all -- to push him away and give her breathing space. Of course, because the alleged complaint is created subconsciously, she will consciously believe her complaint is valid. This is why BPDers usually believe that the outrageous allegations coming out of their mouths are TRUE. And, when they are arguing the exact opposite a week later, they likely will believe that is true too. This, at least, is my understanding, Dobie.

[Dobie]

Not sure i saw the engulfment side , she would pick arguments so she could sit in her room but she pretty much wanted to be with me all the time (untill her new friends came along ) .

[ktya]

OP,

 

Shes seeing someone else.

 

I had the nearly exact thing happen to me years ago. Was with the girl nearly 9 years, engaged. Suddenly she started acting like your girl. Later i realized she was seeing someone else.

 

Your marriage is over. Sorry man. Dont bend over backwards to please her anymore.

[Dobie]

I don't know its unlikely but not impossible

 

My one has acted like this for years though I.e the bad behaviours I was not dating some sort of perfect women not the post BU stuff .

Edited December 7, 2014 by Dobie

[Dobie]

so she replied to the fact our dogs dead with

 

"in very sorry to hear that, i hope you are ok xx"

 

i responded no i am not "ok" the dog i loved from a pup is dead and he died around strangers , that's on you !

 

downtown

 

im not sure if she devalued me more a case of massive resentment and anger for pretty much anything that frustrated her and paranoia no matter what i did to assuage her that i was going to screw her over .

 

 

 

she was very emotionally intense , almost gripped by her feelings good or bad.

[Itspointless]

so she replied to the fact our dogs dead with

 

"in very sorry to hear that, i hope you are ok xx"

 

i responded no i am not "ok" the dog i loved from a pup is dead and he died around strangers , that's on you !

It is a healthy sign that you are in touch with your anger

[dreamingoftigers]

A BPDer usually experiences the engulfment as a feeling of being suffocated or "controlled" by her partner. Her subconscious protects her fragile ego by projecting that feeling onto her partner. The result is that she will believe HE is actually controlling and suffocating her. Moreover, the feeling is so intense she is convinced he MUST be doing something wrong.

 

She therefore "acts out" the situation by creating an argument -- over absolutely nothing at all -- to push him away and give her breathing space. Of course, because the alleged complaint is created subconsciously, she will consciously believe her complaint is valid. This is why BPDers usually believe that the outrageous allegations coming out of their mouths are TRUE. And, when they are arguing the exact opposite a week later, they likely will believe that is true too. This, at least, is my understanding, Dobie.

 

This is bang-on.

 

Went through this in my youth.

I had BPD and after trauma therapy the symptoms largely died down.

 

Still suffer from intense feelings and get easily frustrated when I am not taking proper care ofmyself. However, I was re-evaluated and no longer qualify as BPD.

 

With BPD, what you feel is REAL and people trying tobreason it out with you only looks like they are trying to control or suppress your feelings.

 

In fact, them having THEIR OWN feelings feels often like a competition.

 

Often they came from homes where they were either suppressed or neglected, causing real issues of being unable to self-soothe or respond to their own feelings.

 

The emotions waver between fear, sadness, anger and elation. Anxiety to the max. Whn you are happy, it is like being high on a drug. When you are sad it is the blackest pit.

 

I would think that EMDR and EFT are probably the only two real therapies thst would habe some instant effectiveness.

 

Sadly, the worst case of BPD I ever knew, I couldn't do much of anything and I knew it.

I still hoped though. I knew almost instantly that she had it because it was like I could feel my emotions being "swirled around" inside me as we talked.

 

I hadn't felt that since I had BPD and often people with BPD go up and down so fast that they can really charm someone and make them feel really bad for them at the same time. It's almost like being emotionally disoriented just by being around them.

 

My feelings aren't the only thing that confirmed it (wouldn't that be hypocritical). Her conversation patterns amd then the way that she kind if mirrored me and sort of coversationally poked around my personal life etc. within MINUTES of meeting me.

 

She had razor-sharp instincts and was also self-destructive.

Later when I asked about being diagnosed with anything she told me about the BPD but of course she "didn't believe it."

 

Tears to laugh to snide remarks to hugs in about 5 minutes. Cycling back and forth.

 

And anytime I became unreadable to her she accused me of rudeness, coldness or judging her. I knew this rodeo too well havung been there myself when younger. I just reassured her that I am a little hard to read sometimes and that I liked her. She'd protest a bit and then be relieved.

 

The main thing I do with anyone BPD is listen. Which, frankly is hard for me to hear sometimes. It reminds me of where I was and the pain I was in.

No one can listen indefinitely. BPD people also feel deep rejection with someone who has boundaries. And healthy people have boundaries. They often come across as very hurt kids. Because that's what they were and couldn't neurologically get past that.

 

That woman became my friend as much as she could be. She died in a fire in April. It was very tragic and I think about her a lot lately because this time last year was when I met her.

[dreamingoftigers]

Lol, that could technically be akin to saying a serial killer isn't bad because they can't feel empathy and regulate their behavior accordingly.

 

Other than that, though, I can appreciate what you are saying.

 

However, nearing my residency in my quest to obtaining my Doctorate in Neuropsych, I can say I have never seen a legitimate example of anyone with BPD being fixed. I have, however, seen countless evidence of the destruction they leave in their wake. It's horrifying.

 

Doctorate in Neuropsych would know that about a third of those with BPD move past it as they get older and are able to process a healthier environment.

 

Those that finish CBT therapy are also highly likely to not relapse.

 

It is rumors and lies like this that keep people with mental illness from seeking help. Especially when BPD people, who are already hyper-sensitive to rejection, receive a diagnosis. Attitudes like this make it akin to a death sentence rather than a treatable disorder.

[dreamingoftigers]

Hi Dobie.

 

I am sorry to see that you are going through so much pain and confusion over your ex.

I wish I would have seen this thread sooner. Its hard to comb through 16 pages on my crappy phone.

 

Being with someone who has BPD or just someone abusive is often totally disorienting.

 

Don't worry about questioning yourself, how you feel, what you were thinking. etc. It takes time to sort those things out and reorient yourself.

[Dobie]

urghh broke NC and text her "are you up" ...

 

what's wrong with me ?? After all she did in like a little boy in need of a hug (pathetic) feel red raw now .

[Itspointless]

urghh broke NC and text her "are you up" ...

 

what's wrong with me ?? After all she did in like a little boy in need of a hug (pathetic) feel red raw now .

There is nothing wrong with you. Our body and brain needs touch and attention to function well. A break-up does also imply a sudden chemical disbalance. Your brain is not accustomed to being alone. It is natural for people to need other people. We are all little kids who have been told that being cared for is something childish. It however Is society that is insane imprinting these kind of mis-attuned thoughts in our brains.

 

Give your body and brain time and be nice for yourself.

[Dobie]

Thanks , I never thought of that

 

Still need to man the f**k up though b***h cut me lose on my bday , took everything left me in the s**t cost me time with my dog before he died and showed no care or empathy ...

 

Comes a point I need to accept this is who she is the real her . she may have fallen out of love but I was still her best pal .. No way to treat people she went out like a bum .

 

I know her and can gurrantee she is sitting there arrogant, hateful and resentful towards me and feeling annoyed I sent her a text .. While enjoying the feeling of control and power which she craves .

 

Last time I break NC.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Dobie

[dreamingoftigers]

Thanks , I never thought of that

 

Still need to man the f**k up though b***h cut me lose on my bday , took everything left me in the s**t cost me time with my dog before he died and showed no care or empathy ...

 

Comes a point I need to accept this is who she is the real her . she may have fallen out of love but I was still her best pal .. No way to treat people she went out like a bum .

 

I know her and can gurrantee she is sitting there arrogant, hateful and resentful towards me and feeling annoyed I sent her a text .. While enjoying the feeling of control and power which she craves .

 

Last time I break NC.

 

If the anger is helping you process all of this, then by all means.....

 

The way that I tend to look at it is childish immaturity and that whereas they notice they may be hurting people (and even themselves) like a school yard bully they will go after your lunch money until they realize that they are sad you won't be friends with them. Yeah they want something from you and from themselves but their emotional self-awareness is so low that they have no idea what it is, figure you do, and figure that you will fix it for them and are just withholding happinness from them.

 

Just not a good choice for a partner.

 

The men I chose during the BPD years were often ones who had trouble connecting to their own feelings. I think thats why they were attracted to me. My grief and elation was almost like a random reward system to them. Somedays they just show up and I am super-duper happy. Other days I am listless and sad so they cuddle me and I am happy again. But eventually it becomes: I want you to cuddle me and say a bunch of nice stuff and engagement ring and "why can't I have this. You always want to make me happy and now you don't? But I feel super-big feelings about you! I always want you to be happy now help me manage being happy like you always do! I can't do this by myself! You don't understand me at all!"

 

Or just something changes and shifts.

The men I was with seemed more interested in helping me manage my feelings than feeling or managing their own. Because hey, if you are busy managing mine, you don't even have to feel yours. It's bound to break at some point. Especially when the one suppressing says "oksy We've spent six hours on your feelings. I don't really like Game of Thrones. That's how I feel about it."

 

And your BPD goes "Wait what. That's my favorite show. Here's 23 reasons why you have to! Are you leaving me because we don't have that in common!?"

[Dobie]

Dreamoftigers,

 

It was always about her feelings hardly ever mine , I'd be the one listening and soothing her for hours never the other way around .

[Radu]

Dobie, you are getting further on the path of dealing with the loss of your relationship.

 

So ... welcome to anger !!!

[Dobie]

She replied to my text this morning "what's up"

 

I want to tell her I want to talk to understand??? how she could do this to go from what we had to all this ugliness , resentment and cruelty in the blink of an eye. But what good would it do to hear how I don't match up or there's some other guy

 

Damm depression and anxiety is high , trying to cope with the little things bit by bit .

 

Big effort to wash up , shave etc but am doing it anyway .

[Radu]

She replied to my text this morning "what's up"

 

I want to tell her I want to talk to understand??? how she could do this to go from what we had to all this ugliness , resentment and cruelty in the blink of an eye. But what good would it do to hear how I don't match up or there's some other guy

In a way you want to punish her.

 

There is no way for that to happen.

The only punishment this ... creature will suffer is when a decade down the line she sees you happy, with your wife, with your kids ... living the dream life while she wallows in despair.

You know her future, Downtown, other posters and even DOT hinted at it.

 

She isn't even a person anymore, it's some form of creature guided by her emotions and whatever happens to her.

She will never be happy because for that to happen you have to take control of your life and make adjustments where needed.

 

This is the beauty of this forum, and what some of the posters have done.

This is what she won't do.

 

You should feel angry because it is a part of the process to get over the relationship, but in the end, try not to feel even pity for her ...

When the thought of her is neutral towards putting bile in your mouth, then you are a better man.

 

Damm depression and anxiety is high , trying to cope with the little things bit by bit .

 

Big effort to wash up , shave etc but am doing it anyway .

It's important that you defeat them.

Not immediately, not right now, but that you are dedicated to defeating them, to wanting them gone ... to making them dissapear.

 

 

PS: The fact that you are writing is a good thing.

I did not see anyone mention this here, but there is a correlation between the strength of the ego the person has that ends up with an abuser in a relationship and the length of the relationship.

Someone with a strong ego and well defined boundaries will not stay for long in a relationship with an abuser, weeks/months [one of Madonna's ex lovers and her ... she's not normal either in the head].

Someone with not as strong grasp on their reality, on how they view the world, on how their boundaries are, 1.5-2yrs and they tend to leave the abuser [bPD's are abusers by default ... though they don't want to].

Someone with a low self-esteem, loooooooong and the abuser is the one who leaves most of the times.

Someone with low self-esteem, with low value [who values himself little] will always put the BPD center stage; and that's what DOT told you that a BPD needs [and fears].

In this situation, the BPD will leave after a looooong time, even 2 decades.

 

What this means is that you are low self-esteem.

So you need to work on that, on increasing your value and your happiness.

Do that, and you will have no problem in finding a good partner.

[Dobie]

Beautiful post radu thank you and yes you hit the nail on the head on all counts bro ..

 

 

I lack confidence ..

 

I feel like I need someone in life . I'm trying to work on mindfulness at the moment being in the moment . Anyone with links or book recomendations for dealing with break ups , depressions , anxiety, low self esteem etc would be very grateful

 

 

I'm watching a lot of Noah elfrinks vids and bought his book which is good.

[Radu]

Treat the relationship with someone like the cherry on the cake, and not the cake itself.

 

Something that brings value to your life, but which is not absolutely 100% needed to bring value to your life [or make you happy].

[Downtown]

You should feel angry because it is a part of the process to get over the relationship.

I agree, Radu. Anger is a protective ego defense when used appropriately because it motivates us to take action to protect ourselves. For excessive caregivers like Dobie and me, our getting in touch with our own anger usually is the only thing enabling us to walk away from the toxic relationship.

 

She isn't even a person anymore, it's some form of creature guided by her emotions and whatever happens to her.

I disagree. A BPDer is no less a person than you and I. You are simply describing the human condition. The truth is that we all are BPDers to some degree. BPD traits are basic human ego defenses that are universal to all mankind. As I mentioned earlier, BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means we all are somewhere are the BPD spectrum.

 

Moreover, all of us change position on that spectrum throughout life, sometimes being low on it and sometimes being near the upper end of the spectrum. BPD thus is not something one "has" or "doesn't have." Rather, it is something we all have to some extent -- and that we have to varying degrees at various points in our lives.

 

During early childhood, for example, we all behave just like a full-blown BPDer because we are unable to regulate our emotions and thus get such intense feelings we do black-white thinking on a 24/7 basis. During our early teens, most of us start behaving like BPDers all over again when struggling with the hormone surge and building a new self identity for our roles outside the home. Similarly, it is common for women to exhibit strong BPD traits when hormones go through the roof during pregnancy or the postpartum period (that can last as long as two years). Further, both men and women may exhibit strong BPD traits when abusing drugs and when experiencing the mid-life change in hormones.

 

In addition, we all are hard wired to shift into black-white thinking -- i.e., a classic BPD behavior -- whenever we are frightened or very angry. For example, when you're in a crosswalk and suddenly see a truck bearing down on you, your mind is only capable of B-W thinking: jump left or jump right. Another example of B-W thinking is SIH's earlier claim that BPDers are "scum" and your claim that they are "creatures, not people." When you have time to cool down, the logical part of your mind doesn't even believe that.

 

Sadly, we all have a tendency to think that way -- categorizing a whole group of hundreds of millions of people as "all bad" -- whenever we get angry. Our intense feelings distort our perception of their intentions. Indeed, most of the population in an entire nation is often seen doing this. In Germany during WWII, for example, most people believed that all Jews were so bad they should be exterminated like insects. What is so horrifying about the German's actions is that it is shameful not for Germany alone but, rather, for all mankind -- because it shows what we all are capable of doing when resorting to B-W thinking.

 

I mention all this because a significant share of BPDers are sufficiently self aware to know they have serious emotional issues and thousands of them end up reading posts in this forum as lurkers or members. I have communicated with over a hundred of these self aware BPDers, some as young as 16. At a time when they are struggling to better understand their own issues, it is important we not kick them in the teeth.

 

The only punishment this ... creature will suffer is when a decade down the line she sees you happy, with your wife, with your kids ... living the dream life while she wallows in despair.

I disagree with this notion that Dobie's Ex is not suffering. If she has strong BPD traits, as Dobie believes, she likely suffers every day. BPD is a very painful disorder and, for this reason, is associated with a very high suicide rate. Because BPDers have a stunted emotional development, they experience such intense feelings that their perceptions of loved ones are frequently distorted -- with the result that they tend to push all loved ones out of their lives even though they don't really intend to. This leaves them feeling very lonely, which is a terrifying feeling for someone having a fragile idea of who she really is.

 

On top of that, a BPDer is filled with self loathing. My advice to Dobie, then, is to allow her to suffer the logical consequences of her bad behavior (that is necessary for her to ever confront her own issues) -- but not to "punish" her in any way. It is simply cruel to add to another person's suffering for no good reason. In this case, the logical consequence is for Dobie to walk away and move on.

 

It's important that you defeat them.

Not in my view. It is wrong to add to a BPDer's misery by trying to punish or "defeat" her. It is important that Dobie stop harming her -- and harming himself as well -- by protecting her from the logical consequences of her own bad behavior. That enabling behavior is harmful to both parties. It is in her best interests -- and in Dobie's best interests -- for her to be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own decisions. Otherwise, she will have no incentive to confront her issues and learn how to manage them.

[dreamingoftigers]

Dreamoftigers,

 

It was always about her feelings hardly ever mine , I'd be the one listening and soothing her for hours never the other way around .

 

That's what I strongly suspected and my overall point.

 

It's a pretty frustrating and unsustainable thing for an LTR

[Dobie]

I just don't see how she is going to learn from this though? She feels/thinks she is justified

She is happy (or she would have reached out to me ) and has moved on .

 

I've been thinking about her past relationships and the only time she was upset was one BF she had for 6 months when he left her for his X - GF and that was because at the time she was having some other problems in her life . All her other BFs she has dumped usually for another guy and shown zero remorse .

Edited December 9, 2014 by Dobie

[Dobie]

That's what I strongly suspected and my overall point.

 

It's a pretty frustrating and unsustainable thing for an LTR

 

Last couple of years at least ... Early stages she was more engaged but it was always "tough love" from her .

[Itspointless]

I just don't see how she is going to learn from this though? She feels/thinks she is justified

She is happy (or she would have reached out to me ) and has moved on .

She perhaps is happy now, but for how long? Even when people feel justified they will notice that few people have remained in their life's. When I think back of the ex 10 years ago - who had strong bpd traits - I remember how there were certain things about her past that she did not want to tell me. I noticed that she was ashamed. See also this: The Relationship Between BPD and Shame I do not doubt that bpd'ers who do not know will eventually notice that few people stick with them.